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The Tea FairySILVER Member
old hand
853 posts
Location: Behind you...


Posted:
Hi all

I've been studying the use of complementary therapies in palliative care for a research project at Uni. I've been looking at how these often clinically unproven therapies are being integrated into conventional medical care for the dying, the reasons for it and the benefits of it e.t.c.

One of the things I've been up to is watching a therapist give reiki treatments to patients. I started talking to the therapist afterwards about the 'energy body' and if she can see it. She says she just feels the energy, but cannot see it.

I personally would like to believe that we each have an aura or 'energy body', but at the same time I don't like buying into things without a healthy dose of scepticism also. So I was wondering what you guys all think...

If anyone also wants to argue for or against auras, or give their personal experiences with 'energy', I'm interested in whatever you guys have to say.

Cheers.

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


DrudwynForget puppy power, Scrappy's just gay
632 posts
Location: Southampton Uni


Posted:
I'm with Jeff on this one, I'm willing to believe if someone could prove it to me. I've got beliefs that I think are true, but I've no way of testing them or showing them to be true and so I do not expect anyone else to believe them. Yes I expect people to be open minded as they are my beliefs, but if I were to say that what I belief was actually true and that everyone who believes otherwise was wrong, then it would be I who were being closeminded.

I'd like to know a little more (excuse me if this has already been mentioned) about auras. Are they skin tight or do they extend several inches away from something? Is it just living beings that have auras? Is it just sentient beings who have auras? Can you see auras through materials? Can you see them in absolute darkness?

Thanks

Spin, bounce, be one with the world, because it is yours to enjoy...


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
 Written by: ben-ja-men



 Written by: jeff(fake)



If anyone is interested. If anyone is at all, just give me a concise description of your claims and we can work from there.



If you are genuinely interested in either proving or disproving ppls claims and are not being a troll then surely you are prepared to do the due diligence to prepare a scientific test? how can you possibly offer a valid insight on how to test for something if you have no understanding/background knowledge of what it is that is being tested? If you are the man of science that you claim you are and where going to do the equivalent to objectively prove or disprove the theory of relativity surely you would do the background reading first?



That's the thing about a proper scientific test ben. I don't need to fully understand the phenomenon in order to determine if it exists or not.



I'm willing to bet few people here understand how general relativity explains gravity, but we can still test that gravity exists. Likewise the theory of relativity make claims about how the stars around the sun should appear during an eclipse. I don't need to understand the theory fully in order to point my telescope at the sun and see if the prediction was correct.



Here's the link again to the scientific method

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


Bek66Future Mrs Pogo
4,728 posts
Location: The wrong place


Posted:
Jeff...I'd like to apologize...I should not have attacked you the way that I did.

You are a scientist...I am a spiritualist...we're not going to agree not matter what...we are at complete opposite ends of the spectrum.

Ia Mania Te Miti

"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin


crowley2BRONZE Member
official hop cutie
272 posts
Location: Uk, Essex, Clacton


Posted:
i would just like to point out because it i keep seeing this being said

I'm willing to believe if someone could prove it to me

over 50% of the earths population believes in a god/higher being yet i haven't seen a shred of proof to there existence.
but yet people belive why?
the question is do you belive in auras? not can u proove auras exsist

The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry pratchett


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
Accepted fyrespirit.



But I am very serious when I say that I am very willing to change my opinion.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
I've been wondering for a while... everyone has to believe in what makes sense to them. It's obviously easier for people who [can, or believe they can, or can through synaesthesia, or whatever,] see auras to believe in them. But where do you draw the line?

If you encourage others to believe in something they can neither see, feel or experience in any other form, should they believe in anything? What seems completely unrealistic to some is normal to others. And yet I've encountered spiritual people who laughed at the idea of a Christian God, or said things like "fxck all Christians", while getting angry if someone laughed at a rune reading.

Now, is that closed-mindedness? And how come the concept of say a virgin birth should be more laughable than that of auras or someone grabbing a couple of painted stones and learning about their future? Or the concept of resurrection and paradise should be made fun of, while karma, rebirth or nirvana are acceptable?

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
 Written by: ben-ja-men



 Written by: robnunchucks



Also with your example of the blind man and the colour red. Yes while he wouldn't be able to visualise it but he could still prove wether or not someone could see the colour red without seeing it him self.



the point was more he would have the knowledge of the colour red but no understanding of it, it carries kind of the same value as wrote learning as while he could discuss at length topics to do with the colour red it would just be symbol manipulation with no attached understanding.







That is true but as jeff said we dont have to understand how something is working to test it exists. Just as the blind man can do a test to see the sighted can see red without any knowlage of the colour himself.



first we must astablish something exists before we can begin to worry about understanding it. In this case we can simply use people who do have understanding. they clame that understanding gives them abilitys people who dont understand lack.so by simply testing the abilitys the understanding gives them we test the underlyeing understanding what ever that may be. This is the very core of sientific method.



For example very very few people understand quantum mechanics a good quote is "if you think you understand quantum mechanics, then you dont understand quantum mechanics" some could argue no one realy understands it. however just because we dont understand whats going on doesn't meen we can't test the predictions it makes. which are insainly accurate ( equivelent to predicting the width of north america down to the width of a human hair ) this leads us to conclude that however baffling and counter intiutive the underlying knowlage that gives us these results it must in some sence be right.



As jeff said just because the sceptical have no ability in the area there examining. Doesn't prevent them from scientificly testing the abilitys of those that do. i'ed also like to join jeff in saying i am willing to change my view if the facts support that i was wrong. infact i would be extatic to find out this was true and if we could prove it it would net everyone involved a nobel prize.
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jo_rhymesSILVER Member
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom


Posted:
I'd quite like to try an experiment with reiki and a thermal imaging camera.

I know that when I use reiki, my hands feel really hot, and I can feel energy flowing out of them. To me, and the recipient, the energy feels hot.
It would be interesting to film it with a camera to see if the temperature does increase.

I am trying to think of a way to investigate auras... hmm..

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
that sounds like a very intresting idea a cheaper and ( if less effective ) preliminary test might be to hold a thermitor while you do it and see if the tempriture changes if this comes up positive then try to get hold of a thermal cam. it might also be intresting to messure things like blood flow into your hands while you do it. i'ed love to see the results smile



on a seperate note i've had a thought the skeptics have talked alot about what it would take to convince them that they are wrong.

Out of intrest what evidence, event, experiment etc would it take to convince the beleavers that they are wrong?
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ben-ja-menGOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia


Posted:
thats very nice jeff did you actually read it?

 Written by: website


"I. The scientific method has four steps
1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.
2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.
.....




see step 1 in your link? you have not observed the phenomena that you propose to test!!! in addition you have no understanding of it hence you can not move on to the second step of formulating the hypothesis. its like asking a 10 year old to be the judge in the supreme court, they wouldnt be able to do the job because they dont have enough experience in the world and understanding about what it is they are being asked to do.

testing easily observable phenomena is one thing, testing claims of perception which is a subjective experience is totally different one. please tell me jeff what is the testing that you propose?

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
you have not observed the phenomena that you propose to test!



lol yes thats very true but you'll note that that is exacly what were trying to do at the moment. Observe the phenomena by testing it only once we've manged to test the phenomina sucesfuly can we move onto the formulation of a hypothesis(understanding). useing the results we colected from our observations. you see the testing comes first then we do the understanding.



what you have pointed out is that so far auras have failed to meet even the first step of the sientific method. What you are suggesting is we formulate a hypothois first (understand) then do the testing which is backwards wink



also its not subjective if we hide someone in a box and see if someone can see there aura. thus determing which box there in. even if the aura reading method is not 100% acurate thats ok we can acount for that, what is important is that they can do consistantly better than random chance. also to we can have control groups of people without powers doing the same experiment to see if theres a diffrence. theres plenty of ways we could do it.
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ben-ja-menGOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia


Posted:
*sigh* if only a small portion of the population claim to be able to see auras (ill just qualify and say that i dont make that claim but do acknowledge having some experiences i cant explain) then if you really want to test it you must first observe it, its a subjective phenomena so to understand it you cant rely on the observations of others hence you must experience it to understand it then once you have observed it first hand you can try to apply scientific method.

in the same way that you couldnt diagnose the cause of a nymphomanics behaviour from what they have done that day you need a deeper apprication.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
im not sure what point your makeing yes we need to test the phenomina thats the first step.



i dont see how the phenomina is in any way subjective, people clame to be able to do things normal people can't. So we get two groups one of normal people one of readers. Get them both to do what the readers say they can under scientific conditions that eliminate the posibility of cheating. Then we simply compair the results if the readers do significantly better than the normal people, we have just observed the phenomina step 1 of the scientific proccess has been met.



then we move onto step two and suggest theorys as to why whats happening is happening.



as you can see step one doens't require us to understand a phenomina just observe it. once we know its there and we haven't just imagined it we go onto trying understand it.



also i would like to point out you proberly could diagnose a nymphomaniac from what they did in a day. realisicly you would want to do it over a longer time scale like a month or several months but if they spend most of the time wanking and haveing sex its a fair bet there a nymphomaiac wink of course a diagnoseis is not equivelent to an observations its more like a hypothis.



in the case of a nyphomanica you would have phenominan (constant wanking and f"king)



and a hypothisis there a nyphomanica



as you can see the obseravtion of the phenomina ( they f$k and wank constantly ) doesn't require us to understand why something is happening just that it is.



we dont look at someone decide if there a nyphomanic or not then find out if they wank and F"k all the time thats backwards
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onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Where auras are concerned, all a scientist has to do is test whether the consequences of the reality of auras are manifested under experimental conditions.



In no way is it necessary for the scientist to have developed an abilty to see them him/herself.



Along the lines of what Jeff asked- can the aura of a human be seen with eyes shut/blindfolded?



If an energy healer says they can, then it's straightforward to test it under experimental conditions.



if the healer says no, then the scientist simply has to come up with another testable consequence of the existence of auras.. and so on, until, they arrive at a consequence that they can agree on.



If it turns out there are no testable consequences of the existence of auras, that differ from the testable consequences of the non-existence of auras, then, again that is a result.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


faith enfireBRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA


Posted:
there is that whole thing that you can prove it is true or prove that it is not true, but not that it is wrong in the experimentation process
there is a fine line i think here

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


Pogo69SILVER Member
there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
3,764 posts
Location: limbo, Australia


Posted:
while I too admire the scientists` amongst us, tenacity in attempting to elicit some tangible, proveable, repeatable evidence of both the existence of auras, and of the ability of others amongst us to `see` them, I`m surprised that until recently in our discussions, we haven`t realised why it is that the scientific/spiritual world are not (yet, at least) able to converge.

those that believe in auras, a spiritual realm, mediums, readings etc... do so on anecdotal evidence alone... they experience things and accept, with a degree of faith, not necessarily because of some esoteric flash of inspiration (`seeing the light` for example), but because, upon investigating these awakening beliefs, they see *repeatable* anecdotal evidence supporting those beliefs.

there is no need for `science` to prove or disprove these things. they just are... it may be that it will never be possible for us to scientifically `prove` the existence of auras and/or our ability to see them. but that doesn`t mean they don`t exist. I, personally, am sceptical of the scientific method for many of the reasons already spelled out. all of what we `know` in science is based on a series of increasingly esoteric, obscure *theories*... which change minute by minute. in fact, science really teaches us more about what we don`t know about the universe around us, than what we do.

finally... some `anecdotal` evidence of something I believe in, that I can`t prove...

I believe that my kids love me. I`m not even sure I can completely and accurately describe and/or define what `love` is.... but I *know* my kids love me and I know I love them and I know it will always be that way.

I don`t need anyone to prove it to me. in fact, it would be counter-productive for anyone to attempt to do so... I think maybe the same could be true for the current topic of discussion?

--pogo (pat) [forever and always]


Bek66Future Mrs Pogo
4,728 posts
Location: The wrong place


Posted:
Bravo!!! Very well said. hug kiss

"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin


BansheeCatBRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada


Posted:
Scientists( and others) still don't even know how much we "see" with our eyes, vs how much we " see" with our mind... The are some interesting experiments looking at this, and even using sound to let blind people" see" forms. We know very little about the brain, the eyes, their relationship, and what it actually means to "see". Surprisingly, light and retinal response are only a small part of how it all works.

Maybe our understanding of auras; seeing, or otherwise experiencing them, is still too small to allow for design of an appropriate experiment using appropriate tools. For example- one I have used before, sorry- We did not "prove" the existence of bacteria until we developed the right tools to see them with- though the effects of their existence where undeniably there the whole time.

But I am all for trying, if that's what people enjoy doing. Investigation is an engaging process and eventually maybe through trial and error we will have enough data to design a useful study of the subject.

And yes, Pogo, I agree with you, there are all sorts of forms of knowing things. Science is just one of many... useful for some questions and not so much for others.

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."


ValuraSILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Posted:
 Written by: jeff(fake)


Well,
If anyone is willing to perform an open minded exploration of auras I would be willing to help.

Simply list exactly what your claims are and we can devise a few simple experimental tests to ascertain their validity. If that goes well we could build a few more in depth ones. If you wish to remain close minded to alternative possibilities that's your choice. If you wish to simply attack me that's your choice as well. If you want to call me close minded, ask yourself whether you really are open to the other possibilities first.



Are you feeling like you have been confronted because of what you believe Jeff?

Welcome to my world dude.

At no stage have I attacked you personally, I have simply stated that I was not willing to undergo your tests. You have stated that this makes me close-minded

I have explained as to why and then done my best to answer any questions that you have. I have also asked you questions in return which you do not even attempt to answer.

So you think Im close minded and I think youre close minded. Great. Lets move on from that now shall we? Cause it must be getting boring for others reading this thread.
There is one question that I do want an answer to.


 Written by: jeff(fake)

"If the follow ups were positive I would apply for Randi's prize, and certainly believe Valura's claim."




 Written by: Valura

Are you saying YOU would apply for PROFIT from MY gift?




So Jeff is that what you are saying?

If that is the case what are you intentions with these tests? Is it to change your opinion or gain money and reputation from them?


 Written by: robnunchucks


ahh busted well spotted I had hoped not to use hop as I figured you might remember the posts unfortunately I couldn't find your surname anywhere so i had to resort to just the stuff on hop biggrin as it was a very old thread I hoped youd forgotten by now if you've got someones full name its allot easier smile

of course its interesting to note I did learn allot about you in reading all your old threads smile

anyways perhaps youd like to show me how its done properly? Id be very interested to see what you can read from me

also if the navigation test is slightly inappropriate what about the curtain test where you detect people behind a curtain by there aura if of course you were aloud to approach and scan the person first before we put behind the curtain would that work?




First offwhat did you hope to gain from pretending to read me? Just wondering.

Plus your statement of of course its interesting to note I did learn allot about you in reading all your old threads Whets interesting about that? What are you trying to insinuate? Please clarify that.

Im pretty sure the curtain test would work matey. I cant see why I wouldnt be able to feel where the person is. Considering I can feel when spirit enter a room I would be able to do the same thing with a living person. But as I said every medium is different so it may not work with everyone.

 Written by: jeff(fake)


Well,
If anyone is willing to perform an open minded exploration of auras I would be willing to help.
Simply list exactly what your claims are and we can devise a few simple experimental tests to ascertain their validity. If that goes well we could build a few more in depth ones. If you wish to remain close minded to alternative possibilities that's your choice. If you wish to simply attack me that's your choice as well. If you want to call me close minded, ask yourself whether you really are open to the other possibilities first.



Let me know how it goes dude. Id be most interested...

I have noted in a previous post that you were attacked. I dont agree with that and I dont support that.
Jeff you are a human being here for a physical experience as much as the rest of us. Just because you dont agree with me doesnt mean that Im going to attack you. As stated previously, everyone is right at their own level of understanding, so by that token what you have written is your level of understanding therefore that is your truthgreat. I will accept that. And the same would be true for me.

Some of the ways you have put things towards me have been rather rude at times, (which I have pointed out in a previous post which you ignored) but as I said I will still respect you even if you have not done the same to me.

I have dealt this entire thread with having my beliefs and values questioned and slammed and have had tests demanded of me now it seems that when tests are being asked of you you are saying that people are close-minded.
Its different when the shoe is on the other foot.

All scientific methods aside matey cause I havent had the time to read your link (and I do apologise for that I have an 18 month old son and can only post when he is nun eyes) why is it acceptable (acceptable, not plausible) for you to test scientifically the psychic abilities of another, but when it is asked of you to disprove the abilities of someone in a testing situation set out by a psychic you get all up in arms?



 Written by: ado-p


I can completely change reality with the power of my mind. I cant prove it though wink



WOOT DERE IT IS! This is quite a true statement. I agree completely. The mind is the most powerful tool we have.


 Written by: onewheeldave



Let me make this VERY CLEAR, cos I don't want to be falsley accused like Jeff has been-

I have not, and am not, saying that all mediums/energy healers are fake.



Matey what has Jeff been falsely accused of?



 Written by: Valura


Dave do you think that some things said in this thread has turned into a bit of a personal attack on my abilities?



 Written by: Dave


Personally, if we broadly split the ommenters of this thread into two groups- the 'believers' vs. the 'sceptics'; in all honesty, I've felt/seen more insults/attacks from individuals (not you Valura) in the believers camp.




I completely agree with that, I have extended that same sentiment to Jeff also on two previous occasions. I dont think that it is at all constructive and helpful to be straight out rude and disrespectful just because someone doesnt believe what you believe.

 Written by: Dave


My feelings of any kind of 'alternative spirituality' is that the highest benefit is that of making the practitioners better people- more objective, less hostile, more tolerant etc.

That, IMO, on this thread, has been lacking.

If, Jeff had been personally insulting, the appropriate response would not be for your friends/supporters to be insulting back (IMO).




I must say that at no time have I encouraged anyone to do so. I have noted that Jeff has said he has copped some kind of flak outside of this thread for his opinions. That is totally unacceptable from a spiritual point of view yes I may get heated and fired up because Im an extremely passionate person when it comes to this type of thing but I would never suggest or want any type of nastiness, because that is totally against what I believe in. Jeff perhaps you could elaborate on whats happening? Via a pm would be nice so I can understand and make sure its not anything I have done .I would appreciate it.


 Written by: Dave


Additionally, as an energy-healer, and one who obviously has committed a lot of time, thought and effort into her work, I would encourage you to not take suggestions for proof as personal attacks.





I dont think that it was really the request for proof that got my back up mate partly yes I suppose, but mostly the way it was demanded of me (or yelled at me in robs case) I found that to be quite upsetting.

If the subject had have been approached in a more positive way without the air of challenge I would have been more likely to discuss it. Still though I wouldnt have completed the tests, Perhaps youll get someone else who will do that for you.


 Written by: Dave


It's entirely up to you whether you wish to engage with such requests, but , to view them as personal attacks is, IMO, to misunderstand their intent.


To your credit, you have previously admitted that you don't have a good grasp of scientific method.

I'd also suggest that it would be useful for you to really try and get into the head of sceptical positions like Jeff.



I intend to read the method so that I am able to relate to Jeffs understanding. I believe that also shows that I am open to learning and trying to understand where he is coming from.

 Written by: Dave


As far as I can tell, he's been pretty sincere and reasonable- understanding that people like Jeff are not closed-minded bigots trying to bring down alternative views of reality, is going to be to the benefit of both parties.



As far as I can tell, he's been pretty sincere and reasonable- hmmm I dont totally agree there He has said some things about my personal subconscious state and my abilities that I find rather rude.;

Jeff has displayed that he believes in the scientific method, I acknowledge that, but at no time has he suggested that anything I have presented to him has any validity or even commented on it. I have made a specific effort to answer his questions and at your suggestion Dave have also made an effort to explain why certain tests will not work.
I even explained the way I personally work and how individual each medium is. I would really appreciate it now if Jeff would be able to perhaps show the same courtesy and answer the questions I have asked of him.

I would also appreciate if Im not to look at Jeff as a close minded bigot as you say, that he also stops insinuating that I am some kind of fake who has doubts on my abilities.
That would be fair. That way both of us get the respect we deserve.

 Written by: Dave

And, to finish, to your credit Valura, despite, IMO, taking some things too personally, you've shown a fair bit of restraint and been honest and objective; more so than some of the people defending/supporting you.



Thanks Dave. I have really done my best to not take it personally, but I know that I havent always been able to do that.

As I have explained earlier I am used to being attacked and belittled because of my beliefs and I am getting tired of being looked down upon.

I do acknowledge that this has helped me grow, but to be very blunt, only since you have helped to defuse the situation.

Perhaps if others could write as objectively as you these misunderstandings wouldnt have happened in the first place.

 Written by: ado-p


Jeff, thats not fair. Not wanting to do things your way is not being closed minded. It might simply mean that people dont want to do things your way. Which is ok really...

Not everyone needs proof the way you do dude... and I dont think its being nice to label us closed minded because we dont submit to your ideas.

I believe in many things. I would be happy to have someone come up with a test that could prove them. But I dont need it. I dont believe any less because those tests havent been done on me and on top of that, I am willing to keep exploring to see how much I can see.

This does not make me closed minded except in the eyes of those who label me so.



*dances and wiggles to the preaching of ado-p*

I hear ya brother!! Damn youre on fire today!


Anyway I hope that I havent pissed anyone off too much in my travels in this thread, I am a passionate person and refuse to apologise for that nor will I justify my beliefs or skills In saying that I really feel that I have helped to extend an olive branch in the aspect of explaining why testing wouldnt work and how difficult it would be to test all mediums equally and fairly. Perhaps you dont reckon so and good-o thats sweet as but one thing I would like is for Jeff to perhaps go back through my posts and make an effort to answer my questions that I have put forward to him thats all. Im doing my best to understand your views, perhaps you could help me out with some answers?
Thanks

V

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
What some people here are saying comes down to, just because "scientists" (representative for people who can't see/feel/etc auras and other spiritual concepts) don't have a perception of auras doesn't mean they still exist.

Fair enough. So we need to develop better instruments to measure auras. But what if they don't exist? We can try making new machines as much as we want, and they'll still not show up. It would be like trying to design a machine that shows the people following a paranoid, or to show the dirt on the hands of someone with OCD. We know synaesthesia exists, but the only way to "prove" that is to work with the people who have it and are willing to share their experience. And then, it still doesn't work for anyone else.

Auras don't compare to love, just as they don't compare to anger, hate, happiness, any of these. True, we don't understand enough of the brain to explain a lot of things yet. Auras may like synaesthesia or paranoia be something that some people perceive and others cannot - this is without evaluation, I'm not saying synaesthetics need therapy or paranoia is good or anything like that, just that some people's brains work, for whatever reasons, different than others'. Maybe one day, we might be able to measure brain waves in a way that will show the people following paranoids. If we can do that, does that mean they exist?

And even with feelings, there are people who cannot perceive them. Take Aspergers, where people cannot read others' feelings well or at all, or take psychopaths who do not have the concept of "wrong" and "right" the average human has.

Strangely enough, when I encounter a blind person who cannot perceive anything with their eyes, I will try and help them. Not say "you just don't want to see it", or "stop being so closed-minded." I wouldn't wait for them to run into an obstacle and then say "well, that's because you're not in touch with your visuality". Similarly, with a deaf person, I'd try and find a way of talking to their face so they can lip-read or write down things I can't get them to understand. You get the idea.

So, to reverse the argument, why should it be up to people with a scientific mind to prove something they cannot perceive (* see end of this)? Why, if spirituality and auras are important to you, do you not try and do all you can to make others see them, how they can benefit from them, and how beautiful they are? If there was something I knew that I think could help a lot of people, I like to think I'd do my best to go out there and show them.

Fair enough, if people don't want to be "experimented on" - don't. But don't go telling those like me that are willing to believe that things outside our perception MAY exist, that we need to get in touch with our spirituality and all that. If you are right, and you can perceive auras while others can't, you should be seeing yourselves as extremely blessed and possibly try and share it, or at least realise that it's not just down to "wanting to believe".


(* - yes, it IS the job of a scientist to prove things they cannot perceive. But there is a limit to this, for example the "subjects", in this case people who say they are able to see auras, being unwilling to participate. You need a basis for an experiment. To go back to the other example, you can't prove the existence of bacteria in a 100% sterile environment, or the effects of a drug against cancer in a healthy person.)

rant over smile

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by: Valura




 Written by: Dave


As far as I can tell, he's been pretty sincere and reasonable- understanding that people like Jeff are not closed-minded bigots trying to bring down alternative views of reality, is going to be to the benefit of both parties.



As far as I can tell, he's been pretty sincere and reasonable- hmmm I don't totally agree there He has said some things about my personal subconscious state and my abilities that I find rather rude.;




Is it the tone of his words, or is it the fact that he doubts your abilities?

Are you OK with the fact that some people will, in the absense of what they consider to be good evidence, doubt that you have the ability to see auras?

(by auras there I mean auras which have objective reality and which manifest knowledge about the health/mental state of the person whose aura it is- no on here doubts that you do actually see something).

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by: Valura



 Written by: onewheeldave





Let me make this VERY CLEAR, cos I don't want to be falsley accused like Jeff has been-



I have not, and am not, saying that all mediums/energy healers are fake.





Matey what has Jeff been falsely accused of?









On several occasions, some people on this thread have assumed that, because Jeff has critisised evidence for auras, that he considers auras to be not real.



 Written by: Valura





I do acknowledge that this has helped me grow, but to be very blunt, only since you have helped to defuse the situation.



Perhaps if others could write as objectively as you these misunderstandings wouldn't have happened in the first place.







Thanks.



Objectivity can be developed, IMO one of the best ways of developing is to occasionally take time to really doubt your own beliefs- to act as your own 'Jeff'.



Not in a negative way- obviously we all have to look after ourselves and we don't want to make ourselves ill/depressed with self-doubt.



But, to stand back from our deepest beliefs and really ask- how could they be doubted, what tests could I do to disprove my beliefs,is, IMO a very healthy thing to do.



If the beliefs are valid, then they will be strengthened by it.



Additionally, when you encounter other people who put out doubts, you'll be able to engage with them without feeling personally attacked, because most of what they come out with you'll have dealt with already.



One thing a good scientist does, is not focus on looking for evidence that confirms their theory, but, instead, focuses on looking for evidence which will disprove it.



A strong scientific theory is one which has stated clear ways in which experiments could disprove it and, withstood those experiements.



(I acknowledge that not everyone is interested in scientific methodology, but, IMO, that aspect is a very good aspect and one which I feel is valuable in other contexts, such as philosophy and personal beliefs).

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


ValuraSILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Posted:
 Written by: Birgit


What some people here are saying comes down to, just because "scientists" (representative for people who can't see/feel/etc auras and other spiritual concepts) don't have a perception of auras doesn't mean they still exist.

Fair enough. So we need to develop better instruments to measure auras. But what if they don't exist? We can try making new machines as much as we want, and they'll still not show up. It would be like trying to design a machine that shows the people following a paranoid, or to show the dirt on the hands of someone with OCD. We know synaesthesia exists, but the only way to "prove" that is to work with the people who have it and are willing to share their experience. And then, it still doesn't work for anyone else.

Auras don't compare to love, just as they don't compare to anger, hate, happiness, any of these. True, we don't understand enough of the brain to explain a lot of things yet. Auras may like synaesthesia or paranoia be something that some people perceive and others cannot - this is without evaluation, I'm not saying synaesthetics need therapy or paranoia is good or anything like that, just that some people's brains work, for whatever reasons, different than others'. Maybe one day, we might be able to measure brain waves in a way that will show the people following paranoids. If we can do that, does that mean they exist?

And even with feelings, there are people who cannot perceive them. Take Aspergers, where people cannot read others' feelings well or at all, or take psychopaths who do not have the concept of "wrong" and "right" the average human has.

Strangely enough, when I encounter a blind person who cannot perceive anything with their eyes, I will try and help them. Not say "you just don't want to see it", or "stop being so closed-minded." I wouldn't wait for them to run into an obstacle and then say "well, that's because you're not in touch with your visuality". Similarly, with a deaf person, I'd try and find a way of talking to their face so they can lip-read or write down things I can't get them to understand. You get the idea.

So, to reverse the argument, why should it be up to people with a scientific mind to prove something they cannot perceive (* see end of this)? Why, if spirituality and auras are important to you, do you not try and do all you can to make others see them, how they can benefit from them, and how beautiful they are? If there was something I knew that I think could help a lot of people, I like to think I'd do my best to go out there and show them.

Fair enough, if people don't want to be "experimented on" - don't. But don't go telling those like me that are willing to believe that things outside our perception MAY exist, that we need to get in touch with our spirituality and all that. If you are right, and you can perceive auras while others can't, you should be seeing yourselves as extremely blessed and possibly try and share it, or at least realise that it's not just down to "wanting to believe".


(* - yes, it IS the job of a scientist to prove things they cannot perceive. But there is a limit to this, for example the "subjects", in this case people who say they are able to see auras, being unwilling to participate. You need a basis for an experiment. To go back to the other example, you can't prove the existence of bacteria in a 100% sterile environment, or the effects of a drug against cancer in a healthy person.)

rant over smile




Brigit do not misinterpret my unwillingness to commit to Jeffs tests as an unwillingness to discuss the subject of auras or teach what I know about them.
In saying that, I will only teach if people approach me and ask to learn about such things. Then im very open and willing to teach and chat about it.

Spirituality is a very individual and personal thing and I am NOT going to go out and preach about the benefits to people who may not want to hear it. That is imposing. Who am I to do that?

In my honest opinion, outward dissmissal without some type of evaluation on the slight chance of the other possibility being correct, is a sign of ignorance.
That is why I have continued to state through out this entire thread that science and spirit go hand in hand. I truely believe this.

I do not need to stand up and single myself out in front of others and be tested to prove that to anyone.


If people are in a place they want to learn from, then they can come to me for explaination or help. I dont go out and try to "convert" people. People are here on earth to learn lessons. Everybody does it in their own time and in a pre detirmined way...if I was to come in all guns ablazing professing I knew everything about auras and what was good for them in their spiritual life I would do three things...

One...interfear with the lesson that that particular person has to learn through their own spiritual discovery, therefore rob them of a learning experience....

Two... alienate that person by coming across as a superior zealot.

Three... make myslef look like an ego-centric arse, claiming Im here to teach everyone all about auras. This would turn away those who are truley interested in learning about spirit beacsue they would feel that its a big ole ego show.... thats NOT what my personal spirituality is about.

I have had these abilities since I was a tiny little girl and I have trouble explaining them a lot of the time. They just ARE for me.
They are an ingrained part of my life, something i have come to accept.

I remember being surprised when I realised noone else could see all the energy sqiggles in the sky or around things like I could. I was 8.

It aint easy to be different. I have had eggs thrown at me at reading days, I have been called a witch, had people use me as their personal psychic when I thought I was a friend of theirs on my own merits, not my reading abilities


I started out stating in this thread is that I am able to see auras. I have not ONCE stated that perhaps if someone was to raise their energy then they would be able to see them.
Nor have I uttered the words "well, that's because you're not in touch with your visuality" or insinuate that its as easy as "wanting to believe".

Even the very thought of me saying that to someone is so damn disgusting it leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. It would allude to an air of supererority, and an inability to relate to people who are starting their spiritual journey. It shows complete lack of empathy and compassion to a person. I am not like that at all. I do my best to stand in anothers place.

I find what I 'do', very overwhelming and difficult at times..
I have had to work hard at tuning myself in like a radio, and even then it doesnt work all the time.

I have had to learn how to detach my feelings from another's because I spent three days crying after I read for a lady whos baby had been murdered.
I have thrown up every day for a straight month because I attempted to heal a woman with cancer. I have slept for 40 hours straight becasue of sheer exhaustion from doing 11 hours of reading.
I go to homes of sick people to help them get better with reiki treatments becasue all I want to do in life is really truley help people who are in pain or hurting, and if they want that help, then thats beautiful. If not then thats their choice. no problem-o

Im not claiming to be better than anyone or act like a know it all.
I am, and always will be, learning about this.

Because this is something that is so special to me I rarely talk about it here on HoP. I understand that its not the 'norm' and I dont want to weird people out or even scare them... and I certianly dont want people thinking Im a fraud or a fruitloop. That hurts my feelings, becasue surprisingly, Im a very sensitive person.ubblol

I only shared becasue I had a different angle to put in, and now Im starting to regret that, not because people doubt me, I have come to expect those needs and when I am reading for them they get the proof that they require.
Just because this thread seems to have gone downhilll since I opened my big mouth about what I do, and is now more focused on the whole test/ not to test, situation than the creative discussion regarding auras.

For that im pretty sorry.redface

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"


ado-pGOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland


Posted:
I vote for a creative discussion regarding auras!!!

I wonder how many people here can actually drag themselves away from proving their point and allow this subject to progress into something interesting?

Love is the law.


mcpPLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom


Posted:
Somedays I wish a thread with this title would consist of lots of one line replies:

"I do"
"I do"
"I don't"
"I do"
"I don't"
"I don't"
"I don't"
"I do"
"I don't"
"I do"

but I think that must be a slight tendency to OCD.

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
I didn't mean that post as a personal attack on you, Valura! There's more than one person on here that suggested people should get in touch with their spirituality though, in one way or another (meditation, energy work, ...), and since I haven't addressed my post to you please don't see it as that. I found what you had to say very interesting, even if it's different from what I think/believe hug



Let me just mention some of MY experiences with spiritual people.



I've had people in my life who have, again and again, rubbed it in that I am "too scientific" and should "just believe" (in whatever THEY believe in, usually).

I've been told I'm a witch and I'm wasting my abilities by not connecting to that side of me, and that may be harmful for me. So, basically, a threat that something bad will happen to me because I can't "be bothered" to be spiritual.

I've had a pagan ex pour a glass of whiskey over me because I laughed at a quote from a rune reading book that to me sounded funny and very far-fetched, even when I was trying to go through the book with him and make sense out of some explanations he didn't understand.

It's not just the non-spiritual people who can be rude and horrible to those with an "alternative" (to theirs!) mindset.



I've had people coming up to me saying I should just get in touch with myself, or God, and my diabetes would be healed.

I've had people saying I got it in the first place because I had done something (though they couldn't tell me what) to bring it on, at age 2, and it could be healed if I found out what.

So whenever I say something critical about pretend-healers, and the "JUST do that"-fraction, I do know what I'm talking about, out of painful experience of my own. If it was all that easy, wouldn't I have done it already?





What I'm trying to get to is, maybe those things do not exist for some people because their brains CANNOT tune in to it. Not just seeing auras and working with them, but some of the effects of what some healers do either. And, like light, some may perceive it in different ways, like even a blind person can feel the heat from the sun, but not from a lightbulb a few metres away. It's all possible.



Bear in mind that I think that whatever you do to help people is good, BECAUSE it helps them. No matter if I believe in the actual aura, if someone benefits from it, that is great.



But the question was, "do you believe in auras", and some people on here have stated with quite good arguments from their point of view why they don't.



If though, like vision or sound, auras may be something that exists for SOME people while others lack the senses, a main part of the responsibility for proving their existence does lie with those people. IF they want others to believe in them.



Hope it's a bit clearer now... I really wasn't having a go at you, Valura smile
EDITED_BY: Birgit (1165929218)

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
 Written by: mcp


but I think that must be a slight tendency to OCD.



I would've said "maybe", but I've seen that video of your kitchen (and the kitchen, in fact) tongue hug

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


mcpPLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom


Posted:
yeah but you should see me when I clean the bathroom. tongue

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.


Mascotenthusiast
301 posts

Posted:
gah

It's frustrating watching this thread go round in circles. The scientist crowd get frustrated that the aura believers refuse to do any experiments. The aura believers say that they know auras are real, are happy in that knoledge and don't feel the need to convince sceptics.

Then dubious anecdotal evidence and purported scientific tests are thrown around, interlaced with thinly veiled personal attacks. This thread has grown and grown and I'm sure each side feels that they are banging their head against a brick wall.

For those involved in this frustrating merry-go-round I've got news for you.

The believers are never going to suddenly say "Oh yes I see now, without repeatable evidence from properly designed trials I must reject the existence of these phenomena" and make a mental note to stop seeing auras.

The sceptics are never going to back off unless someone gives them some proof they can accept. This is complicated by the fact that they are rather fussy about what they consider to be sufficient proof.

We all live in a world we choose. I think Ado-P has said this already. In Valura's world I have no doubt that auras exist, she can see them and knows their effects. What more proof could she want? In Jeff or Rob's world auras do not exist.

I think we must be happy to live and let live. We might think that other's world is wrong, but they can choose what to believe and no-one can take that away from them.

Same planet, diffrent worlds.

Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
The_boy_g:

The believers are never going to suddenly say "Oh yes I see now, without repeatable evidence from properly designed trials I must reject the existence of these phenomena" and make a mental note to stop seeing auras.



The sceptics are never going to back off unless someone gives them some proof they can accept. This is complicated by the fact that they are rather fussy about what they consider to be sufficient proof.




an exclent post with some good points. i am curious though the sceptics have said what it will take to convince them of the existance of auras and while fussy performing the experiments is acheaveable and posable.



what would it take to convince the beleavers that they are wrong what could someone do the prove to you auras didn't exist or is there nothing anyone could do to convince you?





Valura:



First offwhat did you hope to gain from pretending to read me? Just wondering.



i was trying to point out that just because you dont know how something is done doesn't meen it must have been done misticaly. i had hoped that while of course you would know i wasn't realy useing supernatural powers you wouldn't be able to tell exacly how it was done. also i was hopeing that haveing you scepticaly evaluate my clame (as i knew you would) would help you under my point of view better as you would be force to be the sceptic looking in instead of the beleaver looking out. of course you figured out pritty quick how i did the trick so it failed quite miserably smile



Plus your statement of of course its interesting to note I did learn allot about you in reading all your old threads Whets interesting about that? What are you trying to insinuate? Please clarify that.



i wasn't trying to insinuate anything. all im saying is its intresting reading about someones life and your are of course very intresting and your life has been as well its also very well documented on hop. i would hope its helped me understand you a little better. i wasn't trying to be insulting. im just saying your an intresting person whos lead and intresting life nothing negative was intended. it was suposed to be a compliment though odviously that failed rather badly to frown (not doing very well am i)



yes I suppose, but mostly the way it was demanded of me (or yelled at me in robs case) I found that to be quite upsetting.



ok first of i'ed like to appologise for loseing my cool earlyer and shouting at you. looking back now it was regretable thing to do and i shouldn't have done it. i hope you'll accept my appology. but i'ed like to explain why i did it. Firstly let me say this is not the first debate i've had about the supernatural its an intrest of mine and i tend to be drawn to forums posts such as these (not just on hop). Anyway after posting in threads like this for afew years i've found there tends be a common progression



-beleavers we beleave in X

-non-beleavers we wont beleave in X until we see some proof of X

-Beleavers there is tons of proof of X lets call it Z

-non-beleavers Z wasn't collected under sientific conditions. a valid peaice of proof would be Y(some kind of experiment)

-beleavers we're not going to do Y, Z should be enough for you how can you not beleave after seeing Z.



at this point the debate is pritty much at an end an inpass has been reached. they never progress beond this stage. this is where we are now and have been for some time (since about page 6 of the thread). i tend to get frustrated at his point because no matter what i say or do, debates of this nature never go beond this stage. however the proof i need to accept a beleaf such as this would be found in the next step, every time i get within spitting distance of geting a clear answer and then the debate stops. And we end up going in cirles until everyone gets board and drops the subject compeatly without ever reaching a conclusion. This realy furstrates me every time it happens. but it was wrong to take those furstrations out on you and for that i apologigse. hug



also you said some of your question weren't answered could you collect them together and post them up again for us.



finaly you must understand the way i feel when you say you wont do the test. you could very easly convince me of your abilitys by compleateing it. i personaly would be facinated by the results of such testing. i would hope you would reconcider doing the testing so that we can progress this debate beond where they normaly end but at the very least i hope you can understand why refusing to do it frustrates me so.
EDITED_BY: robnunchucks (1165940392)

My nunchucks vital statictics biggrin

weight: 500g
handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches


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