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The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:Hi all

I've been studying the use of complementary therapies in palliative care for a research project at Uni. I've been looking at how these often clinically unproven therapies are being integrated into conventional medical care for the dying, the reasons for it and the benefits of it e.t.c.

One of the things I've been up to is watching a therapist give reiki treatments to patients. I started talking to the therapist afterwards about the 'energy body' and if she can see it. She says she just feels the energy, but cannot see it.

I personally would like to believe that we each have an aura or 'energy body', but at the same time I don't like buying into things without a healthy dose of scepticism also. So I was wondering what you guys all think...

If anyone also wants to argue for or against auras, or give their personal experiences with 'energy', I'm interested in whatever you guys have to say.

Cheers.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted: Written by: jo

just because our 5 senses don't register something, doesnt mean they don't exist.





especially considering science has discovered we actually have many more than 5 senses (but don't ask me to name them all!)



I'll just add that to a growing list of things science didn't know til recently but was widely regarded as "truth"





Birgit; i dont get it redface

*considers it an argument for auras*


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted: Written by: Birgit



On the other hand, it can hardly count as "proof" that someone you know from a forum says they can do something. For all, say, you Australians know about me, I could claim that I can walk on water and I could very probably give Jeff(fake) some chocolate cake to testify for me. I'm NOT saying this is what you're doing, Valura, just why someone with a scientific mindset wouldn't accept it as proof.





What I dont understand is why Im the one that seems to have to prove my abilitys. I have given proof that has been scientificaly tested, and not related to me personally with the links in my posts.

noone seems to want to talk about that though. shrug


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Valura

Again I will give you some scientific tests that have been conducted on other pyschics to answer your questions. You keep asking for theproof of such things exsisiting and being able to test it scientifically... so here you go....



He writes:



These mediums have been tested under experimental conditions that rule out the use of fraud and cold reading techniques commonly used by psychic entertainers and mental magicians.



Details of his experiments in the Veritas Program are available on his website [url=http://veritas.arizona.edu/."]http://veritas.arizona.edu/."[/url]



perhaps if your not willing to look at the results then your petrified that there is the possibilty of spirit being true. Either that or do you just want to keep digging at me personally?



Well, that's a piece of well crafted scientific research, vigorously peer reviewed, repeated, and certainly not carried out by people who who easily swayed and duped[/sarcasm]



The scientific method needs to be followed to carry out science, otherwise all you have left, as we have in Veritas's case, is pseudoscience. If the Veritas organisation seriously had scientific proof of the paranormal, they could claim Randi's million. If all they want to do is play make-believe-science and chose to ignore reliable peer review and reliable independant repitition then they can continue playing for as long as they live, but their "findings" will not convince anyone other than true-believers.



Now based on your claims of your abilities, if you were completely blindfolded you would still be able to retain some degree of navigation based on the auras of those around you. Why not try blindfolding yourself and see if you can walk through a forest (if trees have auras) or through a crowd of people without bumping into them? It's quick and it's easy.

EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1165669772)


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Jeff, I believe Valura said that that guy won't let anyone who actually knows what they're doing try for the million. So I think we can stop referring to him since it's pretty much been said that he's a dodgy piece of works anyway.



Not to mention the argument that keeps getting brought up saying what was commonly regarded as "science" centuries ago is now regarded as crap. you cannot deny that. therefore it is very logical that science 200 years from now will render many of today's "truths" absolute crap. Auras or otherwise. But you cannot definitely say "otherwise" without including auras too, because unless YOU are psychic, I'd think you couldn't predict that wink

EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1165670019)


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Rouge Dragon



Jeff, I believe Valura said that that guy won't let anyone who actually knows what they're doing try for the million. So I think we can stop referring to him since it's pretty much been said that he's a dodgy piece of works anyway.





This is the Ad hominem fallacy. This particular one is factually incorrect, and quite frankly a lie spread by people Randi has exposed as frauds. Everyone can try for the prize except those who's claims would result in their deaths if they weren't true (such as breatharians). The prize was put on the line on live television during a BBC documentary on of claim that homeopaths were absolutely certain was legitimite, just as one example of a situation were "people who knew what they were doing" were tested.



 Written by: Rouge dragon

Not to mention the argument that keeps getting brought up saying what was commonly regarded as "science" centuries ago is now regarded as crap. you cannot deny that. therefore it is very logical that science 200 years from now will render many of today's "truths" absolute crap. Auras or otherwise. But you cannot definitely say "otherwise" without including auras too, because unless YOU are psychic, I'd think you couldn't predict that wink



This is the Ad ignorantum fallacy.



I'm not saying aura's arent real, I'm saying that there is no objective evidence for their existance, despite around a hundred years of testing and that no-one rigourus tested has ever turned out to have supernatural powers of any kinds.



Extraordinary claim require extraordinary evidence, and so for not even ordinary evidence has been provided.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Maybe if you'd stop being pretentious and writing Latin then I'd understand you and have something to say.



Would you like me to write something in Japanese? Or perhaps Romanian?

EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1165670791)


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Ad hominem - attacking the messanger
Ad ignoratum - arguement from ignorance

Any basic guide to logic will mention both.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:My apologies for not reading "basic guides to logic" with a hot cocoa and bikkies before going to bed

rolleyes


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Dr. Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World" or Michael Shermer's "Why people believe weird things" come with my personal recommendations for readability and rigour. heart
EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1165675053)


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Bek66
Bek66

Future Mrs Pogo
Location: The wrong place
Member Since: 27th Aug 2006
Total posts: 4728
Posted:'Person' reccommendations???



I do believe that you mean 'personal' recommendations.



I believe that Rougie prefers Marian Zimmer Bradley's "The Mysts of Avalon" or "The Book Thief" by Markus Zusak for 'readability and rigour' and thinks that you could do well to read "The Big Orange Splot" by Daniel M. Pinkwater, but if she posts in here again I'm gonna kick her arse!



Personally...I think you need to get laid...might change your attitude on life a bit!!!

EDITED_BY: fyrespirit (1165673169)


"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: fyrespirit



Personally...I think you need to get laid...might change your attitude on life a bit!!!



ubblol



How little you know about me, or my attitude to life. biggrin



I'm actually considered quite the individualist. I simply refuse to believe strange things without good reason.



Interesting that you think being a scientist equates to being a conformist though.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Bek66
Bek66

Future Mrs Pogo
Location: The wrong place
Member Since: 27th Aug 2006
Total posts: 4728
Posted:And how little I want to know!


On topic...

I've been able to see the aura since I was a little girl....
The body works on electrical impulses just like every other natural thing on this planet...
Electricity is energy...energy has a glow...
I don't need a proof...

When we stop believing in the things that are 'magickal'...those things are taken away from us.
The ones who want to refute these things, do not deserve to be blessed with them in the first place.

Valura...you are a blessing upon this Earth...a precious child of the Goddess...never let anyone make you feel any different!
hug


"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)



I'm actually considered quite the individualist. I simply refuse to believe strange things without good reason.





well, then, as you are strange, and i have never actually seen you, i say you do not exist and therefore cannot be an individualist without being existant biggrin

did i get Ad ignoratum - arguement from ignorance right?


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: fyrespirit



The ones who want to refute these things, do not deserve to be blessed with them in the first place.



I'm sensing some hostility here on your part.



If I can repeat my point again: I'm not refuting auras, I'm saying that there is no good evidence for them, and no-one who's ever been reliably tested has ever shown any signs of seeing auras, despite the tests being relatively simple (such as a blindfold) and testing occuring for many years.



 Written by: faithinfire



 Written by: jeff(fake)





I'm actually considered quite the individualist. I simply refuse to believe strange things without good reason.









well, then, as you are strange, and i have never actually seen you, i say you do not exist and therefore cannot be an individualist without being existant biggrin



did i get Ad ignoratum - arguement from ignorance right?



Technically that's a Non-Sequitur. hug wink


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:shhh i think you are a computer program like the suit guy from the matrix

you don't want us to see these things wink

EDITED_BY: faithinfire (1165677530)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

Bek66
Bek66

Future Mrs Pogo
Location: The wrong place
Member Since: 27th Aug 2006
Total posts: 4728
Posted:No hostility...I just feel that you have insulted some people that I consider my friends and I personally don't care for pretentiousness...

If you don't believe...fine...state your opinion and move on...
I've stated mine...and I'm done!


"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: faithinfire


shhh i think you are a computer program like the suit guy from the matrix
you don't want us to see these things wink



Curses! You've guessed the Truth! eek


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted: Written by: Rouge Dragon


Maybe if you'd stop being pretentious and writing Latin then I'd understand you and have something to say.




ubblol I love you Rouge!! ubblol


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted: Written by: Valura


What I dont understand is why Im the one that seems to have to prove my abilitys. I have given proof that has been scientificaly tested, and not related to me personally with the links in my posts.

noone seems to want to talk about that though. shrug



Well... I think it IS because the links are not related to you personally, that people find it hard to see it as proof for your abilities.

Now, I understand why you don't want to play the monkey that jumps when someone tells you to just to prove your abilities. But for someone who doesn't believe in them, and has never seen them, websites aren't enough of a proof. If you look hard enough, you'll find websites "proving" nearly anything in the world. Think of all the idiots that make money selling miracle cures, they have websites and people testifying for them, too. Again, I'm not putting you on a level with them, especially since you don't do stuff for money as you say, but as long as I, and some others on here, have not experienced your abilities there's no way we can just go "sure, I'll believe that."

It's not personal (at least on my part) at all. I would be the same for abilities I believe in to start with, say someone told me the Chili Peppers have a good bassist, I'd have to hear their music before agreeing, or if they said mcp kicks arse with contact staff, I'd want to see her spin. Now if it's something I doubt is possible, of course I'd want to experience it to believe in it. Like with the drummer from Def Leppard, I would have had my doubts whether he can do a decent rhythm set because he only has one arm, but having seen him do it I believe it's possible.

Hmmm... I suppose what I'm trying to say here is, I don't ask you to prove anything to me, especially not just for the sake of proving it, but I reserve the right to be doubtful about spirituality until someone demonstrates it in a way that I can believe in. Which doesn't mean I say "auras don't exist", just that "I don't THINK they exist but I'm willing to learn if they do". hug

What I'm wondering is, if you think you COULD pass that million dollar test, wouldn't it be worth doing it and saying you don't want the money? That way you could make life easier for lots of people who are faced with discussions like this.


Rougie, I'll try and explain it again... not one to give up easily! ubblol hug

Take this idea... we have a medium and 3 people. The medium can look at them and study their auras and pick one (s)he thinks (s)he'll recognise. Then the person running the "experiment" puts that person behind a curtain, or in a dark room, in a position that they have marked before. It should be possible for the medium to find out where that person is in the dark room, or how far along the curtain they stand.

So, the one running the experiment would be blind to the aura, but since they know where in the room the person is, they'd know if the medium was right or wrong.

I hope this makes a bit more sense now! I suppose though that if the auras are to do with synaesthesia it wouldn't work, since you'd have to have some perception first to then get the aura accompanying it.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: jo_rhymes


 Written by: Rouge Dragon


Maybe if you'd stop being pretentious and writing Latin then I'd understand you and have something to say.




ubblol I love you Rouge!! ubblol



I'm also shortsighted if you want more material to work with. smile


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:can you prove that they do not exist, that there are no people who cannot see them
in a way they are a possiblity, considering how little of the color spectrum that we can see. we know there are colors we cannot see...just like there are sounds we cannot hear
though i understand your point is that we cannot prove they exist, you are not arguing about the actual existence as you see that unimportant for the discussion


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted: Written by: Birgit



Well... I think it IS because the links are not related to you personally, that people find it hard to see it as proof for your abilities.





Seriously they can believe what they want because at the end of the day this discussion wasnt about "wether or not Valura can see auras..." I just presented what I knew from my personal experiences. It then seemed to turn into "prove it Valura" and quite frankly as you have stated Brigit... I dont have to, I only offered some of the things that have occured in my life as some support as to what I was saying.

Im hardly going to "prove" myself on the demands of a closed minded materialist. Meh. biggrin

What I find confusing is the fact that Jeff you seem to be okay make assumptions on my physcological state but you seem to be quite ruffled when some one else makes some assumptions about you... "I find it funny how little you know about me....or my views on life." hmmmm... bit hypocritical....?

Anyway I must give a big ole "bloody good show ole mate" to faithinfire for the "well, then, as you are strange, and i have never actually seen you, i say you do not exist and therefore cannot be an individualist without being existant" quote, I fell off my chair with the giggles at that one!

ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol

Im not going to continue to pickapart jeffs slamming at my understandin of the scientific methods cause Im not a scientist and would have the faintest idea of what he was on about... plus its starting to seem like an excersise in futility trying to explain things to the skeptics... they dont want to take any type of rubuttle and work with it at all...Im finding a circle of words is starting to form and we are getting nowhere. smile

Thanks for your insights Brigit. I can understand where you are coming from but just for the record... my chocolate cake wouldnt entice anyone to say ANYTHING nice about me!! ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol
Plus it would be hard sending it to Bird all the way in Pingland! wink

Fyrespirit + Rougie = ubblove


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Twiggy
Twiggy

member
Location: Birmingham, UK
Member Since: 8th Jan 2006
Total posts: 162
Posted: Written by: jo_rhymes


just because our 5 senses don't register something, doesnt mean they don't exist.



It doesn't register on 5 or the other 4 of my senses. We have around 9 senses.
My philosophy is that if i cant sense it, i dont believe it to exist. wink


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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:if you can't sense something, you don't believe it to exist. hmm. ok.

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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crowley2
crowley2

official hop cutie
Location: Uk, Essex, Clacton
Member Since: 22nd Nov 2005
Total posts: 272
Posted:I believe in auras and most ppl sense them even if they dont notice it like have u ever looked at sm1 and thought wow he looks sucessfull or man i dont want to mess with him some ppl are more adempt at feeling auras from ppl its the same way u know when sm1s lying but u cant explain y ubbangel

The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry pratchett

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:I just found this on a website. Apparently you can demonstrate auras using it! Dunno if it's worth a try perhaps?

"First you need to find two hollow non-metal tubes. The inside of a glad wrap or tin foil roll is ideal or you could use a rubber hose. Cut it to a length that easily fits your hand. Next you need two pieces of wire. I like to use the wire from a coat hanger. Bend each piece of wire to form a right angle. Place each wire into each of the tubes. The wire should be free to move. Turn off as many electrical gadgets as you can as these may interfere with the demonstration. Certainly turn off your TV, computer and mobile phones.

Now for the demonstration. You may choose to do this outside in the garden but you can just as easily do it inside so long as there is a bit of room and not too much clutter. Ask your friend to stand as far away from you as they can. The further the better really as we don't yet know where the boundaries of your friends' aura are. Hold the tubes with the wires inserted. Hold one tube in each hand. Hold your hands out in front of you. Very slowly walk towards your friend. As you slowly approach your friend the wires will probably move around a little. At some point the wires will suddenly start to move outwards. This will happen as they interact with one of the outer limits of your friends' aura.

It may take a couple of tries to get a real feeling for what's happening. If nothing happens or you're just not convinced then you may be starting this demonstration already inside the aura field. If this is the case you will just need to approach your friend from a greater distance. Once you get a feel for things there will be no doubt in your mind that the aura exists as a strong field of energy surrounding each and every one of us. Make some kind of a mark on the floor to record where the wires did their thing. Then swap and let your friend hold the tubes and approach you. If they were a non-believer before they will soon be stunned.

You can also demonstrate how our emotions affect our auras. Get your friend to think of something really negative or a time when they were unhappy. Ask them to hold that thought. Repeat the demonstration outlined above. You will be amazed at how the limits of the aura have shrunken as you start to step over the previously recorded line. Now go back to your starting point. Ask your friend to think of something really positive or a time when they felt great and were happy. When you repeat the exercise you will find that their auras have expanded. Sometimes this expansion will actually be outside of the walls of the room you are doing this demonstration in so you may need to go outside into a more open space!

If you are a really keen student of the aura you may want to progress from this exercise. Once you get a feel for things you can try just using your hands with the palms of your hands held out in front of you as slowly walk forward. It takes a bit more time and effort to develop sensitivity but it can be done and anyone can do it. You don't need to be psychic or hold any special skills or talents."


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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crowley2
crowley2

official hop cutie
Location: Uk, Essex, Clacton
Member Since: 22nd Nov 2005
Total posts: 272
Posted:has any1 done tai chi and made a chi ball basicaaly makeing a ball beetween ur hands by a few exercises and breathing control did this once real freeky

The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry pratchett

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Valura



Im not going to continue to pickapart jeffs slamming at my understandin of the scientific methods cause Im not a scientist and would have the faintest idea of what he was on about...



It might be a good idea to learn the scientific method.



 Written by: Valura

plus its starting to seem like an excersise in futility trying to explain things to the skeptics... they dont want to take any type of rubuttle and work with it at all...Im finding a circle of words is starting to form and we are getting nowhere. smile



Some might call that close minded. I've explained a very simple technique that would convince me to take you seriously:

Blindfold yourself and then navigate through a crowd of people. If your powers are as you have described them then it should be possible. Cue two million from Randi and the the Nobel prize committe and worldwide fame you could use to alleviate the suffering of tens of thousands. You could be a modern Ghandi.



I can wiggle my ears. If you seriously doubted me, I could film it and email it to you. No trouble at all. If I was being offered a million to do it, I'd jump at the chance.



Jo rhymes: There's a very simple way to demonstrate whether your experiment is due a simple ideomotor effect (like in dowsing).



If it isn't an ideomotor effect, then it won't be dependant on you holding the tubes. Simply affix them to a table, and walk towards them, being careful not to create any draft.



The US army would be very interested I think in a method of picking out whether people are hiding in a particular vicinity.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:maybe the US should employ the same technique they used for finding out whether there are weapons of mass destruction hiding in a particular vicinity: make it up wink

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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gita
gita

.:*distracted by shiny things*:.
Location: brizvegas
Member Since: 13th Oct 2003
Total posts: 3776
Posted:is anyone else getting dizzy reading this thread? wink

do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good to eat!

if at first you do succeed, try not to look too astonished!

smile! grin it confuses people!

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