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The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:Hi all

I've been studying the use of complementary therapies in palliative care for a research project at Uni. I've been looking at how these often clinically unproven therapies are being integrated into conventional medical care for the dying, the reasons for it and the benefits of it e.t.c.

One of the things I've been up to is watching a therapist give reiki treatments to patients. I started talking to the therapist afterwards about the 'energy body' and if she can see it. She says she just feels the energy, but cannot see it.

I personally would like to believe that we each have an aura or 'energy body', but at the same time I don't like buying into things without a healthy dose of scepticism also. So I was wondering what you guys all think...

If anyone also wants to argue for or against auras, or give their personal experiences with 'energy', I'm interested in whatever you guys have to say.

Cheers.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Valura has posted a link to the 'Veritas Foundation'- an organisation endeavouring to show scientifically that the after-life is real; headed by Gary Schwartz

Here-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Schwartz
br>
is a link to a Wikipedia page on Schwartz.

It has a link to a scientists critisism of the protocols used, plus a link to Schwarts rebuttal/defence and a link to a response to that.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:I should also point out that critisism of and issues with, protocols/methodologies is not restricted to investigations into the paranormal- many a purely scientific study has fallen short of the standard required (for example, the experiments claiming to establish 'cold-fusion' ).



It's very, very difficult to ensure that a scientific study is free of flaws or innapropriate influence.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:I agree that some people have been unnessacarily rude to Jeff, and thats not helpful at all.

I also agree that many mediums have been shown to be frauds in the past, but there are a great deal of good ones who have undeniable gifts and give of themsleves for the betterment of others.

I dont believe that a few bad apples should taint the others and that its a huge generalisation and very unfair to judge all mediums on the indescretions of a few.

After all there are a few huge scientific cheats and the result of those indescretions have hardly had everyone tar and feather the whole scientific world, as seems to happen when their is a medium cheat
cheating science


I feel the validity, or justification, for the above, lies not in scientifically trying to prove them, but in the perceived benefits they bring to those who engage in them.

Personally, I'd like to see practitioners and believers simply focusing on that, rather than, as many do, using 'pseudo-science' to try and prove them.


*headdesk*

Thats what I have been trying to say this whole time.ubbloco

I have faith in what I do, and so do my clients or they wouldnt return. So do my family and MANY hoppers who have been to me for readings or for treatments. The benefits that they get after the treatments that they tell me about are enough proof for me.

But when people start demanding that you are tested and yelling at you (as robnunchucks did) it becomes rather confronting. That is why I provided other expeimental examples in the hope of steering it away from being so personal toward myself. frown

I simply gave my opinion from a different perspective and have been being asked to justify myself ever since.


One thing I must say... Uri Gellar, david Blaine and derran brown, are NOT mediums.
As you say one wheel dave ~All do basically the same thing, which is 'unnatural/amazing/bewildering' feats for entertainment/profit.

Mediums shouldnt be judged on these people as they are as different as night and day when it comes to how they work.

For example, I am most distressed at the former link put up by Robnunchucks in regards to Derran Brown.
Working as a medium I find that people who are genuine fakes and do these sort of experiments are cruel and they disgust me.
Those people that Mr Brown was "fishing" were all in belief that he was doing his best to contact their passed family members, and when they found out he was conning them, that would have been incrdibly painful. How dare he hurt them like that.

There are people out there who have a need to contact passed loved ones to heal and move on with life.
To have people like THAT out there gives the gunenily gifted people a bad name. THAT MAKES ME MAD.

You cant lump mediums, cairvoyants, conjurers, tricksters, magic users like David Blaine and Cruel conmen like Derran Brown all together in the one catergory, they all do totally different things.

Thats like saying all the people who play a ball sport play soccer.


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


I should also point out that critisism of and issues with, protocols/methodologies is not restricted to investigations into the paranormal- many a purely scientific study has fallen short of the standard required (for example, the experiments claiming to establish 'cold-fusion' ).

It's very, very difficult to ensure that a scientific study is free of flaws or innapropriate influence.



If that is the case then isnt the entire request of testing me a huge waste of time in the first place?

If the 'test' was very difficult to prove to be free from outside inapropiate influence, then it wouldnt be fair to either party, and I have been getting goaded into taking a test which will in the end prove NOTHING.

now thats frusterating.


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Valura




One thing I must say... Uri Gellar, david Blaine and derran brown, are NOT mediums.
As you say one wheel dave ~All do basically the same thing, which is 'unnatural/amazing/bewildering' feats for entertainment/profit.

Mediums shouldnt be judged on these people as they are as different as night and day when it comes to how they work.




However, where Gellar was concerned, he claimed that the paramormal powers he demonstrated were real.

Mediums shouldn't be judged on these people; however, IMO, it's entirely reasonable when people point out that these skills (paranormal and mediumship) can be easily faked.




 Written by: Valura





For example, I am most distressed at the former link put up by Robnunchucks in regards to Derran Brown.
Working as a medium I find that people who are genuine fakes and do these sort of experiments are cruel and they disgust me.
Those people that Mr Brown was "fishing" were all in belief that he was doing his best to contact their passed family members, and when they found out he was conning them, that would have been incrdibly painful. How dare he hurt them like that.

There are people out there who have a need to contact passed loved ones to heal and move on with life.
To have people like THAT out there gives the gunenily gifted people a bad name. THAT MAKES ME MAD.

You cant lump mediums, cairvoyants, conjurers, tricksters, magic users like David Blaine and Cruel conmen like Derran Brown all together in the one catergory, they all do totally different things.

Thats like saying all the people who play a ball sport play soccer.



From what I've seen of Derran Brown, I rate his integrity and honesty very highly.

This is a man for whom there is no doubt, had he chosen the 'Gellar' way, could have made a huge reputation and fortune, by making out that he had genuine paranormal powers.

He could, for example, have been a highly charistmatic and successful medium (a fake one).

Instead, he does his stuff, with no pretence.

What Brown (and Houdini) do/did, is very valuable.

Much as you maintain there are genuine mediums- it is undeniably true that many, are out-and-out fakes.

You maintian that they are a minority- others would say they are the majority.

Whichever it is, we all agree that some are fake (as I pointed out earlier, not necessarily intentionally so)- this means that some people are being conned.

What Brown does is to show that deceit in this field is entirely possible, hopefully encouraging some potential victims to be more discerning than they overwise might have been.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Valura


 Written by: onewheeldave


I should also point out that critisism of and issues with, protocols/methodologies is not restricted to investigations into the paranormal- many a purely scientific study has fallen short of the standard required (for example, the experiments claiming to establish 'cold-fusion' ).

It's very, very difficult to ensure that a scientific study is free of flaws or innapropriate influence.



If that is the case then isnt the entire request of testing me a huge waste of time in the first place?

If the 'test' was very difficult to prove to be free from outside inapropiate influence, then it wouldnt be fair to either party, and I have been getting goaded into taking a test which will in the end prove NOTHING.

now thats frusterating.



I'm simply pointing out that truley objective and impartial scientific testing is very difficult- more especially so when the subjects of the test are human beings.

However, many things are difficult- they can still be accomplished.

Good scientists devote their lives to ensuring that protocols and procedures are objective and fair.

Good scientists are experts on spotting the subtle ways in which a protocol may be lacking, or open to innapropriate influence.

IMO, anyone setting up a study to establish the truth of paranormal phenomena, would do well to make it an absolute priorty to get a sceptical scientist on the team, to try and spot flaws they themselves may overlook.

If they didn't consider it a priority, to do so, then, to me, that seems a bit strange.

Certainly, if I was trying to establish something, I would want someone involved from the start, whose sole job was to spot flaws in the techniques I was using.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Valura





If that is the case then isnt the entire request of testing me a huge waste of time in the first place?



If the 'test' was very difficult to prove to be free from outside inapropiate influence, then it wouldnt be fair to either party, and I have been getting goaded into taking a test which will in the end prove NOTHING.



now thats frusterating.





Much as you seem to have found Jeffs posts/suggestions to be annoying/goading, I feel that you could have got something positive out of them.



For example, his proposal that, on his understanding of your claims, that you could theoretically use the abiltiy to see auras to navigate (whilst blindfolded).



Scientifically speaking, it's not a bad suggestion.



I suspect that, for various reasons, auras can't be used for navigation- however, if you'd explained why they can't, that would have given Jeff (and other viewers of this thread) a better understanding of what auras actually are, possibly leading to more appropriate suggestions for 'testing' from Jeff and, overall, a better understanding on both sides.



In all honesty, if I'd been the target of Jeffs arguments, I'd not have felt goaded or attacked- I'd have welcomed them because it's a great opportunity to improve my ability to explain myself to people who otherwise, would remain forever ignorant of what it is I'm trying to say.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:This is a man for whom there is no doubt, had he chosen the 'Gellar' way, could have made a huge reputation and fortune, by making out that he had genuine paranormal powers.
He could, for example, have been a highly charistmatic and successful medium (a fake one).


Thats a big call isnt it? People have a great sense for B.S dave. I think he would be caught out just like all the fake mediums are.

Tell me then about the true and gifted people such as Doris Stokes, Alison Dubois, Gordon Smith, John Edward, and James Van Praagh. How is that explained? Do you believe that they are faking it as Uri Gellar and Derren Brown are?

I can tell you I believe that they would also be horrified at how Derren is so dissmissive of peoples feelings, all in the name of making a quick buck.

The mediums I have named, I believe, are held in the highest regard around the globe for the work that they do, and the professinal and concise way they do it.

As for ole mate Derrans honesty I was not questioning that at any stage. What I am questioning is how he could intentionally hurt those people. That makes me question his ethics as a "performer"

Deceit in any field is entirley possible. But I dont see Derren out fiddling with results of experiments in order to prove that scientists can be fake. He is intentionally trying to debunk spiritualisim and mediumship. How come I wonder?

Mediums are one of the most abused and insulted people on the planet, and all the majority want to do is offer a service. I am often abused and called and a liar, but will continue to offer a helping hand where ever that may be required.

I am constantly around a huge amount of readers. Some are full of it and those people are not held in high regard in our circles due to unethical practise and are NOT recommended to anyone for readings.


People should only attend a medium that they have heard good things about via word of mouth, or seen working on stage and have had a taste of the way that person works.

You would hardly go to a plastic surgeon that has a chop shop in the backyard...no... you do your research and go to one that you feel safe with. Same with a reader.

What Im trying to say is that there are good and bad in all fields, its the way of life... but please try to stop looking down on all readers and mediums as frauds and cheaters, becasue the majority of all I have met are not this way. They are talented and have the real desire to help.


Dave do you think that some thigs said in this thread has turned into a bit of a personal attack on my abilities?


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:I would just like to mention Immanuel Velikovsky who was shunned from the scientific community for controversial theories, as well as Erich von Dniken who was similarly not-well received.

Both of these men presented legitimate scientific theories with legitimate scientific background and they were ostracised from the scientific community.

Doesn't give much incentive for scientists to do something controversial like support spiritualism, does it?


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:Over this weekend i did alot of thinking about this thread and i've finaly come to a conclusion its wrong to question other peoples clames about the universe what ever they may be people should be aloud to think and say whatever they want without fear of been argessively questioned about there belefs by others.

Anyways since i had this revilation the way i look at the world has changed things seem diffrent. I can sence things from people short flashes of images and emotion most of the time its to fast to get anything useful but the more it happens the easer it is to pick things up from them. I've spent all weekend practising and i've even found i can see these flashes without the person been there. anyways i wanted to show you all so you could tell me how you think im doing as i've not been at this very long. So i thought i would try to give Valura a reading, i've got alot of images from you maby one day i'll be able to interprate them all but as i've just started the only ones i seem to be able to grasp are the ones from when your quite young.


the first image i managed to grasp was from when you were a teenager your very tense and focused and your driveing a car someones telling you what to do. its almost like your geting a driveing lession. but that doesn't make any sence because your not driveing on a road your on grass i can see sheep and fences near by as well. but no one seems to be worryed by the fact your not on the road. im not realy sure what to make of it but thats what i saw. The next image i got was from when you younger its hard to tell exacly what age you are but you seem be around 8 or 9 years old your at home and you very upset. Because your cat has died. i can't quite get what the cats name was but it was something like funky the cat or maby monkey the cat i can't quite tell. But your particualy upset because it wasn't a natural death something happend that cut your cats life short unexpectadly. i'm afrade thats all i can see but that was the clearist image i've managed to get so far. i also picked one up which i wont disclose in full to protect your modisty but again its from when you were younger in it your siting on the sofa watching quantom leap on tv. and i'll simply say you were haveing some very intresting thoughts about about sam beckett wink

how did i do?


My nunchucks vital statictics biggrin

weight: 500g
handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave



Much as you seem to have found Jeffs posts/suggestions to be annoying/goading, I feel that you could have got something positive out of them.

For example, his proposal that, on his understanding of your claims, that you could theoretically use the abiltiy to see auras to navigate (whilst blindfolded).

Scientifically speaking, it's not a bad suggestion.

I suspect that, for various reasons, auras can't be used for navigation- however, if you'd explained why they can't, that would have given Jeff (and other viewers of this thread) a better understanding of what auras actually are, possibly leading to more appropriate suggestions for 'testing' from Jeff and, overall, a better understanding on both sides.

In all honesty, if I'd been the target of Jeffs arguments, I'd not have felt goaded or attacked- I'd have welcomed them because it's a great opportunity to improve my ability to explain myself to people who otherwise, would remain forever ignorant of what it is I'm trying to say.



thats a good call there. I do believe that I was behaving rather defensivly by that time as it was being suggested that I had to prove myself and the very core of my beliefs and values. I found that rather unfair.

I didnt even think about explaining why the test wouldn't be achievable.

Auras are six feet wide. Everyones aura would meld together making it very difficult to navigate anywhere.

Plus its very tiring looking at one persons energy imprint.... having even two or three at once would be overwhelming for any reader I believe.

Plus I wouldnt be unable to be blindfolded immediatley because I personally would have to look at the persons body or scan them with my hands to get the imprint and then I would be able to still see it and see it change after I was blindfolded.

Plus all mediums use and connect withtheir abilities differently so it would be unfair to use all the smae tests on different mediums.

Many would fail as the tests would not be conductive to the way they personally work...


does that help?
shrug


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol

sam beckett?!?!

AHAHAHAHAHAA! I used to have a big crush on him.


wink

but rob...

I know what your doing. wink


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:Here are the quotes from my intro thread rob....
Dont try to fool a psychic...

Page 12
hahahaha
Punky brewster!!! I remember that show...I called my cat PUNKY after her, when I was 9. Then my cat gotten runned over. oh. I remember that.

Page 13
oh sweetie!!lol
Im a born and bred Kiwi and learnt how to drive in a sheep paddock in the wairarapa...


page 16

LOL @ quantum leap quote..I had the biggest crush on that guy when I was little...

Anyway...keep trying...
ubblol


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:this is just getting silly! ubblol

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:ahh busted well spoted i had hoped not to use hop as i figured you might remember the posts unfortunaly i couldn't find your surname anyware so i had to resort to just the stuff on hop biggrin as it was a very old thread i hoped you'ed forgoten by now if you've got someones full name its alot easyer smile



of course its intresting to note i did learn alot about you in reading all your old threads smile



anyways perhaps you'ed like to show me how its done properly? i'ed be very intrested to see what you can read from me



also if the navigation test is slightly inaproprate what about the curtain test where you detect people behind a curtain by there aura if of course you were aloud to approach and scan the person first before we put behind the curtain would that work?

EDITED_BY: robnunchucks (1165842559)


My nunchucks vital statictics biggrin

weight: 500g
handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:I went dancing the other night and when I was finished I met a girl outside who is closer to pure love than any other person I know.



She completly tripped out on my aura. Just as I had completly tripped out on my dancing. I could literally feel the buzz of energy above my head that she was looking at...


Love is the law.

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:wheee! bring some love into this thread!

ubblove


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Well,



If anyone is willing to perform an open minded exploration of auras I would be willing to help.



Simply list exactly what your claims are and we can devise a few simple experimental tests to ascertain their validity. If that goes well we could build a few more in depth ones. If you wish to remain close minded to alternative possibilities that's your choice. If you wish to simply attack me that's your choice as well. If you want to call me close minded, ask yourself whether you really are open to the other possibilities first.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:I feel for you jeff.

Isnt it possible to take photos fo Auras? I see to remember a friend of mine doing this a few years ago. his was bright red. And very strong and well shaped. Maybe this has already been discussed but I wont ever have tiome to read all this thread in work...

Its interesting that some people cannot accept something without unshakable proof. Up to and including the belief that it may be true for others even though otherwise untestable. And its also interesting that others are will to accept the beliefs of others based on that alone, acceptance.

I can completly change reality with the power of my mind. I cant prove it though wink


Love is the law.

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:The technique for photographing aura's is called kirlian photography.
However many sceptics have disputed the claims made concerning auras and kirlian photography.


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:May I take it that no-one is interested in being open minded? frown

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:ubblol i admire your persistence in the belief of the supremacy of logic and experimental theory in the universe... but would anyone really change their views based on an experiment organised by a bunch of people youve never met, over the internet?



people are very open-minded here jeff - but not necessarily as scientifically minded as you - and dont always feel the need to prove every single basis of their personal view of the universe using hypothesis, experiments, data, statics, conclusions, and references smile

EDITED_BY: Dentrassi (1165841259)


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Valura


 Written by: OWD


This is a man for whom there is no doubt, had he chosen the 'Gellar' way, could have made a huge reputation and fortune, by making out that he had genuine paranormal powers.
He could, for example, have been a highly charistmatic and successful medium (a fake one).




Thats a big call isnt it? People have a great sense for B.S dave. I think he would be caught out just like all the fake mediums are.




And,some people do not have a great sense of B.S. Valura smile

Hence the number who have fallen prey to fake mediums/healers, some of these tragic stories have been covered by respectable TV documentaries.

Much of this discussion comes down to opinions, but, before continuing, I will state that this-

 Written by:


caught out just like all the fake mediums are.




Is almost certainly false- given that so many have been exposed, it would, IMO, be naive to doubt that some escape exposure and continue to operate.

Where Derran Brown is concerned, having seen what he can do, personally I have no doubt whatsoever, that, if he'd wished, he could have taken an alternative route as a fake medium.

I believe he would have very little difficulty finding gullible individuals who would happily hand over their cash and, go on to recommend him highly to friends (IMO).

Let me make this VERY CLEAR, cos I don't want to be falsley accused like Jeff has been-

I have not, and am not, saying that all mediums/energy healers are fake.

Simply that some are (whether intentionally or not)).



 Written by: Valura


Dave do you think that some thigs said in this thread has turned into a bit of a personal attack on my abilities?



Personally, if we broadly split the commenters of this thread into two groups- the 'believers' vs the 'sceptics'; in all honesty, I've felt/seen more insults/attacks from individuals (not you Valura) in the believers camp.

Telling Jeff to 'Get Laid' not only contributes nothing, but is an attempt to insult.

My feelings of any kind of 'alternative spirituality' is that the highest benefit is that of making the practitioners better people- more objective, less hostile, more tolerant etc.

That, IMO, on this thread, has been lacking.

If, Jeff had been personally insulting, the appropriate response would not be for your friends/supporters to be insulting back (IMO).

Additionally, as an energy-healer, and one who obviously has committed a lot of time, thought and effort into her work, I would encourage you to not take suggestions for proof as personal attacks.

It's entirely up to you whether you wish to engage with such requests, but , to view them as personal attacks is, IMO, to misunderstand their intent.

As you may know, my 'Ultimate Theory of Reality' thread has seen recent activity.

Pretty much every reply in that 10-page thread has been an attempt to bring the theory down- I welcome it; they give me a better understanding of the theory and enable me to better present it to sceptics.

Suppose some-one posted 'Your theory, from a scientific perspective, is rubbish'.

Hopefully, they'd try to say why, but, even if they didn't, my response would be, in that instance, to agree fully.

UToR, from a scientific perspective, is incredibly weak, if only for the fact that it doesn't, as far as I can tell, provide a single observational prediction that could be tested.

That's OK, UToR is not a scientific theory and I feel no need for scientific approval.

I'd suggest Valura, that a similar stance may be approriate for you.

To your credit, you have previously admitted that you don't have a good grasp of scientific method.

I'd also suggest that it would be useful for you to really try and get into the head of sceptical positions like Jeff.

As far as I can tell, he's been pretty sincere and reasonable- understanding that people like Jeff are not closed-minded bigots trying to bring down alternative views of reality, is going to be to the benefit of both parties.

And, to finish, to your credit Valura, despite, IMO, taking some things too personally, you've shown a fair bit of restraint and been honest and objective; more so than some of the people defending/supporting you.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:Jeff, thats not fair. Not wanting to do things your way is not being closed minded. It might simply mean that people dont want to do things your way. Which is ok really...

Not everyone needs proof the way you do dude... and I dont think its being nice to label us closed minded because we dont submit to your ideas.

I believe in many things. I would be happy to have someone come up with a test that could prove them. But I dont need it. I dont believe any less because those tests havent been done on me and on top of that, I am willing to keep exploring to see how much I can see.

This does not make me closed minded except in the eyes of those who label me so.


Love is the law.

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:depends what you meen about photographing auras the tequnique that your properly refering to is here http://skepdic.com/kirlian.html
of course there is nothing unusal or mistical about it about it its a very well understood phyical effect.



if a belefe is true for one person and not for others this would be very easy to check eg supose i beleaved 2+2=5 if it was true for me but not for you we could check that by doing 2+2 on a caculator you would see a 4 appear on the screen but i would see a 5 however this doesn't happen we both see the same result. the same is true for other scientif experiments though of course people interprate the results in diffrent ways the raw results are the same regardles of whos reading the readout. this implys that things are universaly true or the world would be a very very confusing place where half the people would see one thing and the other half would see another.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:I still cling to the opinion that people are inherently good, reasonable and open minded, but this thread has certainly shaken my faith in all three.



If someone could demonstrate their alledged abilities under scientific settings I would certainly take it seriously. But I've certainly realised that other people on this thread aren't open minded at all, as I seem to be the only person who would be willing to change. frown


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:But thats not true for all of us jeff...

dont let em beat you down...


Love is the law.

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted: Written by: robnunchucks


if a belefe is true for one person and not for others this would be very easy to check eg supose i beleaved 2+2=5 if it was true for me but not for you we could check that by doing 2+2 on a caculator you would see a 4 appear on the screen but i would see a 5 however this doesn't happen we both see the same result. This implys that things are universaly true or the world would be a very very confusing place.



Yes, but I believe in faeries and my sister doesnt. Can fairies count?


Love is the law.

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:if you caught a fairy in a jar and then took it back and showed your sister if the existance of fairys is universaly true you would both see the fairy in the jar.



however if one of you did and the other didn't. then there are two posibiltys, one of you is delusional or diffrent things realy are true for diffrent people we could test which of these it is, with a simple experiment. we have something hidden behind a sheat or in a box you dont know what. the fairy goes and looks at what it is then tells you what it is.



if diffrent things are true for diffrent people then you should be able to corretly guess the contence of the box every time with help from your fairy. even though your sister can't see, touch , smell, hear the fairy





i'ed like to second jeffs post we seem to have reached an impass in the debate



-those that dont need proof beleave

-those that need proof dont beleave

-those that could supply proof beleave they dont have to.



until one of the above changes i dont see how we can do much more than talk in circles frown



by proof i meen a scientificly valid experimental test. would everyone agree thats the stage we've reached or is it just me who thinks this?

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:Jeff if you have not experienced meditation and the awakening of energies within yourself i would suggest that you try a few different forms of meditation until you find one that works for you. Why? well im sure there is a physical phenomenon that could be measured to test it but unless you know what it is thats alot of trial and error and finding ppl willing to put in the time to "research" it with you could be tricky unless you have loads of $$$ so compensate them for their time.

So i think that the whole energy stuff is going to have to be something that you have to experience to be able to investigate it, in much the same way that you can tell someone who is blind every single fact there is about the colour red they will never be able to move beyond the intellectualisation of the colour red as they havnt actually experienced it.

in much the same way that you can read all day about tantra but until you actually feel your partners energy dance with yours and lose the sensation of self you can never really get it. so maybe you should take on some of the burden of "proof" yourself as your the one that will benifit from it not the ppl who have their own experiences.

back ontopic

From time to time when i meet someone who is really pashionate about what they are talking about (usually at a semiare) i will be able to see everything but at the same time i half cant its like everything around them goes bright (kind of the same sort of experience you get when going from a really dark room to outside but more sharper with the details of the person). The guy who introduced me to meditation told me that i was seeing their aura, something along the lines of an enthusiastic student with an enthusiastic teacher creating an energetic bond.

Valura still waiting for that pm on stuff to read smile


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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