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The Tea FairySILVER Member
old hand
853 posts
Location: Behind you...


Posted:
Hi all

I've been studying the use of complementary therapies in palliative care for a research project at Uni. I've been looking at how these often clinically unproven therapies are being integrated into conventional medical care for the dying, the reasons for it and the benefits of it e.t.c.

One of the things I've been up to is watching a therapist give reiki treatments to patients. I started talking to the therapist afterwards about the 'energy body' and if she can see it. She says she just feels the energy, but cannot see it.

I personally would like to believe that we each have an aura or 'energy body', but at the same time I don't like buying into things without a healthy dose of scepticism also. So I was wondering what you guys all think...

If anyone also wants to argue for or against auras, or give their personal experiences with 'energy', I'm interested in whatever you guys have to say.

Cheers.

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


StoutBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
Banshee Cat, I don't mean to sound flippant, but....been there, done that. I spent several years ( in the 80's ) exploring ( if paranormal or supernatural won't do ) metaphysical phemenenon, with the ideal that I too could devellop my ( apparently ) latent abilities in this field....I failed miserably.

Maybe I was just being a rebel, and rejecting my Christian upbringing by looking to the alternative, maybe I was rejecting the "norm" in favour of the " alternative" or maybe I was just plain interested, but fact is I did it. Did I mention that I failed ?

I went through the whole gamut, I won't bore you with a list, but suffice to say the only emotion I experienced during these explorations was disappointment. well, the net emotion anyway.

Now I'll admit ( from a scientific perspective ) that I'm in no way qualified to run a respectable scientific experiment, but that's really beside the point, seeing as how others have, and made their findings public here on the internet, so I read those.

Here's a case in point....firewalking. Now for years I believed that firewalking involved specially training your mind to overcome certain physical realities, like red hot coals won't burn me because I've entered a "special" mindset. Along comes the discovery channel with an explanation that mindset has nothing to do with it, and gives me an explanation just as to how and why firewalking works, suddenly, I'm a believer. Not in the way I had to originally wanted to believe, but in a way that I could understand.

I believe, now, that I can walk on fire, due to the science of the whole thing, but unfortunatly not due to the original way that I wanted to believe. Point is, science made me a believer in my abilities to firewalk,,and I'm hoping it could do the same for my ability to see auras. So far,,it can't.

Andrea, you made a comment about something, and I can't remember what it was over on another thread about this something that had healing properties and you claimed that even if the healing properties were due to the placebo effect, it doesn't matter. And truer words were never spoken. Really who cares how some of this stuff works, and if it works by comforting someone , or making them feel better, then great, after all, as Firespirit said a couple of pages back, that's what it's all about.

It's my belief that comfort and reassurance is what the metaphysical is all about, hence my lumping it in as spirituality. Simplistic ? maybe.

I could make an arguement as to how people are "asking" me to belive something, but I won't, I'll just say that, on a daily basis, I'm exposed to several different belief systems and I'm genuinely curious as to how those people come to the conclusion that the belief system that they subscribe to is the correct one. I'll accept "it works for me" as an answer. hug smile

I really don't think any minds are going to be changed by this thread, but it sure makes for an interesting read with my morning coffee.

Rob, yes I noticed the male/female ratio, but all I can infer from it is that the male believers and female skeptics don't want to come out and play.

robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
Rob, yes I noticed the male/female ratio, but all I can infer from it is that the male believers and female skeptics don't want to come out and play.



ether that or females are more inclinded to beleave and males are more inclinded to be sceptical ether way its an intresting phenominon smile
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BansheeCatBRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada


Posted:
Stout, my question for you was sincere, and thanks for answering. If you have really done that kind of work, and still dont have the experience of auras, than I would suggest just letting it gently go for yourself, at any rate. Why worry about it or push against your own set of experiences? You dont need anyone elses...



Robnunchucks, I am in the curious camp, not sceptics or believers. My camp is more like a happy little party of adventurers really, we like to consider things in all sorts of different ways and are always prepared to flow in a variety of directions.



I have had a number of experiences, some private some shared that definitely do not fit in with our current scientific understandings of what is possible.So when I need a different explanation to help me process those awarenesses, I go to other sources of information.I value and respect many kinds of knowledge and wisdom. To me it is all just a set of systems, toys and tools for exploration of our environment; internal, external, and how they relate.





**Where I thought it useful I did point out illogical arguments... When people were trying to use logical as an "argument".



I have no problem with illogic when it surfaces within the context of just sharing perceptions, awareness, experience-they are often illogical.



But if you want to use science, or logic, it serves us well to try and use it properly. You learn more that way, I think.

PS-

The Island I live on has a gazillion male reiki/aura healers!!!! it would certainly make you question a gender hypothesis...

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."


Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
 Written by: robnunchucks


Rob, yes I noticed the male/female ratio, but all I can infer from it is that the male believers and female skeptics don't want to come out and play.

ether that or females are more inclinded to beleave and males are more inclinded to be sceptical ether way its an intresting phenominon smile



It could possibly be the "mother" instinct and female connection with the world (look at the many animistic religions). Or the nature of men vs women in the nature they communicate; women talk and discuss with everyone as equals and heard, but men are more blunt with a heirachy established in their speech.

And yes, Zipf's Law appears in many places, but it can't be explained other than a "phenomenon". Why can't other things also be unexplained phenomenons? The relevance is that there is unexplained 97% of our dna that scientists, don't understand and it is a pattern repeated in mathematics and nature.
I'm trying to give you scientific examples of where science admit that they currently can't explain everything.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


Mascotenthusiast
301 posts

Posted:
Scientists will always admit that they can't explain everything. Explaining everything is an unattainable goal. Only a fool or a madman would claim to know everything.

In the future we will almost certainly discover the reason for "Junk DNA", already there are several theories out there being tested and subjected to scrutiny. When we discover this there will be some other hole in our understanding. The fact that we cannot explain everthing through science should not be a good reason for wild speculation. When lighting was unexplained it was no doubt considered the wrath of the gods.

There is a word for the position that everything currently not understood by science is magic/supernatural/God, "God of the Gaps". The theory that everything we don't understand can be attributed to God or supernatural forces.

Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
The Island I live on has a gazillion male reiki/aura healers!!!! it would certainly make you question a gender hypothesis.



it wasn't i hypthoisis it was more of a random museing something i found intresting as it didn't fit with what i would have expected thats all maby i shouldn't have used the word phenomion at the very most its a phenomion that only exists on hop smile



And yes, Zipf's Law appears in many places, but it can't be explained other than a "phenomenon". Why can't other things also be unexplained phenomenons? The relevance is that there is unexplained 97% of our dna that scientists, don't understand and it is a pattern repeated in mathematics and nature.



lol ok fair enough well first off i'ed like to say of course scientists dont understand everything if they did we wouldn't need science any more so i agree with you totaly on that point. but they do understand some things auras phycics etc have been studys alot and the studys (when they've been done) have always show that phycics and aura readers simply can't do what they say they can in experiments. and show no evidence that they are any diffrent from the rest of us. so while scientists can't explain everything in this case the problem is theres nothing to explain in the first place. if there was something there that needed explaining science would be all over it thats what sicence does works on the unexplained



also the example you gave is a poor one as it is actualy understod zipf's law represents systems that store information. junk DNA isn't random its DNA that was once used but isn't any more hence why its has an informational representation still in it.



a better example would be that scientists still can't explain what would happen at the center of a black hole because reltivity and quantum mechanics both only work in there respective fields the very big and the very small when you have something thats very big and very small they brake down smile
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jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
 Written by: Rouge Dragon


 Written by: robnunchucks


Rob, yes I noticed the male/female ratio, but all I can infer from it is that the male believers and female skeptics don't want to come out and play.

ether that or females are more inclinded to beleave and males are more inclinded to be sceptical ether way its an intresting phenominon smile



It could possibly be the "mother" instinct and female connection with the world (look at the many animistic religions). Or the nature of men vs women in the nature they communicate; women talk and discuss with everyone as equals and heard, but men are more blunt with a heirachy established in their speech.


I think that's a sexist oversimplification. Women can very quickly form hierarchys, and ignore the opinions of others. Conversely most of the men I know, including myself, will patiently listen to everyone.

 Written by: Rouge Dragon


And yes, Zipf's Law appears in many places, but it can't be explained other than a "phenomenon". Why can't other things also be unexplained phenomenons? The relevance is that there is unexplained 97% of our dna that scientists, don't understand and it is a pattern repeated in mathematics and nature.
I'm trying to give you scientific examples of where science admit that they currently can't explain everything.


No one has ever claimed they could explain everything. It is irrelevant to the discussion anyway, since there have been no relevant unexplained phenomenon raised so far outside of anecdotes.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


StoutBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
To, me, part of the appeal of science is the willingness to admit holes in "the knowledge"

What is the nature of light? is it a wave? or a particle ? well we have arguments supporting both ideas, and I've never heard of a scientist blindly accepting one theory while outright rejecting the other, sure, the scientist may have a preference, but he can't deny the validity of the other.

robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
infact thanks to the wonder of quantum mechanics its both smile just depends wether your watching it or not smile

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ado-pGOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland


Posted:
 Written by: jeff


Conversely most of the men I know, including myself, will patiently listen to everyone.



ubblol

Love is the law.


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
what ever you may think about jeff ado he has lissen hes just not agreed with whats been said.

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ado-pGOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland


Posted:
I happen to like Jeff, Rob. I wouldnt describe him as patient though. smile



Sorry for reffering to you in the third person Jeff.

Love is the law.


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
lol ok fair enough man sorry for jumping to conclusions biggrin
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Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
 Written by: jeff(fake)



 Written by: Rouge Dragon



 Written by: robnunchucks



Rob, yes I noticed the male/female ratio, but all I can infer from it is that the male believers and female skeptics don't want to come out and play.



ether that or females are more inclinded to beleave and males are more inclinded to be sceptical ether way its an intresting phenominon smile





It could possibly be the "mother" instinct and female connection with the world (look at the many animistic religions). Or the nature of men vs women in the nature they communicate; women talk and discuss with everyone as equals and heard, but men are more blunt with a heirachy established in their speech.



I think that's a sexist oversimplification. Women can very quickly form hierarchys, and ignore the opinions of others. Conversely most of the men I know, including myself, will patiently listen to everyone.







you use the research and papers you learn in science class in here. I'll use the ones I use in linguistics class and in linguistics papers. Unless of course linguistics isn't cool enough for you either. And i am yet to hear you listen patiently to others.



Talk about zipf's law later. i have to get to class.
EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1166588804)

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
 Written by: rob


also the example you gave is a poor one as it is actualy understod zipf's law represents systems that store information. junk DNA isn't random its DNA that was once used but isn't any more hence why its has an informational representation still in it.



I deliberately provided a simple example as I wanted to provide an example that everyone could understand, not just the science buffs. I am sorry if you feel that it was "poor" simply because it provided science in laymans terms.
dna that was once used? so youre saying that because it is no longer used it can no longer be relevant at all? step outside your modern science box.

 Written by: jeff


No one has ever claimed they could explain everything. It is irrelevant to the discussion anyway, since there have been no relevant unexplained phenomenon raised so far outside of anecdotes.



no one? sorry, but listening to you i'd think that science could explain everything! no unexplained phenomenon outside anecdotes? you count them as irrelivant cos your precious science cant explain them! and i think that you're saying what i'm trying to bring up as irrellevant because its science which doesnt support your argument. Because what am i? i'm not a science student! Therefore how dare I even suggest that i might know some things about science and bring them into an argument?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


ValuraSILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Posted:
 Written by: jeff(fake)


I think that's a sexist oversimplification. Women can very quickly form hierarchy's, and ignore the opinions of others. Conversely most of the men I know, including myself, will patiently listen to everyone.




what a huge steaming pile of sexist filth.

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"


Mascotenthusiast
301 posts

Posted:
 Written by: jeff(fake)


 Written by: Rouge Dragon


 Written by: robnunchucks


Rob, yes I noticed the male/female ratio, but all I can infer from it is that the male believers and female skeptics don't want to come out and play.

ether that or females are more inclinded to beleave and males are more inclinded to be sceptical ether way its an intresting phenominon smile



It could possibly be the "mother" instinct and female connection with the world (look at the many animistic religions). Or the nature of men vs women in the nature they communicate; women talk and discuss with everyone as equals and heard, but men are more blunt with a heirachy established in their speech.


I think that's a sexist oversimplification. Women can very quickly form hierarchys, and ignore the opinions of others. Conversely most of the men I know, including myself, will patiently listen to everyone.




This conversation has taken a rather nasty turn. To be fair to Jeff he was not saying that women are more likely to form hierarchies or that men are better at listening. He was just saying that these qualities are present in both genders in response to Rouge's post. It seems unfair to accuse him of sexism.

I think Rouge's example of "Junk DNA" as something science cannot currently explain is perfectly valid and a good example. Rouge is right to point out that science cannot explain everything. Advocates of a scientific approach must learn to live with the knowlege that there may be things they will never know.

Isaac Newton said that the more he discovered the more he realised he didn't know. He felt like a boy skimming stones on the edges of a vast undiscovered ocean.

Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
I deliberately provided a simple example as I wanted to provide an example that everyone could understand, not just the science buffs. I am sorry if you feel that it was "poor" simply because it provided science in laymans terms.

dna that was once used? so youre saying that because it is no longer used it can no longer be relevant at all? step outside your modern science box.




did anyone bother to read my post frown ok let me try again cos i think several people have got the wrong end of the stick.



firstly science can't explain everything this is fine i said that several times.



my point about junk DNA and zipfs laws was simply that it is a bad example of sicence not understanding everything because it is a fact that was well understood by science.



i then suggested that what happens inside a black hole would have been a better example because that is not currently understood by science.



i have no problem with science been explained in layterms im all for it its the best way to spread understanding and reason to people that may be unwilling to go into the subject in greater deepths.



as for the bit about it not been relivient because its no longer used you've totaly missunderstood what i was saying so i'll try again useing slightly more lay terms wink



the point is zipf's law occures in systems that have some kind of informational content or underlying order. music language etc.



so if it is not random gibberish it tends to display zipf's law.



junk DNA is DNA that was once back in our evolutionary past, active DNA. meening it was once used as part of the code to create a liveing thing.



active DNA can't be random jibberish as it is used to create a liveing creature. at some point that DNA was switched off and stoped been used by the evolutianry proccess.



but while the DNA is not been used now it was at some point and so encoded information. as a result we would expect it to exibit zipf's law and it does.



ergo there is nothing to explain here we find exacly what we expect we would that Junk DNA follows Zipfs law.



i would hope you now understand what i was saying if you still dont understand all or part of it i'ed be happy to go over it in more detail or perhaps useing analogys if that would be usefull smile
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BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
More things about junk DNA if that matters at all:



- some of it has come to be created through duplication and mutation, events that happen. They may not make sense at first look, but that's how evolution works. Most changes are either deadly or don't make a difference in the end, but since evolution is not happening with a purpose in mind, you get them.



- While it's in a way a waste of energy for a cell to have to make new copies of all the unused DNA when it divides, it's got its advantages, too. Like, when you smoke, and that causes a mutation in your DNA. If that's in an unused bit, it won't do harm.



Oh, and as a representative of the female skeptic minority: Stop being silly with the girls/boys stuff, or I'll start a support group hug

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
Oh, and as a representative of the female skeptic minority: Stop being silly with the girls/boys stuff, or I'll start a support group

hehe very true glad to have a girl with the skeptics our side was distinctly short of evil scientist overlady's biggrin

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BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
Cheers, Rob. I was not quite sure if overlady really is the female equivalent of an overlord, but it sounds a good enough title for me smile

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
just had a quick look i think overlady is actualy the equivelent of overload acording to wikapedia anyway smile

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The Tea FairySILVER Member
old hand
853 posts
Location: Behind you...


Posted:
Hi Guys and Gals

Wow, I never expected this topic to go on for quite this long. Thanks to everyone for sharing their ideas, beliefs, musings and scientific knowledge.

I'm taking part in a university experiment tomorrow about auras! I'm not sure exactly what the hypothesis or methodology is yet, but I'll find out what it's all about and let you know. At the moment I just have to fill out a NEO-FFI test questionaire and tomorrow I have to go and fill in another questionnaire and get a 'scan' of my aura (again, not sure what techniques or technology is being used but if I can find out I'll let you know). Apparently I'll get a 'photo' of my aura scan to take home with me.

I'm really not sure what it's all about, but I'll try and find out and post links when/if the results are published.

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


SkattoGOLD Member
Walking on whims...
687 posts
Location: Eastbourne, UK


Posted:
Whilst I dont believe people having energy aura's, I do believe some people have a sort of "presence."

I can tend to just look at a complete stranger, and just know thinks about their personality and how they are. And eight times out of ten I'm right... you could call it an aura, you could just call it being a good judge of character, or it could just be the character that the individual person is projecting through their clothing, attitude and facial expression.

Some individuals seem to have a commanding and powerful aura/presence about them; maybe its the way they look, the way they stand, the way they carry themselves or something completely different. Other times you can just look at someone and tell if they are a jester or a wacky comedian, or if someone is a serious worker and an intelligent thinker. Just by first impressions alone.


Auras in a spiritual sense though, no I dont believe in. smile Would be cool though.

Skatto

"Fly like a mouse,
Run like a cushion,
Be the small bookcase."

For goodness sake, don't aggravate the otters!!!


The Tea FairySILVER Member
old hand
853 posts
Location: Behind you...


Posted:
Well, I've just had my aura scanned and got the picture back. My poor aura looks a bit ill! They think there may have been a program error in the analysis because I have a huge blue jet coming out of my right shoulder and they're not sure why!

The technique is called Gas Discharge Visualisation, they just scan your finger tips a couple of times and use the data to map out the rest of the body. It's apparently a new improved form of Kirlian photography, but I still don't have exact details (I do plan to find out more though).

The experiment is to do with if the aura scan images can show signs of the body being under stress, physically or emotionally (mine looks very stressed!). I'll let you know what the results are if anyhting significant comes up.

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
I'd be stressed, too, if there was a jet coming out of my shoulder!!! eek

(sorry, couldn't be resisted, not meant as a p!sstake hug)

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
 Written by: The Tea Fairy

...they just scan your finger tips a couple of times and use the data to map out the rest of the body.


Am I reading that right? Because it certainly seems a little wacky. umm

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


The Tea FairySILVER Member
old hand
853 posts
Location: Behind you...


Posted:
That's ok Birgit, I could have phrased it better! hug

Yeah, it was a little 'whacky'! There was this machine hooked up to a computer with some kind of lens on it, I had to press each fingertip against the glass and have it 'scanned', then again with some kind of filter placed on the lens. The picture had all the fingerprint scans on it, and each one was split into sections which apparently relate to certain organs and bits of the body. They use these to 'map out' a colour image around the body.

I wasn't really given much of an explanation as to what all the colours and shapes mean, just that the more symmetrical the pattern, the healthier the body is. But then I wasn't going for a 'reading', it was just an experiment.

Again, I'll post more about the study when I know more. Ideally I'd like to see a proper report, with hypothesis, methodology etc.

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
 Written by: The Tea Fairy

Yeah, it was a little 'whacky'! There was this machine hooked up to a computer with some kind of lens on it, I had to press each fingertip against the glass and have it 'scanned', then again with some kind of filter placed on the lens. The picture had all the fingerprint scans on it, and each one was split into sections which apparently relate to certain organs and bits of the body. They use these to 'map out' a colour image around the body.



Sounds like some fringe varient of reflexology, rather than aura reading. I wouldn't hold out much hope for it being a valid experiment, that stuff's total BS.



EDIT: Looked into it. It's basically a con/pseudoscience from a Russian fruitcake. Here's a link to their website.



"our Consciousness may be holographically encoded in the electro-photonic interference pattern of Light that surrounds every cell of our body" ubblol



Seems they've got quite a good little cottage industry going in "healings" and some of the most hidious shirts I've ever seen, which supposedly enhance your "electro-photonic interference patter" rolleyes

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


The Tea FairySILVER Member
old hand
853 posts
Location: Behind you...


Posted:
Hey Jeff, I'm not implying that the technique works but the experiment is serious! It might even give us some scientific proof that the technique is indeed BS, then we can all stop arguing. The guy who is conducting the research is

Paul Dobson BSc PhD AFBPsS C.Psychol
Senior Lecturer in Organisational Behaviour

He worked hard to get all those letters after his name, I don't think he'd waste his time if he didn't think it was significant, even if it does just prove the technique is false. I'm not mocking the science until I've seen the full report, maybe you should wait to see the methodology and analysis before you proclaim it as invalid? smile

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


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