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The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:Hi all

I've been studying the use of complementary therapies in palliative care for a research project at Uni. I've been looking at how these often clinically unproven therapies are being integrated into conventional medical care for the dying, the reasons for it and the benefits of it e.t.c.

One of the things I've been up to is watching a therapist give reiki treatments to patients. I started talking to the therapist afterwards about the 'energy body' and if she can see it. She says she just feels the energy, but cannot see it.

I personally would like to believe that we each have an aura or 'energy body', but at the same time I don't like buying into things without a healthy dose of scepticism also. So I was wondering what you guys all think...

If anyone also wants to argue for or against auras, or give their personal experiences with 'energy', I'm interested in whatever you guys have to say.

Cheers.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:I don't know what it is, all I know is that sometimes I can feel energy or some kind of force coming from people's bodies.

Maybe it's an aura, maybe it's not. I don't know!


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:ok how about this, maybe me, Valura, and any other people who experience aura's just have something wrong in the brain



that sounds a very reasonble conclustion but it would be incorect to say that something was wrong with you your brain it just has a diffrent setup than most. some of the worlds greatists musicens are suspected to have suffered Synaesthetia as well as many great artsts and poets as well. in afew rare cases it has also results in people with superhuman mathmatical ability, it has also been shown that people with certian types of Synaesthetia can perform certain tasks far better than those without it.



everyones brain is set up diffrently for example im dislexic this has some negitive effects on me such as

* Difficulties with reading

* Difficulties with spelling and grammar

* Poor physical co-ordination and handwriting

* Poor organisation skills and planning skills

* Difficulties working within time limits

* Difficulties with thinking and working in sequences

* Visual difficulties, such as blurring and distortion of print

* Poor short-term memory



but it also has some positive effects



# Good Visual and Spatial skills

# Good at creating novel designs

# Good social skills

# Advanced critical thinking

# Good at problem solving

# Advanced verbal skills



ref http://www.stokecoll.ac.uk/dyslexia/effects.htm
br>


some people have numbers synaesthesia and see diffrent numbers as diffrent colours, they can pick a number 3 out of a page full of 5's instantly while it takes non Synaesthes much longer to find the 3.



its likely the reading ability is simmilar instead of number Synaesthetia you have emotional Synaesthetia. and just as number Synaesthetia gives advatages working with numbers, emotional Synaesthetia gives advantages working with feeling and reading others.



as i said before its like you've got a heads up display like in an aircraft that gives you summerys of all the little subutal signs someone is giveing off thought there body language, how they dress tone of voice etc. but instead of haveing to work it all out your self your subcontious is doing the work and showing you a summery of what its figured out as an aura.



i would say that you brain works diffrently to the rest of us but that is never a bad thing biggrin diffrent kind of brains are needed for diffrent kind of problems

EDITED_BY: robnunchucks (1166032206)


My nunchucks vital statictics biggrin

weight: 500g
handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Link to the news piece I found has been added to my post above for conveniences sake.

Of course, we aren't saying that perception of aura's definitely is a form of synaesthetia. To determine that we would need to conduct tests to establish which regions of the brain are activated and how that compares with others with synaesthetia, and rule out all other explanations.

It might not be the right explanation, but it is testable. If it turned out to be wrong, we would reject it and move on. That's the key difference between science and faith.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:very true smile its important to point out at this stage that emotion-color synaesthesia is an unproven hypothisis. it would be very intresting to see what testing shows though.



i've also got afew jurnals on emotional synaesthesia if anyones intrested in reading about it.

http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15326934crj1001_1?cookieSet=1&journalCode=crj
br>
http://www.springerlink.com/content/f06276p6n0103763/
br>
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0094-0496(197402)1%3A1<49%3ATCOE>2.0.CO%3B2-F
br>


also jo have you ever thought of testing your self if you can feel auras a good test would be to blind fold your self then have someone put there hand close to one of yours and see if you can tell which hand there close to.

EDITED_BY: robnunchucks (1166033993)


My nunchucks vital statictics biggrin

weight: 500g
handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:Rob, just wanted to point out that the "auras' seen with migraine symptoms are not the same thing as the auras healers are referring to in terms of energy, chakras etc. It is a confusing case of the same word being used to describe different things altogether.

Though the sparkly "auras' of migraines are a pretty interesting sensation all on their own!And a great excuse to relax with a cup of coffee!

Also, at some point you mentionned that people who perceive auras have never actually checked to know if it exists only within their head. Many have! Even on this thread, examples have been given to demonstrate that- just not by scientific methodology. People like Valura have stated that they use the information of the experience of auras in number of different ways, healing comes up often as one.

When you take something you perceive in your head, and apply it to have an effect on someone else in the physical world, with mutually perceivable results, it is a pretty clear demonstration to those involved that it is not "just" in your head. Doing this repeatedly affirms that awareness as a concrete reality so it is not surprising one may become uninterested in proving it to anyone-- they are just doing it. Belief is irrelevant.

Again, it is difficult and somewhat silly to convince someone that they are not experiencing something that they are in fact experiencing, regardless of if you attempt to use scientific method . Anaolgy: A patient goes to the doctor, and say I am in pain. After a thorough medical examination, the doctor can not find anything that would cause pain, so states that the pain must be in their head- or worse yet, that they must not be in pain.

But the fact remains , to the patient, the doctor is denying a direct their direct experience of their world. It is not useful... The patient still leaves the clinic in pain, and turns to other ways of dealing with it...

Likely, there *was* actual some source of pain; mental or physical, but the doctor was just unable at that point to find it, so was more comfortable denying its existence. Later, with new techniques,or a change in the patients condition, maybe he will, if the patient ever bothers to return...

I think you by saying something is not hapening when someone is in the middle of it happening, you just confuse and irritate people, and make them even more stubborn about asserting their reality, without stimulating engagement in any useful dialogue.

But there certainly may be something different going on in the heads of those that perceive auras, and that is a very interesting avenue of exploration to develop. Lots of things go on entirely in our heads that are very very important.



Perhaps rather than getting stuck on the idea of proving or disproving, you could change your approach to one that encompasses discovery. Break away from your this or that mentality, and ask " what?" Set a posative intention to the process , such as expanding our mutual body of knowledge .

More people might be interested in participating, so you might gather more information that way too. Perhaps that is why no psychics bother with the contests and challenges at all, the intention is insincere and un-engaging.


So,maybe try assuming that people are really perceiving something. That the perception of whatever it is, is not necessarily a universal phenomenon. Finding out why could be interesting. Sure, take into consideration that it may be due to a difference in their brain chemistry, physiology, or upbringing... Or perhaps there is some fluctuation of external conditions allowing its perception...But instead of saying they are not perceiving it, perhaps engage in figuring out what it is, how they use it, why it might exist for some and not others... There are a millions fascinating aspects to discover this .

Sit down with a psychic, in a real environment of interest and exploration, and you might find that the conversation allows for more openness and goes something like this:

Psychic: "Thank you for your interest. You know, Hmmn, I don't really know how to define this thing ( auras) that I am using and experiencing in scientific terms.I have never studied neurophysiology, or sensory perception.Yet, none of the terminology I have come across so far in the day to day world seems to apply. I see the direct applications of it ( aura perception) all the time,so I know it is a valid experience- at least for me and those I work with. Over the years I have learned a lot about personal methods of aura/energy healing and balance. Hard to put it into words you could understand. But maybe we can work together to figure out exactly what it is in the kind of terms you use in science. Perhaps there is some way to better define and understand what is happening so it could be even more useful in the world?"


Scientist:
Well, I am certainly willing to work with you on that. Okay, well, lets take a close look at what has already been studied on the subject, and see what gaps there are in method or knowledge. Find the flaws in the studies, and try to develop one that does not have these.I would like to hear more about what you do and how you do it. Could you take me through some of the exercises you have used to develop your awareness and skill so I can have an experiential foundation to grow from? Maybe I could begin by observing you as a healer for a while, if your patients are willing to be subjects in that way. Once I have some experience with what you do, we can talk about how best to set up a study of the subject of auras. Does that sound reasonable?"

And so, some progress might be made...

Though it is difficult to scientifically prove that our entire existence is not just in our heads, actually. If we dont perceive the world does it exist?

Sorry, joking, couldn't resist wink


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Drudwyn
Drudwyn

Forget puppy power, Scrappy's just gay
Location: Southampton Uni
Member Since: 27th Aug 2005
Total posts: 632
Posted:Banshee, all of the approaches from the scientific side of the debate have been saying "I am prepared to accept that I can not see them and that it is possible that you see them, but in order for me to believe, I need you to show me by fulfilling a set of criteria". The scientists out there, won't believe on the sole basis of necdotes, becuase there are too many ways to fool people, as have been brought up in many other posts.

Unfortunately, awareness and perception are all too easily fooled. That is why people like Jeff have put their suggestions forward for scientifically sound (as much as that is possible) tests which would prove whether one side or the other is true. However, all of the tests that have "proved" that these metaphysical feats are real have been shown to be fatally flawed, so there is no consensus. On those tests that are solid, no one has ever proven their abilities. Metaphysicians, psychics etc. have no interest in being proved wrong, which is why Scientists have no interest in "opening their minds" to these phenomenon. If they can not be tested they are not science. If they can not be tested, they can not be proved true or false.

As has been said many times so far, a scientist does not need to understand how or why something happens, only that it does happen. Impartiality also assists in finding answers, because of our natural ability to see patterns and ignore evidence to the contrary. So having a scientist whose beliefs lie in the camp of the believers camp may result in un-scientific tests.

Jeff and I have said the same thing: We are willing to believe should someone prove it to us, and I don't mean through having a healing, a reading or giving anecdotal evidence (I've performed healings on others, removed pain etc., and I'm a sceptic) but through showing that their abilities can be tested.

Unfortunately, that does not seem likely, and we are stuck in a deadlock. There is a way out, but as the burden of proof is on the shoulders of the believers, I can not see that way out happening.


Spin, bounce, be one with the world, because it is yours to enjoy...

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted: Written by: robnunchucks


no that is not the rational thing to do because you never actually checked to make sure it wasn't just all in your head you just assumed it wasn't. you'll also note that none of the other people the aura group check to make sure it wasn't all in there head they simply assumed it wasn't. this assumption is the problem.

the rational thing to do would be to test your abilities using controlled scientific methods to determine if it was all in your head or not? only after you passed those tests could you say that logically it wasn't all in your head




I am getting so frustrated here I could scream.

As I have posted four or five pages ago.
I have been medically tested to make sure this stuff wasnt just in my head right.
Please refrain from making sweeping generalisations that believers are blissed out airy fairy people who go whoa dood I can see your aura.sweeeeet and just think that its totally normal

When I started seeing them, I didnt think it was normal. I thought I was loosing my mind.
I got tested, and retested. Then EVERY 6 months I have tests again. I would appreciate it if you stop saying stuff like none of the people in the aura believers group check to see its in their head

Please read what I have written. For people who are claiming to be so thorough and take all information into consideration you and Jeff are missing some huge points here.

Some of which I have reposted twice now. About to post for the third time

 Written by: jeff(fake)


 Written by: Valura


well Jeff fails to answer the questions yet again.


If you have a question which you believe is relevant that wasn't addressed then feel free to repost it.



 Written by: jeff(fake)


Quote~ Jeff fake "If the follow ups were positive I would apply for Randi's prize, and certainly believe Valura's claim."




Are you saying YOU would apply for PROFIT from MY gift?

Yeah so are ya.?


 Written by: onewheeldave


What's striking about this thread is how so many participants have wound up feeling personally attacked.

Valura, there's been no indication from you or anyone else that you've been in any way offended by anything I've said, but, judging by how slighted you've felt by some of Jeffs posts and, having read in one of your previous posts just how big a part of your life the energy stuff is- I feel there is a risk of it.

So, if I have, I'll apologise and say honestly that it was not my intention.




Nah Dave you have been the one person to offer a less offensive way of looking at the scientific possibilities. Just by the way you write, your tone, and your choice of words. You dont make challenging remarks and thinly veiled suggestions or insinuations. You have shown me respect, even though you may not necessarily agree with me and up until this point I believe I have also extended that courtesy to the others in this thread.



 Written by: Birgit


Rob has a point. There are many people who perceive themselves as being too fat when they're starved nearly to death. Or my previous examples of OCDs and paranoia. Are all those people right just because others share their perceptions?




Perhaps they are, Perhaps they are the ones who are mentally well and the rest of us are not. Im not experiencing what their truth is so I couldnt even begin to judge that.

I believe that a lot of people in mental institutions are actually quite psychic and just dont know how to deal with it or whats happening to them so they are labelled unstable by the medical community, and put away. Now I dont believe thats ALL people in there, but a good few.

Just because others share my perceptions I dont believe that they or even myself are correct. There are smidgeons of truth in everything of course there is the possibility that I could wrong with what I believe in. I have never denied thatI have not once sat here and said I am right, your horribly wrong that wouldnt be bringing anything constructive to the discussion. I would be an ignorant arse to suggest that I was completely right.man what an ego I would have.

After everything I have experienced in my lifetime, and the constant reaffirming of my insights or whatever you want to call what I do, I have come to believe that I am not mentally unstable, nor physically ill. I have just been bestowed with a gift.


 Written by: robnunchucks


and Id like to that this isn't news i agree completely that meditation can give people extraordinary control over there heart rate breathing etc. this is something that has been shown in scientifically verifiable tests over and over again. meditation is a very powerful technique but theres nothing mystical about it many scientific studies have been done and our understanding of meditation has come on leaps and bounds in the last 50 years.



Perhaps sciences understanding of other peoples beliefs could come on leaps and bounds in the next 50 years. If science failed to understand the complexities of meditation only 50 years ago, perhaps there are yet to be developments made with scientific tools that will be able to measure the aura without the scientists needing to take the person who can see the auras into consideration. Also I dont believe that there is anything mystical about an aura. Its a completely normal and natural thing to haveeverything has one. I have pictures of mine don you want me to scan copies?

 Written by: robnunchucks


also jo have you ever thought of testing your self if you can feel auras a good test would be to blind fold your self then have someone put there hand close to one of yours and see if you can tell which hand there close to.



I have done that so many times its normal to me. Im pretty sure it would be quite normal to Jo also. Im a reiki Master so I work with energy on a daily basis, and I can quite easily create a ball of energy. Or use my hands to scan the body of another and feel where there is problem energy. It feels hot and tingly.
If someone put there hands over mine I would know which one immediately.


I am starting to believe that no matter how much evidence is given, pseudo science or not, irrefutable or not, the sceptics are still going to reject the possibilities.

I also think thats because they havent had control over the tests themselves so therefore couldnt draw the conclusions that they believe are to be true even if perhaps there is evidence that contradicts their proposed hypothesis. How could we even begin to make such tests fair?


I have found a quote written by a man called bonzelite who says what I want to in a very eloquent way, perhaps it may appeal to some

 Written by: Bonzelite


conventional sciences are limited by their adherence to only what can be literally detected, inferred by default to official theories, or what can only be mathematically "detected." and yet, still, this results in myriad theories that cannot be proven beyond doubt. so i don't understand why these conventional practices to acquire data are legitimate, and other means to acquire data are illegitimate. and not just means of acquisition, but belief in other means. belief in other possibilities, especially when there is also evidence for such "illegitimate" things.

therefore, the official word is then based upon accepted beliefs, stigma, and then unaccepted beliefs. the refusal to accept the possibility of other belief systems is, in my view, largely a function of habit and stigma. nobody wants to change if they are content with the present, and if coming out of the closet on a belief will alienate peers, a nay saying stance is the safe bet.
for example, i have experienced paranormal events throughout my life. i have been told by others, sharing in these experiences, that i have psychic ability, i.e., like a "medium." there are differing levels of psychic ability. some people are empaths, able to adopt other's feelings and tell about someones' day; others are super-advanced and can see future events or past events based upon intuitive feelings and by visiting an area or having a vibration from physical objects. such people can deliver extremely accurate information, much to the amazement of others.

but this is all B.S. according to official science.

therefore, i do not consider whatsoever "official" science to be official. it simply is not. our sciences are still yet quite in the dark ages. and the refusal to accept paranormal experiences, as one example, as valid experiences that are scientific, is, to me, myopic and negligent.



from the uplink forum
uplink


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: BansheeCat









Again, it is difficult and somewhat silly to convince someone that they are not experiencing something that they are in fact experiencing, regardless of if you attempt to use scientific method . Anaolgy: A patient goes to the doctor, and say I am in pain. After a thorough medical examination, the doctor can not find anything that would cause pain, so states that the pain must be in their head- or worse yet, that they must not be in pain.







I think it's fair to say that the sceptics here are not saying that Valura and others are not experiencing what they say they are.



If Valura says she sees bands of colours round humans, then I think everyone here is happy to believe that.



What the sceptics are disputing is whether those bands of colour relate to a real form of energy (that, in theory, would be detectable by scientific instruments) that is radiated by the humans.



It's also apparent from their posts, that many of the sceptics are happy to acknowledge the possibility that the auras seen, even if they do not relate to an actual energy field, can nevertheless, to people like Valura, give accurate information about the feelings/state of the person whose aura she is observing, or that the aura she sees is her minds way of representing the knowledge.



i.e. they're accepting that-



1. she does see the bands of colour

2. that it is entirely possible that she can tell from a persons aura, things which other people cannot



What they are sceptical about is the claim that the auras seen are actual energy radiated by the human body, that relate directly to the condition of that person.



(and of course, the fact that they regard it as possible that Valura can discern real information from the auras she sees, does not mean they're going to accept it as true without some kind of scientific proof that it is accurate).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Bek66
Bek66

Future Mrs Pogo
Location: The wrong place
Member Since: 27th Aug 2006
Total posts: 4728
Posted:I said that I wasn't going to do this again, didn't I???

Well...to give a reference that has a bit of a scientific as well as a spiritual view...try the book 'The Inner Temple of Witchcraft' by Christoper Penczak.

Is a wonderful melding of both concepts, and where I take alot of my practice from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Penczak


"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Maybe some of us should start to accept, that we're NOT all actually living on "the same planet/ universe", certainly have different skills and perceptions of what is "defined reality"?

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Some of you mention that perhaps it is "all in their heads"

Maybe you were not away that some people in mental asylums are not actually "insane" but are just so insanely gifted (whether psychically otherwise) they are rejected by normal society? I've seen documentaries on people who spend their lives institutionalised, yet are more gifted at science or languages et al than the majority of the world.

Some gifts can be burdens too.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:OWD-- If your last post is an accurate reflection of the views of Robnunchucks, Drudwyn , Jeff et al, then I would say we are much closer to mutual understanding than I thought! Great! I thought Rob was still on about proving or disproving the existence of auras , rather than investigating the nature of their existence and exploring how/why they may be perceived by some and not others, under some conditions and not others.

I would in that case find myself even more aligned with them then not, cause I too would be careful about defining auras as "energy" emmitting from the other person, if using scientific terminology. In communicating with other healers, the word energy works just fine... But as far as science goes, I am not sure what kind of awareness it is, and what its origins are. To me, that is one interesting bit that scientists get to try to figure out.

Drudwyn, I think you missed my point, which would have been an easy thing to do in that long ramble of mine! wink

The point was that I do not think Rob or Jeff have demonstrated that they/we/anyone/ currently possesses sufficient knowledge about the nature of auras and their perception to formulate an appropriate definitive experiment on the subject. Sure, a scientist does not have to have had direct experience with auras. But they do require a basic hypothesis or functional premise regarding the properties of what it is they are trying to measure, in order to know what forms of measurement to use. If you try to measure sound waves with a kitchen measuring cup, you wont get much useful information.

Is what is being perceived a magnetic force? Vibration? Energy? heat? light? sound? all of the above? Is the act of perception of auras a function that is physiological, psychological, emotional, environmental...? Is it some form of selective hallucination? Your answers to these questions would likely lead to some very different study structures.

Trying to base a study around the words used by a psychic to describe their own experience is not likely to lead to accuracy either. The terminology is different, what they call vibration may have little or nothing to do with the scientific term vibration, etc.

Yet I don't see that there is a deadlock, lots of people are still enjoying investigating these subjects in all sorts of different ways.


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Valura



 Written by: robnunchucks



no that is not the rational thing to do because you never actually checked to make sure it wasn't just all in your head you just assumed it wasn't. you'll also note that none of the other people the aura group check to make sure it wasn't all in there head they simply assumed it wasn't. this assumption is the problem.



the rational thing to do would be to test your abilities using controlled scientific methods to determine if it was all in your head or not? only after you passed those tests could you say that logically it wasn't all in your head







I am getting so frustrated here I could scream.



As I have posted four or five pages ago.

I have been medically tested to make sure this stuff wasnt just in my head right.





None of those tests prove that they weren't in your head, just that they couldn't prove they were in your head. Neuroscience is still in it's infancy.



 Written by: valura



 Written by: jeff(fake)



 Written by: Valura



well Jeff fails to answer the questions yet again.



If you have a question which you believe is relevant that wasn't addressed then feel free to repost it.





 Written by: jeff(fake)



Quote~ Jeff fake "If the follow ups were positive I would apply for Randi's prize, and certainly believe Valura's claim."







Are you saying YOU would apply for PROFIT from MY gift?



Yeah so are ya.?





That question seem bizarre and irrelevant. I made it quite clear I would use the money to help others, an aim you described as "egotistical". Moreover, if you really did have powers, you would be under no obligation to take any test through myself because any decent scientist or knowledgeable layperson should be capable of running the tests themself.



 Written by: Valura



I have done that so many times its normal to me. Im pretty sure it would be quite normal to Jo also. Im a reiki Master so I work with energy on a daily basis, and I can quite easily create a ball of energy. Or use my hands to scan the body of another and feel where there is problem energy. It feels hot and tingly.

If someone put there hands over mine I would know which one immediately.



I am starting to believe that no matter how much evidence is given, pseudo science or not, irrefutable or not, the sceptics are still going to reject the possibilities.



I also think thats because they havent had control over the tests themselves so therefore couldnt draw the conclusions that they believe are to be true even if perhaps there is evidence that contradicts their proposed hypothesis. How could we even begin to make such tests fair?





Well, you've made a number of testable claims there. It would be an extremely easy matter to produce a fair and impartial test. You could sit blindfolded with your hands out on a table and a tester could place their hand above one of yours (taking precautions to avoid noticeable heat or turbulence etc. which would be the tricky part). You would then declare whether you thought it was the right or left hand, tester records the result. Repeat, say, 50 times for an adequate data set. You claim you would get a 100% success rate.



 Written by: Valura



I have found a quote written by a man called bonzelite who says what I want to in a very eloquent way, perhaps it may appeal to some





Well I think the responses from the scientists on this thread show that bonzelite has formed a straw man. We have been consistently open to being proven wrong, and in fact have welcomed challenge .



bonzelite also shows a deep misunderstanding of the scientific method in his writings. We form theories which make predictions, not form beliefs. If a theory's prediction is wrong, the theory may need to be modified or discarded. If a theory can't be proven wrong, then it isn't right, it simply isn't wrong. Sometimes the weight of evidence is so great that a theory is called "right" as a shorthand for "not wrong to a very large degree".


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)



Well I think the responses from the scientists on this thread show that bonzelite has formed a straw man. We have been consistently open to being proven wrong, and in fact have welcomed challenge .





Remember that not everyone here understands what 'forming a straw man' means- use of obscure/specialised terminology is one of the things that can lead to tension on threads like this.

It's could easily be avoided by including a brief explantion of what 'straw man' means.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave



 Written by: jeff(fake)





Well I think the responses from the scientists on this thread show that bonzelite has formed a straw man. We have been consistently open to being proven wrong, and in fact have welcomed challenge .









Remember that not everyone here understands what 'forming a straw man' means- use of obscure/specialised terminology is one of the things that can lead to tension on threads like this.



It's could easily be avoided by including a brief explantion of what 'straw man' means.



Quite right.



Straw man is the technique of misrepresenting a position in order to make it easier to attack.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: BansheeCat


OWD-- If your last post is an accurate reflection of the views of Robnunchucks, Drudwyn , Jeff et al, then I would say we are much closer to mutual understanding than I thought! Great! I thought Rob was still on about proving or disproving the existence of auras , rather than investigating the nature of their existence and exploring how/why they may be perceived by some and not others, under some conditions and not others.

I would in that case find myself even more aligned with them then not, cause I too would be careful about defining auras.....



This is what I'm talking about with 'resolution' of two apparently opposing views.

Now I can't speak for all the sceptics here- maybe some disagree with the assessment of the sceptical position.

I'm fairly confident though, that most are not denying the fact that Valura does see bands of colour- the dispute is over whether those bands relate to actual energy.

One practical thing to do is for everyone to realise that part of this dispute is less to do with actual beliefs, than it is to do with the fact that some are defining 'aura' in terms of the 'qualia' aspect (the sensation/colour percieved by Valuraand others) while others are defining it in terms of 'actual radiated energy that can be seen'.

When that's sorted out, they can then progress to the second issue, which is, that, having agreed that Valura does see auras (ie bands of colour), then-

can Valura, via that aura perception, gain (non-obvious to others) information about the person looked at?

Even here, I feel, the sceptics are open to the possibility, postulating, perhaps, that Valura has synsethic tendencies, or that she is acutely sensitive to the feelings/body language of others and that the info she subconsciously perceives is represented to her conscious mind via changes in the auras she sees.

Of course, they're not going to blindly accept that she can, but, in principle, they're open to the possibility and, with favourable experimental results, would be happy to accept them.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:If the above is accurate, then we have a theory which should be acceptable by both camps.

Valura can be happy because no-ones denying that she actually does see auras (bands of colour) and because the sceptics accept the possibility of the fact that, through the auras, she can 'read' people.

The sceptics are happy because they're not being pressured to accept facts for which there is no evidence.

Issues do remain of course- how can Valuras claims be properly tested?

But at least, the easing of pointless conflict based on, in some cases, simply having differing definitions of a central term, leads to the possibility of mutual understanding and, possibly, actual collabaration (for example, in designing suitable test procedures).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


 Written by: robnunchucks


no that is not the rational thing to do because you never actually checked to make sure it wasn't just all in your head you just assumed it wasn't. you'll also note that none of the other people the aura group check to make sure it wasn't all in there head they simply assumed it wasn't. this assumption is the problem.

the rational thing to do would be to test your abilities using controlled scientific methods to determine if it was all in your head or not? only after you passed those tests could you say that logically it wasn't all in your head




None of those tests prove that they weren't in your head, just that they couldn't prove they were in your head. Neuroscience is still in its infancy.




Seriously Jeff where else would you suggest I get tested after I had been so sick?
I wouldn't be hopping into a science lab to get checked out, I would be in the hospital where they had saved my life.

Im sure if I just waltzed in the science lab and said hows it going? lets get these tests started" they are going to laugh their arses off at me, therefore I believe I have been tested as thoroughly as I possibly can be. Just not as scientifically as you would like...but I'm sure you'll agree, a little information is better than no information isn't it?

They didn't find anything wrong with me and they did hundreds of tests. Are you that sure you know enough to dispute them?
 Written by: jeff(fake)


 Written by: Valura


 Written by: jeff(fake)


Quote~ Jeff fake "If the follow ups were positive I would apply for Randi's prize, and certainly believe Valura's claim."




Are you saying YOU would apply for PROFIT from MY gift?

Yeah so are ya.?



What a bizarre and irrelevant question. I made it quite clear I would use the money to help others, an aim you described as "egotistical". Moreover, if you really did have powers, you would be under no obligation to take any test through myself because any decent scientist or knowledgeable layperson should be capable of running the tests themself.



Not irrelevant at all. It proves to me your intentions, from your desire to claim the money after I had done all the hard work, as you proposed. I just cant believe that you would claim money that you would have no right to.
Im starting to get the feeling from a few of your statements that there is a more personal agenda here.

By the way I have just read back through this thread looking for where I said that giving the money to others is egotistical. Couldnt find it. If I have overlooked it please feel free to point me to it. Other than that dont put words in my mouth matey. Perhaps you need to have a read back and be more objective just like I have?

 Written by: jeff(fake)


 Written by: Valura


I have done that so many times its normal to me. Im pretty sure it would be quite normal to Jo also. Im a reiki Master so I work with energy on a daily basis, and I can quite easily create a ball of energy. Or use my hands to scan the body of another and feel where there is problem energy. It feels hot and tingly.
If someone put there hands over mine I would know which one immediately.

I am starting to believe that no matter how much evidence is given, pseudo science or not, irrefutable or not, the sceptics are still going to reject the possibilities.

I also think thats because they havent had control over the tests themselves so therefore couldnt draw the conclusions that they believe are to be true even if perhaps there is evidence that contradicts their proposed hypothesis. How could we even begin to make such tests fair?




Well, you've made a number of testable claims there. It would be an extremely easy matter to produce a fair and impartial test. You could sit blindfolded with your hands out on a table and a tester could place their hand above one of yours (taking precautions to avoid noticeable heat or turbulence etc. which would be the tricky part). You would then declare whether you thought it was the right or left hand, tester records the result. Repeat, say, 50 times for an adequate data set. You claim you would get a 100% success rate.




Yep thats right.I would.

*turns on broken record*

Im not going to do any tests because I dont want to, I dont feel the need to, and dont have to prove anything to you.

Oh and by the way... I dont work at all, so I dont dance like a performing monkey for money in other things in life like you claim I do.
I also dont charge for healings ever, they are a gift to be given freely, so stop insinuating, as you did in previous posts, that I am earning money off that.

For a guy whos so interested in the facts Jeff, you're allowing a lot of unsubstantiated 'evidence' to slip through.


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:I should also say, that this does not mean the end of the theory that auras are actual radiated energy, visible to a few people and which indicate accurate information about the person whose aura it is.

If that energy is, in principal, detectable by instruments, then, in principle, it's a testable theory.

I feel that most sceptics however, will be more inclined to favour the theory outlined in the previous posts.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


If the above is accurate, then we have a theory which should be acceptable by both camps.

Valura can be happy because no-ones denying that she actually does see auras (bands of colour) and because the sceptics accept the possibility of the fact that, through the auras, she can 'read' people.

The sceptics are happy because they're not being pressured to accept facts for which there is no evidence.

Issues do remain of course- how can Valuras claims be properly tested?

But at least, the easing of pointless conflict based on, in some cases, simply having differing definitions of a central term, leads to the possibility of mutual understanding and, possibly, actual collabaration (for example, in designing suitable test procedures).



yep, I'm happy to accept that mate. No problems. I agree with what you have said there and I'm ETERNALLY grateful that you have had the thoughtfulness to clarify the definitions...seems fair to both sides...and this way I don't feel like I'm being scorned, or looked down upon.

and with that im going to sleep. ubblol hug


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Mascot
Mascot

enthusiast

Member Since: 20th May 2002
Total posts: 301
Posted:It's funny that the believers, and Valura in particular should feel so attacked by the sceptics. The results of the poll indicate that the believers outnumber the disbelievers by roughly 3 to 1. So Valura and Jo represent the majority of Hoppers and Jeff and Rob a grumbling minority.

neither the believers nor the sceptics are about to change their minds so if this debate has any meaning then it's a battle for hearts and minds. A battle that the believers have convincingly won. As a sceptic this saddens me.

I admire Jeff and Rob for their uncompromising stance and I stand shoulder to shoulder with them.....until I get bored and wander down to the pub. I just haven't the time or energy to invest in the debate.


Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:rolleyes
of course I felt attacked.

its not very comfortable to have to justify yourself, but ya know... I didn't see ya up there doing it... so enjoy the show! ubblol hug


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Valura


 Written by: jeff(fake)


None of those tests prove that they weren't in your head, just that they couldn't prove they were in your head. Neuroscience is still in its infancy.



They didn't find anything wrong with me and they did hundreds of tests. Are you that sure you know enough to dispute them?



You've made a very simple claim about an ability to detect hands. That is very simple to test. I've also made no claim that there is something "wrong" with you, just that it is illogical to rule out non-supernatural explanations just because the tests they ran didn't come to any conclusions.
 Written by: valura


Not irrelevant at all. It proves to me your intentions, from your desire to claim the money after I had done all the hard work, as you proposed. I just cant believe that you would claim money that you would have no right to.
Im starting to get the feeling from a few of your statements that there is a more personal agenda here.



A personal agenda? I think we are descending well into the realms of the absurd. I've repeatedly said I would not take any money for myself, and that anyone could take you to Randi or the Nobel prize committee.

 Written by: Valura


 Written by: Jeff(fake)


Well, you've made a number of testable claims there. It would be an extremely easy matter to produce a fair and impartial test. You could sit blindfolded with your hands out on a table and a tester could place their hand above one of yours (taking precautions to avoid noticeable heat or turbulence etc. which would be the tricky part). You would then declare whether you thought it was the right or left hand, tester records the result. Repeat, say, 50 times for an adequate data set. You claim you would get a 100% success rate.




Yep thats right.I would.

*turns on broken record*

Im not going to do any tests because I dont want to, I dont feel the need to, and dont have to prove anything to you.



No, you don't have to prove anything to me, but you could do a lot more good if you were to demonstrate that you can do something.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:the boy g, I only felt attacked when Stout mentioned this being an argument of logic vs emotion, or belief vs science.

I've also said that I'm willing to change my perspective on it.

smile

hug


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Jo, that wasn't meant as an attack, it was more of an attempt to label the "two worlds" that are in conflict on this thread.

If I add up all the things I've heard, and believed in my life, and I've often repeated as truisms, only to have them proved as falsehoods by tv shows like Mythbusters, and websites like Snopes and Quackwatch, I have no choice to admit that I have ( and may still do ) held a lot of "false" beliefs.

Off the top of my head, the behaviour of lemmings springs to mind, I believed that story for years

Mind you, none of those beliefs that I held and later abandoned could be considered sacred, which is another important factor in this discussion too.


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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:yep, I'm happy to accept that mate. No problems. I agree with what you have said there and I'm ETERNALLY grateful that you have had the thoughtfulness to clarify the definitions...seems fair to both sides...and this way I don't feel like I'm being scorned, or looked down upon.



wow this is maby the first debate of this nature i've seen were any kind of agreement has been reached i'll like to extend my thanks and congradulations to everyone involved. this is a rare occurence and one that brings a big smile to my face biggrin i'ed also like to thank dave for clarifying alot of things which i think helped with this brake though



but now the balls rolling i would like to suggest we take it to the next stage we now have 3 posable hypothises to explain aura reading.



hypothises



1. doesn't work at all



2. aura readers see are subcontous interpretations of information around them displayed as auras alowing them to read people with much better acuracy than the average person



3. aura readers can see supernatural energys eminateing from people which they can interprate to gain information about them.





i would like to propose several experiements to determin which of these is the correct hypothosis.

Experiments



1. the acuracy test we have some random volentears as well as some aura readers and non aura readers. for each volentear we randomly decide if they are going to lie or not about some fact about them selfs. once this has been decided we have both groups lissen to all the volentears and decide if there lieing or not. because aura readers are geting extra information they should perform the test much more accurately than non aura readers.



2. the person just out of veiw experiment (i wont go into detail its been covered plenty already)



expected results



hypothises 1 would predict that aura readers should fail experiment 1 and 2



hypothises 2 would predict that aura readers should pass experiment 1 and fail experiment 2



hypothies 3 would predict that readers should pass both experiment 1 and 2





i dont know about you lot but i for one would love to know whats actualy going on here smile

EDITED_BY: robnunchucks (1166108830)


My nunchucks vital statictics biggrin

weight: 500g
handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:Stout, I know it wasnt meant as an attack hun hug
but I feel like I belong in "both worlds". I don't want to be labelled as an irrational believer!
I don't think I am smile


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Jo, we all belong in both worlds it's just that some favour belonging in one world more than the other. I understand your aversion to being labelled, but it's an unfortunate thing that's going to happen when these two worlds collide over an issue such as this.

Personally I find it easier to keep the two worlds separate, or at least I will until I find an acceptable way to meld the two ( but to my skeptical, scientific brain, I don't see this happening in the near future ) so I lump mediums into the same category I'd put priests into....strictly in the world of the spiritual.

Now I don't draw much comfort from the world of the spiritual,,but billions of people do, and who am I to deny that the benefits of spirituality actually exist ?
hug


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Mascot
Mascot

enthusiast

Member Since: 20th May 2002
Total posts: 301
Posted:I would like to ask the believers what else they believe in.



Astrology?

life after death?

re-incarnation?

Ley-lines?

communicating with the dead?

faeries?

palmistry? (readng your the future from tha palm of your hand)

tarot cards?

all of the above?

EDITED_BY: the boy g (1166123709)


Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:OWD you rock grouphug kiss

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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