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The Tea FairySILVER Member
old hand
853 posts
Location: Behind you...


Posted:
Hi all

I've been studying the use of complementary therapies in palliative care for a research project at Uni. I've been looking at how these often clinically unproven therapies are being integrated into conventional medical care for the dying, the reasons for it and the benefits of it e.t.c.

One of the things I've been up to is watching a therapist give reiki treatments to patients. I started talking to the therapist afterwards about the 'energy body' and if she can see it. She says she just feels the energy, but cannot see it.

I personally would like to believe that we each have an aura or 'energy body', but at the same time I don't like buying into things without a healthy dose of scepticism also. So I was wondering what you guys all think...

If anyone also wants to argue for or against auras, or give their personal experiences with 'energy', I'm interested in whatever you guys have to say.

Cheers.

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


faith enfireBRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA


Posted:
if this imagination leads you to read people right...
(don't they make roses out of turnips in those fancy dining places)

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


ado-pGOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland


Posted:
What this thread is missing, is any actual information regarding Auras or any previous research done into Auras.



This page is full of info on a range of approaches to the investigation of Auras. Including rigorous scientific testing that should be of interest to both camps.



https://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/energ.html



heres a bit of it



 Written by: Dr Valerie Hunt



Dr. Valorie Hunt - and colleagues at UCLA, published "A Study of Structural Neuromuscular Energy Field and Emotional Approaches", which is a study of the effects of Rolfing on the body and the psyche. She placed electrodes on the skin to record the low millivoltage signals from the body during rolfing sessions. Rosalyn Bruyere observed the auras and recorded her observations of both the rolfer and the patient. Breyere's observations were recorded on the same tape as the electronic data. She described the color, size, and energy movements of the chakras, and auric clouds, or HEF, involved.

Scientists then mathematically analyzed the wave patterns recorded by a Fourier analysis and a sonogram frequency analysis. The wave forms and frequencies reported by Rosalyn Bruyere correlated specifically with the colors reported. When Breyere saw blue in the HEF at a specific location, the electronic measurements would always show the characteristic blue wave form and frequency in the same location.

Hunt repeated this experiment with seven other aura readers. Each of the seven also saw auric colors that correlated with the same frequency wave patterns. In 1988, the results of their research showed these color and frequency correlations. Dr. Hunt says, "Throughout the centuries in which sensitives have seen and described the auric emissions, this is the first objective electronic evidence of frequency, amplitude and time, which validates their subjective observation of color discharge."







Interesting Interview. More science...



Science and The

Human Energy Field

James L. Oschman, Ph.D.



https://pdfdl.oceighty.net/pdf2html.php?url=https://www.spiritualone.com/Download/OschmanReprint2.pdf





A Critical Analysis of Chromotherapy and Its Scientific Evolution

Samina T. Yousuf Azeemi* and S. Mohsin Raza

Department of Physics, University of Balochistan, Quetta, Pakistan



https://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1297510



Concerning The Scientific Study Of The Human Aura

Charles T. Tart

University of California, Davis



https://www.paradigm-sys.com/ctt_articles2.cfm?id=28

Love is the law.


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
well thats diffrent your saying that these skills are internal the mind that the mind creates them with imagination and this mental mechanism helps you read people correctly. i wouldn't argue with you, this infact is exacly what i think is happening.



what i object to is people saying that it is more than simpley the mind at work that there are energy fields that actualy exist outside the body are people are detecting.



because if the second is true that would have diffrent conciquences than the first. such as people been able to see people behind sheats. because they can't (or have never been able to demonstrate it) to me that shows pritty clearly that the first mechimism is in play.



is aura readers are willing to go with the first discription of what is happening then we are in agreement because that is what the evidence suggests.



i'ed also like to point out that yes they do make turnips look like roses in fancy restruans however just because they look like a rose doensn't stop them been at turnip biggrin (this metaphore is proberly neareing brakeing point )
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ado-pGOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland


Posted:
For Rob

https://www.ions.org/research/medbiblio/index.htm%0D

Love is the law.


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
ok the first two are not particualy good the first while acurate simply points out there are several feilds eminateing from the body which can be detect this is not in dispute however as i've pointed out if you can detect these fields you should be able to detect alot more than aura readers clame to.

the second artical is pritty dodgy for example

"one possible hypothesis is
that when a Reiki practitioner begins giving Reiki, feelings of compassion, love, and other healing feelings are created in the heart. " of course as everyone knows feelings arn't created in the heart there created in the brain. there are alot of suspect statments like this one in it. its also an artical from a reiki magasen not a scientific jurnal.

however the thrid intrestes me mainly because it has been published on pubmed a reputable sicentific database as a such i would like to read very carfuly but i wanted to get my objects to the first two out the way before i got into it biggrin back in abit

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robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
oh and that link is dead wait up i figured it out you just had some crap on the end of the link



and i'ed like to that this isn't news i agree compeatly that meditation can give people extrdanry control over there heart rate breathing etc. this is something that has been showin in scientificly verifiable tests over and over again. meditation is a very powerfull tequniqe but theres nothing mistical about it many sicentific studys have been done and our understanding of meditation has come on leeps and bounds in the last 50 years.



ok finished reading the pubmed artical its intresting but its esentaly a round up of information regarding colour theropy and the history of it however you'll note that while its intresting again there isn't actualy any experiments done to demonstrate it works.



you'll also note that none of the artical so far appart from the first one have actualy talked about people reading auras?
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BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
Ado, thanks a lot for all the links.

What I'm wondering is...

Can you find Dr. Hunt's experiment published in a journal?

I know most of you don't understand the importance of peer-reviewed journals for science and credibility. They aren't perfect, but a good way to keep down bad analysis and speculation.

I've googled for the article, and found only 2 pages full of results, in journals like "psychic journal" and websites like "mindgazer". Nothing tells me how the study was conducted. So... sceptic again, sorry.

One of the basic things a scientific paper is supposed to do is to give exact details of the conditions under which an experiment was conducted, so that anyone in any lab in the world using the same equipment under the same conditions can replicate it. In other words, enough detail for anyone to know what was done and how, with the intention of letting others confirm, or indeed disprove, the results. This can't be found anywhere in a lot of the "scientific" explanations on the web. They just seem to go "we've done it, it works, so it's right".

What I'm still missing here is one of these reviewed articles. Even the one that came up in pubmed basically summarises, with very few exceptions from journals usually specialising in acupuncture etc, books about healing, written by people who believe in it. shrug

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
oh and just a quick note acupuncture does actualy have some scientifc evidence for it of course the expliantions behind whats happening changed signficantly gone are the talks about chi and energy flows (which intrestingly lined up pritty well with the lay out of the nervious system in the humman body) the basic principle is you can releave pain by stimulateing other nerves in the body to distract the brain from the original pain stiumlus.

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ado-pGOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland


Posted:
Im in work so I dont actually have the time to read these articles in detail. Hopefully I will have time later to read them properly.

Rob. Thanks for reading them.

Perhaps you guys could follow up on this and do some more research. Some examples of peer reviewed articles on the same or similiar subject matter would be great.

This will be a much more interesting discussion if all the parties involved abrought something to the table other than arguement.

Love is the law.


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
Yeah, but same thing about work frown And no private internet at the moment.

Was trying to look up Mr. Oschmann's website because the article was all a bit noncommitant, and he mentioned research that I was hoping he'd linked to there, but it's blocked by my work pc... hope I won't get into trouble!!

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
 Written by: ado-p

Perhaps you guys could follow up on this and do some more research. Some examples of peer reviewed articles on the same or similiar subject matter would be great.


A search through the respected journals shows a number of hypothetical pieces supporting Rob's hypothesis of synaesthetia, but no evidence that anyone can literally detect any energy fields which would correspond to the notion of an "aura".

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


jo_rhymesSILVER Member
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom


Posted:
ok how about this, maybe me, Valura, and any other people who experience aura's just have something wrong in the brain. Otherwise we're perfectly normal (almost! wink )

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
 Written by: jo_rhymes



ok how about this, maybe me, Valura, and any other people who experience aura's just have something wrong in the brain. Otherwise we're perfectly normal (almost! wink )



Synaesthetia would seem a perfectly logical way for the brain to give someone conscious knowledge of the subconscious conclusions reached regarding another's emotional state.



If anything, it would make you slightly superior, just not supernatural.



 Written by: 87wt2gxq7



jeff, which journals and which papers? Any url links (as I don't have access to a university library)?



I'd love to have a look at some.





I found a news piece which was published in nature. link



It's an intriguing hypothesis but it doesn't seem to have received much interest recently.
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robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
an excelent and well thought out artical on the subject of auras
https://www.paradigm-sys.com/ctt_articles2.cfm?id=28

if abit long

i would like to give address of the migrain aura group
https://www.migraine-aura.org/EN/index.html
an excelent group who study the (rather common) effect of people seeing auras as a result of migrains. and are atempting to develop ways of cureing this condtion.

also it is intresting to note that aura readers have been tested under scientifc conditions your'll note that when this test was done james randi only offered £10,000 and even though the prize has increased substaintaly these days high profile phycis avoid the challange like the plauge

Furthermore, the best aura reader in the West was tested before a live television audience and failed miserably. The Berkeley Psychic Institute (BPI) sent their top aura reader for a chance to win $10,000 if she could prove her powers. She agreed that the devised test was a fair and accurate. The test was televised on a program hosted by Bill Bixby. James Randi put up the $10,000. The psychic was presented with about twenty people on stage and was asked if she could see their auras. She said that she could see the auras, they all had one and they emanated at least a foot or two above each person's head. The twenty aura-wearing people then went offstage. A curtain was lifted, revealing a number of partitions behind which only some of the twenty people were standing. Thus, Bixby and the psychic were looking at twenty partitions but only several of them had a person behind it. The psychic was asked if she could see any auras creeping up above the partitions. She said she could. To get her ten grand all she had to do was correctly identify each partition that had a person behind it. She was to do this by seeing each person's aura above the partition. The audience was given an aerial camera view of the proceeding. Well, the psychic claimed that she saw an aura above all the partitions and that there was a person behind each partition. The partitions were removed, revealing about 6 people behind the partitions. The psychic didn't even seem surprised. She might console herself that 6 out of 20 is not bad in a hostile arena.

you can find the full artical here https://skepdic.com/auras.html

an artical on photographing auras https://skepdic.com/kirlian.html

bellow is a list of peer review articals relateing to migrain auras
https://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/119/2/355
https://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/98/8/4687
https://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109679102/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

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ado-pGOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland


Posted:
 Written by: jeff(fake)


 Written by: ado-p

Perhaps you guys could follow up on this and do some more research. Some examples of peer reviewed articles on the same or similiar subject matter would be great.


A search through the respected journals shows a number of hypothetical pieces supporting Rob's hypothesis of synaesthetia, but no evidence that anyone can literally detect any energy fields which would correspond to the notion of an "aura".



Yes, but what Im saying is that it would be nice to read these too... So that we are all understanding each others positions.

Will you contribute and post some links Jeff?

Love is the law.


jo_rhymesSILVER Member
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom


Posted:
I don't know what it is, all I know is that sometimes I can feel energy or some kind of force coming from people's bodies.

Maybe it's an aura, maybe it's not. I don't know!

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
ok how about this, maybe me, Valura, and any other people who experience aura's just have something wrong in the brain



that sounds a very reasonble conclustion but it would be incorect to say that something was wrong with you your brain it just has a diffrent setup than most. some of the worlds greatists musicens are suspected to have suffered Synaesthetia as well as many great artsts and poets as well. in afew rare cases it has also results in people with superhuman mathmatical ability, it has also been shown that people with certian types of Synaesthetia can perform certain tasks far better than those without it.



everyones brain is set up diffrently for example im dislexic this has some negitive effects on me such as

* Difficulties with reading

* Difficulties with spelling and grammar

* Poor physical co-ordination and handwriting

* Poor organisation skills and planning skills

* Difficulties working within time limits

* Difficulties with thinking and working in sequences

* Visual difficulties, such as blurring and distortion of print

* Poor short-term memory



but it also has some positive effects



# Good Visual and Spatial skills

# Good at creating novel designs

# Good social skills

# Advanced critical thinking

# Good at problem solving

# Advanced verbal skills



ref https://www.stokecoll.ac.uk/dyslexia/effects.htm



some people have numbers synaesthesia and see diffrent numbers as diffrent colours, they can pick a number 3 out of a page full of 5's instantly while it takes non Synaesthes much longer to find the 3.



its likely the reading ability is simmilar instead of number Synaesthetia you have emotional Synaesthetia. and just as number Synaesthetia gives advatages working with numbers, emotional Synaesthetia gives advantages working with feeling and reading others.



as i said before its like you've got a heads up display like in an aircraft that gives you summerys of all the little subutal signs someone is giveing off thought there body language, how they dress tone of voice etc. but instead of haveing to work it all out your self your subcontious is doing the work and showing you a summery of what its figured out as an aura.



i would say that you brain works diffrently to the rest of us but that is never a bad thing biggrin diffrent kind of brains are needed for diffrent kind of problems
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jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
Link to the news piece I found has been added to my post above for conveniences sake.

Of course, we aren't saying that perception of aura's definitely is a form of synaesthetia. To determine that we would need to conduct tests to establish which regions of the brain are activated and how that compares with others with synaesthetia, and rule out all other explanations.

It might not be the right explanation, but it is testable. If it turned out to be wrong, we would reject it and move on. That's the key difference between science and faith.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
very true smile its important to point out at this stage that emotion-color synaesthesia is an unproven hypothisis. it would be very intresting to see what testing shows though.



i've also got afew jurnals on emotional synaesthesia if anyones intrested in reading about it.

https://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15326934crj1001_1?cookieSet=1&journalCode=crj

https://www.springerlink.com/content/f06276p6n0103763/

https://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0094-0496(197402)1%3A1<49%3ATCOE>2.0.CO%3B2-F



also jo have you ever thought of testing your self if you can feel auras a good test would be to blind fold your self then have someone put there hand close to one of yours and see if you can tell which hand there close to.
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BansheeCatBRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada


Posted:
Rob, just wanted to point out that the "auras' seen with migraine symptoms are not the same thing as the auras healers are referring to in terms of energy, chakras etc. It is a confusing case of the same word being used to describe different things altogether.

Though the sparkly "auras' of migraines are a pretty interesting sensation all on their own!And a great excuse to relax with a cup of coffee!

Also, at some point you mentionned that people who perceive auras have never actually checked to know if it exists only within their head. Many have! Even on this thread, examples have been given to demonstrate that- just not by scientific methodology. People like Valura have stated that they use the information of the experience of auras in number of different ways, healing comes up often as one.

When you take something you perceive in your head, and apply it to have an effect on someone else in the physical world, with mutually perceivable results, it is a pretty clear demonstration to those involved that it is not "just" in your head. Doing this repeatedly affirms that awareness as a concrete reality so it is not surprising one may become uninterested in proving it to anyone-- they are just doing it. Belief is irrelevant.

Again, it is difficult and somewhat silly to convince someone that they are not experiencing something that they are in fact experiencing, regardless of if you attempt to use scientific method . Anaolgy: A patient goes to the doctor, and say I am in pain. After a thorough medical examination, the doctor can not find anything that would cause pain, so states that the pain must be in their head- or worse yet, that they must not be in pain.

But the fact remains , to the patient, the doctor is denying a direct their direct experience of their world. It is not useful... The patient still leaves the clinic in pain, and turns to other ways of dealing with it...

Likely, there *was* actual some source of pain; mental or physical, but the doctor was just unable at that point to find it, so was more comfortable denying its existence. Later, with new techniques,or a change in the patients condition, maybe he will, if the patient ever bothers to return...

I think you by saying something is not hapening when someone is in the middle of it happening, you just confuse and irritate people, and make them even more stubborn about asserting their reality, without stimulating engagement in any useful dialogue.

But there certainly may be something different going on in the heads of those that perceive auras, and that is a very interesting avenue of exploration to develop. Lots of things go on entirely in our heads that are very very important.



Perhaps rather than getting stuck on the idea of proving or disproving, you could change your approach to one that encompasses discovery. Break away from your this or that mentality, and ask " what?" Set a posative intention to the process , such as expanding our mutual body of knowledge .

More people might be interested in participating, so you might gather more information that way too. Perhaps that is why no psychics bother with the contests and challenges at all, the intention is insincere and un-engaging.


So,maybe try assuming that people are really perceiving something. That the perception of whatever it is, is not necessarily a universal phenomenon. Finding out why could be interesting. Sure, take into consideration that it may be due to a difference in their brain chemistry, physiology, or upbringing... Or perhaps there is some fluctuation of external conditions allowing its perception...But instead of saying they are not perceiving it, perhaps engage in figuring out what it is, how they use it, why it might exist for some and not others... There are a millions fascinating aspects to discover this .

Sit down with a psychic, in a real environment of interest and exploration, and you might find that the conversation allows for more openness and goes something like this:

Psychic: "Thank you for your interest. You know, Hmmn, I don't really know how to define this thing ( auras) that I am using and experiencing in scientific terms.I have never studied neurophysiology, or sensory perception.Yet, none of the terminology I have come across so far in the day to day world seems to apply. I see the direct applications of it ( aura perception) all the time,so I know it is a valid experience- at least for me and those I work with. Over the years I have learned a lot about personal methods of aura/energy healing and balance. Hard to put it into words you could understand. But maybe we can work together to figure out exactly what it is in the kind of terms you use in science. Perhaps there is some way to better define and understand what is happening so it could be even more useful in the world?"


Scientist:
Well, I am certainly willing to work with you on that. Okay, well, lets take a close look at what has already been studied on the subject, and see what gaps there are in method or knowledge. Find the flaws in the studies, and try to develop one that does not have these.I would like to hear more about what you do and how you do it. Could you take me through some of the exercises you have used to develop your awareness and skill so I can have an experiential foundation to grow from? Maybe I could begin by observing you as a healer for a while, if your patients are willing to be subjects in that way. Once I have some experience with what you do, we can talk about how best to set up a study of the subject of auras. Does that sound reasonable?"

And so, some progress might be made...

Though it is difficult to scientifically prove that our entire existence is not just in our heads, actually. If we dont perceive the world does it exist?

Sorry, joking, couldn't resist wink

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."


DrudwynForget puppy power, Scrappy's just gay
632 posts
Location: Southampton Uni


Posted:
Banshee, all of the approaches from the scientific side of the debate have been saying "I am prepared to accept that I can not see them and that it is possible that you see them, but in order for me to believe, I need you to show me by fulfilling a set of criteria". The scientists out there, won't believe on the sole basis of necdotes, becuase there are too many ways to fool people, as have been brought up in many other posts.

Unfortunately, awareness and perception are all too easily fooled. That is why people like Jeff have put their suggestions forward for scientifically sound (as much as that is possible) tests which would prove whether one side or the other is true. However, all of the tests that have "proved" that these metaphysical feats are real have been shown to be fatally flawed, so there is no consensus. On those tests that are solid, no one has ever proven their abilities. Metaphysicians, psychics etc. have no interest in being proved wrong, which is why Scientists have no interest in "opening their minds" to these phenomenon. If they can not be tested they are not science. If they can not be tested, they can not be proved true or false.

As has been said many times so far, a scientist does not need to understand how or why something happens, only that it does happen. Impartiality also assists in finding answers, because of our natural ability to see patterns and ignore evidence to the contrary. So having a scientist whose beliefs lie in the camp of the believers camp may result in un-scientific tests.

Jeff and I have said the same thing: We are willing to believe should someone prove it to us, and I don't mean through having a healing, a reading or giving anecdotal evidence (I've performed healings on others, removed pain etc., and I'm a sceptic) but through showing that their abilities can be tested.

Unfortunately, that does not seem likely, and we are stuck in a deadlock. There is a way out, but as the burden of proof is on the shoulders of the believers, I can not see that way out happening.

Spin, bounce, be one with the world, because it is yours to enjoy...


ValuraSILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Posted:
 Written by: robnunchucks


no that is not the rational thing to do because you never actually checked to make sure it wasn't just all in your head you just assumed it wasn't. you'll also note that none of the other people the aura group check to make sure it wasn't all in there head they simply assumed it wasn't. this assumption is the problem.

the rational thing to do would be to test your abilities using controlled scientific methods to determine if it was all in your head or not? only after you passed those tests could you say that logically it wasn't all in your head




I am getting so frustrated here I could scream.

As I have posted four or five pages ago.
I have been medically tested to make sure this stuff wasn’t just ‘in my head’ right.
Please refrain from making sweeping generalisations that believers are blissed out airy fairy people who go “whoa dood I can see your aura….sweeeeet” and just think that it’s totally normal…

When I started seeing them, I didn’t think it was normal. I thought I was loosing my mind.
I got tested, and retested. Then EVERY 6 months I have tests again. I would appreciate it if you stop saying stuff like “none of the people in the aura believer’s group check to see it’s in their head”

Please read what I have written. For people who are claiming to be so thorough and take all information into consideration you and Jeff are missing some huge points here.

Some of which I have reposted twice now. About to post for the third time…

 Written by: jeff(fake)


 Written by: Valura


well Jeff fails to answer the questions yet again.


If you have a question which you believe is relevant that wasn't addressed then feel free to repost it.



 Written by: jeff(fake)


Quote~ Jeff fake "If the follow ups were positive I would apply for Randi's prize, and certainly believe Valura's claim."




Are you saying YOU would apply for PROFIT from MY gift?

Yeah so are ya….?


 Written by: onewheeldave


What's striking about this thread is how so many participants have wound up feeling personally attacked.

Valura, there's been no indication from you or anyone else that you've been in any way offended by anything I've said, but, judging by how slighted you've felt by some of Jeffs posts and, having read in one of your previous posts just how big a part of your life the energy stuff is- I feel there is a risk of it.

So, if I have, I'll apologise and say honestly that it was not my intention.




Nah Dave you have been the one person to offer a less offensive way of looking at the scientific possibilities. Just by the way you write, your tone, and your choice of words. You don’t make challenging remarks and thinly veiled suggestions or insinuations. You have shown me respect, even though you may not necessarily agree with me and up until this point I believe I have also extended that courtesy to the others in this thread.



 Written by: Birgit


Rob has a point. There are many people who perceive themselves as being too fat when they're starved nearly to death. Or my previous examples of OCDs and paranoia. Are all those people right just because others share their perceptions?




Perhaps they are, Perhaps they are the ones who are mentally well and the rest of us are not. I’m not experiencing what their truth is so I couldn’t even begin to judge that.

I believe that a lot of people in mental institutions are actually quite psychic and just don’t know how to deal with it or what’s happening to them so they are labelled unstable by the medical community, and put away. Now I don’t believe that’s ALL people in there, but a good few.

Just because others share my perceptions I don’t believe that they or even myself are correct. There are smidgeons of truth in everything… of course there is the possibility that I could wrong with what I believe in. I have never denied that…I have not once sat here and said I am right, your horribly wrong… that wouldn’t be bringing anything constructive to the discussion. I would be an ignorant arse to suggest that I was completely right….man what an ego I would have.

After everything I have experienced in my lifetime, and the constant reaffirming of my insights or whatever you want to call what I do, I have come to believe that I am not mentally unstable, nor physically ill. I have just been bestowed with a gift.


 Written by: robnunchucks


and I’d like to that this isn't news i agree completely that meditation can give people extraordinary control over there heart rate breathing etc. this is something that has been shown in scientifically verifiable tests over and over again. meditation is a very powerful technique but there’s nothing mystical about it many scientific studies have been done and our understanding of meditation has come on leaps and bounds in the last 50 years.



Perhaps sciences understanding of other peoples beliefs could come on leaps and bounds in the next 50 years. If science failed to understand the complexities of meditation only 50 years ago, perhaps there are yet to be developments made with scientific tools that will be able to measure the aura without the scientists needing to take the person who can see the auras into consideration. Also I don’t believe that there is anything mystical about an aura. Its a completely normal and natural thing to have…everything has one. I have pictures of mine… don you want me to scan copies?

 Written by: robnunchucks


also jo have you ever thought of testing your self if you can feel auras a good test would be to blind fold your self then have someone put there hand close to one of yours and see if you can tell which hand there close to.



I have done that so many times its normal to me. I’m pretty sure it would be quite normal to Jo also. I’m a reiki Master so I work with energy on a daily basis, and I can quite easily create a ball of energy. Or use my hands to scan the body of another and feel where there is problem energy. It feels hot and tingly.
If someone put there hands over mine I would know which one immediately.


I am starting to believe that no matter how much evidence is given, pseudo science or not, irrefutable or not, the sceptics are still going to reject the possibilities.

I also think that’s because they haven’t had control over the tests themselves so therefore couldn’t draw the conclusions that they believe are to be true… even if perhaps there is evidence that contradicts their proposed hypothesis. How could we even begin to make such tests fair?


I have found a quote written by a man called bonzelite who says what I want to in a very eloquent way, perhaps it may appeal to some…

 Written by: Bonzelite


conventional sciences are limited by their adherence to only what can be literally detected, inferred by default to official theories, or what can only be mathematically "detected." and yet, still, this results in myriad theories that cannot be proven beyond doubt. so i don't understand why these conventional practices to acquire data are legitimate, and other means to acquire data are illegitimate. and not just means of acquisition, but belief in other means. belief in other possibilities, especially when there is also evidence for such "illegitimate" things.

therefore, the official word is then based upon accepted beliefs, stigma, and then unaccepted beliefs. the refusal to accept the possibility of other belief systems is, in my view, largely a function of habit and stigma. nobody wants to change if they are content with the present, and if coming out of the closet on a belief will alienate peers, a nay saying stance is the safe bet.
for example, i have experienced paranormal events throughout my life. i have been told by others, sharing in these experiences, that i have psychic ability, i.e., like a "medium." there are differing levels of psychic ability. some people are empaths, able to adopt other's feelings and tell about someone’s' day; others are super-advanced and can see future events or past events based upon intuitive feelings and by visiting an area or having a vibration from physical objects. such people can deliver extremely accurate information, much to the amazement of others.

but this is all B.S. according to official science.

therefore, i do not consider whatsoever "official" science to be official. it simply is not. our sciences are still yet quite in the dark ages. and the refusal to accept paranormal experiences, as one example, as valid experiences that are scientific, is, to me, myopic and negligent.



from the uplink forum
uplink

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by: BansheeCat









Again, it is difficult and somewhat silly to convince someone that they are not experiencing something that they are in fact experiencing, regardless of if you attempt to use scientific method . Anaolgy: A patient goes to the doctor, and say I am in pain. After a thorough medical examination, the doctor can not find anything that would cause pain, so states that the pain must be in their head- or worse yet, that they must not be in pain.







I think it's fair to say that the sceptics here are not saying that Valura and others are not experiencing what they say they are.



If Valura says she sees bands of colours round humans, then I think everyone here is happy to believe that.



What the sceptics are disputing is whether those bands of colour relate to a real form of energy (that, in theory, would be detectable by scientific instruments) that is radiated by the humans.



It's also apparent from their posts, that many of the sceptics are happy to acknowledge the possibility that the auras seen, even if they do not relate to an actual energy field, can nevertheless, to people like Valura, give accurate information about the feelings/state of the person whose aura she is observing, or that the aura she sees is her minds way of representing the knowledge.



i.e. they're accepting that-



1. she does see the bands of colour

2. that it is entirely possible that she can tell from a persons aura, things which other people cannot



What they are sceptical about is the claim that the auras seen are actual energy radiated by the human body, that relate directly to the condition of that person.



(and of course, the fact that they regard it as possible that Valura can discern real information from the auras she sees, does not mean they're going to accept it as true without some kind of scientific proof that it is accurate).

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Bek66Future Mrs Pogo
4,728 posts
Location: The wrong place


Posted:
I said that I wasn't going to do this again, didn't I???

Well...to give a reference that has a bit of a scientific as well as a spiritual view...try the book 'The Inner Temple of Witchcraft' by Christoper Penczak.

Is a wonderful melding of both concepts, and where I take alot of my practice from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Penczak

"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Maybe some of us should start to accept, that we're NOT all actually living on "the same planet/ universe", certainly have different skills and perceptions of what is "defined reality"?

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
Some of you mention that perhaps it is "all in their heads"

Maybe you were not away that some people in mental asylums are not actually "insane" but are just so insanely gifted (whether psychically otherwise) they are rejected by normal society? I've seen documentaries on people who spend their lives institutionalised, yet are more gifted at science or languages et al than the majority of the world.

Some gifts can be burdens too.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


BansheeCatBRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada


Posted:
OWD-- If your last post is an accurate reflection of the views of Robnunchucks, Drudwyn , Jeff et al, then I would say we are much closer to mutual understanding than I thought! Great! I thought Rob was still on about proving or disproving the existence of auras , rather than investigating the nature of their existence and exploring how/why they may be perceived by some and not others, under some conditions and not others.

I would in that case find myself even more aligned with them then not, cause I too would be careful about defining auras as "energy" emmitting from the other person, if using scientific terminology. In communicating with other healers, the word energy works just fine... But as far as science goes, I am not sure what kind of awareness it is, and what its origins are. To me, that is one interesting bit that scientists get to try to figure out.

Drudwyn, I think you missed my point, which would have been an easy thing to do in that long ramble of mine! wink

The point was that I do not think Rob or Jeff have demonstrated that they/we/anyone/ currently possesses sufficient knowledge about the nature of auras and their perception to formulate an appropriate definitive experiment on the subject. Sure, a scientist does not have to have had direct experience with auras. But they do require a basic hypothesis or functional premise regarding the properties of what it is they are trying to measure, in order to know what forms of measurement to use. If you try to measure sound waves with a kitchen measuring cup, you wont get much useful information.

Is what is being perceived a magnetic force? Vibration? Energy? heat? light? sound? all of the above? Is the act of perception of auras a function that is physiological, psychological, emotional, environmental...? Is it some form of selective hallucination? Your answers to these questions would likely lead to some very different study structures.

Trying to base a study around the words used by a psychic to describe their own experience is not likely to lead to accuracy either. The terminology is different, what they call vibration may have little or nothing to do with the scientific term vibration, etc.

Yet I don't see that there is a deadlock, lots of people are still enjoying investigating these subjects in all sorts of different ways.

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
 Written by: Valura



 Written by: robnunchucks



no that is not the rational thing to do because you never actually checked to make sure it wasn't just all in your head you just assumed it wasn't. you'll also note that none of the other people the aura group check to make sure it wasn't all in there head they simply assumed it wasn't. this assumption is the problem.



the rational thing to do would be to test your abilities using controlled scientific methods to determine if it was all in your head or not? only after you passed those tests could you say that logically it wasn't all in your head







I am getting so frustrated here I could scream.



As I have posted four or five pages ago.

I have been medically tested to make sure this stuff wasn’t just ‘in my head’ right.





None of those tests prove that they weren't in your head, just that they couldn't prove they were in your head. Neuroscience is still in it's infancy.



 Written by: valura



 Written by: jeff(fake)



 Written by: Valura



well Jeff fails to answer the questions yet again.



If you have a question which you believe is relevant that wasn't addressed then feel free to repost it.





 Written by: jeff(fake)



Quote~ Jeff fake "If the follow ups were positive I would apply for Randi's prize, and certainly believe Valura's claim."







Are you saying YOU would apply for PROFIT from MY gift?



Yeah so are ya….?





That question seem bizarre and irrelevant. I made it quite clear I would use the money to help others, an aim you described as "egotistical". Moreover, if you really did have powers, you would be under no obligation to take any test through myself because any decent scientist or knowledgeable layperson should be capable of running the tests themself.



 Written by: Valura



I have done that so many times its normal to me. I’m pretty sure it would be quite normal to Jo also. I’m a reiki Master so I work with energy on a daily basis, and I can quite easily create a ball of energy. Or use my hands to scan the body of another and feel where there is problem energy. It feels hot and tingly.

If someone put there hands over mine I would know which one immediately.



I am starting to believe that no matter how much evidence is given, pseudo science or not, irrefutable or not, the sceptics are still going to reject the possibilities.



I also think that’s because they haven’t had control over the tests themselves so therefore couldn’t draw the conclusions that they believe are to be true… even if perhaps there is evidence that contradicts their proposed hypothesis. How could we even begin to make such tests fair?





Well, you've made a number of testable claims there. It would be an extremely easy matter to produce a fair and impartial test. You could sit blindfolded with your hands out on a table and a tester could place their hand above one of yours (taking precautions to avoid noticeable heat or turbulence etc. which would be the tricky part). You would then declare whether you thought it was the right or left hand, tester records the result. Repeat, say, 50 times for an adequate data set. You claim you would get a 100% success rate.



 Written by: Valura



I have found a quote written by a man called bonzelite who says what I want to in a very eloquent way, perhaps it may appeal to some…





Well I think the responses from the scientists on this thread show that bonzelite has formed a straw man. We have been consistently open to being proven wrong, and in fact have welcomed challenge .



bonzelite also shows a deep misunderstanding of the scientific method in his writings. We form theories which make predictions, not form beliefs. If a theory's prediction is wrong, the theory may need to be modified or discarded. If a theory can't be proven wrong, then it isn't right, it simply isn't wrong. Sometimes the weight of evidence is so great that a theory is called "right" as a shorthand for "not wrong to a very large degree".

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by: jeff(fake)



Well I think the responses from the scientists on this thread show that bonzelite has formed a straw man. We have been consistently open to being proven wrong, and in fact have welcomed challenge .





Remember that not everyone here understands what 'forming a straw man' means- use of obscure/specialised terminology is one of the things that can lead to tension on threads like this.

It's could easily be avoided by including a brief explantion of what 'straw man' means.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
 Written by: onewheeldave



 Written by: jeff(fake)





Well I think the responses from the scientists on this thread show that bonzelite has formed a straw man. We have been consistently open to being proven wrong, and in fact have welcomed challenge .









Remember that not everyone here understands what 'forming a straw man' means- use of obscure/specialised terminology is one of the things that can lead to tension on threads like this.



It's could easily be avoided by including a brief explantion of what 'straw man' means.



Quite right.



Straw man is the technique of misrepresenting a position in order to make it easier to attack.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


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