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The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:Hi all

I've been studying the use of complementary therapies in palliative care for a research project at Uni. I've been looking at how these often clinically unproven therapies are being integrated into conventional medical care for the dying, the reasons for it and the benefits of it e.t.c.

One of the things I've been up to is watching a therapist give reiki treatments to patients. I started talking to the therapist afterwards about the 'energy body' and if she can see it. She says she just feels the energy, but cannot see it.

I personally would like to believe that we each have an aura or 'energy body', but at the same time I don't like buying into things without a healthy dose of scepticism also. So I was wondering what you guys all think...

If anyone also wants to argue for or against auras, or give their personal experiences with 'energy', I'm interested in whatever you guys have to say.

Cheers.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


I've been thinking about starting a thread on the issue of reconciliation of these two, initially incompatible seeming, ways of life/belief.

Any interest?


I am, but I don't see how that could be accomplished without aura believers being open to the possibility of being wrong.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:if you can suggest a solution to the problem that would convince one side or the other. then go for it but as far as i can see the only way i can see of brakeing the deadlock is with some sort of sicentific testing something non of the beleavers are unwilling to undertake. ether the skeptics must become willing to accept a lower burden of proof or the beleavers must become willing do perform sicentific testing. unless one or the other happens i dont see how we can get a resolution.



but of coures i've been wrong many times before and if you've got an idea for sorting this all out go for it biggrin

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Posted:actualy i've had an idea for a thread i've been thinking about.



How do people determin truth.



odviously several of us use the scientific method but clearly many people dont i would be intrested to see what stratagys they have for determining if somethign is truth. it might help us better understand why they beleave what they do and vica verca.



what you recon? i'ed be very intrested in that kinda thread.

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Any interest ? Yes, IMO the difference between these two worlds and how people draw inspiration form either of these two opposing ( emotional vs logical ) or (belief vs reason) as a means to formulate ideology and actually live their lives, is the most interesting aspect of this whole discussion.

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:I take great offence at you basically classing me as someone who is irrational!
What is illogical about it?

Ok I can feel an aura, or some kind of energy emitting from people's bodies. Wouldnt it be irrational to just think, "no, it's all in my head?"
when there are other people out there experiencing the same thing I am, and calling them auras, I see it as logical to place myself in that bracket of people.

I am perfectly able to reason, and if you can prove 99% that it IS all in my mind, and aura's are just a figment of my imagination, then of course I'll change my paradigm.

Til then, this is not emotional vs logical or belief vs reason.


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted: Written by: jo_rhymes



Us aura- believers have no way whatsoever of showing you an aura. You have to do that yourselves with meditation and so forth.







See? That's what I meant by my previous posts frown



And apart from that, the sceptics on here don't actually ask to be shown auras. Some of us are quite willing to believe that they do exist, and you can see them but we might never be able to, but would like to be shown that you see them.



You may not care if we believe in them or not, but to many of us it is a potential bit of reality that we're missing out on and we would like to know more about.



Once there is (potentially) proof that someone can see them, people will be able to work on

- why that is, and why other people can't

- what information auras can give

- how people who can't see them may be able to, if it's really just down to meditation or if it is a generic ability some just can't acquire. Could there be devices, like hearing aids, constructed to make us perceive "aura" waves we otherwise can't?



Maybe this way of thinking doesn't fit in with spirituality. But if auras are real, and electromagnetic waves, then they can be viewed as that. And there will be reasons why, like standard visible light, or the difference between red and green, some people can see them and others can't.



Lastly, if auras, viewings etc, actually tell you about people and there is a way to verify this, they could be used to do lots of good. There could be more people educated to be healers, and with some kind of quality certificate, too, to reduce the number of charlatans out there. They could be used to help convict, or free wrongly convicted, people. You could use them to find missing people who have aged or changed their appearance, and to identify criminals. Imagine how it could help the work of hospitals and care homes!



That's why I think that those convinced of auras and their power, and say they use them to help others, should go for the proof. If it is true that they exist, and it is true that you could prove that but don't really care to do that, you potentially deprive lots of people of the benefits that proof would bring.



And who knows, maybe if scientists at some point understand things that so far are filed under "belief only", they may be able to help you find ways to see auras better, or get more out of them, even do healings better or reduce negative effects on yourself like you said you had, Valura.

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:Wouldnt it be irrational to just think, "no, it's all in my head?" when there are other people out there experiencing the same thing I am, and calling them auras, I see it as logical to place myself in that bracket of people.



no that is not the rational thing to do because you never actualy checked to make sure it wasn't just all in your head you just assumed it wasn't. you'll also note that non of the other people the aura group check to make sure it wasn't all in there head they simply assumed it wasn't. this assumption is the problem.



the rational thing to do would be to test your abilitys useing controled sicentific methods to determin if it was all in your head or not? only after you passed those tests could you say that logicaly it wasn't all in your head



however to date no one has ever been able to do that which is why the seceptics persist. if you want to have it proved one way or another take up the JRF challange not only will they determing if its all in your head or not but if it isn't you will be given $1.2 million think of it as playing the lottery but with better odds wink



note: many people see colours and shapes that arn't there such as people with synatsisa (incorrect spelling) yet you didn't group your selfs with them what was your reasoning for picking auras over synathesesa?

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: jo_rhymes


I am perfectly able to reason, and if you can prove 99% that it IS all in my mind, and aura's are just a figment of my imagination, then of course I'll change my paradigm.



That would require you to agree to testing.

I can't tell the difference between green and red, but other people claim they can. To believe that there is no difference would be irrational, since they can demonstrate that ability in a few simple tests.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Rob has a point. There are many people who perceive themselves as being too fat when they're starved nearly to death. Or my previous examples of OCDs and paranoia. Are all those people right just because others share their perceptions?

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Jo, I'm not classing you as irrational, no offense intended, what I meant to convey was that we ALL formulate our views of how the world works based on both reason and belief, so a person can be indeed rational about some subjects, and irrational about others.

Speaking as someone who's never seen an aura ( and really I'm not fussed about my lack of "ability" ) I do have a hard time digesting anecdotal evidence as being the sole explanation for the existence of auras.

As long as you're open to the possibility that this transfer of energy COULD be strictly psychosomatic, or a manifistation of the placebo effect, then I wouldn't describe you as irrational at all smile


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:why does it matter what they call it so long as they see it
why does it matter why they see it so long as they see it
a rose by any other name
an aura by any other name


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:just read this

Its not about Auras but it sure is interesting

http://www.meaus.com/95-ions-swami-veda-experim.htm


Love is the law.

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:the name doesn't matter if they called it turnip reading the arugements would be the same

but there is an underlying diffrence between the two view points if it is psychosomatic its is a force that works only within the brain and doesn't have an actual precence in the real world.

if its aura reading then it is external to the body and the brain is only perceveing it. it is a real force which is part of our universe not part of our imagination.

we want to know the answer because some of us are curious people we want to know which one it is because these questions are important they only by answering these questions can we gain a better understanding of the nature of the universe.

we are not arugeing over wether to call a rose a rose were argueing over wether in fact the rose is not a rose but a turnip.


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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Posted:intresting alot of thats isn't suppriseing its been shown in labs more than once that meditation can have a significant effect on your bodys autonomic fuctions. its also not supriseing as the brain controls them. however there are some intresting points in there



first the random number generator part is intreaugeing but i have seen alot of people clameing random number generators are effected by certain phenomina only for a flaw in there experiment to be later demonstrated. i would need to see the exact statistical methods used to determing statistical significance before commenting. however it does warrent further study. but i would note that they only ran the random number experiment once and the effect occurred only three min in and for only seven min it didn't coincide with the start and end of mediation if they did this experiment several times then it would be more conclusive.



second the remote healing system was again intresting however i saw no refrences to controls groups to remove the posibilty of the placebo effect. infact the second person was a student of the guy they were testing and was also an experiance mediator her self. aswell as knowing the nature of the test before they started it and what was expected of her. so that test was not objective in the slightist.



there are a couple of intresting points in there though do you have the a link to the jurnal or paper in which these results were published? i would be intrested to read the oringal artical this is baised on.

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:if this imagination leads you to read people right...
(don't they make roses out of turnips in those fancy dining places)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:What this thread is missing, is any actual information regarding Auras or any previous research done into Auras.



This page is full of info on a range of approaches to the investigation of Auras. Including rigorous scientific testing that should be of interest to both camps.



http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/energ.html
br>


heres a bit of it



 Written by: Dr Valerie Hunt



Dr. Valorie Hunt - and colleagues at UCLA, published "A Study of Structural Neuromuscular Energy Field and Emotional Approaches", which is a study of the effects of Rolfing on the body and the psyche. She placed electrodes on the skin to record the low millivoltage signals from the body during rolfing sessions. Rosalyn Bruyere observed the auras and recorded her observations of both the rolfer and the patient. Breyere's observations were recorded on the same tape as the electronic data. She described the color, size, and energy movements of the chakras, and auric clouds, or HEF, involved.

Scientists then mathematically analyzed the wave patterns recorded by a Fourier analysis and a sonogram frequency analysis. The wave forms and frequencies reported by Rosalyn Bruyere correlated specifically with the colors reported. When Breyere saw blue in the HEF at a specific location, the electronic measurements would always show the characteristic blue wave form and frequency in the same location.

Hunt repeated this experiment with seven other aura readers. Each of the seven also saw auric colors that correlated with the same frequency wave patterns. In 1988, the results of their research showed these color and frequency correlations. Dr. Hunt says, "Throughout the centuries in which sensitives have seen and described the auric emissions, this is the first objective electronic evidence of frequency, amplitude and time, which validates their subjective observation of color discharge."







Interesting Interview. More science...



Science and The

Human Energy Field

James L. Oschman, Ph.D.



http://pdfdl.oceighty.net/pdf2html.php?url=http://www.spiritualone.com/Download/OschmanReprint2.pdf
br>




A Critical Analysis of Chromotherapy and Its Scientific Evolution

Samina T. Yousuf Azeemi* and S. Mohsin Raza

Department of Physics, University of Balochistan, Quetta, Pakistan



http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1297510
br>


Concerning The Scientific Study Of The Human Aura

Charles T. Tart

University of California, Davis



http://www.paradigm-sys.com/ctt_articles2.cfm?id=28


Love is the law.

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:well thats diffrent your saying that these skills are internal the mind that the mind creates them with imagination and this mental mechanism helps you read people correctly. i wouldn't argue with you, this infact is exacly what i think is happening.



what i object to is people saying that it is more than simpley the mind at work that there are energy fields that actualy exist outside the body are people are detecting.



because if the second is true that would have diffrent conciquences than the first. such as people been able to see people behind sheats. because they can't (or have never been able to demonstrate it) to me that shows pritty clearly that the first mechimism is in play.



is aura readers are willing to go with the first discription of what is happening then we are in agreement because that is what the evidence suggests.



i'ed also like to point out that yes they do make turnips look like roses in fancy restruans however just because they look like a rose doensn't stop them been at turnip biggrin (this metaphore is proberly neareing brakeing point )

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
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Total posts: 3882
Posted:For Rob

http://www.ions.org/research/medbiblio/index.htm%0D


Love is the law.

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
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Posted:ok the first two are not particualy good the first while acurate simply points out there are several feilds eminateing from the body which can be detect this is not in dispute however as i've pointed out if you can detect these fields you should be able to detect alot more than aura readers clame to.

the second artical is pritty dodgy for example

"one possible hypothesis is
that when a Reiki practitioner begins giving Reiki, feelings of compassion, love, and other healing feelings are created in the heart. " of course as everyone knows feelings arn't created in the heart there created in the brain. there are alot of suspect statments like this one in it. its also an artical from a reiki magasen not a scientific jurnal.

however the thrid intrestes me mainly because it has been published on pubmed a reputable sicentific database as a such i would like to read very carfuly but i wanted to get my objects to the first two out the way before i got into it biggrin back in abit


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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Location: manchester uk
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Posted:oh and that link is dead wait up i figured it out you just had some crap on the end of the link



and i'ed like to that this isn't news i agree compeatly that meditation can give people extrdanry control over there heart rate breathing etc. this is something that has been showin in scientificly verifiable tests over and over again. meditation is a very powerfull tequniqe but theres nothing mistical about it many sicentific studys have been done and our understanding of meditation has come on leeps and bounds in the last 50 years.



ok finished reading the pubmed artical its intresting but its esentaly a round up of information regarding colour theropy and the history of it however you'll note that while its intresting again there isn't actualy any experiments done to demonstrate it works.



you'll also note that none of the artical so far appart from the first one have actualy talked about people reading auras?

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Ado, thanks a lot for all the links.

What I'm wondering is...

Can you find Dr. Hunt's experiment published in a journal?

I know most of you don't understand the importance of peer-reviewed journals for science and credibility. They aren't perfect, but a good way to keep down bad analysis and speculation.

I've googled for the article, and found only 2 pages full of results, in journals like "psychic journal" and websites like "mindgazer". Nothing tells me how the study was conducted. So... sceptic again, sorry.

One of the basic things a scientific paper is supposed to do is to give exact details of the conditions under which an experiment was conducted, so that anyone in any lab in the world using the same equipment under the same conditions can replicate it. In other words, enough detail for anyone to know what was done and how, with the intention of letting others confirm, or indeed disprove, the results. This can't be found anywhere in a lot of the "scientific" explanations on the web. They just seem to go "we've done it, it works, so it's right".

What I'm still missing here is one of these reviewed articles. Even the one that came up in pubmed basically summarises, with very few exceptions from journals usually specialising in acupuncture etc, books about healing, written by people who believe in it. shrug


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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:oh and just a quick note acupuncture does actualy have some scientifc evidence for it of course the expliantions behind whats happening changed signficantly gone are the talks about chi and energy flows (which intrestingly lined up pritty well with the lay out of the nervious system in the humman body) the basic principle is you can releave pain by stimulateing other nerves in the body to distract the brain from the original pain stiumlus.

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
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Posted:Im in work so I dont actually have the time to read these articles in detail. Hopefully I will have time later to read them properly.

Rob. Thanks for reading them.

Perhaps you guys could follow up on this and do some more research. Some examples of peer reviewed articles on the same or similiar subject matter would be great.

This will be a much more interesting discussion if all the parties involved abrought something to the table other than arguement.


Love is the law.

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Yeah, but same thing about work frown And no private internet at the moment.

Was trying to look up Mr. Oschmann's website because the article was all a bit noncommitant, and he mentioned research that I was hoping he'd linked to there, but it's blocked by my work pc... hope I won't get into trouble!!


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: ado-p

Perhaps you guys could follow up on this and do some more research. Some examples of peer reviewed articles on the same or similiar subject matter would be great.


A search through the respected journals shows a number of hypothetical pieces supporting Rob's hypothesis of synaesthetia, but no evidence that anyone can literally detect any energy fields which would correspond to the notion of an "aura".


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:ok how about this, maybe me, Valura, and any other people who experience aura's just have something wrong in the brain. Otherwise we're perfectly normal (almost! wink )

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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87wt2gxq7
87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham
Member Since: 12th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1502
Posted:jeff, which journals and which papers? Any url links (as I don't have access to a university library)?



I'd love to have a look at some.


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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: jo_rhymes



ok how about this, maybe me, Valura, and any other people who experience aura's just have something wrong in the brain. Otherwise we're perfectly normal (almost! wink )



Synaesthetia would seem a perfectly logical way for the brain to give someone conscious knowledge of the subconscious conclusions reached regarding another's emotional state.



If anything, it would make you slightly superior, just not supernatural.



 Written by: 87wt2gxq7



jeff, which journals and which papers? Any url links (as I don't have access to a university library)?



I'd love to have a look at some.





I found a news piece which was published in nature. link



It's an intriguing hypothesis but it doesn't seem to have received much interest recently.

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
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Total posts: 363
Posted:an excelent and well thought out artical on the subject of auras
http://www.paradigm-sys.com/ctt_articles2.cfm?id=28

if abit long

i would like to give address of the migrain aura group
http://www.migraine-aura.org/EN/index.html
br>an excelent group who study the (rather common) effect of people seeing auras as a result of migrains. and are atempting to develop ways of cureing this condtion.

also it is intresting to note that aura readers have been tested under scientifc conditions your'll note that when this test was done james randi only offered 10,000 and even though the prize has increased substaintaly these days high profile phycis avoid the challange like the plauge

Furthermore, the best aura reader in the West was tested before a live television audience and failed miserably. The Berkeley Psychic Institute (BPI) sent their top aura reader for a chance to win $10,000 if she could prove her powers. She agreed that the devised test was a fair and accurate. The test was televised on a program hosted by Bill Bixby. James Randi put up the $10,000. The psychic was presented with about twenty people on stage and was asked if she could see their auras. She said that she could see the auras, they all had one and they emanated at least a foot or two above each person's head. The twenty aura-wearing people then went offstage. A curtain was lifted, revealing a number of partitions behind which only some of the twenty people were standing. Thus, Bixby and the psychic were looking at twenty partitions but only several of them had a person behind it. The psychic was asked if she could see any auras creeping up above the partitions. She said she could. To get her ten grand all she had to do was correctly identify each partition that had a person behind it. She was to do this by seeing each person's aura above the partition. The audience was given an aerial camera view of the proceeding. Well, the psychic claimed that she saw an aura above all the partitions and that there was a person behind each partition. The partitions were removed, revealing about 6 people behind the partitions. The psychic didn't even seem surprised. She might console herself that 6 out of 20 is not bad in a hostile arena.

you can find the full artical here http://skepdic.com/auras.html
br>
an artical on photographing auras http://skepdic.com/kirlian.html
br>
bellow is a list of peer review articals relateing to migrain auras
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/119/2/355
br>http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/98/8/4687
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109679102/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0


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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
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Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


 Written by: ado-p

Perhaps you guys could follow up on this and do some more research. Some examples of peer reviewed articles on the same or similiar subject matter would be great.


A search through the respected journals shows a number of hypothetical pieces supporting Rob's hypothesis of synaesthetia, but no evidence that anyone can literally detect any energy fields which would correspond to the notion of an "aura".



Yes, but what Im saying is that it would be nice to read these too... So that we are all understanding each others positions.

Will you contribute and post some links Jeff?


Love is the law.

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