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The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted:Hi all

I've been studying the use of complementary therapies in palliative care for a research project at Uni. I've been looking at how these often clinically unproven therapies are being integrated into conventional medical care for the dying, the reasons for it and the benefits of it e.t.c.

One of the things I've been up to is watching a therapist give reiki treatments to patients. I started talking to the therapist afterwards about the 'energy body' and if she can see it. She says she just feels the energy, but cannot see it.

I personally would like to believe that we each have an aura or 'energy body', but at the same time I don't like buying into things without a healthy dose of scepticism also. So I was wondering what you guys all think...

If anyone also wants to argue for or against auras, or give their personal experiences with 'energy', I'm interested in whatever you guys have to say.

Cheers.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Valura



 Written by: onewheeldave





Let me make this VERY CLEAR, cos I don't want to be falsley accused like Jeff has been-



I have not, and am not, saying that all mediums/energy healers are fake.





Matey what has Jeff been falsely accused of?









On several occasions, some people on this thread have assumed that, because Jeff has critisised evidence for auras, that he considers auras to be not real.



 Written by: Valura





I do acknowledge that this has helped me grow, but to be very blunt, only since you have helped to defuse the situation.



Perhaps if others could write as objectively as you these misunderstandings wouldn't have happened in the first place.







Thanks.



Objectivity can be developed, IMO one of the best ways of developing is to occasionally take time to really doubt your own beliefs- to act as your own 'Jeff'.



Not in a negative way- obviously we all have to look after ourselves and we don't want to make ourselves ill/depressed with self-doubt.



But, to stand back from our deepest beliefs and really ask- how could they be doubted, what tests could I do to disprove my beliefs,is, IMO a very healthy thing to do.



If the beliefs are valid, then they will be strengthened by it.



Additionally, when you encounter other people who put out doubts, you'll be able to engage with them without feeling personally attacked, because most of what they come out with you'll have dealt with already.



One thing a good scientist does, is not focus on looking for evidence that confirms their theory, but, instead, focuses on looking for evidence which will disprove it.



A strong scientific theory is one which has stated clear ways in which experiments could disprove it and, withstood those experiements.



(I acknowledge that not everyone is interested in scientific methodology, but, IMO, that aspect is a very good aspect and one which I feel is valuable in other contexts, such as philosophy and personal beliefs).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


Objectivity can be developed, IMO one of the best ways of developing is to occasionally take time to really doubt your own beliefs- to act as your own 'Jeff'.

Not in a negative way- obviously we all have to look after ourselves and we don't want to make ourselves ill/depressed with self-doubt.

But, to stand back from our deepest beliefs and really ask- how could they be doubted, what tests could I do to disprove my beliefs,is, IMO a very healthy thing to do.

If the beliefs are valid, then they will be strengthened by it.



Yey! Don't know how useful it will be but I can't help myself from quoting here:

 Written by: FM Alexander in Constructive Conscious Control of the Individual, Mouritz, 1923


surely it behoves every individual to stop - and I mean this in its fullest sense - and reconsider every particle of supposed knowledge, particularly psychological knowledge, derived from his general education, from his religious, political, moral, ethical, social, legal, and economic training, and ask himself the plain straightforward question, Why do I believe these things? ' By what process of reasoning did I arrive at these conclusions?

If we are even and direct with ourselves in regard to our cherished ideas and ideals, the answer may at first prove a shock to us, to some of us, indeed, almost a knockdown blow. For the truth will be borne in upon us that much of our supposed knowledge has not been real knowledge, and too often the boasted truth a delusion. Many of us may awaken to the fact that the majority of our cherished ideas and ideals are the product, not of any process of reasoning, but of that unreasoning process called impulse, of unbalanced emotion and prejudice




 Written by: onewheeldave

A strong scientific theory is one which has stated clear ways in which experiments could disprove it and, withstood those experiements.



My understanding is that the above is a requirement for all scientific theories, not just strong ones. They must be verifyable if they are to be considered 'scientific' at all.


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Valura
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 6391
Posted: Written by: Birgit


What some people here are saying comes down to, just because "scientists" (representative for people who can't see/feel/etc auras and other spiritual concepts) don't have a perception of auras doesn't mean they still exist.

Fair enough. So we need to develop better instruments to measure auras. But what if they don't exist? We can try making new machines as much as we want, and they'll still not show up. It would be like trying to design a machine that shows the people following a paranoid, or to show the dirt on the hands of someone with OCD. We know synaesthesia exists, but the only way to "prove" that is to work with the people who have it and are willing to share their experience. And then, it still doesn't work for anyone else.

Auras don't compare to love, just as they don't compare to anger, hate, happiness, any of these. True, we don't understand enough of the brain to explain a lot of things yet. Auras may like synaesthesia or paranoia be something that some people perceive and others cannot - this is without evaluation, I'm not saying synaesthetics need therapy or paranoia is good or anything like that, just that some people's brains work, for whatever reasons, different than others'. Maybe one day, we might be able to measure brain waves in a way that will show the people following paranoids. If we can do that, does that mean they exist?

And even with feelings, there are people who cannot perceive them. Take Aspergers, where people cannot read others' feelings well or at all, or take psychopaths who do not have the concept of "wrong" and "right" the average human has.

Strangely enough, when I encounter a blind person who cannot perceive anything with their eyes, I will try and help them. Not say "you just don't want to see it", or "stop being so closed-minded." I wouldn't wait for them to run into an obstacle and then say "well, that's because you're not in touch with your visuality". Similarly, with a deaf person, I'd try and find a way of talking to their face so they can lip-read or write down things I can't get them to understand. You get the idea.

So, to reverse the argument, why should it be up to people with a scientific mind to prove something they cannot perceive (* see end of this)? Why, if spirituality and auras are important to you, do you not try and do all you can to make others see them, how they can benefit from them, and how beautiful they are? If there was something I knew that I think could help a lot of people, I like to think I'd do my best to go out there and show them.

Fair enough, if people don't want to be "experimented on" - don't. But don't go telling those like me that are willing to believe that things outside our perception MAY exist, that we need to get in touch with our spirituality and all that. If you are right, and you can perceive auras while others can't, you should be seeing yourselves as extremely blessed and possibly try and share it, or at least realise that it's not just down to "wanting to believe".


(* - yes, it IS the job of a scientist to prove things they cannot perceive. But there is a limit to this, for example the "subjects", in this case people who say they are able to see auras, being unwilling to participate. You need a basis for an experiment. To go back to the other example, you can't prove the existence of bacteria in a 100% sterile environment, or the effects of a drug against cancer in a healthy person.)

rant over smile




Brigit do not misinterpret my unwillingness to commit to Jeffs tests as an unwillingness to discuss the subject of auras or teach what I know about them.
In saying that, I will only teach if people approach me and ask to learn about such things. Then im very open and willing to teach and chat about it.

Spirituality is a very individual and personal thing and I am NOT going to go out and preach about the benefits to people who may not want to hear it. That is imposing. Who am I to do that?

In my honest opinion, outward dissmissal without some type of evaluation on the slight chance of the other possibility being correct, is a sign of ignorance.
That is why I have continued to state through out this entire thread that science and spirit go hand in hand. I truely believe this.

I do not need to stand up and single myself out in front of others and be tested to prove that to anyone.


If people are in a place they want to learn from, then they can come to me for explaination or help. I dont go out and try to "convert" people. People are here on earth to learn lessons. Everybody does it in their own time and in a pre detirmined way...if I was to come in all guns ablazing professing I knew everything about auras and what was good for them in their spiritual life I would do three things...

One...interfear with the lesson that that particular person has to learn through their own spiritual discovery, therefore rob them of a learning experience....

Two... alienate that person by coming across as a superior zealot.

Three... make myslef look like an ego-centric arse, claiming Im here to teach everyone all about auras. This would turn away those who are truley interested in learning about spirit beacsue they would feel that its a big ole ego show.... thats NOT what my personal spirituality is about.

I have had these abilities since I was a tiny little girl and I have trouble explaining them a lot of the time. They just ARE for me.
They are an ingrained part of my life, something i have come to accept.

I remember being surprised when I realised noone else could see all the energy sqiggles in the sky or around things like I could. I was 8.

It aint easy to be different. I have had eggs thrown at me at reading days, I have been called a witch, had people use me as their personal psychic when I thought I was a friend of theirs on my own merits, not my reading abilities


I started out stating in this thread is that I am able to see auras. I have not ONCE stated that perhaps if someone was to raise their energy then they would be able to see them.
Nor have I uttered the words "well, that's because you're not in touch with your visuality" or insinuate that its as easy as "wanting to believe".

Even the very thought of me saying that to someone is so damn disgusting it leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. It would allude to an air of supererority, and an inability to relate to people who are starting their spiritual journey. It shows complete lack of empathy and compassion to a person. I am not like that at all. I do my best to stand in anothers place.

I find what I 'do', very overwhelming and difficult at times..
I have had to work hard at tuning myself in like a radio, and even then it doesnt work all the time.

I have had to learn how to detach my feelings from another's because I spent three days crying after I read for a lady whos baby had been murdered.
I have thrown up every day for a straight month because I attempted to heal a woman with cancer. I have slept for 40 hours straight becasue of sheer exhaustion from doing 11 hours of reading.
I go to homes of sick people to help them get better with reiki treatments becasue all I want to do in life is really truley help people who are in pain or hurting, and if they want that help, then thats beautiful. If not then thats their choice. no problem-o

Im not claiming to be better than anyone or act like a know it all.
I am, and always will be, learning about this.

Because this is something that is so special to me I rarely talk about it here on HoP. I understand that its not the 'norm' and I dont want to weird people out or even scare them... and I certianly dont want people thinking Im a fraud or a fruitloop. That hurts my feelings, becasue surprisingly, Im a very sensitive person.ubblol

I only shared becasue I had a different angle to put in, and now Im starting to regret that, not because people doubt me, I have come to expect those needs and when I am reading for them they get the proof that they require.
Just because this thread seems to have gone downhilll since I opened my big mouth about what I do, and is now more focused on the whole test/ not to test, situation than the creative discussion regarding auras.

For that im pretty sorry.redface


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:I vote for a creative discussion regarding auras!!!

I wonder how many people here can actually drag themselves away from proving their point and allow this subject to progress into something interesting?


Love is the law.

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:Somedays I wish a thread with this title would consist of lots of one line replies:

"I do"
"I do"
"I don't"
"I do"
"I don't"
"I don't"
"I don't"
"I do"
"I don't"
"I do"

but I think that must be a slight tendency to OCD.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted:I didn't mean that post as a personal attack on you, Valura! There's more than one person on here that suggested people should get in touch with their spirituality though, in one way or another (meditation, energy work, ...), and since I haven't addressed my post to you please don't see it as that. I found what you had to say very interesting, even if it's different from what I think/believe hug



Let me just mention some of MY experiences with spiritual people.



I've had people in my life who have, again and again, rubbed it in that I am "too scientific" and should "just believe" (in whatever THEY believe in, usually).

I've been told I'm a witch and I'm wasting my abilities by not connecting to that side of me, and that may be harmful for me. So, basically, a threat that something bad will happen to me because I can't "be bothered" to be spiritual.

I've had a pagan ex pour a glass of whiskey over me because I laughed at a quote from a rune reading book that to me sounded funny and very far-fetched, even when I was trying to go through the book with him and make sense out of some explanations he didn't understand.

It's not just the non-spiritual people who can be rude and horrible to those with an "alternative" (to theirs!) mindset.



I've had people coming up to me saying I should just get in touch with myself, or God, and my diabetes would be healed.

I've had people saying I got it in the first place because I had done something (though they couldn't tell me what) to bring it on, at age 2, and it could be healed if I found out what.

So whenever I say something critical about pretend-healers, and the "JUST do that"-fraction, I do know what I'm talking about, out of painful experience of my own. If it was all that easy, wouldn't I have done it already?





What I'm trying to get to is, maybe those things do not exist for some people because their brains CANNOT tune in to it. Not just seeing auras and working with them, but some of the effects of what some healers do either. And, like light, some may perceive it in different ways, like even a blind person can feel the heat from the sun, but not from a lightbulb a few metres away. It's all possible.



Bear in mind that I think that whatever you do to help people is good, BECAUSE it helps them. No matter if I believe in the actual aura, if someone benefits from it, that is great.



But the question was, "do you believe in auras", and some people on here have stated with quite good arguments from their point of view why they don't.



If though, like vision or sound, auras may be something that exists for SOME people while others lack the senses, a main part of the responsibility for proving their existence does lie with those people. IF they want others to believe in them.



Hope it's a bit clearer now... I really wasn't having a go at you, Valura smile

EDITED_BY: Birgit (1165929218)


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted: Written by: mcp


but I think that must be a slight tendency to OCD.



I would've said "maybe", but I've seen that video of your kitchen (and the kitchen, in fact) tongue hug


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:yeah but you should see me when I clean the bathroom. tongue

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Mascot


Mascot

enthusiast


Total posts: 301
Posted:gah

It's frustrating watching this thread go round in circles. The scientist crowd get frustrated that the aura believers refuse to do any experiments. The aura believers say that they know auras are real, are happy in that knoledge and don't feel the need to convince sceptics.

Then dubious anecdotal evidence and purported scientific tests are thrown around, interlaced with thinly veiled personal attacks. This thread has grown and grown and I'm sure each side feels that they are banging their head against a brick wall.

For those involved in this frustrating merry-go-round I've got news for you.

The believers are never going to suddenly say "Oh yes I see now, without repeatable evidence from properly designed trials I must reject the existence of these phenomena" and make a mental note to stop seeing auras.

The sceptics are never going to back off unless someone gives them some proof they can accept. This is complicated by the fact that they are rather fussy about what they consider to be sufficient proof.

We all live in a world we choose. I think Ado-P has said this already. In Valura's world I have no doubt that auras exist, she can see them and knows their effects. What more proof could she want? In Jeff or Rob's world auras do not exist.

I think we must be happy to live and let live. We might think that other's world is wrong, but they can choose what to believe and no-one can take that away from them.

Same planet, diffrent worlds.


Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes

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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted: Written by: the boy g



I think we must be happy to live and let live. We might think that other's world is wrong, but they can choose what to believe and no-one can take that away from them.



Same planet, diffrent worlds.





For some of us, that is not satisfactory. There is one world in which we all live, and things either happen or don't happen in it. Some of us want to know what the truth is, because then we can use it to improve our life.



If you don't know that the world is like, what's in it and what it does, then you're living in ignorance. In my opinion, choosing to settle for ignorance is the biggest waste of time, energy and neurons that I can imagine.


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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk

Total posts: 363
Posted:The_boy_g:

The believers are never going to suddenly say "Oh yes I see now, without repeatable evidence from properly designed trials I must reject the existence of these phenomena" and make a mental note to stop seeing auras.



The sceptics are never going to back off unless someone gives them some proof they can accept. This is complicated by the fact that they are rather fussy about what they consider to be sufficient proof.




an exclent post with some good points. i am curious though the sceptics have said what it will take to convince them of the existance of auras and while fussy performing the experiments is acheaveable and posable.



what would it take to convince the beleavers that they are wrong what could someone do the prove to you auras didn't exist or is there nothing anyone could do to convince you?





Valura:



First offwhat did you hope to gain from pretending to read me? Just wondering.



i was trying to point out that just because you dont know how something is done doesn't meen it must have been done misticaly. i had hoped that while of course you would know i wasn't realy useing supernatural powers you wouldn't be able to tell exacly how it was done. also i was hopeing that haveing you scepticaly evaluate my clame (as i knew you would) would help you under my point of view better as you would be force to be the sceptic looking in instead of the beleaver looking out. of course you figured out pritty quick how i did the trick so it failed quite miserably smile



Plus your statement of of course its interesting to note I did learn allot about you in reading all your old threads Whets interesting about that? What are you trying to insinuate? Please clarify that.



i wasn't trying to insinuate anything. all im saying is its intresting reading about someones life and your are of course very intresting and your life has been as well its also very well documented on hop. i would hope its helped me understand you a little better. i wasn't trying to be insulting. im just saying your an intresting person whos lead and intresting life nothing negative was intended. it was suposed to be a compliment though odviously that failed rather badly to frown (not doing very well am i)



yes I suppose, but mostly the way it was demanded of me (or yelled at me in robs case) I found that to be quite upsetting.



ok first of i'ed like to appologise for loseing my cool earlyer and shouting at you. looking back now it was regretable thing to do and i shouldn't have done it. i hope you'll accept my appology. but i'ed like to explain why i did it. Firstly let me say this is not the first debate i've had about the supernatural its an intrest of mine and i tend to be drawn to forums posts such as these (not just on hop). Anyway after posting in threads like this for afew years i've found there tends be a common progression



-beleavers we beleave in X

-non-beleavers we wont beleave in X until we see some proof of X

-Beleavers there is tons of proof of X lets call it Z

-non-beleavers Z wasn't collected under sientific conditions. a valid peaice of proof would be Y(some kind of experiment)

-beleavers we're not going to do Y, Z should be enough for you how can you not beleave after seeing Z.



at this point the debate is pritty much at an end an inpass has been reached. they never progress beond this stage. this is where we are now and have been for some time (since about page 6 of the thread). i tend to get frustrated at his point because no matter what i say or do, debates of this nature never go beond this stage. however the proof i need to accept a beleaf such as this would be found in the next step, every time i get within spitting distance of geting a clear answer and then the debate stops. And we end up going in cirles until everyone gets board and drops the subject compeatly without ever reaching a conclusion. This realy furstrates me every time it happens. but it was wrong to take those furstrations out on you and for that i apologigse. hug



also you said some of your question weren't answered could you collect them together and post them up again for us.



finaly you must understand the way i feel when you say you wont do the test. you could very easly convince me of your abilitys by compleateing it. i personaly would be facinated by the results of such testing. i would hope you would reconcider doing the testing so that we can progress this debate beond where they normaly end but at the very least i hope you can understand why refusing to do it frustrates me so.

EDITED_BY: robnunchucks (1165940392)


My nunchucks vital statictics biggrin

weight: 500g
handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches

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Mascot


Mascot

enthusiast


Total posts: 301
Posted: Written by: 87wt2gxq7



 Written by: the boy g



I think we must be happy to live and let live. We might think that other's world is wrong, but they can choose what to believe and no-one can take that away from them.



Same planet, diffrent worlds.





For some of us, that is not satisfactory. There is one world in which we all live, and things either happen or don't happen in it. Some of us want to know what the truth is, because then we can use it to improve our life.



If you don't know that the world is like, what's in it and what it does, then you're living in ignorance. In my opinion, choosing to settle for ignorance is the biggest waste of time, energy and neurons that I can imagine.





Don't get me wrong



I know which world I live in.



I don't think there are many here who are undecided, this thread is just a slagging match between those who believe one thing and those who believe another. No-one is settling for ignorance as far as I can see.

EDITED_BY: the boy g (1165935256)


Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes

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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted:I'm undecided!! Or rather I'm a skeptic who is all-too-willing to be presented with rigorous evidence that will compel me to change my mind and start believing in auras.

I think there's enough anecdotal evidence here, especially from Valura, to warrant a proper investigation into this.

However I doubt it'll happen just thanks to this thread alone. Also I doubt any established university department will be bold enough to carry out this research, and I don't know of any peer-reviewed journals that would be willing to publish it.

BTW, that's not a failing of science or the scientific method. Instead it's a failing of scientists and the scientific establishment, because people do have careers and funding budgets to worry about. So, I say, without actual numbers and references to back it up, the real failing is with the budgeteers ie politicians and businesses.


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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:It might be more to do with the fact that there has never been a demonstrated paranormal power in a scientifically rigorous setting (despite many claimed powers being easily testable) and the vast majority (but not all) of scientists involved in paranormal research are generally unscientific (demonstration:Project Alpha)

It wouldn't take a vast expenditure or trained professionals to carry out some preliminary tests. If they were good then people would start to take notice.

All it would take is one person willing to describe their alleged abilities and perform a few brief experiments. If someone would be willing to describe to us what they're powers and limitations are I could cook up a few preliminaries.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost, Canada

Total posts: 1247
Posted:robnunchucks, do you really think there is an experiment out there that could prove to someone that they are NOT experiencing something that they ARE experiencing?! Unlikely.

*Though I have been in some philosophy classes that made me question my very existence, so I could be wrong on that wink*

If I had time, was still in university, I would probably take you up on your offer Jeff. But what you are suggesting , if serious, is a really dedicated project that will take some major time and commitment. Maybe you could find someone living in Edinburgh willing to do that with you, I bet if you advertised at the University you could find volunteers etc.

I hope you are interested enough to pursue it and are not just laying down an insincere challenge. If you are genuine in your intention, I am sure you can find willing local volunteers, people to help generate funds,equipment, space, all the things necessary to lay out a good experiment.

But I would suggest you do a lot of preliminary research because I do think you are mistaken in underestimating the importance of understanding a subject in order to appropriately lay out the parameters of your study. And I don't think relying on a verbal description of someone who allegedly experiences these things is going to help all that much-- a person can tell you all sorts of things about what their heart feels like and what they think it does that will not lead anyone to the accurate understanding of the circulatory system.

And why would you think the study would be brief? It has taken us enormous amounts of time to achieve even minimal understanding of how we function physiologically, never mind mentally ,psycologicaly, and spiritually?!

A true scientific exploration of auras would involve a huge amount of interest and dedication, time and equipment,support and contributions from professionals in a wide variety of subject areas. I think the real reason so little is being done is that the task is so huge and nebulous that the very prospect is daunting.

I doubt the motivation is there from either side.


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost, Canada

Total posts: 1247
Posted:oh, and for the person who asked for references about the process of how the brain and the eyes create the sensation of seeing, the use of sound for sight etc...These studies were not done about auras, and refer to actual studies on sight.Sorry if that was confusing.

I was trying to demonstrate the point that in talking about studying/seeing auras, we should be aware not to over simplify the challenge , as we are not even all that scientifically certain how the "seeing" portion of our minds work, with new discoveries all the time.

But, I don't have references, and cant be bothered to look them up for you. The reason I don't have references, is because I was approaching things like a conversation, not proving or disproving anything, just communicating and sharing perspectives. Relating a subject that I heard of that interested me. I rarely if ever reference what I say in a conversation.

But if your interest is a real interest, you can put the effort in yourself to google it. So you have a place to start, I can tell you that I heard some of the studies summarized in a documentary on blindness on the Canadian radio service,the CBC, earlier this year.

The most engaging part was regarding a woman who had gone blind, and worked at a University, in the US I believe. She had a unit created for her to use sound waves that would generate images in her mind that would in fact allow her to "see" a form, like a doorway, or a table.

A poor garbled explanation of a fascinating detailed study-- sorry, but as I say, I was just listening out of interest, not retaining detail to prove anything to anyone. The institute for the blind may have more information available on this. Apparently the hope is that one day it can be used to help blind people "see'. In the process, there was a whole lot of discussion on how we actually define seeing... particularly if we don't truly need the eyes to produce the image.

It is worth looking around for on the internet , if you are a curious person. I found it made me think a lot about how our senses work together to generate our experience of the world.
******

And Jeff, I am appalled at how rude Fyrespirit, - others- were being, and very glad she apologized. Rudeness has nothing to do with spirit, or science. Sorry that people chose to communicate that way!


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Valura
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 6391
Posted:well Jeff fails to answer the questions yet again.

Im sure I shouldnt be surprised that he is blatantly ignoring my questions.

Otherwise you would have to discuss something that challenged your opinions wouldnt you Jeff? wink rolleyes

I came to the party dude, now hows about you show some respect for me also? confused


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted: Written by: BansheeCat


oh, and for the person who asked for references about the process of how the brain and the eyes create the sensation of seeing, the use of sound for sight etc...These studies were not done about auras, and refer to actual studies on sight.Sorry if that was confusing.


Yuppers, I got that you were talking about sight-perception, not auras.

 Written by: BansheeCat

I was trying to demonstrate the point that in talking about studying/seeing auras, we should be aware not to over simplify the challenge , as we are not even all that scientifically certain how the "seeing" portion of our minds work, with new discoveries all the time.


Yeah, the meagre amount of anatomy and physiology I've read up point to the fact that the brain is an extremely complex organ and that its functions are distributed 2 da max.


 Written by: BansheeCat

But, I don't have references, and cant be bothered to look them up for you. The reason I don't have references, is because I was approaching things like a conversation, not proving or disproving anything, just communicating and sharing perspectives. Relating a subject that I heard of that interested me. I rarely if ever reference what I say in a conversation.


Yup, that's why I edited my post to say I'm not going to demand any biggrin
As I said, we've all got busy lives and don't have the time to go chasing every last detail. I was just wondering if you had the refs handy. I too don't reference everything I say in an ordinary conversation, but in serious debate I try to wherever I can.


 Written by: BansheeCat

But if your interest is a real interest, you can put the effort in yourself to google it. So you have a place to start, I can tell you that I heard some of the studies summarized in a documentary on blindness on the Canadian radio service,the CBC, earlier this year.


Have tried, can't find anything, will continue to try. But thanks for the pointers!


 Written by: BansheeCat

In the process, there was a whole lot of discussion on how we actually define seeing... particularly if we don't truly need the eyes to produce the image.

It is worth looking around for on the internet , if you are a curious person. I found it made me think a lot about how our senses work together to generate our experience of the world.


Yups, neurophysiology is something that would probably really interest me (if I had the time to get more into it!). Also everything to do with perception and consciousness. If you've got any more pointers to articles of interest they will be received with gratitude and gusto! hug


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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost, Canada

Total posts: 1247
Posted:Hmmn,, well, though busy I can at least email the CBC and try to see if from my garbled description they know the name of the documentary I am talking about... will let you know what response I get!
smiles
a


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted:yey! 'nk you!

also, not relevant to what you said but interesting nonetheless!


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Domino
SILVER Member since May 2004

UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK

Total posts: 757
Posted: Written by: mcp


Somedays I wish a thread with this title would consist of lots of one line replies:

"I do"
"I do"
"I don't"
"I do"
"I don't"
"I don't"
"I don't"
"I do"
"I don't"
"I do"

but I think that must be a slight tendency to OCD.



Heheh, deal

I don't.


Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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Bek66


Bek66

Future Mrs Pogo
Location: The wrong place

Total posts: 4728
Posted:Okay...my very last post in here.

I would like to repeat that I was very wrong in my attitude of before...I tend to be opinionated at times and I let it get the better of me!

My personal beliefs are mine, and mine alone...as are the beliefs of everyone that shares this planet that gave us life.
We are all entitled to whatever those beliefs are...
Noone should tear down or disrespect another person for what they believe...or disbelieve for that matter.

I for one, do not believe that anyone should have to prove anything about their use of their spirituality or gifts that benefits themselves or others around them...
I do believe that we ALL have our own gifts...how or if we use them is entirely a matter of choice...free will.

Why don't we just say that the world is a wonderful place, full of individuals of all kinds with individual talents and gifts...and accept that as the way that life was intended to be from the beginning???

Peace and love...
Blessed be and a bottle of rum...
And all that good rot-rot!!!

peace meditate beerchug


"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost, Canada

Total posts: 1247
Posted:http://www.seeingwithsound.com/
br>
also, an article in the economist, of all places! http://www.economist.com/research/articl...ubjectid=348945
br>


and slightly different, but also interesting, look up "bats", blind auditory tactile mapping system in google... hug


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:just for the sake of continuing this pointlessness

jeff's attitude can come across as condenscending, this has come up in other conversations
also, i thought this was about seeing auras or are we including tangible energy fields, because if one disputes the validity of auras, then they would in turn dispute the seeing of said aura
just trying to clear this up so i can continue to participate on topic


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Valura


well Jeff fails to answer the questions yet again.


If you have a question which you believe is relevant that wasn't addressed then feel free to repost it.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk

Total posts: 363
Posted:Valura while your at it i've got afew questions you've not answered i'll reposted them again try to keep them breaf



1. though you've said you wont use your powers to make money you still haven't explained why you couldn't compleat the JRF Challange and give the 1.2 million to worthy charritys?



2. what would it take to convince you that auras are not real or can nothing convince you?



3. how is makeing a living out of reading auras any diffrent from completeing the $1.2 million challange? why willing to do one but not the other?





"Otherwise you would have to discuss something that challenged your opinions wouldnt you Jeff?"

im intreagued i'ed be very intrested to see what you have.



ether way i think its fair to say this thread is comeing to an end so i'll just say if not one person on a planet of 6 billion is both willing and able to show they can read auras under scientific conditions you can hardly blame me for been sceptical.

EDITED_BY: robnunchucks (1166009860)


My nunchucks vital statictics biggrin

weight: 500g
handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 4525
Posted:I don't think this thread can come up with a nice answer. Kinda like the evolution vs ID thread!

Us aura- believers have no way whatsoever of showing you an aura. You have to do that yourselves with meditation and so forth.

To be honest, maybe Valura is with me on this one(?) I'm not bothered either way if other people believe in them or not. I know it to be true, and I think that's what matters. hug


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:What's striking about this thread is how so many participants have wound up feeling personally attacked.

Valura, there's been no indication from you or anyone else that you've been in any way offended by anything I've said, but, judging by how slighted you've felt by some of Jeffs posts and, having read in one of your previous posts just how big a part of your life the energy stuff is- I feel there is a risk of it.

So, if I have, I'll apologise and say honestly that it was not my intention.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I do feel sad that, IMO, this thread was such a great opportunity for communication between the sceptics and the energy workers if they could both have embraced a bit of real objectivity and not taken things so personally.

I've spent several years living in both those camps/worlds simultaneously (the sceptical scientific world and the 'magical' world) so I guess it's a lot easier for me to be objective.

I can assure everyone that it is entirely possible to have 'a foot in both worlds' and for there to be no conflict, either 'inner' or externally.

IMO, to do so is highly beneficial to both sets of beliefs and resolves much of the stress that can result from being focused only on one set.

I've been thinking about starting a thread on the issue of reconciliation of these two, initially incompatible seeming, ways of life/belief.

Any interest?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Ah the triumph of logic.

ubblol

why is this thread at an end because the three or four people that cant agree, cant agree?


Love is the law.

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