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The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:Hi all

I've been studying the use of complementary therapies in palliative care for a research project at Uni. I've been looking at how these often clinically unproven therapies are being integrated into conventional medical care for the dying, the reasons for it and the benefits of it e.t.c.

One of the things I've been up to is watching a therapist give reiki treatments to patients. I started talking to the therapist afterwards about the 'energy body' and if she can see it. She says she just feels the energy, but cannot see it.

I personally would like to believe that we each have an aura or 'energy body', but at the same time I don't like buying into things without a healthy dose of scepticism also. So I was wondering what you guys all think...

If anyone also wants to argue for or against auras, or give their personal experiences with 'energy', I'm interested in whatever you guys have to say.

Cheers.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:Quiet, you make very clear logical points, to be sure. But you may want to understand that some people dont venerate logical as the be all and end all, and may also want to enjoy the mystery...



As for health care benefitting from access to these treatments, why, many do. There is laying on of hands( healing) in my local hospital, and energy work is widely available. It is not being denied anyone.



As for crazy ideas, some working, and some not, I did say that some may be validated and other will not be. Of course. As with logical scientific theories too. But crazy is a matter of perception, and perceptions do change.



An example is that for ages, my work as a herbalist was considered " quackery" by the mainstream medical profession for years. . I knew it was valid, for the simle reason I could see it worked, and had relied on centuries of practical expereince and knowledge of other herbalists... So I did not engage in the arguement. People that wanted that approach to healing could have it, if they did not, oh well. No problem.



Now, mainstream medicine and scientists are all over the herbal treatments, turning it into an "industry", and declaring use of certain plants and formulations " valid" because they have now found and measured all the active components in the plants,and can produce standardized versions blah blah blah... Interesting, occassionally useful, but no practicing herbalist was waiting with bated breath for their validation, and in fact, the approach of isolating compounds out of the plants is probably a detriment to our field rather than a help. But that is a different discussion...





Expereince should not be discounted. You can ask someone I do a healing with how they feel after, and if they say better, or if in time there illness goes away, why should that not count? Even if they are " just" reacting to the sensation of being cared for, or a placebo effect based on their beleif system, they still feel better. Is that not the major point?



The people that want to quantify, define, analyse, and duplicate are free to do that, and are in fact working on doing that, and may one day develop the necessary tools to look at these things effectively.The people interested in working in that area are doing so. Why worry about it?



I rejoice in that there are so many people out there looking at things in different ways, and that is why I introduced the idea of reference points-- You did not comment much on my main point about bacteria, not that their existence was such a crazy idea, but rather that the idea had to be in place before the necessary tols was developed. Yes, there was a series of observed phenomnena that lead to the exploration of that idea. I beleive the expereince of auras, and peoples observations about them, are why we are having this discussion. So perhaps, the concrete observations and circumstantial information will accumulate on this subject too, and we will develop from there...

smiles,

Andrea


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:For the record, I don't venerate logic as the be-all and end-all. There's lots of other stuff which is lots more important; but it's a useful tool, nonetheless, and being illogical is a serious shortcoming. Mostly because if you're illogical you'll get the wrong answers on a regular basis.

Nor do I discount experience; if it works, fine. If it improves people's quality of life, fine.

My only remaining concern is this: if you have a cure for an illness, then it's downright irresponsible not to engage with the wider community, or with 'the argument', as you put it. If you think that cholera and unclean drinking water are connected, you shouldn't just wait for cholera-stricken communities to come to you for help; you should get involved with getting that information across, and part of this will involve generating evidence. So I'm still puzzled about people's reluctance to engage in such debate.


ture na sig

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:I can understand that, I just feel that many * are* engaged in the debate, and in fact applying what they know on a daily basis...
~a


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted:its not whether you believe in them or not...

its that they are, they exist.. they are an extension of your physical body...

they are energy vibrating at a frequency that the physical eye is unable to 'see'...

but it is you.

and everything has one.

its got nothing to do with "whether" they exist or not. they exist.

its got nothing to do with "belief" either. whether you believe in them or not, they are still as real.

i know my experience of reality has been greatly enhanced since acknowledging their existence...

wouldn't be able to heal as effectively if i didnt work with their energy...


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: shen shui
its not whether you believe in them or not...
its that they are, they exist.. they are an extension of your physical body...


Argument by assertion is not very convincing.

Written by: shen shui
they are energy vibrating at a frequency that the physical eye is unable to 'see'...


And we're back to using pseudo-scientific concepts in order to make it sound plausible. If there's an energy vibrating at any frequency, then we should easily be able to detect it, even if not with our own eyeballs.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:it's not whether you believe in them or not....
it's that Astrally Projected Fairy Brain Beavers exist... they are an extension of your physical body...
they are natural harmonics in the fabric of space-time that your physical senses cannot detect...
but they are you.
and everyone has two.
it's got nothing to do with whether they exist *cough*
it's got nothing to do with belief, either. they keep on building their astrally projected fairy brain dams whether you believe or not.
i know my experience of reality has been greatly enhanced since acknowledging their existence.
i wouldn't be able to build sandcastles as effectively if i didn't work with their little beavery paws.

*cough*

sorry, shen shui, but that was really asking for it.


ture na sig

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Tee hee hee! ubblol

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:Oh Quiet! Delightful to see you being so creative! ;-)

Now I can visualize people out there making "sand castles" with you, taking advantage of your significantly enhanced experience to theorize about fairy beavers, dams, couples, pawing, ... ... and who know where that will lead...

Oh. Hmmn. Maybe I dont want to visualize that. Anyone have any idea how to remove things from our templates?lol


Slightly more seriously, I think the point was simple, that existence is not belief dependent. Things will exist, or not, whether we ever find them, or not.

*** Although quantum mechanics is beginning to call that into question...

Part of the problem when someone tries to describe their experience of auras etc, is a lack of appropraite vocabulary. Because it does not fit neatly into our typical experiences, sometimes we have to make the kind of description by partial comparision I described earlier, and borrow vocabulary/images from other areas, mostly scientific disiplines, to try to capture the sense of something as of yet undefined.

. It is just an attempt to attempt to describe the experience, or the nature of the idea. Hence you get the use of terms like vibrations, harmonics, other words that actually have technical definations that dont quite fit the context. This often garners critisism. But people are not always using them that literally, they may be trying to describe something we dont actually have appropriate terms for yet. That goes back to the point that we will need to develop ideas, then vocabulary to discuss them, then the tools....so on.

But I would not be so harsh about people using the words to try and tell you what they understand and think,. It is not neccessarily an attempt to be " pseudoscientific." The "correct" vocabulary will come after the other stages of investigation. In the meantime, if you really listen, you might still find what they are trying to describe and communicate of interest. It may lead people to where and how we should begin investigating the subject...
~A


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Sporky
Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow
Member Since: 25th Jul 2005
Total posts: 663
Posted:Most people seem to be missing one point: whats real for one person might not necessarily be real for everyone else. What we as individuals see, hear, taste, smell and touch is merely the way our brain interprets the electronic signals transmitted from parts of the body that specialise in detecting external signals. The way our brain interprets these signals might be completely different for each of us. What I see as red might actually be what I see as blue to someone else but to them its still red to them irrespective of how I interpret the signals. Remember Morpheus' speech to Neo when they are talking about the history of the matrix (the one beginning "What is real?"), thats what I'm trying to get at. What I'm saying is that 'reality' is different for all of us so perhaps auras exist in some people's 'reality' but not in others. Perhaps everyone here should respect that.



Ps Quiet: have you found out about funding yet?


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:I don't see people walking around in a ball of fire...Auras are invisible to me, although I can see something, there is no color though, like when I look at my hand, I can see layers, like an onion, or like magnetic feild lines.

But I have been able to see "something" with color, even when someone is hidden behind solid objects (like rock walls)

The color (if it can be called color) is black/magenta/purple kind of fuzzy around the edgesm usually oval in shape (roughly the size and shape of a person)

The first time was an accident, but after that I used to practice "seeing" people thought doors and stuff.

II never quite got to were I could "see" it the same way, when someone was not hidden behind something.

I believe it is not my eyes seeing it though, it is mearly processed though my visual centers. That is why that "color" realy is no color that exsists. When I see it, it is almost like a blind spot in my vision, like a place that does not exist. And the "color" is no color I have ever seen in the real world.

I have also seen an oposite color, twice. like a solid white glow, soft around the edges. when I was 5 I saw a small thing fly by my window. and when I was 15 I saw it like white paint splattered on my hand and the arm of my jacket, but I blinked, and it dissapeared.

like two opposite endes of the spectrum. What spectrum that is, I do not know.

Have you ever noticed that the radio will fade if you walk in front of the radio? Well, that means your body is absorbing radio waves. This generated an electric field... so maybe some people can sence radio waves? That is my only guess that doesn't involve a spiritual world..


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:onefinalstep- very good point, and well said!

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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TinklePants
TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2005
Total posts: 4217
Posted:right I'm just gonna say this quick as I need to drop my daughter off at school (so sorry if i repeat anything already posted)
I believe auras do exist as everything has an electrical signature - (think electrons orbiting and all that)
and since energy can't just disappear (it just changes from one form to another) i believe it is left behind when we die - our soul/spirit. I believe in ghosts too and i think its a mighty good explaination for them!


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:No it isn't, the energy in our bodies gets converted to heat as we cool down, and then is eaten by bacteria and stuff as we decay. There's no need to invoke souls to show where the energy goes.

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:We're all going to die. People need to come to terms with that and live a good life rather than trying to find ways to continue forever.

That's just my opinion anyway.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Concerning the fact that energy can't just dissapear, and the use of that fact to expain ghosts.



It's very common for that to be said, so I'll just point out that while energy indeed cannot dissapear, it also tends not to stay in the same place. Most energy moves, very quickly (often at the speed of light); think of the energy coming out of the sun which heads off at around 186,000 miles per second.



So, any energy radiated from a dying human body will tend to immediately go elsewhere, rather than linger for centuries in the form of a ghostly entity.



I think with auras/ghosts/psychic stuff/mysteries there can be two approaches-



1. science can't explain everything- these things are real in a realm in which science is not particularly relevant, so they need no scientific validation



a controversial approach, but one which I can respect



2. Offering scientific explanations for these phenomenon



The problem is that, the majority of the time, the 'explanations' offered are literally pulled from one sentence that someone happens to have read whilst flicking through some article on science in a magazine, and actually has no basis whatsoever in real science.



And this benefits no-one, especially those trying to validate the above phenomenon.



If science is to be used to explain these phenomena, it has to be goodscience and there has to be some rigour applied, otherwise the 'crank' label is going to remain on those trying to investigate them.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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TinklePants
TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2005
Total posts: 4217
Posted:spiralx i agree with some of the things you said but I'm thinking more of the mental energy - you know how powerful a brain is, it cant all be eaten by the worms.
As soon as the brain shuts down, that energy that kept us going since being born (or since the fetus is established - whichever) has to be tranferred somewhere, I mean - you cant be eaten immediately after you die (unless you died because of an unlucky safari trek)

I think the exact time your aura/soul leaves your physical body is that time you lose your bladder and bowel control!(sorry folks but its a well known and yukky fact!)


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Mental energy is just electric and chemical energy which constantly produces heat while we're alive. Once you're dead then the brain stops receiving energy as your heart stops pumping blood to it and so the brain stops and there's no energy to disperse. There is no one cutoff point where the brain "stops" and all of that energy vanishes.

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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TinklePants
TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2005
Total posts: 4217
Posted:but that disobeys the laws of physics - the energy does not vanish, it has to go somewhere!!!

Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:The heat energy of the body and brain goes into heating the air surrounding the body and from there into the atmosphere in general; the radiated energy is radiated away.

The energy does not dissapear in the sense of ceasing to be, it dissapears in the sense of going elsewhere.

The energy scoots off, and the laws of physics are left intact smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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TinklePants
TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2005
Total posts: 4217
Posted:wouldn't that technically be a heatblast/shockwave on the minor scale?

I doubt you can really understand unless you've been in someone's presence as they've died.

still, thats my belief, and no one can change that.


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:quote: 'still, thats my belief, and no one can change that.'

a belief which is immune to revision or change? isn't that what they call 'dogma'?

i mean, i believe in all kinds of stuff - electrons, badgers, the existence of North America - but if someone comes up with convincing evidence to the contary, i might change my mind.

ps onefinalstep; the ahrc has apparently printed the letter, so i'll find out in the next few days. i'll keep you posted.


ture na sig

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TinklePants
TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2005
Total posts: 4217
Posted:ah but I'm not a religious person, just spiritual. I'm not trying to convert anyone to errrr Tammie-anity, just letting you know there's all sorts off possibilities, pick n choose one dudes, Its your life.

or your death muhahahaha ubblol angel


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: Tinklepants

wouldn't that technically be a heatblast/shockwave on the minor scale?


Why? The brain doesn't use that much energy - potentials across neurons are in the order of millivolts I believe. And the whole point is this energy is constantly being lost as waste all the time while you're alive - but when you're alive it's being replaced by energy in your blood.

So when you die your brain stops being refuelled and eventually cools down because all the reactions in it stop. There's no sudden increase in loss of energy over when you were alive.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:A poem my friend Jessie wrote:



"of mystics & madmen- of the twilight language



And all this knowledge is in the souls of everything,

behind naming, before speaking, beneath words.

And all this knowledge is in the seat of your pants,

the heart of your breast, the cup of your coffee.

And all this knowledge is in your inner ear

your outer cheek

your breath on the wind

and all this knowledge is laced between your fingers

in the lines of your face

under the soles of your feet

And all this knowledge is so full and so complete and so

ultimately accessible that all this knowledge is

lost.


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Superman
Superman

member
Location: Houston, Texas
Member Since: 13th Mar 2001
Total posts: 829
Posted:there are people thAT SAY they can see auras....that wowuld be cool, but i believe that i can feel a persons aura. When you get with in a proximity of a person, depending on how open they are, you can feel their electobes jumping off of them onto you sort of like cosmic fleas or something.

but thats just me
Super'


Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear--not absence of fear.


- Mark Twain

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spritie
spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX
Member Since: 9th Sep 2001
Total posts: 2014
Posted:Holy COW!!! Now here's a stranger I haven't seen in ages. It's good to see you back, Super.

oh, and to be on topic, I agree. smile


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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Ahh... auras.

Funny how my gut instinct, that is all the subconcious signals that I pick up without realising, seem to work just as well.

Also funny how people who claim to see auras can get tricked by conmen just as easily as the rest of us (perhaps easier?).

Just two thoughts, make your your own conclusions, I'm feeling lazy.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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RaveRepresent
RaveRepresent

addict

Member Since: 7th May 2006
Total posts: 567
Posted:I think Auras are true. There are certain things like The 13 Crystal Skulls, and Stigmatta, alot of unexplainable things. I believe we all have an inner power that has to be unleashed. It may not be an actual power such as flying and controling weather, maybe something a little like telekenesis/telepathy. Some examples of simular movements i have seen is the karate style of Tai Chi. The bodies energy which can be manipulated throughout the body, chi can hit someone from inches away. These are people who dedicate years. But imagine people that would dedicate each second of their life to Tai Chi. Just like we do with poi, we learn new moves that no one has seen. Now imagine that with Chi. Imagine that you could add onto Chi. What if you can manipulate someone ELSES chi? Can you knock them out? Can you throw them down from afar?!? Then again i could just be crazy... ubbloco NO ONE TOUCH ME! NO ONE! MWHAHA... yeah im going with the crazy excuse...

"I don't know what you are talking about"

"Cardinal!!! Poke her... with the SOFT CUSIONS!!!!"

"Its not working my lord!"

"Have you got all of the stuffing on one end?!"

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shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted:hi.

i'd just like to say, before you read this, that i am only just now really beginning to understand what im about to write about, i am only just recently been able to feel what i will say to you, and i know that this is just the beginning of something really interesting... its taken me a few years of practicing to be where i am at the moment, and in that time i've grown more of the opinion that these things DO exist, and i feel that in so believing (having faith / intuition) i have been able to help cultivate this, so that, i experience life as i do, and its all very fun. smile


i do tai ji and qigong, and i help people in healing themselves by using acupuncture, massage, enegry work, and dietary therapy..

part of my practice is in entering a meditative state and opening up energy centres in my body that facilitate the contraction and expansion of energy into and out of my body. i generally breathe into my chakras / dan tians via the root and crown chakras / acupoints on the feet, perineum and crown of the head, and breathe out through my heart chakra, and down my arms and out a chakra / acupoint in the centre of my hands. understandably, theres a little bit more to it than that, but you get the idea, im sure...

i feel this energy entering and exiting my body. i feel it circulate within my body. i can direct it with my intent. this is how i breathe it in and out. i can see colours of certain chakras / dan tians that im opening when im meditating or doing qigong. i can generate heat in various locations in my body....

sometimes, i can see vague outlines of a silvery appearance around people when i access certain states of mind through meditaiton. its my understanding that the more i practice the more i shall be able to perceive.

when healing happens, i assist my clients in rebalancing their energy centres and meridians by inserting fine needles into certain locations on the body and using various forms of intent, influence their qi to stimulate certain responses on a physiological, physical level, as well as on mental and emotional levels. i also colour the qi that i direct into them (its not my qi, its qi drawn in from "heaven" and "earth" (yang / yin), depending on whats going on... different colours for different pathologies.. as well as using needles or massaging the body in certain ways, i also just place on hands on certain locations and breathe qi directly into that place... it makes my hands and arms hot and tingley.

when i meditate i can get that sensation around my entire body, like im big and puffy and fluffy and warm and fuzzy and stuff. it is a very enjoyable sensation to have. emotionally it makes me feel very peaceful and happy and content. doing this regularly helps to make life very smooth and nice and stuff. of course, there are always bumps along the road, but its easier to deal with them now than what it used to be like, and bumps happen less frequently (i think this has a lot to do with ones previous state of mind (as all your decisions up to now have pretty much created who you are, you are a product of your past.. all the conditioning and teaching you received, blahblah...)...

the mental and emotional bodies exist energetically, too. they comprise parts of our aura. they are like layers, or eggs within eggs. each various energy body (remember, the physical body is an energetic body too) is of a different vibration on the energetic spectrum (just like colour and sound are at various wavelengths of energy, so are we. our mental and emotional bodies vibrate at finer frequencies of energy than does our physical body)...

that qi breathing that i was talking about earlier, it also pumps me full of qi, too, as it flows through me, so that i feel more energetic and buoyant and stuff. if you do energy work and you feel drained afterwards, its because you're giving your own energy, and now universal energy.

i also help people make better nutritional and supplemental decisions. food and vitamins / minerals / herbs are obviously energetic in nature and when consumed in a beneficial manner are greatly able to assist people in obtaining and maintaining health and wellness.... i find it nice to have that balance between the yang of energy work and the yin of food work.

because its all about your perceptions, and knowing and utilizing perceptions of a finer / higher vibration of energy that is unseen by the majorty of people because they dont realise its there, they dont believe its there, they dont cultivate the ability to see it. its a skill, its just like teaching your muscles to perform a certain task. everybody is able to cultivate this perception of energy. it just takes time and dedication...

everybody has areas in their life that they are good at and find things easier to do than other things... but we all have the potential to do anything, i think.

so to me, in my perception of reality, they exist, because i interact with them consciously.

thanx.


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted:what a rant. wow.

its ironic to read all that and then read my signature. wink

hehe.

:P

because really, i dont know anything. (and who or what is the "i" that doesnt know?)...


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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