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The Tea FairySILVER Member
old hand
853 posts
Location: Behind you...


Posted:
Hi all

I've been studying the use of complementary therapies in palliative care for a research project at Uni. I've been looking at how these often clinically unproven therapies are being integrated into conventional medical care for the dying, the reasons for it and the benefits of it e.t.c.

One of the things I've been up to is watching a therapist give reiki treatments to patients. I started talking to the therapist afterwards about the 'energy body' and if she can see it. She says she just feels the energy, but cannot see it.

I personally would like to believe that we each have an aura or 'energy body', but at the same time I don't like buying into things without a healthy dose of scepticism also. So I was wondering what you guys all think...

If anyone also wants to argue for or against auras, or give their personal experiences with 'energy', I'm interested in whatever you guys have to say.

Cheers.

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


Mascotenthusiast
301 posts

Posted:
 Written by: 87wt2gxq7



 Written by: the boy g



I think we must be happy to live and let live. We might think that other's world is wrong, but they can choose what to believe and no-one can take that away from them.



Same planet, diffrent worlds.





For some of us, that is not satisfactory. There is one world in which we all live, and things either happen or don't happen in it. Some of us want to know what the truth is, because then we can use it to improve our life.



If you don't know that the world is like, what's in it and what it does, then you're living in ignorance. In my opinion, choosing to settle for ignorance is the biggest waste of time, energy and neurons that I can imagine.





Don't get me wrong



I know which world I live in.



I don't think there are many here who are undecided, this thread is just a slagging match between those who believe one thing and those who believe another. No-one is settling for ignorance as far as I can see.
EDITED_BY: the boy g (1165935256)

Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
It might be more to do with the fact that there has never been a demonstrated paranormal power in a scientifically rigorous setting (despite many claimed powers being easily testable) and the vast majority (but not all) of scientists involved in paranormal research are generally unscientific (demonstration:Project Alpha)

It wouldn't take a vast expenditure or trained professionals to carry out some preliminary tests. If they were good then people would start to take notice.

All it would take is one person willing to describe their alleged abilities and perform a few brief experiments. If someone would be willing to describe to us what they're powers and limitations are I could cook up a few preliminaries.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


BansheeCatBRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada


Posted:
robnunchucks, do you really think there is an experiment out there that could prove to someone that they are NOT experiencing something that they ARE experiencing?! Unlikely.

*Though I have been in some philosophy classes that made me question my very existence, so I could be wrong on that wink*

If I had time, was still in university, I would probably take you up on your offer Jeff. But what you are suggesting , if serious, is a really dedicated project that will take some major time and commitment. Maybe you could find someone living in Edinburgh willing to do that with you, I bet if you advertised at the University you could find volunteers etc.

I hope you are interested enough to pursue it and are not just laying down an insincere challenge. If you are genuine in your intention, I am sure you can find willing local volunteers, people to help generate funds,equipment, space, all the things necessary to lay out a good experiment.

But I would suggest you do a lot of preliminary research because I do think you are mistaken in underestimating the importance of understanding a subject in order to appropriately lay out the parameters of your study. And I don't think relying on a verbal description of someone who allegedly experiences these things is going to help all that much-- a person can tell you all sorts of things about what their heart feels like and what they think it does that will not lead anyone to the accurate understanding of the circulatory system.

And why would you think the study would be brief? It has taken us enormous amounts of time to achieve even minimal understanding of how we function physiologically, never mind mentally ,psycologicaly, and spiritually?!

A true scientific exploration of auras would involve a huge amount of interest and dedication, time and equipment,support and contributions from professionals in a wide variety of subject areas. I think the real reason so little is being done is that the task is so huge and nebulous that the very prospect is daunting.

I doubt the motivation is there from either side.

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."


BansheeCatBRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada


Posted:
oh, and for the person who asked for references about the process of how the brain and the eyes create the sensation of seeing, the use of sound for sight etc...These studies were not done about auras, and refer to actual studies on sight.Sorry if that was confusing.

I was trying to demonstrate the point that in talking about studying/seeing auras, we should be aware not to over simplify the challenge , as we are not even all that scientifically certain how the "seeing" portion of our minds work, with new discoveries all the time.

But, I don't have references, and cant be bothered to look them up for you. The reason I don't have references, is because I was approaching things like a conversation, not proving or disproving anything, just communicating and sharing perspectives. Relating a subject that I heard of that interested me. I rarely if ever reference what I say in a conversation.

But if your interest is a real interest, you can put the effort in yourself to google it. So you have a place to start, I can tell you that I heard some of the studies summarized in a documentary on blindness on the Canadian radio service,the CBC, earlier this year.

The most engaging part was regarding a woman who had gone blind, and worked at a University, in the US I believe. She had a unit created for her to use sound waves that would generate images in her mind that would in fact allow her to "see" a form, like a doorway, or a table.

A poor garbled explanation of a fascinating detailed study-- sorry, but as I say, I was just listening out of interest, not retaining detail to prove anything to anyone. The institute for the blind may have more information available on this. Apparently the hope is that one day it can be used to help blind people "see'. In the process, there was a whole lot of discussion on how we actually define seeing... particularly if we don't truly need the eyes to produce the image.

It is worth looking around for on the internet , if you are a curious person. I found it made me think a lot about how our senses work together to generate our experience of the world.
******

And Jeff, I am appalled at how rude Fyrespirit, - others- were being, and very glad she apologized. Rudeness has nothing to do with spirit, or science. Sorry that people chose to communicate that way!

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."


ValuraSILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Posted:
well Jeff fails to answer the questions yet again.

Im sure I shouldnt be surprised that he is blatantly ignoring my questions.

Otherwise you would have to discuss something that challenged your opinions wouldnt you Jeff? wink rolleyes

I came to the party dude, now hows about you show some respect for me also? confused

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"


BansheeCatBRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada


Posted:
Hmmn,, well, though busy I can at least email the CBC and try to see if from my garbled description they know the name of the documentary I am talking about... will let you know what response I get!
smiles
a

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."


DominoSILVER Member
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
757 posts
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK


Posted:
 Written by: mcp


Somedays I wish a thread with this title would consist of lots of one line replies:

"I do"
"I do"
"I don't"
"I do"
"I don't"
"I don't"
"I don't"
"I do"
"I don't"
"I do"

but I think that must be a slight tendency to OCD.



Heheh, deal

I don't.

Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.


Bek66Future Mrs Pogo
4,728 posts
Location: The wrong place


Posted:
Okay...my very last post in here.

I would like to repeat that I was very wrong in my attitude of before...I tend to be opinionated at times and I let it get the better of me!

My personal beliefs are mine, and mine alone...as are the beliefs of everyone that shares this planet that gave us life.
We are all entitled to whatever those beliefs are...
Noone should tear down or disrespect another person for what they believe...or disbelieve for that matter.

I for one, do not believe that anyone should have to prove anything about their use of their spirituality or gifts that benefits themselves or others around them...
I do believe that we ALL have our own gifts...how or if we use them is entirely a matter of choice...free will.

Why don't we just say that the world is a wonderful place, full of individuals of all kinds with individual talents and gifts...and accept that as the way that life was intended to be from the beginning???

Peace and love...
Blessed be and a bottle of rum...
And all that good rot-rot!!!

peace meditate beerchug

"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin


BansheeCatBRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada


Posted:
https://www.seeingwithsound.com/

also, an article in the economist, of all places! https://www.economist.com/research/articl...ubjectid=348945



and slightly different, but also interesting, look up "bats", blind auditory tactile mapping system in google... hug

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."


faith enfireBRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA


Posted:
just for the sake of continuing this pointlessness

jeff's attitude can come across as condenscending, this has come up in other conversations
also, i thought this was about seeing auras or are we including tangible energy fields, because if one disputes the validity of auras, then they would in turn dispute the seeing of said aura
just trying to clear this up so i can continue to participate on topic

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
 Written by: Valura


well Jeff fails to answer the questions yet again.


If you have a question which you believe is relevant that wasn't addressed then feel free to repost it.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
Valura while your at it i've got afew questions you've not answered i'll reposted them again try to keep them breaf



1. though you've said you wont use your powers to make money you still haven't explained why you couldn't compleat the JRF Challange and give the 1.2 million to worthy charritys?



2. what would it take to convince you that auras are not real or can nothing convince you?



3. how is makeing a living out of reading auras any diffrent from completeing the $1.2 million challange? why willing to do one but not the other?





"Otherwise you would have to discuss something that challenged your opinions wouldnt you Jeff?"

im intreagued i'ed be very intrested to see what you have.



ether way i think its fair to say this thread is comeing to an end so i'll just say if not one person on a planet of 6 billion is both willing and able to show they can read auras under scientific conditions you can hardly blame me for been sceptical.
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jo_rhymesSILVER Member
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom


Posted:
I don't think this thread can come up with a nice answer. Kinda like the evolution vs ID thread!

Us aura- believers have no way whatsoever of showing you an aura. You have to do that yourselves with meditation and so forth.

To be honest, maybe Valura is with me on this one(?) I'm not bothered either way if other people believe in them or not. I know it to be true, and I think that's what matters. hug

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
What's striking about this thread is how so many participants have wound up feeling personally attacked.

Valura, there's been no indication from you or anyone else that you've been in any way offended by anything I've said, but, judging by how slighted you've felt by some of Jeffs posts and, having read in one of your previous posts just how big a part of your life the energy stuff is- I feel there is a risk of it.

So, if I have, I'll apologise and say honestly that it was not my intention.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
I do feel sad that, IMO, this thread was such a great opportunity for communication between the sceptics and the energy workers if they could both have embraced a bit of real objectivity and not taken things so personally.

I've spent several years living in both those camps/worlds simultaneously (the sceptical scientific world and the 'magical' world) so I guess it's a lot easier for me to be objective.

I can assure everyone that it is entirely possible to have 'a foot in both worlds' and for there to be no conflict, either 'inner' or externally.

IMO, to do so is highly beneficial to both sets of beliefs and resolves much of the stress that can result from being focused only on one set.

I've been thinking about starting a thread on the issue of reconciliation of these two, initially incompatible seeming, ways of life/belief.

Any interest?

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


ado-pGOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland


Posted:
Ah the triumph of logic.

ubblol

why is this thread at an end because the three or four people that cant agree, cant agree?

Love is the law.


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
 Written by: onewheeldave


I've been thinking about starting a thread on the issue of reconciliation of these two, initially incompatible seeming, ways of life/belief.

Any interest?


I am, but I don't see how that could be accomplished without aura believers being open to the possibility of being wrong.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
if you can suggest a solution to the problem that would convince one side or the other. then go for it but as far as i can see the only way i can see of brakeing the deadlock is with some sort of sicentific testing something non of the beleavers are unwilling to undertake. ether the skeptics must become willing to accept a lower burden of proof or the beleavers must become willing do perform sicentific testing. unless one or the other happens i dont see how we can get a resolution.



but of coures i've been wrong many times before and if you've got an idea for sorting this all out go for it biggrin
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robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
actualy i've had an idea for a thread i've been thinking about.



How do people determin truth.



odviously several of us use the scientific method but clearly many people dont i would be intrested to see what stratagys they have for determining if somethign is truth. it might help us better understand why they beleave what they do and vica verca.



what you recon? i'ed be very intrested in that kinda thread.
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StoutBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
Any interest ? Yes, IMO the difference between these two worlds and how people draw inspiration form either of these two opposing ( emotional vs logical ) or (belief vs reason) as a means to formulate ideology and actually live their lives, is the most interesting aspect of this whole discussion.

jo_rhymesSILVER Member
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom


Posted:
I take great offence at you basically classing me as someone who is irrational!
What is illogical about it?

Ok I can feel an aura, or some kind of energy emitting from people's bodies. Wouldnt it be irrational to just think, "no, it's all in my head?"
when there are other people out there experiencing the same thing I am, and calling them auras, I see it as logical to place myself in that bracket of people.

I am perfectly able to reason, and if you can prove 99% that it IS all in my mind, and aura's are just a figment of my imagination, then of course I'll change my paradigm.

Til then, this is not emotional vs logical or belief vs reason.

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
 Written by: jo_rhymes



Us aura- believers have no way whatsoever of showing you an aura. You have to do that yourselves with meditation and so forth.







See? That's what I meant by my previous posts frown



And apart from that, the sceptics on here don't actually ask to be shown auras. Some of us are quite willing to believe that they do exist, and you can see them but we might never be able to, but would like to be shown that you see them.



You may not care if we believe in them or not, but to many of us it is a potential bit of reality that we're missing out on and we would like to know more about.



Once there is (potentially) proof that someone can see them, people will be able to work on

- why that is, and why other people can't

- what information auras can give

- how people who can't see them may be able to, if it's really just down to meditation or if it is a generic ability some just can't acquire. Could there be devices, like hearing aids, constructed to make us perceive "aura" waves we otherwise can't?



Maybe this way of thinking doesn't fit in with spirituality. But if auras are real, and electromagnetic waves, then they can be viewed as that. And there will be reasons why, like standard visible light, or the difference between red and green, some people can see them and others can't.



Lastly, if auras, viewings etc, actually tell you about people and there is a way to verify this, they could be used to do lots of good. There could be more people educated to be healers, and with some kind of quality certificate, too, to reduce the number of charlatans out there. They could be used to help convict, or free wrongly convicted, people. You could use them to find missing people who have aged or changed their appearance, and to identify criminals. Imagine how it could help the work of hospitals and care homes!



That's why I think that those convinced of auras and their power, and say they use them to help others, should go for the proof. If it is true that they exist, and it is true that you could prove that but don't really care to do that, you potentially deprive lots of people of the benefits that proof would bring.



And who knows, maybe if scientists at some point understand things that so far are filed under "belief only", they may be able to help you find ways to see auras better, or get more out of them, even do healings better or reduce negative effects on yourself like you said you had, Valura.
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(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
Wouldnt it be irrational to just think, "no, it's all in my head?" when there are other people out there experiencing the same thing I am, and calling them auras, I see it as logical to place myself in that bracket of people.



no that is not the rational thing to do because you never actualy checked to make sure it wasn't just all in your head you just assumed it wasn't. you'll also note that non of the other people the aura group check to make sure it wasn't all in there head they simply assumed it wasn't. this assumption is the problem.



the rational thing to do would be to test your abilitys useing controled sicentific methods to determin if it was all in your head or not? only after you passed those tests could you say that logicaly it wasn't all in your head



however to date no one has ever been able to do that which is why the seceptics persist. if you want to have it proved one way or another take up the JRF challange not only will they determing if its all in your head or not but if it isn't you will be given $1.2 million think of it as playing the lottery but with better odds wink



note: many people see colours and shapes that arn't there such as people with synatsisa (incorrect spelling) yet you didn't group your selfs with them what was your reasoning for picking auras over synathesesa?
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jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
 Written by: jo_rhymes


I am perfectly able to reason, and if you can prove 99% that it IS all in my mind, and aura's are just a figment of my imagination, then of course I'll change my paradigm.



That would require you to agree to testing.

I can't tell the difference between green and red, but other people claim they can. To believe that there is no difference would be irrational, since they can demonstrate that ability in a few simple tests.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
Rob has a point. There are many people who perceive themselves as being too fat when they're starved nearly to death. Or my previous examples of OCDs and paranoia. Are all those people right just because others share their perceptions?

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


StoutBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
Jo, I'm not classing you as irrational, no offense intended, what I meant to convey was that we ALL formulate our views of how the world works based on both reason and belief, so a person can be indeed rational about some subjects, and irrational about others.

Speaking as someone who's never seen an aura ( and really I'm not fussed about my lack of "ability" ) I do have a hard time digesting anecdotal evidence as being the sole explanation for the existence of auras.

As long as you're open to the possibility that this transfer of energy COULD be strictly psychosomatic, or a manifistation of the placebo effect, then I wouldn't describe you as irrational at all smile

faith enfireBRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA


Posted:
why does it matter what they call it so long as they see it
why does it matter why they see it so long as they see it
a rose by any other name
an aura by any other name

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


ado-pGOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland


Posted:
just read this

Its not about Auras but it sure is interesting

https://www.meaus.com/95-ions-swami-veda-experim.htm

Love is the law.


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
the name doesn't matter if they called it turnip reading the arugements would be the same

but there is an underlying diffrence between the two view points if it is psychosomatic its is a force that works only within the brain and doesn't have an actual precence in the real world.

if its aura reading then it is external to the body and the brain is only perceveing it. it is a real force which is part of our universe not part of our imagination.

we want to know the answer because some of us are curious people we want to know which one it is because these questions are important they only by answering these questions can we gain a better understanding of the nature of the universe.

we are not arugeing over wether to call a rose a rose were argueing over wether in fact the rose is not a rose but a turnip.

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robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
intresting alot of thats isn't suppriseing its been shown in labs more than once that meditation can have a significant effect on your bodys autonomic fuctions. its also not supriseing as the brain controls them. however there are some intresting points in there



first the random number generator part is intreaugeing but i have seen alot of people clameing random number generators are effected by certain phenomina only for a flaw in there experiment to be later demonstrated. i would need to see the exact statistical methods used to determing statistical significance before commenting. however it does warrent further study. but i would note that they only ran the random number experiment once and the effect occurred only three min in and for only seven min it didn't coincide with the start and end of mediation if they did this experiment several times then it would be more conclusive.



second the remote healing system was again intresting however i saw no refrences to controls groups to remove the posibilty of the placebo effect. infact the second person was a student of the guy they were testing and was also an experiance mediator her self. aswell as knowing the nature of the test before they started it and what was expected of her. so that test was not objective in the slightist.



there are a couple of intresting points in there though do you have the a link to the jurnal or paper in which these results were published? i would be intrested to read the oringal artical this is baised on.
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