Forums > Social Discussion > Who believes in auras?

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

 Written by: shen shui


 Written by: jeff


However Barbara is very much to on the extreme end of the spectrum, being driven by religious and financial reasons to disregard proper scientific methodology.




i honestly dont see how you can come to such a conclusion so rapidly, jeff. i am left presuming that you did not research into the site or her past enough to actually see that this has been, and continues to be, at the leading edge of scientific research of the Human Energy Field in the US and Europe. Please do a bit more reading before presenting your opinions in such a strong manner. perhaps you just got carried away, and i can understand that... i find it a lot of fun to have a good rant... but its good to know when you are ranting, too.. haha.


I'm really not ranting, that's what the plants thread is for. What I'm saying is that this woman really isn't a good scientist. It can be confusing to non-scientists to explain how we appraise each others work, so I left it out of my original post, but i'll go into a bit more depth here. When a scientist does some work, they write it up and submit it a science journal, who employ experts who read it over to judge whether it's been done well, or is garbage. Some journals are commonly known to have rubbish judges who let everything through, so serious scientists ignore them. If a scientists work gets published in a serious journal, then we can consider it a serious piece of work unless someone demonstrates it otherwise. It's not a perfect system, but it works. Babara doesn't do that, so the legitimacy of her work is suspect.

 Written by: shen

 Written by: shen


its my personal opinion that everybody is capable of everything, and we are predominantly restricted by our belief that we can or cannot do something. so im going to believe i can do everything, which potentially opens me up to far many more exciting experiences than people who doubt that something can occur, and doubt that they could do it IF it was real.


 Written by: jeff


That's a popular sentiment in modern culture, but it isn't correct,




is that your opinion, jeff, or scientific fact?



Can you fly?

 Written by: shen


 Written by: jeff


Firstly, you cannot ever truely "know" (or know that you know, if you believe ou can "know") what anyone experiences.




if this is so, then how can you know that i dont know what anyone experiences? if you cannot know my mind you cannot know what i know, therefore, there is the potential that one thing can be known by more than one person? have you read about mirror neurons? i presume so, i have always thought you have been well-read and are intelligent and articulate (i have enjoyed observing your posts over time )

im not trying to persuade you of anything, by the way, just putting my thoughts up, i dont think im right all the time, and if i say something that you think is wrong, im fine with that, you know? just thought people might like to hear from someone who doesnt only postulate about these states of being, but rather, experiences and interacts with them on a daily basis...


Mirror neurons let you think that you know what a person knows, and you might actually be thinking the same thing. But you cannot truely know that you know what they know. After all, con artists opperate by tricking you into thinking that they aren't thinking about decieving you. It's a philospohical point that's never been countered, and one that will get bogged down in endless chains of "know that you know"s

 Written by: shen

 Written by: jeff


Something does not have to exist to not believe in it. I do not believe in the invisable pink unicorn, that does not mean the invisable pink unicron must exist.




but it exists as a thought-form in the minds of everyone who read that statement. just because it does not exist in the Physical realm does not mean it does not exist. do your thoughts exist less than your physical body because your mental/emotional bodies vibrate at higher frequencies? hmmm....! i dont think they do. i think, feel, see and experience that they exist Just As Much as our physical body, and interpenetrates it as a unified whole.


That's equivocation or different meanings of "exist", shen. The idea of a god is different from the physical or meta-physical existance of a god.
 Written by: shen


 Written by: jeff


You must also accept the possible that it simply does not work, if you are being open minded.




i do. and perhaps it doesnt. but i know that it IS working for me, or rather, i am working with IT (perhaps there is no separation :P), and at the end of the day i am happy that you have been stimulated by this discussion and that you said what felt right to you, because thats what i've been doing... haha..


I'm not sure you've thought that one out

 Written by: shen


i maintain and honour my experience of the duality of the subjective and objective realms. :P i thought it was obvious that subjectivity and objectivity go hand in hand.

and to cast some scientific validation on this situation, In the 1950's:

a Japanese researcher, Yoshio Nakatani, proved that acupuncture points had a lower electrical resistance compared to non acupuncture points. He later came up with Ryodaraku as a way to measure the electrical properties in the different meridians.

In the 1960's, a French researcher, Pierre de Vernejoul, established the existance of acupuncture meridians. He injected radioactive isotopes into acupuncture points and tracked their movement with a special gamma imaging camera. The isotopes traveled 30 centimeters within 4 minutes. Vernejoul also inected the radioactive isotopes into blood and lymph vessels and these isotopes did not travel anywhere. This reserach seemed to suggest that acupuncture meridians are seperate pathways in the body.


Two points:
The first is that we need to do is carefully consider the "scientific validation" you cite. Have they been confirmed by other researchers, and generally regarded as correctly done and well perform? There is a lot of junk science out there, and it can be very difficult even for a specialist to detect it.

The second is that the physical reality of a "meridan" in the body, if it was real, doesn't really corroborate your point.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

My nunchucks vital statictics

weight: 500g
handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches

 Written by: onewheeldave



 Written by: faithinfire



just observing jeff, cause i have seen it more than a few times now, but it seems like if you don't like a fact, even if it is from a journal, you make up some reason why it isn't a fact. for example, some journals really aren't journals and therefore, the fact is immediately discounted

why not just say you disagree with that statement, you scientists-as you put it-disagree all the time, it fuels experimentation and research





I'm afraid it's just a simple fact that some journals are nowhere near the standard required for the scientific community.



No scientist will take those journals seriously because they are not up to the standard required- the research they report is not up to the high standards required by scientific method...



Those who disagree with scientific standards are free to dismiss them and pursue their beliefs regardless of those standards.









To extend a little bit on what onewheeldave is saying, within my own field there is a big distinction between academic papers/research and non-academic theory. I work in education, and at least when it comes to academia, there is a divide between what is deemed to be "education" and deemed to be "training". It is implied that because of the more rigorous research methods of academia, there is more value in "education" than in "training".



Yet no one who has seen the instinctive knowledge of a good "trainer" as they guide a class through a subject, recognising those who are lagging and extending those who require it, can deny that the knowledge, experience and skills there are real. It is just harder to identify what is really going on.



Having been inside academia, I will say that there is an awful lot of politics that goes into it. Sometimes this prevents knowledge from outside that sphere infiltrating inside (eg. A well researched paper that is not written in the appropriate style or with the right references not making it into publication for a particular journal).



Basically, just because knowledge and experience has come from a source other than academia, doesn't mean it is any less real (although it doesn't mean it is always right). And just because something comes from an academic source, doesn't make it right (and that doesn't mean it is always corrupt or wrong, either).



All you can do is rely on your own critical faculties to analyse the research and thought behind what is being presented.



 Written by: robnunchucks



if people realy are phycic why do we not see any of them makeing use of it



why arn't all profesinal poker players phycic



why do we never see the headline phycic wins lottery



why do we never see the headline phycics averts terrorist attack



why arn't the worlds greatist and most respected doctors spirtiual healers



why dont the police simply use a phycic to ask the murder victim who killed them



and why do phycics only ever use there powers to perform feats that can be replicated by magicains i dont know about you lot but that sets off alot of alarm bells for me



and finaly a project that demonstrated very clearly why we must be very very carfull about the types of scientific recearch we accept as good science



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Alpha
br>






Errrrmmmm, I suspect a lot of what you are asking has been answered by people far more qualified to answer than I. But my take on it is this:



- If a person has a power and is going to use it dishonestly (eg. winning lotteries or poker) they are not going to shout it from the rooftops and risk never being able to make money again.

- If a person has a power and has a code of ethics that stop them from using that power dishonestly, well... do I need to complete that sentence?

- We cannot determine if physic powers are real, let alone how they work. And I am yet to meet someone who claims to such reliable psychic powers that they believe they are 100% correct all the time. So why would a detective choose to use a method of investigation that is not wholly reliable and therefore is unlikely to stand up in court, even if there was a chance of getting the right answer?

- Just because a phenomenom can be duplicated using certain means, does not mean it was created using those means. (Although it does suggest that the phenomenom bears further investigation)

- Just because people who believe they have psychic powers can be fooled, does not make them wrong.



I'm not really on any side in this discussion. I smack bang on the fence (good ol' fence sitter me ). My main purpose in posting is to say that neither side has a monopoly on the certainty of their arguments.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

whatever you say, jeff.



it appears that whatever i say to you, you disagree with and have an argument for, so i am not going to reply to your reply.



i am not interested in attempting to show you enough information that you would consider adequate for you to allow something to be considered "real" in Your reality... who knows how long that would take? (rhetorical)



at the end of the day, i actually experience states of being that, it appears, from your words, you do not. you telling me something that i am experiencing is not Real because it does not fit into your understanding of the world is irrationally juvenille.



it appears that science is very unsure of the reality of the non-physical realms, concerning itself with the basest, densest aspect of our particular perception of the energetic spectrum. also, science is just ANOTHER way of looking at the world (and, predominantly, the physical world). the understanding of the nonphysical realms cannot be understood using the tools of the physical realm. science is not more right than other views just because it says it is.



i feel that someone who has not actually delved into this matter by practising some form of spritual practice, be it meditation, yoga, tai ji, prayer, or whatever, should perhaps attempt to understand it experientially before attempting to voice their opinion using purely theoretical arguments created out of a lack of understanding of the topic. because this is something you actually dont understand, is it, jeff? when the crunch comes down, you're arguing against this because it hasnt been proven?



do your own research (ie, talk with many people who have experienced states that you are attempting to invalidate, delve into the mysteries of meditation sufficiently that you experience altered states of consciousness, practice empathy, etc.... ), before attempting to advocate the degree to which something is "real" or not. it'd be like me trying to tell you that you're wrong about something that you know much more about than me.



anyway, what im saying is this: the aura (and that which it infers) is experienced by many people (its laughable, really, because everyone experiences it to a greater or lesser degree, whether they are consciously aware of it or not), and just because science has not amassed enough evidence for it to concede that it is real yet, it is Still real. but hey, science has only been around for a few hundred years. its still young, and is still learning.



learning that cultures such as the Chinese have been practicing energy-work for more than ten times as long as what modern science has been around, and have classical literature (ie more than 2000 years old) telling of the greater and lesser energy movements of our realm, that cultures such as the aboriginals of australia or the ascetics of tibet have spent thousands of years experiencing consciousness in the non-physical realms...



slowly science is catching up. and that makes me happy because then more people will understand ever truer understandings of reality. because there is always more to understand... we must ever discard our opinions for better ones.



im willing do discard Everything that i presently know to be true, through realising greater understanding. im willing to throw Everything away. i could die tomorrow, after all. holding on (even to opinions) will eventually lead to suffering when the time comes to let it go....



or do you disagree?



rant.

those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Herbs are just unpurified drugs, faith. Either they work or they don't (and possibly hurt). We can test them happily so people can know if they are wasting their money or not. The other thing I think you're refering to are placebos.

This is getting now.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

My nunchucks vital statictics

weight: 500g
handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches

A cynic might say it's because psychics are fundamentally doing the same as magicians/conjurers

On the other hand, it could just be that any genuine psychic feats, by their nature of being unusual, are naturally going to be copied by magicians cos they perform stuff that's unusual and has audience appeal.

There are examples of stunts performed by magicians that doesn't detract from the fact that they are genuine skills.

For example, Houdinis speciality of escapism and mastery of locks- common magical tricks, some genuine and some faked.

But also genuine skills used in reality by criminals, lock-pickers, safe-crackers etc.

Just cos conjurers incorporate it into an act, doesn't necessarily mean it's not real.

The supporter of psychic skills would of course claim that, when a psychic reads a mind- they're actually getting info from the mind by psychic means, whereas, when a conjurer performs mind-reading, they're simply using one of many well established tricks that fake it.

Though I would agree with you that the fact that psychic skills can be so well simulated, is justified cause for seriously investigating claims that they are real.

 Written by: robnunchucks


if people realy are phycic why do we not see any of them makeing use of it

why arn't all profesinal poker players phycic

why do we never see the headline phycic wins lottery

why do we never see the headline phycics averts terrorist attack

why arn't the worlds greatist and most respected doctors spirtiual healers

why dont the police simply use a phycic to ask the murder victim who killed them

and why do phycics only ever use there powers to perform feats that can be replicated by magicains i dont know about you lot but that sets off alot of alarm bells for me





It's 'psychic', not 'phycic'

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.