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The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:Hi all

I've been studying the use of complementary therapies in palliative care for a research project at Uni. I've been looking at how these often clinically unproven therapies are being integrated into conventional medical care for the dying, the reasons for it and the benefits of it e.t.c.

One of the things I've been up to is watching a therapist give reiki treatments to patients. I started talking to the therapist afterwards about the 'energy body' and if she can see it. She says she just feels the energy, but cannot see it.

I personally would like to believe that we each have an aura or 'energy body', but at the same time I don't like buying into things without a healthy dose of scepticism also. So I was wondering what you guys all think...

If anyone also wants to argue for or against auras, or give their personal experiences with 'energy', I'm interested in whatever you guys have to say.

Cheers.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


I think that's a sexist oversimplification. Women can very quickly form hierarchy's, and ignore the opinions of others. Conversely most of the men I know, including myself, will patiently listen to everyone.




what a huge steaming pile of sexist filth.


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"


Mascot
Mascot

enthusiast

Member Since: 20th May 2002
Total posts: 301
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


 Written by: Rouge Dragon


 Written by: robnunchucks


Rob, yes I noticed the male/female ratio, but all I can infer from it is that the male believers and female skeptics don't want to come out and play.

ether that or females are more inclinded to beleave and males are more inclinded to be sceptical ether way its an intresting phenominon smile



It could possibly be the "mother" instinct and female connection with the world (look at the many animistic religions). Or the nature of men vs women in the nature they communicate; women talk and discuss with everyone as equals and heard, but men are more blunt with a heirachy established in their speech.


I think that's a sexist oversimplification. Women can very quickly form hierarchys, and ignore the opinions of others. Conversely most of the men I know, including myself, will patiently listen to everyone.




This conversation has taken a rather nasty turn. To be fair to Jeff he was not saying that women are more likely to form hierarchies or that men are better at listening. He was just saying that these qualities are present in both genders in response to Rouge's post. It seems unfair to accuse him of sexism.

I think Rouge's example of "Junk DNA" as something science cannot currently explain is perfectly valid and a good example. Rouge is right to point out that science cannot explain everything. Advocates of a scientific approach must learn to live with the knowlege that there may be things they will never know.

Isaac Newton said that the more he discovered the more he realised he didn't know. He felt like a boy skimming stones on the edges of a vast undiscovered ocean.


Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes


robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:I deliberately provided a simple example as I wanted to provide an example that everyone could understand, not just the science buffs. I am sorry if you feel that it was "poor" simply because it provided science in laymans terms.

dna that was once used? so youre saying that because it is no longer used it can no longer be relevant at all? step outside your modern science box.




did anyone bother to read my post frown ok let me try again cos i think several people have got the wrong end of the stick.



firstly science can't explain everything this is fine i said that several times.



my point about junk DNA and zipfs laws was simply that it is a bad example of sicence not understanding everything because it is a fact that was well understood by science.



i then suggested that what happens inside a black hole would have been a better example because that is not currently understood by science.



i have no problem with science been explained in layterms im all for it its the best way to spread understanding and reason to people that may be unwilling to go into the subject in greater deepths.



as for the bit about it not been relivient because its no longer used you've totaly missunderstood what i was saying so i'll try again useing slightly more lay terms wink



the point is zipf's law occures in systems that have some kind of informational content or underlying order. music language etc.



so if it is not random gibberish it tends to display zipf's law.



junk DNA is DNA that was once back in our evolutionary past, active DNA. meening it was once used as part of the code to create a liveing thing.



active DNA can't be random jibberish as it is used to create a liveing creature. at some point that DNA was switched off and stoped been used by the evolutianry proccess.



but while the DNA is not been used now it was at some point and so encoded information. as a result we would expect it to exibit zipf's law and it does.



ergo there is nothing to explain here we find exacly what we expect we would that Junk DNA follows Zipfs law.



i would hope you now understand what i was saying if you still dont understand all or part of it i'ed be happy to go over it in more detail or perhaps useing analogys if that would be usefull smile

EDITED_BY: robnunchucks (1166618762)


My nunchucks vital statictics biggrin

weight: 500g
handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches


Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:More things about junk DNA if that matters at all:



- some of it has come to be created through duplication and mutation, events that happen. They may not make sense at first look, but that's how evolution works. Most changes are either deadly or don't make a difference in the end, but since evolution is not happening with a purpose in mind, you get them.



- While it's in a way a waste of energy for a cell to have to make new copies of all the unused DNA when it divides, it's got its advantages, too. Like, when you smoke, and that causes a mutation in your DNA. If that's in an unused bit, it won't do harm.



Oh, and as a representative of the female skeptic minority: Stop being silly with the girls/boys stuff, or I'll start a support group hug


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:Oh, and as a representative of the female skeptic minority: Stop being silly with the girls/boys stuff, or I'll start a support group

hehe very true glad to have a girl with the skeptics our side was distinctly short of evil scientist overlady's biggrin


My nunchucks vital statictics biggrin

weight: 500g
handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches


Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Cheers, Rob. I was not quite sure if overlady really is the female equivalent of an overlord, but it sounds a good enough title for me smile

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:just had a quick look i think overlady is actualy the equivelent of overload acording to wikapedia anyway smile

My nunchucks vital statictics biggrin

weight: 500g
handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches


The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:Hi Guys and Gals

Wow, I never expected this topic to go on for quite this long. Thanks to everyone for sharing their ideas, beliefs, musings and scientific knowledge.

I'm taking part in a university experiment tomorrow about auras! I'm not sure exactly what the hypothesis or methodology is yet, but I'll find out what it's all about and let you know. At the moment I just have to fill out a NEO-FFI test questionaire and tomorrow I have to go and fill in another questionnaire and get a 'scan' of my aura (again, not sure what techniques or technology is being used but if I can find out I'll let you know). Apparently I'll get a 'photo' of my aura scan to take home with me.

I'm really not sure what it's all about, but I'll try and find out and post links when/if the results are published.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


87wt2gxq7
87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham
Member Since: 12th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1502
Posted:woo! lookin forward to hearing more, tea fairy!


Skatto
Skatto

Walking on whims...
Location: Eastbourne, UK
Member Since: 12th Jan 2007
Total posts: 687
Posted:Whilst I dont believe people having energy aura's, I do believe some people have a sort of "presence."

I can tend to just look at a complete stranger, and just know thinks about their personality and how they are. And eight times out of ten I'm right... you could call it an aura, you could just call it being a good judge of character, or it could just be the character that the individual person is projecting through their clothing, attitude and facial expression.

Some individuals seem to have a commanding and powerful aura/presence about them; maybe its the way they look, the way they stand, the way they carry themselves or something completely different. Other times you can just look at someone and tell if they are a jester or a wacky comedian, or if someone is a serious worker and an intelligent thinker. Just by first impressions alone.


Auras in a spiritual sense though, no I dont believe in. smile Would be cool though.


Skatto

"Fly like a mouse,
Run like a cushion,
Be the small bookcase."

For goodness sake, don't aggravate the otters!!!


The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:Well, I've just had my aura scanned and got the picture back. My poor aura looks a bit ill! They think there may have been a program error in the analysis because I have a huge blue jet coming out of my right shoulder and they're not sure why!

The technique is called Gas Discharge Visualisation, they just scan your finger tips a couple of times and use the data to map out the rest of the body. It's apparently a new improved form of Kirlian photography, but I still don't have exact details (I do plan to find out more though).

The experiment is to do with if the aura scan images can show signs of the body being under stress, physically or emotionally (mine looks very stressed!). I'll let you know what the results are if anyhting significant comes up.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:I'd be stressed, too, if there was a jet coming out of my shoulder!!! eek

(sorry, couldn't be resisted, not meant as a p!sstake hug)


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: The Tea Fairy

...they just scan your finger tips a couple of times and use the data to map out the rest of the body.


Am I reading that right? Because it certainly seems a little wacky. umm


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:That's ok Birgit, I could have phrased it better! hug

Yeah, it was a little 'whacky'! There was this machine hooked up to a computer with some kind of lens on it, I had to press each fingertip against the glass and have it 'scanned', then again with some kind of filter placed on the lens. The picture had all the fingerprint scans on it, and each one was split into sections which apparently relate to certain organs and bits of the body. They use these to 'map out' a colour image around the body.

I wasn't really given much of an explanation as to what all the colours and shapes mean, just that the more symmetrical the pattern, the healthier the body is. But then I wasn't going for a 'reading', it was just an experiment.

Again, I'll post more about the study when I know more. Ideally I'd like to see a proper report, with hypothesis, methodology etc.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: The Tea Fairy

Yeah, it was a little 'whacky'! There was this machine hooked up to a computer with some kind of lens on it, I had to press each fingertip against the glass and have it 'scanned', then again with some kind of filter placed on the lens. The picture had all the fingerprint scans on it, and each one was split into sections which apparently relate to certain organs and bits of the body. They use these to 'map out' a colour image around the body.



Sounds like some fringe varient of reflexology, rather than aura reading. I wouldn't hold out much hope for it being a valid experiment, that stuff's total BS.



EDIT: Looked into it. It's basically a con/pseudoscience from a Russian fruitcake. Here's a link to their website.



"our Consciousness may be holographically encoded in the electro-photonic interference pattern of Light that surrounds every cell of our body" ubblol



Seems they've got quite a good little cottage industry going in "healings" and some of the most hidious shirts I've ever seen, which supposedly enhance your "electro-photonic interference patter" rolleyes


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:Hey Jeff, I'm not implying that the technique works but the experiment is serious! It might even give us some scientific proof that the technique is indeed BS, then we can all stop arguing. The guy who is conducting the research is

Paul Dobson BSc PhD AFBPsS C.Psychol
Senior Lecturer in Organisational Behaviour

He worked hard to get all those letters after his name, I don't think he'd waste his time if he didn't think it was significant, even if it does just prove the technique is false. I'm not mocking the science until I've seen the full report, maybe you should wait to see the methodology and analysis before you proclaim it as invalid? smile


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: The Tea Fairy



Hey Jeff, I'm not implying that the technique works but the experiment is serious! It might even give us some scientific proof that the technique is indeed BS, then we can all stop arguing. The guy who is conducting the research is



Paul Dobson BSc PhD AFBPsS C.Psychol

Senior Lecturer in Organisational Behaviour



He worked hard to get all those letters after his name, I don't think he'd waste his time if he didn't think it was significant, even if it does just prove the technique is false. I'm not mocking the science until I've seen the full report, maybe you should wait to see the methodology and analysis before you proclaim it as invalid? smile



Check it out, seriously, it's a con.



It's not certain yet if they are seriously appraising the technique, but it's quite doubtful given the rather dubious nature of the subject matter.



It is possible Dr. Dobson's been taken in. All the letters in the world after your name don't change the fact that humans are capable of being tricked.



The other possibility is that he is looking to deliver a smack-down to these con artists, but I wouldn't hold out much hope.



EDIT: Looked up some info on Paul Dobson. He's a psychologist with some rather strange publications-



Dobson Paul and O'Keffe Elena. Investigations into Stress and it's Management using the Gas Discharge Visualisation Technique. International J of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. June 2000.



Looks like he's been taken in. No serious scientist would publish in the IJACM, it's a sham journal. frown



EDIT:The plot thickens...

Link

Apparently in 2005 he has concluded the GDV can't be used to diagnose illness, but holds out hope for detecting stress.



It's looking slightly better for a reasonable display from the good doctor. smile

EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1169656515)


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:OMG the shirts really are awful! ubblol

Yeah he may have been tricked, equally he could be trying to de-bunk the whole thing, I really don't know enough about the study to say what it's all about. I've met the guy and he doesn't seem to be just buying into it all blindly, he's just interested (but again, I don't know enough about him to be able to judge). I would still be interested to find out what the hypothesis is, methodology etc and what literature or previous research the study is based on. I will post links when it's all finished, then as far as this study is concerned we'll know for sure.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Just a suggestion, but I think this GSV business reminds me of something...




Non-Https Image Link

Non-Https Image Link

Non-Https Image Link




Entertaining my crazy hypothesis for a moment, since stress increases perspiration, that would give a clear difference if the GSV device were a glorified plasma ball. This, if true, would explain the results obtained by Dr. Dobson. (Curiously, I note that the Doctor's more recent publications refuting the possibility of being able to detect illness haven't been publicised on the GSV websites...)



EDIT: Shirt image, for mockage purposes.


Non-Https Image Link

EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1169662101)


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


Domino
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 757
Posted:Anyone here played Episode 2 of Sam & Max 2? I can't help think of Prismatology when I see those shirts.

Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.


shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted:hypothetically...

.. say 1% of the population were blind, and 99% could see. the blind people would surely take the word of the 99% that THEY could see trees and birds and houses and cars and things, right..?

but what if 1% of the world could see, and 99% couldnt? now, objectively, you and i both know that there are still things to be seen, even though the majority of ppl cant see them..

and that doesnt mean that its not real, or not there.

but surely the 99% who could not see the trees etc would question the sight of the 1% who cuold see.

(yeah, i know, an analogy)

i think that because, throughout the ages, various peoples of various locations have had similar experiences in relation to the non-physical world (where you are Confined to 5 senses) (i am sorry, i am unable to provide any references for any of the knowledge that i have of this matter. if you are so interested in the proof of these things i am sure you wouldnt mind spending time conducting your own research), there is a lot of validity to things like the aura and energetic medicine (ie acupuncture, homeopathy), and that just because a larger percetage dont spend their time developing their awareness of their non-physical environment and actually experiencing these states of being (which Everybody is capable of doing - coz, just as once i was unable to see peoples aura's or work with their energy, i was once unable to walk (just like you). and i learnt how to walk (just like you). Over time, i have also learnt how to feel and see my own energy (which almost somehow looks like that great tshirt), other peoples energy, and be able to direct it in certain ways for healing, theraupetic means. just because a larger percentage dont have access to these other states of being (call them frequencies of vibration, if you like.. (ie, everything is energy vibrating at a certain frequency...)) does not mean they are not there amd are unable to be experienced.

these are real, valid states of being for me, just as what you experience in your every day life is to you. just because not many people perceive these states does not mean they are not real.

i can understand people wanting to have proof, and that is fine. i find it interesting that all people have a different amount of proof that they need for them to believe something.

i wonder why people question other peoples experiences so much when they could perform their own experiment and delve into their non-physical body's themselves and come up with their own conclusions.

smile

but then, at the end of the day, you always find what you look for.

peace.


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.


Skatto
Skatto

Walking on whims...
Location: Eastbourne, UK
Member Since: 12th Jan 2007
Total posts: 687
Posted:Oh wow that shirt.. just... wow. umm
meditate


Skatto

"Fly like a mouse,
Run like a cushion,
Be the small bookcase."

For goodness sake, don't aggravate the otters!!!


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: shen shui

just because a larger percentage dont have access to these other states of being (call them frequencies of vibration, if you like.. (ie, everything is energy vibrating at a certain frequency...)) does not mean they are not there amd are unable to be experienced.


This is a commonly stated postition shen, it's been answered earlier, but I'd like to address it again now the situation is less hostile.

Firsly, I'd like to make an admission. I am red/green colour blind. A fairly obvious corrolary of that is that I percieve the world differently for most people. In essence you already have a sense that I lack, being able to visually differentiate between red and green. If I ever felt any real doubt that the red/green sense existed then it would be a simple matter to construct a simple experiment to test the ability.

For example: Take a group of alledged red/green seers and expose them independantly to a selection of coloured objects selected by a red/green seer to be diffinitively red/green. If the ability was real, they should all concur. If they fell about in disagreement, became defensive and aggressive about being "doubted" and generally could not adequately perform the test, then perhaps I would have good reason to doubt the ability. Numbers and proportions would have nothing to do with it.

Like myself, there will be people have a slightly different manner of perception, or differ in the way their brain makes sense of it. A good potential explaination of why some people believe they can see emotions visually is a varient of synaesthesia. Other may simply be flat out dishonest, and others simply honestly deluded. These explainations, coupled with the confrimation-bias (emphasise hits, ignore misses) inherant in human memory, give a powerful reason to consider any claim of super- or preternatural perception sceptically. If we do not then we risk becoming fodder for frauds, such as Sylvia Browne (to use an example of a someone claiming powers for money).

There is no reason why any claimed supernatural ability could not in theory be test for validity. Despite this no-one has been able to demonstrate any powers in a rigourusly scientific test. This doesn't prove that they aren't there (but then, the absence of Santa's workshop on GoogleEarth doesn't disprove Santa's existance), but it at least suggests that we should not believe a person claiming powers until they are able to give at least a reasonable standard of evidence that they can do the things they claim they can do.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:hug for Shen and Jeff; thanks for posting such articulate, interesting and non-aggressive replies! Was a pleasure to read both your views.

Yeah, I find Sylvia Browne really annoying! I remember reading a few chapters of one of her books when I was about 12 or something, even then I was raising my eyebrows about her views of 'heaven'... I can't remember exactly what they were, but it was basically that heaven is exactly like earth except the people are nicer, so you'll still have your house, car, pets etc waiting for you. umm

The idea of heaven being a very materialistic place just didn't sit with me, so i've never held Sylvia in high regard!


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted:..something that i've noticed is that people tend to find what they are looking for. ie, if you think that 2,3,5 is symbolic and powerful then your subconscious will look for instances of this sequence appearing in your every-day life, and you will consciously notice it. as in, quantum chaos or particle theory or whatever its called where the viewer observing the experiment cant help but influence it.



(and this could lead me on to why acupuncture is so difficult to double-blind randomize control trial for validities sake - every variable is important, not just the needles penetrating the skin at certain locations. but thats another story)



and i know that this influences my ability to see aura's and manipulate energy, and i am fine with that (manipulate, unfortunately, has negative connotations).



but what i am getting at, is that people who do not believe until they have overwhelming evidence sometimes will not find the evidence they are looking for, because they start off by doubting.



another way of saying it is, have an open mind. to me, the fact that many people experience these states, and are able to objectively describe these states, is a very strong indicator of their validity. (check the work of barbara brennan if you are really very keen on western explanations, because this lovely lady has been on the cutting edge of the western frontiers push into research of the HEF (or human energetic field) for the past 20 years thats right, they have been doing research for 20 years already. so much so that there is an internationally recognized course in energetic healing working from three separate countries. check this out)



disclaimer: i am not saying that anyone who has posted on this thread is close minded, or distrustful, or anything. i hope i left my statements broad, generalized and vague enough to leave much room for movement for all people to not feel threatened by my statements. smile



its my personal opinion that everybody is capable of everything, and we are predominantly restricted by our belief that we can or cannot do something. so im going to believe i can do everything, which potentially opens me up to far many more exciting experiences than people who doubt that something can occur, and doubt that they could do it IF it was real.



its like the old adage about the athiest: how can you have a belief that something is not? to disbelieve in something, it must first be in existence. if its not in existence, the thought would never come to mind to doubt its validity.



also, something does not have to fit into the predominant western science thought-paradigm for it to work, or be valid. i guess its a bit unfortunate that so many people have been unconsciously swayed by their society into needing so much tangible, physical evidence before believing something. but then, thats not my loss, and i dont mind too much. smile all im saying here is that there ARE other ways of understanding these things, and the best way that i can think of is this: if you really are that keen on seeing the validitiy of these states of being, then you should conduct your own research, upon yourself...



and to whoever said that they tried for years but couldnt get anything, perhaps you were being shown the wrong methods. perhaps you were shown the right methods but didnt do them right. perhaps you DID do them right, but didnt do them for long enough.



there is never a 100% absolute hard-n-fast explanation for Anything. EVERYTHING is subjective and relative. (even this statement)



peace.


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.


Chronofracture333
Chronofracture333

Hobo Gaylord
Location: I am worldwide and lush
Member Since: 15th Jun 2005
Total posts: 329
Posted:Hmm... When I was studying prosthetics & orthotics (false legs and back braces) we spent a lot of time investigating walking patterns. Now, while we did a lot of testing on pressure plates and video we were always taught to watch a patient when they weren't being tested as they would be walking un-selfconciously and often totally differently. It made the testing very difficult and I often found I'd ignore the video and computer, and got better results (ie. a false leg that worked) from just watching the patient in the waiting room.

With regards to this thread I'm just not sure I could trust the results from a scientific setting, They mess with peoples heads too much for useful results.

ubbrollsmile


*no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no*

"Oooh, what a shiny new move!"


Psyri
Psyri

artisan
Location: Berkshire, UK
Member Since: 2nd Apr 2003
Total posts: 1576
Posted:I know that kirlian photography is the only way atm to show auras. They even tried this on plants (they cut a branch off and it took a while for the plant to realise it had lost its limb)....

I would just like to say after this point.... plants have feelings too. I don't want to get into another meat/veggie debate.....

I think everything has auric tendencies depending on what they do.



Wooktastic
Wooktastic

the kicker of elves
Location: Dublin
Member Since: 10th Jan 2007
Total posts: 371
Posted:From my understanding the electricity passing through the nervous system generates a weak electrical field surrounding the body. This has always been what I believed auras to be.

Man is no more than a conduit for excrement to pass through.- daVinci

Jointly owned by BurdA and Tinypixie

Wielder of the voice of Patrick Stewart


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Hi Shen, you are making a whole boatload of different points in you post. This post will be quite wordy, but will encapsulate the mainstream scientific position on such matters.

 Written by: shen shui


..something that i've noticed is that people tend to find what they are looking for. ie, if you think that 2,3,5 is symbolic and powerful then your subconscious will look for instances of this sequence appearing in your every-day life, and you will consciously notice it.


This phenomenon is a varient of confirmation-bias. You correctly comment that it is simply an effect of looking out for it. Nothing actually changes in the environment, we simply pay more attention to different bits of it.

 Written by: shen shui

as in, quantum chaos or particle theory or whatever its called where the viewer observing the experiment cant help but influence it.


I'm afraid I'm going to have to correct you on this one. What you are refering to is a common misrepresentation of the Aharonov-Bohn effect. The correctly stated effect is essentially that any physical phenomenon which would allow the exeriment to be obervable (such as a reflecting photon) would change it. It makes no more difference to the experiment if the reflected photon is detected by a computer system, a human, or simply left alone, the experiment is still changed. Sadly, many in the new age community have run away with the idea and misrepresented it to suggest that simply looking at something changes it.

 Written by: shen shui

but what i am getting at, is that people who do not believe until they have overwhelming evidence sometimes will not find the evidence they are looking for, because they start off by doubting.

another way of saying it is, have an open mind.


The strictly scientific position to any unsubstantiated claim is to regard it as unsubstantiated, not as false (although in practical terms it often useful to regard a completely unsubstantiated claim false as a corrolary). What a scientist does is collect evidence in such a way that it would convince a reasonable person. If an objective claim is being made, it will in theory be possible to construct a valid test for it, making adjustments for any claim interferences (cameras, magnets etc.). A well designed experiment will give result which are completely idependant of the designers beliefs or opinions.

 Written by: shen shui

to me, the fact that many people experience these states, and are able to objectively describe these states, is a very strong indicator of their validity.


There are a number of technical problems here. Firstly, you cannot ever truely "know" (or know that you know, if you believe ou can "know") what anyone experiences. Secondly, one cannot "objectively" describe such a state, they can only subjectively describe it.

 Written by: shen shui

(check the work of barbara brennan if you are really very keen on western explanations, because this lovely lady has been on the cutting edge of the western frontiers push into research of the HEF (or human energetic field) for the past 20 years thats right, they have been doing research for 20 years already. so much so that there is an internationally recognized course in energetic healing working from three separate countries. check this out)


There really isn't enough time to go into the fine details of this matter, so I will cover it briefly. A vital aspect of being a scientist is to design your experiments carefully, and to co-operate with the rest of the scientific community, to avoid becoming detached from reality and producing valid work. Sometimes a scientist, for personal, religious, economic or other reasons, basically stops acting in a scientific fashion. For instance, the "scientific evidence" the cigarette companies came up with against a link to cancer. When someone stops acting in a scientific fashion, the work which they produce is simply junk. It can be a complex and controversial judgement call when exactly one has to regard a scientists work as junk, as it is very much a spectrum. However Barbara is very much to on the extreme end of the spectrum, being driven by religious and financial reasons to disregard proper scientific methodology.

 Written by: shen shui


its my personal opinion that everybody is capable of everything, and we are predominantly restricted by our belief that we can or cannot do something. so im going to believe i can do everything, which potentially opens me up to far many more exciting experiences than people who doubt that something can occur, and doubt that they could do it IF it was real.


That's a popular sentiment in modern culture, but it isn't correct, and I fell it's unhealthy. If I was totally bad ass and a repentant vampire, I would demonstrate the point by asking you if you could fly, then throwing you out the window of a tall building, but I've watched too much American t.v lately...

 Written by: shen shui


its like the old adage about the athiest: how can you have a belief that something is not?

This is really a seperate point from the others, but I'll address it anyway. The correct definition of "Atheism" (taking the word to it's latin roots, and modern meaning by atheist groups) is generally not the belief in the absence of god/s (mankind has invented thousands over the aeons), it is the absence of belief any god/s. Thus, many would argue that all humans are born atheists.

 Written by: shen shui

to disbelieve in something, it must first be in existenceif its not in existence, the thought would never come to mind to doubt its validity.

Something does not have to exist to not believe in it. I do not believe in the invisable pink unicorn, that does not mean the invisable pink unicron must exist.

 Written by: shens shui


also, something does not have to fit into the predominant western science thought-paradigm for it to work, or be valid. i guess its a bit unfortunate that so many people have been unconsciously swayed by their society into needing so much tangible, physical evidence before believing something. but then, thats not my loss, and i dont mind too much. smile all im saying here is that there ARE other ways of understanding these things, and the best way that i can think of is this: if you really are that keen on seeing the validitiy of these states of being, then you should conduct your own research, upon yourself...


Does not conducting one own research upon oneself not carry the inescapable possibility, if not the great likelyhood, of being absolutely, completely wrong? The scientific method (practiced by peoples of all cultures, races and creeds, truely a great human universal) has demonstrated itself to be the most highly effect method humans have for elucidating details of the world. If there is a better method, it has has never yet been proposed.

 Written by: shen shui


and to whoever said that they tried for years but couldnt get anything, perhaps you were being shown the wrong methods. perhaps you were shown the right methods but didnt do them right. perhaps you DID do them right, but didnt do them for long enough.


You must also accept the possible that it simply does not work, if you are being open minded.

 Written by: shen shui

there is never a 100% absolute hard-n-fast explanation for Anything. EVERYTHING is subjective and relative. (even this statement)


If everything being subjective is subjective then logically it is possible for the existance of objectivity.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted:wow.

cool reply, jeff. thanx for the time and effort you put in to verify and negate what i said... im humbled that you cared so much to present this for me... smile

your first three points: i concur.

 Written by: jeff


However Barbara is very much to on the extreme end of the spectrum, being driven by religious and financial reasons to disregard proper scientific methodology.




i honestly dont see how you can come to such a conclusion so rapidly, jeff. i am left presuming that you did not research into the site or her past enough to actually see that this has been, and continues to be, at the leading edge of scientific research of the Human Energy Field in the US and Europe. Please do a bit more reading before presenting your opinions in such a strong manner. smile perhaps you just got carried away, and i can understand that... i find it a lot of fun to have a good rant... smile but its good to know when you are ranting, too.. haha.

 Written by: jeff


 Written by: shen


its my personal opinion that everybody is capable of everything, and we are predominantly restricted by our belief that we can or cannot do something. so im going to believe i can do everything, which potentially opens me up to far many more exciting experiences than people who doubt that something can occur, and doubt that they could do it IF it was real.



That's a popular sentiment in modern culture, but it isn't correct,




is that your opinion, jeff, or scientific fact? smile

 Written by: jeff


Firstly, you cannot ever truely "know" (or know that you know, if you believe ou can "know") what anyone experiences.




if this is so, then how can you know that i dont know what anyone experiences? if you cannot know my mind you cannot know what i know, therefore, there is the potential that one thing can be known by more than one person? have you read about mirror neurons? i presume so, i have always thought you have been well-read and are intelligent and articulate (i have enjoyed observing your posts over time smile )

im not trying to persuade you of anything, by the way, just putting my thoughts up, i dont think im right all the time, and if i say something that you think is wrong, im fine with that, you know? just thought people might like to hear from someone who doesnt only postulate about these states of being, but rather, experiences and interacts with them on a daily basis... smile

 Written by: jeff


Something does not have to exist to not believe in it. I do not believe in the invisable pink unicorn, that does not mean the invisable pink unicron must exist.




but it exists as a thought-form in the minds of everyone who read that statement. just because it does not exist in the Physical realm does not mean it does not exist. do your thoughts exist less than your physical body because your mental/emotional bodies vibrate at higher frequencies? hmmm....! i dont think they do. i think, feel, see and experience that they exist Just As Much as our physical body, and interpenetrates it as a unified whole.


 Written by: jeff


You must also accept the possible that it simply does not work, if you are being open minded.




i do. and perhaps it doesnt. but i know that it IS working for me, or rather, i am working with IT (perhaps there is no separation :P), and at the end of the day i am happy that you have been stimulated by this discussion and that you said what felt right to you, because thats what i've been doing... haha..

sorry, bloody hippies... you know.

 Written by: jeff


If everything being subjective is subjective then logically it is possible for the existance of objectivity.




i maintain and honour my experience of the duality of the subjective and objective realms. :P i thought it was obvious that subjectivity and objectivity go hand in hand.

and to cast some scientific validation on this situation, In the 1950's:

a Japanese researcher, Yoshio Nakatani, proved that acupuncture points had a lower electrical resistance compared to non acupuncture points. He later came up with Ryodaraku as a way to measure the electrical properties in the different meridians.

In the 1960's, a French researcher, Pierre de Vernejoul, established the existance of acupuncture meridians. He injected radioactive isotopes into acupuncture points and tracked their movement with a special gamma imaging camera. The isotopes traveled 30 centimeters within 4 minutes. Vernejoul also inected the radioactive isotopes into blood and lymph vessels and these isotopes did not travel anywhere. This reserach seemed to suggest that acupuncture meridians are seperate pathways in the body.

smile


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.


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