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The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:Hi all

I've been studying the use of complementary therapies in palliative care for a research project at Uni. I've been looking at how these often clinically unproven therapies are being integrated into conventional medical care for the dying, the reasons for it and the benefits of it e.t.c.

One of the things I've been up to is watching a therapist give reiki treatments to patients. I started talking to the therapist afterwards about the 'energy body' and if she can see it. She says she just feels the energy, but cannot see it.

I personally would like to believe that we each have an aura or 'energy body', but at the same time I don't like buying into things without a healthy dose of scepticism also. So I was wondering what you guys all think...

If anyone also wants to argue for or against auras, or give their personal experiences with 'energy', I'm interested in whatever you guys have to say.

Cheers.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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VampyricAcid
VampyricAcid

veteran
Location: My House
Member Since: 27th Jun 2005
Total posts: 1286
Posted:i know im probabily gonna get lots of people who dont believe me, and im not claiming to be telepathic, but i am telempathic basically when i get close to people (as in physically not emotionally) i can...feel their emotions, and in some cases see them.

For example, if someone is sad (i find sadness the easiest to pick up) and i get close enough its like a cloud around them, a thick transparent/translucent cloud, and i feel sad too (hence me being the one who always tries to pick people up).

it works best if im in their vicinity for maybe 5 minutes and in some cases with really close friends, i can tell how they are feeling over the phone or even the internet.

anyone else have anything similar???


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Are You Sniffing My Mitten?

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Eveish
Eveish

*Tickles pretty strangers*
Location: Australia
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 610
Posted:I have never really doubted auras, I think they exist.

What if I should fall right through the centre of the Earth and come out the other side where people walk upside-down?!

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Azadondo
Azadondo

journeyman
Location: Los Angeles
Member Since: 22nd Apr 2005
Total posts: 59
Posted:I can not see auras now, nor have ever been able to see them-- but several people that I have met through out my life have claimed to be able to see auras and everyone one of them, without fail, has said that they have seen the same color when look at mine. I also believe that they exist because of feelings I get from people sometimes. I don't pick up on mood or emotions or how they are feeling, but on their intentions, specifically if they have bad intentions. I feel it as a cold rush up my spine, as though I have been touch by Death himself. This happens with people I have known for years to people I haven't even seen (and I don't just mean people that I haven't seen before, but with people I have not yet even looked at-- someone can walk behind me and I will feel it and turn around to see who it is). This often happens in large crowds. So yes I believe aswell.

Performing marriages, funerals, baptisisms, last rites and absolving the sins for HoPers for-- not very long actually.

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:Clearly, there are more than the 5 accepted senses.

aldous huxley proposes the 'reductive perception' model of senses; that we all naturally percieve the universe in it's entirety, but for the sake of species survival our concentration is divided up into *only* the senses that are necessary for our environment.

If our enviroment is western society, then our more exotic mental faculties, that of clairvoyance, intuition, the ability to see auras is not nurtured from an early age.
This process is cumulative - that is why children see things most western adults do not.
we lose what feels like magic.
then we end up going to confest an smoke stuff. smile

Obviously one is able to live a full happy life not being able to percieve auras. So please chill, this thread is foremost a discussion and not a edict.

if you do not trust your eyes, you do not see everything.
if you do not trust your ears, you will not hear eerything.
what chance then, do you have to sense auras if you do not trust it?


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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Moka
Moka

is a medium/large scary man
Location: Victoria, Australia, Earth, Mi...
Member Since: 31st Jul 2005
Total posts: 420
Posted:I'm a Reiki Practitioner myself... There are definately Auras, they are what allows us to live... Whether people believe in them or accept them they are all around us and are apart of everything, even your favorite fire-staff or Poi has subtle aura... lol...
Hope this sheds some light on things...
Catcha Moka


Contact juggling was invented by dung beetles.

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roarfire
roarfire

comfortably numb
Location: The countryside
Member Since: 8th Jul 2004
Total posts: 2676
Posted:It's definately a fasinating topic...but yeah I don't know enough about auras to put in a proper reply. But I'd like someone to 'read' my aura one day

*like petey, awaits Valuras aura workshop at common ground*


.All things are beautiful if we take the time to look.

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Sporky
Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow
Member Since: 25th Jul 2005
Total posts: 663
Posted:We do give out IR radiation (heat) so its entirely possible that people who can see auras are detecting changes in the persons body heat or the position of the heat and subconsciously interpreting that into either a visual representation or the 'vibe' that people get. That being said, its also possible that bender's points are the reason, perhaps those of us who see auras are merely tuning into something that requires a 6th sense. That begs the question of what we use to pick up this information.

Another fascinating topic. I'm gonna look into it in more depth after I've 'finished' with the synesthesia research. I'll post what I find.


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:ok, here are three models. please tell me which one you go for and why.

1. auras don't *actually* exist, but are projections of what we know about people, made manifest in our visual field. anyone with any degree of sensitivity can tell how other people are feeling, and for some people this translates into what they see as an 'aura'. people who see auras aren't picking up any more information than people who don't; they're just translating the info that they have differently.

2. auras *do* actually exist; we perceive them using our existing 5 senses, but for some mysterious reason they end up in our visual field [that is, it's a bit odd that we don't smell, taste, feel, or hear anything like an aura].

3. auras *do* exist; we perceive them using a sixth sense. people who see auras are genetically different to other people, and they have an extra sense. we don't know where this sense organ is; we don't know how it works; indeed, there is no evidence - other than personal, anecdotal evidence - that such an organ exists. nevertheless [this is the Bender model, in case you hadn't guessed]:

'Clearly, there are more than the 5 accepted senses.'

--

i'm baffled as to why anyone would think that there are more than 5 senses. there are simpler and more plausible ways of explaining this phenomenon than to suppose that people who see auras have tuned into a previously untapped channel of human communication. here's an analogy: there are people who hear voices. sometimes these voices present themselves as divine revelation, sometimes they give instructions. before modern psychiatry got involved, we thought that these people could talk to God / talk to their dead parents / talk to aliens, etc. nowadays, we see such auditory hallucinations as symptoms of a disorder, such as paranoid schizophrenia.

huxley's own model of human senses is, i have to say, pretty rubbish. it's not the case that we (as animals) evolved and then thought 'let's cut down on this crazy amount of information, it's just too much'. rather, animals evolved sense organs as ways of gathering information. creatures without eyes just don't see anything. huxley knew very little about the relevant science, and was struggling to explain the effects of mescaline. here's a better explanation: drugs make you see stuff that isn't there, or at the very least they can make you think that you're seeing greater detail / patterns than before. but i digress.

disclaimer: before someone jumps on me about this, i'm not suggesting that people who see auras have paranoid schizophrenia.


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Sakura_Moon
Sakura_Moon

Hop's Kitten Jester.
Location: Wonderland igloo, Vic, Austral...
Member Since: 12th Jul 2004
Total posts: 1803
Posted:I think they exist, thats all i'm saying

.:Pink Exocutioner:.

I am Jack's Raging Bile Duct...

Loving you from the deepest part of my loins.


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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:that you don't use a sense does not mean that it does not exist.

if by horrible fate you had never opened the eyes you are reading this post with, it would be difficult to accept the notion of sight.

If others can see and i cannot, surely they are wrong!

Open your third eye.


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Children who grow up being unable to see never even develop the necessary brain apparatus to be able to see if their vision was corrected later in life. I can't see why it would be different for any other sense that was developed in adult life.

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Moka
Moka

is a medium/large scary man
Location: Victoria, Australia, Earth, Mi...
Member Since: 31st Jul 2005
Total posts: 420
Posted:Written by: bender

that you don't use a sense does not mean that it does not exist.

if by horrible fate you had never opened the eyes you are reading this post with, it would be difficult to accept the notion of sight.

If others can see and i cannot, surely they are wrong!

Open your third eye.



HERE HERE! sunny


Contact juggling was invented by dung beetles.

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:What I see is not a static thing related to someone's 'personality' in a fixed way, but the intensity and nature of their transient emotional/mental states. I see nothing most of the time, The colours come and go and always disappear if I try to stare at them directly.

In terms of how many senses there are.. well, in the Buddhist system there are 6. They include mental perception... our ability to perceive our own thoughts/memories. We align these into being 'visual' or auditory and 'tactile' but clearly they are not 'seeing' and 'hearing' external phenomena. What 'empirical validity' does a memory have outside our experience of it?

Another aspect of our experiencing our world that also could qualify as a 'sense' is proprioception. It could be regarded as a variation of the tactile sense which is normally subconscious: Most of the time proprioception works perfectly, entirely without our conscious awareness. But some people are more aware of it. This could even be analogy for Quiet's option 2

Also I find it interesting to attempt to describe how we 'sense' mood and emotions: what actually is registering jealousy/optimism/sadness.


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:'that you don't use a sense does not mean that it does not exist.'

darn tooting. but it doesn't mean that it *does* exist, either. what reason do you have to think that it exists?


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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:vampyricacid( sp?!)- hi, just wanted to mention that you may want to do some research into maintaining boundaries on your empathetic awareness- it can cause problems when you take on others emotional states, for you and them. Yet It is an awareness/gift that can be used, particularily for counselling and healing, if understood and tuned appropriately. When it is not, the healer often wears themselves out, and ends up channelling things they should not. There are rituals and cleanses that can be done if needed, and some people work with light energy as a shield...Too much to explain, there are plenty of teachers and books out there, if it interests you explore! best wishes...

And yes, I share that emotional awareness, and also perceive auras. Usually too busy to nail down a definition of the experience though, and certainly would not assume that my experience is necessarily that of any one elses, or that there is a need for an empirical measure of such things... interesting discussion though.
smile smile

newgabe, enjoyed your description of the buddist perspective on senses, a good reminder for me right now...
hug


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Moka
Moka

is a medium/large scary man
Location: Victoria, Australia, Earth, Mi...
Member Since: 31st Jul 2005
Total posts: 420
Posted:Many People believe that there are actually 10 senses that people posess... 5 in the physical and the other five are the equivilent of the physical 5, (ie: clairvoyance, clairaudiance and the other senses) the idea is that many posess these "powers" (for lack of a better word) but like physical senses they can be affecteed by blindness, and deafness (and loss of other senses) and also blocked out by people who don't wish to use them (or people who over-use/abuse them).
I myself posess and use these other 3 of the other 5 senses, and use them to percieve auras, all auras can be seen, heard, felt, for me, and, smelt and tasted (for some other people people).
Hope this helps people wondering about strange 'sensations' when they get near to people...

Light and Love to all, Moka


Contact juggling was invented by dung beetles.

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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:call me a cynic, but i simply don't believe that you have more than 5 senses. we've got clear evidence for the 'standard' 5, as well as a biological account of how they work, and an evolutionary story about how they evolved. no-one has managed to produce anything comparable for anything that falls under the umbra of what people call 'ESP'.

i'm so sceptical that i'm willing to wager 1000 that no-one can prove that they possess any senses above and beyond the normal 5. specifically, moka: if you think you've got 'clairaudience', then i defy you to demonstrate it. for that matter, i'd be fascinated to see why you think you possess these abilities. your own inner experience isn't sufficient evidence: for instance, just because people hear voices doesn't mean that there are ghosts [c.f. paranoid schizophrenia and auditory delusions]. come on - give me some evidence, or an explanation of how it works. prove it, and i'll stump up 1000.


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Helen_of_Poi
Helen_of_Poi

lapsed spinner
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Member Since: 28th Apr 2004
Total posts: 412
Posted:The wager idea has been tried before. A guy called Stuart Landsborough in Wanaka, New Zealand buried a cheque for NZ $50,000 somewhere in the grounds of his "Puzzling World" Museum (massive fun maze, and loads of optical illusions and weird stuff). He challenged people who claim to have psychic abilities to locate the cash. (They have to pay him $1,000 to make a guess though!) That was over ten years ago now, as far as i know, and nobody has yet claimed the prize. Not sure how many have actually tried, but it's an interesting idea.

Helen_of_Poi

EJC Ireland 2006 Organisational Team

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Akashla
Akashla

member
Location: On the far left of sane
Member Since: 28th Jul 2005
Total posts: 72
Posted:Ive only ever seen traditional auras while tripping on hallucinogenic substances. Thats the only time i really want to see them.

Personally, I neither believe in them nor disbelieve in them. We dont know enough either way.

Just because youve been taught something, it doesnt make it true. Science always gets it wrong. It needs to, or it cant grow. If you are familiar with the laws of physics, you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that bumble-bees cannot fly. Obviously this is incorrect, yet science just glosses over this. We ignore what we dont understand.

Likewise, we are told that nothing can travel faster than light. This 'fact' is the basis of a number of inferred conclusions. Yet, when we examine a particle, break it down to its 'smallest' components, we find that each exist in pairs. If we seperate the pair, we can place them in any seperate locations, different laboratories, different countries, so that they can be observed simultaneously in different places. Then, we manipulate one side of the pair, do anything which causes it to exhibit a response, and (this is the unexplainable part) the other side of the pair will exhibit the same response, instantaneously. Instantaneous information passed between one and the other.
Faster than light.

A little off topic, i suppose, so lets bring it back to the subject matter. If we base this within our current view of the world it cannot happen. We need further dimensions that we are not currently aware of. These other dimensions would have to have a way of transmitting energy, which we currently cannot detect. What is to say that auras, esp, cant be transmitted in the same way? What is to say that they cant be picked up in the same way? The colous etc could easily be attributed to one way of interpreting the information, in a similar way that people about to experience migraines have strange sensory malformation before an attack.

I guess i'll have to wait and see...


I am not a bitch.
I am THE bitch.
And Im Miss Bitch to you.

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shroomo
shroomo

newbie
Location: South London/Brighton (Surrey/...
Member Since: 26th Jul 2005
Total posts: 16
Posted:my dads a reiki teacher, and has taught me alot. i definatly think every living thing has an aura or energy source, and if you learn to channel it properly the power can be amazing! Also Crystals are very powerful and if you find the right crystal and pass your hand over the top of it, you can actually feel energy coming from it! at least thats what i believe! luv 2 everyone! peace angelblue

[INSERT HALF DECENT SIGNATURE HERE]

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Moka
Moka

is a medium/large scary man
Location: Victoria, Australia, Earth, Mi...
Member Since: 31st Jul 2005
Total posts: 420
Posted:Quiet, I am really sorry you are so sceptical, I genuinely do see and hear things when I'm with people, things I could not possibly know when I first meet them... Whether that means I'm Paranoid Schizophrenic or not I don't know, all I know is I'm happy with my 'gift' (for that is how I see it) and like you being sceptic is your choice, me being a believer is mine...

BTW: The sad thing is the people who try for the NZ$50,000, or 1000 Pounds, aren't true psychics or clairvoyants, people who truly have these gifts do not abuse them by trying to prove it to others. You could put the same kind of money up for proving the existance of 'god' and no-one would ever be able to take it from you. If you truly want to find out if these gifts exist travel around your local area and spend that 1000 pounds on clairvoyants, see if they can make a believer out of you. The proof is there... All you have to do is look...

Light and Love to all... Moka


Contact juggling was invented by dung beetles.

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: Moka
BTW: The sad thing is the people who try for the NZ$50,000, or 1000 Pounds, aren't true psychics or clairvoyants, people who truly have these gifts do not abuse them by trying to prove it to others.


Forgive me for saying this, but that is a very convenient get-out clause...


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:why on earth would clairvoyants be unwilling to prove that they can do what they say?

it just doesn't make any sense. if i go around claiming to be a doctor [as in 'medical doctor'], and claim that i can cure arthritis, for instance, then it's perfectly warranted for people to ask for credentials / a demonstration / proof. it wouldn't be an abuse of my abilities to demonstrate them. could you explain why clairvoyance is different in this respect?

and could you give me an example of information that you have acquired via your 'powers' which you 'couldn't possibly have known' when you first met them?


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Akashla
Akashla

member
Location: On the far left of sane
Member Since: 28th Jul 2005
Total posts: 72
Posted:Unfortunately, these sort of topics are predominated by people who really want to believe in these things, and have no real proof. Due to their own strong belief, they personally require no proof. For the more cynical, these people take away all credibility from anything real.

Im not saying anything about anybody on these boards, nor passing comment on anyone who has posted previously. As the public relations officer of a university pagan society, i met my fair share of freaks and geeks, both cynics and believers. Im a flag waving (poi spinning?) freak and geek, and am a cynic and a believer at the same time, which makes for interesting internal communicae.

Some people will always need more proof, others will believe anything they hear.

A strong theory is better than an easily discounted, circumstantial proof. And your own investigation is usually far superior to anyone elses.


I am not a bitch.
I am THE bitch.
And Im Miss Bitch to you.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: Moka
BTW: The sad thing is the people who try for the NZ$50,000, or 1000 Pounds, aren't true psychics or clairvoyants, people who truly have these gifts do not abuse them by trying to prove it to others.



Couldn't they donate the money to charity. If they really did have a gift then it be possible to detect either it or its effects in some way or other.

Then again mabey it's a load of bullsh!t from credulous people blinded by the intensity of their faith...
(Sorry but I had to say it. I've just found out Bush is putting his wieght behind intelligent design so I'm in a bit of a mood) mad


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:Once you experience something for yourself, sometimes it simply becomes irrelevant whether any one else believes, or has proof, or needs it...To waste time proving anything for someone else, or for a lump sum of money, is silly! It is a diversion of energy.



I surprise myself by even engaging in the discussion! ;-)



Many people demonstrate the existence of their " gifts" on a daily basis. ( For example using them for healing -eg reiki among other forms) Proving it by using it, to their own satisfaction, and that of the people benefitting from the work they do. Why should they prove anything to anyone else? They are often just busy doing what they do. And maybe not even all that interested in the definition,mechanics, or the hows and the whys as seen by others.



As for those that are interested in finding proof, ( or disproving) go for it! But do it understanding that our attempts to define and quantify are limited by our current concepts of what we are trying to measure, and thus the tools we have available. For example, bacteria were considered an absurd idea --until someone developed a microscope that allowed us to see them. But no one would have developed the microscope, until people had presented the "absurd" hypothesis. The idea was there, later supported by a lot of circumstantial evidence and observations, then the tool for investigation was created, then the "proof" discovered and voila! the existence of bacteria was demonstrated... Yet, interestingly, the bacteria were there all along!



We tend to look with tools that fit our ideas, and we tend to find what we look for. That can be limiting. Humans reject conclusions that do not fit our preconceptions. Perhaps we find a more acceptable conclusion, and enforce that . Or simply reject the data/expereince altogether.



An example: you travel to a foreign country, and are presented with an object that is absolutely unlike anything you have ever seen. Normally, if something is unfamiliar, the first thing we do is try to relate it to something we do know. Like, well, it is sort of squarish, with a round bit on the end... and the colour is a bit like purple, but not quite... But **what if** - it is not like anything!!! Not square, not round, not coloured, defying all your known possibilities? Something that makes the terms shape and colour irrelevant? How would your brain handle that?



Some scientist and philosophers theorize that your brain has sets of mental "templates" that it uses for definitions, to make sense of what we see and experience. We expand and elaborate on the templates as we age and gain expereince. Hence, the constant comparisons. ( just a theory, but an interesting one!)





But what if there is no reference point to begin with? Some suggest that if we encounter something so completely out of those parameters as to be not comparable, (no template to refer to), we simply would reject the experience. Not see it, not acknowledge it.... Or perhaps, go mad, having the vague sense of something that we do not even have the conceptual vocabulary to think about/discuss.



Can we create new reference points? Or elaborate more wildly on the ones we have? Maybe. For many this is the point of exploring altered states of consciousness.



Someone needs to risk imagining what else there can be, so we can even think about what to look for. Do we know where to begin looking ? Or how? In this forum we can not even agree on what sense is used to percieve an aura, should they exist. So, do we just try every * known* form of measurement, and hope we find something?And if we dont, assume there was nothing to find? What if it just does not fit our cateogories at all? Are the tools we attempt to use remotely applicable to the task?



Consider the story of the five men, each with one sense, exploring the elephant- and each coming to a different conclusion of what it was, based on the limitations of their perceptions...



So conversations that expand the range of possibilities are important, because then people may start looking and learning in new ways, and develop the necessary tools and templates to examine the world effectively. Then, the people that require concrete measurable proof will have it to their satisfaction... Until consiousness shifts, more information becomes available, we reject those measures, and advance again.



In the meantime, people pushing the conceptual boundaries are often considered nuts, - even heretical and dangerous, by whatever body considers themselves the current authority on the subject. Sometimes their hypotheses are validated later, when society is ready, and the proofs are available, sometimes not... It has always been thus. Right now it is scientists, and the scientific standard of measurement considered acceptable. That way of looking at things is actually a fairly recent development, and is itself likely subject to change... At the moment the field of quantum mechanics is currently changing much of scientific methodology, including the very nature of the questions we ask.



So, keep postulating, and exploring, and who knows what you will find!



In the meantime, I will be busy, just doing what I do...

( at least until someone burns me at the stake!)

smiles,

Andrea


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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JayKitty
JayKitty

Mission: Ignition
Location: Central New Jersey
Member Since: 7th Nov 2004
Total posts: 534
Posted:A lot of people here are into some kind of new age stuff. I wore a crystal around my neck for years. In fact I'm still sad remembering when it went down the drain. I always felt it kept me balanced and clear. Aura's are the kinda thing that exist if you want it to, and as odd as that sounds, if you don't think you'll see it you won't. It's that "vibe" you get off people, when some really skeevy person comes up to you and you know right off this person is just no good or when you meet someone and you know rght off "this is someone i can trust" That's more or less the jist of an aura regardless if you can see it or not you can still feel it.

Don't mind me, just passing through.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: andrealee

Why should they prove anything to anyone else?...
...For example, bacteria were considered an absurd idea



Well, so that our health sevices could be updated to take advantage of the fabulous benifits supposedly offered by these magical treatments. Then others would be trained to help and heal. Unless of course it doesn't work of course...

As for bacteria, although we couldn't see them, thier effects could be seen and exprerienced. And they didn't seem to run away from tests and experiments, why should reiki?


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:This is infuriating.

1. When you ask for evidence / proof / reason to believe that e.g. auras exist, people say 'well, we don't need to provide evidence.' No, of course you don't; but there isn't any good reason not to, either. And if such talents (e.g. reiki healing) exist, then it'd be in the interests of everyone if we knew about them, because then we could support their use in healing people. I might claim to be an amazing juggler, and if someone says 'go on, show me', I don't think I've got any obligation to demonstrate. But nor do I think I've got any good reason not to do so.

2. There's an argument I see all the time in these threads, and it misses the point entirely. It goes like this: someone comes up with a crazy idea, whereupon other people say 'hang on, that's a crazy idea.' 'Hang on', says the first person, 'there's a now-proven scientific theory (bacteria, quanta, atoms, the spherical earth, whatever) which people previously considered to be crazy. So crazy ideas might turn out to be true, nonetheless.'

Look: of *course* crazy ideas might turn out to be true, and of *course* this has happened in the past. But there are a hell of a lot of other crazy ideas which turned out to be false: in fact, there are more crazy ideas which turned out to be false than there are crazy ideas which turned out to be true. The point of the objection wasn't that craziness equated to impossibility: the point is that THE CRAZINESS OF AN IDEA COUNTS AGAINST IT, or puts the burden of proof onto the person who proposed the crazy idea. It's not that 'it sounds crazy, so it can't be true'; it's that 'it sounds crazy, so I'm going to be sceptical until you do some explaining'.

3. Re: 'new reference points', 'preconceptions', etc etc. Some people seem to think that the reason why people don't accept the existence of auras is because they don't fall into their existing preconceptions of the world. Well, perhaps. But I'm not doing this: I'm reacting to people who say things like 'perceiving auras allows me to glean information about people which I otherwise wouldn't be able to get', or 'my reiki powers allow me to heal people'. Ok, sure - maybe this happens. But I've got reason to be sceptical, until you give me some explanation, or evidence. These are solid claims, and they can be measured / tested (i.e. I can ask 'what information do you get', or 'please heal me'). And I'm completely baffled by your reluctance to get involved in this. Again, I'm not talking about auras themselves, I'm talking about the abilities which 'seeing auras' supposedly confers on people.


ture na sig

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Sporky
Sporky

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Location: Glasgow
Member Since: 25th Jul 2005
Total posts: 663
Posted:Quiet: Well said.

Why do a large number of people believe in "God" when he/she/it has never proven his/her/its existence? Just because people can't see it doesn't mean its not there.


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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