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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:The NYPD has now begun random bag searches on subway riders.

Yup, folks, in the U.S. you can be randomly stopped and searched.

I sure hope this gets knocked down, because I'd rather die in an explosion than have the fourth amendment trampled.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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MikeIcon
MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Member Since: 27th Mar 2003
Total posts: 2109
Posted:Oh boy, another reason for me to hate NY...

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:well, at least the President of the USA is not condoning wasting suspects who run from undercover terror police, while they lay on the ground... cough Blair cough innocent Brazilian cough shot five times in the head....

I wonder who will achieve a full police state first... USA or UK???

It is sad that these terrorists are winning...They spend a few thousand dollars on plane tickets and a little C4, and we spend billions on more police and more troops, and less freedom.

When are we going to get tired of it and close down the boarders, and deport the @$#%#@$#$! ???

Send them home to their ancestral lands. Deport 3% of the population, or let 100% of the population loose their freedoms.

It's going to come to that, and worse.

Oh, and those aren't troops on the subway in NYC, they are police, it is illegal to use military for law enforcement. Although it can be difficult to tell the difference, these days, what with the police in NYC carrying submachineguns and assault rifles..

Sorry, I know there are people here who love NYC, but it is already a "police state" and has been for years, only the rich and powerful citizens of NYC can carry a pistol on the streets for defense, while the cops are armed like it's a war zone. Unlike the 38 other states which allow ALL law abiding citizens to obtain a permit to pack a pistol...


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Umm, how do you justify deporting people who've lived all their lives in Britain? How about bombers who have British/American nationality? Or were you talking about deporting people of certain religious backgrounds e.g. Muslims? *coughHitlercough*

Deportation doesn't work. You can't forcibly remove whole populations because of what you suspect they may do. Why not arrest all Chavs because at some point they will beat someone up? Why not arrest people who listen to Bob Marley on the assumption that they will at some point smoke weed?

And on a side note, I love the way that almost none of the newspapers mentioned that the police were in plain clothes. If I was being chased by people in normal clothes waving pistols, I'd probably run too. Quite why they felt the need to shoot him 5 times is something I can only speculate on.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Spiderbaby
Spiderbaby

c",

Member Since: 31st Mar 2005
Total posts: 199
Posted:When he was on the ground he must have been moving or something. Police can only open fire when a weapon or something that looks like a weapon is drawn or when somone endangers the life of the cop or the life of spectators. So if it looked for a second like that brazilian was going to detonate a bomb it was the officer's duty to control the situation (stop him from detonating the bomb). And the only way to make sure he doesnt detonate the bomb is to kill him instantly (shoot him repeatedly in the head)

So thats why he was shot. To the officer at that time the only safe option was to fire and kill.

Its great for us because we know he was innocent but that cop had a tough decision.

Of coarse the fear caused by the bombings helped too. If there were no bombings over the last few weeks the poor censored wouldnt have been shot because the police wouldnt think there could be suacide bombers in London.


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squarexbear
squarexbear

....of doom!
Location: Hastings, UK
Member Since: 17th Apr 2005
Total posts: 585
Posted:It now appears to have been 8 shots...7 to the head, 1 to the shoulder (from the inquest, Times 26/07)....overkill, i think.

the reason they unloaded into his head is that in Israel, this has been found to be the safest method of stopping a suicide bomber (body shots may explode the bomb/the suicide bomber could be wearing a protective vest).

Deporting people will NOT help...not only is there the issue of second generation immigrants etc, deportation will only serve the terrorists cause by fuelling resentment against the deporting countries.
anyway, i'd like to see you try...the UK currently finds it hard enough to remove the few asylum seekers it decides to deport.


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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:Written by: Spiderbaby

Police can only open fire when a weapon or something that looks like a weapon is drawn or when somone endangers the life of the cop or the life of spectators.


Not any more frown

That's the shocking bit. Scares the bejesus out of me.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:i don't think it was overkill.

rule number one: don't run away from a team of armed police during a high-scale terrorist manhunt - and if you do find yourself in that situation, try hard to not run directly into a place/vehicle that is considered to be the number one target for the terrorists being hunted.

*i decided not to write any more about this - there are two sides to every coin but right now, neither of them makes me very happy*

my thoughts are with the family of the man shot dead and with the police that had the unfortunate responsibility of doing it.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by: coleman


i don't think it was overkill.



rule number one: don't run away from a team of armed police during a high-scale terrorist manhunt - and if you do find yourself in that situation, try hard to not run directly into a place/vehicle that is considered to be the number one target for the terrorists being hunted.







I don't think it's that simple. In my view, "shoot to kill" needs an immediate review.



This policy doesn't account for those who would not be able to recognise the police, such as people who have little command of the English language, or people whose mental or physical difficulties would hinder them from doing so - especially if the police are not in uniform.



I hope that if I am ever in such a situation, I'll be able to remember your advice quickly enough shrug



By the way, frostypaw: it's good to see you back hug


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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daphne
daphne

member
Location: dark sun
Member Since: 4th May 2005
Total posts: 91
Posted:personally, i think that both sides are wrong. violence is never the solution... let alone killing people. war-terrorist hit- another war- more hits - :it's a never ending cycle. Besides this, it has become the perfect reason for governements to do outrageous things that violate totally our rights. something should be done... things are getting out of hand.

I'll tell you this...
No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn. "Jim Morrison"
****
"...but I, being poor, have only my dreams
I've spread my dreams under your feet
tread softly because you tread on my dreams..." Yeats

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flid
flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire
Member Since: 27th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3136
Posted:Written by: Daphne
personally, i think that both sides are wrong. violence is never the solution...





since when? There's a difference between defense and initiating violence. I'm happy to have lived in a country up until now where police don't need to carry guns, but if they now need to then they should. I'm happy that I've lived in a country where there is no shoot to kill until now, but if there are people who will blow themselves up and kill other people if they arn't, then that's a sad sense of the times, not a reason not to have the policy.



I agree with coleman, I don't mean to speak ill of the dead but what the f*** was the guy thinking?! I can't think of a better way to get myself shot by armed police than do what he did, so whilst I have every sympathy with his family, I have no issues with the decision made by the police. Hindsight is easy, if the police hadn't have shot to kill him and he had been carrying a bomb then we'd be asking different questions.



Page 5 of today's mirror has a brazilian girl holding a plackard saying "RACIST KILLERS". They shot him because he was acting like a dangerous criminal (the fact that he didn't pay to go on the underground makes him a petit criminal at least), saying it was racist is just dumb (at uni my black housemate once shouted at bouncers of a club calling them racist when they'd chucked him out (very nicely and professionally i might add) for being completely paralitic and sleasing over women/not taking no for an answer, then the police who turned up racist for suggesting he go home).



I agree that it could be a problem with people who cannot speak english properly, are hard of hearing or have a mental disability, and I don't think that shoot-to-kill should be used in any but the most extreme circumstances.



Written by: Daphne
things are getting out of hand





I agree, but what do you suggest we do about it? I'm pretty happy all in all with the current responce, realistically speaking. I'd love for us all to hold hands and get on, but whilst I think we're generally moving forward (don't let minor issues such as this tarnish the bigger picture) I don't see that happening in my life time.


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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:why do people care so much about random bag searches?

ture na sig

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flid
flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire
Member Since: 27th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3136
Posted:kind of annoying if you're in a hurry (most commuters generally leave the house late)

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:Written by: flid


They shot him because he was acting like a dangerous criminal (the fact that he didn't pay to go on the underground makes him a petit criminal at least)



I'd run the hell away from a bunch of guys waving a gun at me too... they weren't in uniform (apparently) which IMHO changes lots of things.... usual case of asking myself what I'd do - and I wouldn't wait til they caught up and ask if I could see their badges so I was sure they were police and not muggers.



Sad mistake.



And hey Spanner smile it's good to be back. Where's Ray? wink

EDITED_BY: frostypaw (1122384214)


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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flid
flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire
Member Since: 27th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3136
Posted:If we're talking about this specific incident, not shoot to kill in general....



Written by: frawstypaw
they weren't in uniform (apparently)





apparently (if you beleive what you read in the sun), they only put their police caps on after they started chasing him, and one guy claims they never shouted police at all. I think there should always be an enquirey into anything like this, if the police (assuming they were) didn't follow procedure then they should possibly be charged with manslaughter.



Written by: frawstypaw
And hey Spanner it's good to be back. Where's Ray?





"oh god, not the war forum again" did cross my mind on 7/7 wink


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squarexbear
squarexbear

....of doom!
Location: Hastings, UK
Member Since: 17th Apr 2005
Total posts: 585
Posted:Written by: flid

Written by: frawstypaw
they weren't in uniform (apparently)



apparently (if you beleive what you read in the sun), they only put their police caps on after they started chasing him, and one guy claims they never shouted police at all. I think there should always be an enquirey into anything like this, if the police (assuming they were) didn't follow procedure then they should possibly be charged with manslaughter.



i've also seen similar things in the times and on a couple of american news websites..so its not just the sun.

i would have scarpered...

why did they let him get on a bus between the flats and the tube station?


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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:That's what really wierds me out when they said they had to shoot him as he was getting on public transport :que: smiley needed there!

I gripe on about this a fair bit... it's the misinformation that gets me. Things like that, or the police saying they weren't giving out names of the confirmed dead because they didn't want a trickle of information then doing exactly that a day later. It makes me feel messed around in my own country by my protectors, and makes me doubt everything


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:"Scotland Yard are not commenting on details of the shooting because it is being investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission."

i can understand that not knowing everything can create feelings of doubt in the ability of the emergency services to protect us and can create a general state of paranoia but under the circumstances, i don't think i personally need to know everything that is going on.

in most high-pressure situations like this, it is not practical for the entire population of the country to know every decision that is being made as it is made.

i know it requires a fairly large amount of trust in our security services but the misinformation you perceive in the media may be necessary - the terrorists can access at least the same level of information as you or i can.

to be honest, i haven't seen that much misinformation - i only read the bbc news website as they tend to be a bit more consistent at confirming their stories with an official source prior to publishing it.

dammit, i said i wasn't going to write any more about this... frown


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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vanize
vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:about the only thing randon bag searches on the subway would do it get a terrorist to set off his bomb a few minutes early.

what's the point?


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:firstly, its a deterrent.

secondly, i think bag searches would be conducted at ground level in the station entrances rather than in packed tunnels underground where the bombers want to detonate their devices.

this is my last post in this thread.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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vanize
vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:yeah yeah, sure sure...
wink


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:damn you vanize, i hate being wrong...!

wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:They are doing the searches, from my understanding, before passengers enter the system. Although if I got stopped in the system, I would refuse and exit.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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duballstar
duballstar

slack rating - 9.5
Location: Suburbiton, Yoo-Kay
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2003
Total posts: 2216
Posted:hmmm... i dunno about that, if you refuse to be searched you could end up pinned to the floor with a hole in the head... frown

It is our fantasies that make us real. Without our fantasies we're just a blank monkey' - Terry Pratchett

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:do not forget that in Israel (the place your police are taking their "shoot first" policy from), Pretty much everybody can carry a machinegun or pistol. Little old ladies shoot suicide bombers in the back of the head... stuff like that. Even school teachers pack pistols and machine guns, that stoped school hostage taking, much cheaper than hiring extra people. And the weapons are concealed, so the terrorists don't know who has one.

Deportation is ALWAYS THE SOLLUTION ;-)

Move the Jews to Alaska, problem solved. No more palastinian problem.

Move the arabs that have come to our country over the last few years back to their home country (and the former Israel), let them have a jew's house, and a little spending cash... (It will be cheaper in the long run than fighting a war on terror) And fortify our national boundries, to make it difficult or impossible to enter illegaly.

Problem solved.

That is unless the Muslims (and their extreamists, although in a differnt manner) are actually attempting to convert the world to Islam...again..., in which case they will keep coming untill we are all dead, or they are dead. Holy War I wonder, in 1000 if the world of Islam will appologize and admit it's wrongs, like the Europeans have about the crusades?

Which brings up an interesting point... Why are all the trouble spots in the world these days are related to Islam in some way?


Mohammed Akbar Al-Jabar, British citizen, blew himself up the other day. Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this picture...?

They better not mess with Ireland, lest the IRA show them how it's done. It's called a "remote detonator", duh!!!!!!!! (stupid suicide bombers)


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:and it is frightening that Blair is supporting the "it's ok to shoot suspects in the head multiple times" method. The last time I checked, it was illegal to execute someone before they have had a fair trial.

NYC is a place I never want to visit, just like Chicago (again). Who wants to live where the police need to be armed like soldiers, yet the citizens aren't allowed to carry guns for protection. Me thinks I'll stay in Oklahoma, or Texas, or just about any other geographical location in the USA.

Sarcasm on
Oh yea, I forgot, only the police have the mental and physical skills required to make a life or death choice (brazilian head 7 times) sarcasm off.

And, for those of you who don't know, the Oklahoma City Bombing was aided by islamic extreamist's money. Terry Nichols got his training with Islamic extreamists in Malaysia (also currently undergoing the effects of islamic terrorists) Timothy McVeay (SP?) had Iraqi phone numbers on him when he was captured.
This former army seargent met iraqis apparently while in Desert storm (gulf war 1) And the eye witness sketches of John Doe #2 look just like that radiological bomber than got busted a year or two ago up around new york, a street gangster turned Muslim (remember the attempted radiological bomber they busted a while back?) Oh, and the government still won't release the surveilance tapes from the OKC bombing. The government still won't admit that this is the same guy. Why? At the time, they didn't want to admit that it was muslim extreamists attacking us, and now the government doesn't want to admit that they lied. I guess


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:eek



ubblol



Ship em off home eh?! Lol, well, I expect the indigenous tribes of the US and Australia will be delighted to get their land back smile



Edit:

Oh yes, and in Ireland guns are illegal - so all so-called Irish Americans will have to hand them over when they arrive.

And also... lots of people won't appreciate jokes about how 'good' at killing the IRA were. smile

EDITED_BY: Firepoise (1122407907)


Getting to the other side smile

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Just out of curiosity, are you actually serious about deportation being a valid solution? Then why don't we all just segregate all religions?

Dibs on the Atheist camp in Jamaica! ubblol


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Spiderbaby
Spiderbaby

c",

Member Since: 31st Mar 2005
Total posts: 199
Posted:DJ Dantana you say what other people are afraid to say.
I agree with your stance on the israeli jews. But if i post what i really think, i will be murdered by a moderator while i sleep.

You seem really against Muslims why is that? Do you think your country is being actively attacked by muslims? I think its kinda the other way around.

Yeah the IRA are not to be joked about.


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fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:Written by: DJ Dantana

Move the Jews to Alaska, problem solved. No more palastinian problem.

Move the arabs that have come to our country over the last few years back to their home country (and the former Israel), let them have a jew's house, and a little spending cash... (It will be cheaper in the long run than fighting a war on terror) And fortify our national boundries, to make it difficult or impossible to enter illegaly.

Problem solved.




ok, now please forgive me if this was sarcastic and I didn't pick up on it BUT

lets think about a few things shall we:

when israel was formed, many palestinians left by choice
they were offered their homes back and refused
the PLO was formed in 1964, before the 1967 Arab-Israeli war

and more recently

archaelogical evidence of early jewish settlement under the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem was almost nearly destroyed in an attempt to claim the spot and deny anyone else a claim


kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:I don't think I've ever been afraid to speak my mind here on HoP. shrug

And views that are 'moderated' are most often done so because they are offensive... that doesn't necessarily dilute the views on here - but if your views need to be moderated maybe you should take a look at why.

Why would anyone support a continued or enforced segregation for any people?!
We need to work on bringing people together, breaking down fears and building communities - not going in the opposite direction.

I use Northern Ireland as an example because it's the one I'm most familiar with - but this community is divided over branches of Christianity (not even between religions) and we've had 30 years of civil war and thousands of deaths.

In the 60s and 70s the councils tried to mix the communities in housing estates, but gradually over the years the hatred and ignorance became so strong that the sides segregated themselves.
Why?!! If they just open their eyes to look they will see they are the same.

Cross-community groups try to organise activities to bring the kids together... but this is a deeply entrenched hatred and mistrust that is going to take generations to heal.

Why on earth would you encourage that in a new group of people?

We're all the same... we need to learn to live together.

Incidentally, Doc, we had random bag and person searches in Northern Ireland during the 80s and 90s... no one really objected to it because the aim was to stop someone leaving a bomb somewhere, or carrying a gun (it was often on the way into bigger shops).

The idea being, if you've nothing to hide, then you don't have a problem.

The searches stopped with the ceasefires.


Getting to the other side smile

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