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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:Continuing something from ICoN's Double Crossers Thread...

What do people call waist wraps? My definition of one is a fair bit different to ICoN's...

Written by: ICoN

A waist wrap is when one arm is crossed in front or in back of your body ie a wall plane weave. BTB waist wrap is a wall plane weave on the left or right side of your body with one arm crossed behind your back.




I call that a BTB weave in wallplane though.

For what I'd call a BTB waistwrap, the poi would be making 3 distinct wallplane circles, in this order, before starting back with the first one again.
This set would be for the left hand and the right hand should be following it...
- in front of you on the right with your arm crossed behind your back.
- behind your back.
- in front of you on the left.

Here's a picture lifted from Anna Jillings' 'Modern Club Swinging and Pole Spinning' to show what I mean, hopefull this'll be clearer than how I can describe it in text.

Non-Https Image Link


I hope he doesn't mind me linking to this...
This is a video by Orbit, showing a very nice set of BTB waist wraps and variations. Right click and save it if you want to watch it.

For the non-BTB version, your arms would be crossing in front of your body and the wallplane circles would be like this, again for the left hand...
- behind you on the right with your arm crossed in front of you.
- in front of you.
- behind you on the left.

A full waist wrap would link both of those together, to make a pattern of 6 circles for each poi before starting the pattern again.
This site has a small video of PK doing a full waist wrap, just before turning.

*crosses fingers* I hope this doesn't turn into another fountain definition style thread wink


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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strugz
BRONZE Member since Mar 2002

strugz

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Southampton - Possibly..., Uni...

Total posts: 3964
Posted:makes sense to me bovril smile

Fluffy was telling me all about "correct" waistwraps in ireland and the 3 circle rule was where she was going i think.

Who am i to argue, she knows her stuff - as do you by the looks of it smile


"...We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing......."

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Arty Farty
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

Arty Farty

I wear yellow on monday
Location: Farnham Ahoy, United Kingdom

Total posts: 551
Posted:the fact you have a diagram says it for me

You'll find me on the dance floor

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:thats not a diagram... thats a picture wink

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:
Waist Wrap
From Wikipoidia

A club-swinging term for a 2-beat split-time move where for each poi the first circle goes under the arm, the second in front of the belly and the third under the other arm followed by a carry back to the starting position, all spun in the wall plane. There are 4 variations in front and 4 BTB and these can be combined into 2 full waist wraps.


POI THEO(R)IST

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:Hmm, after reading my first post again, I've decided that it comes across as fairly hostile - almost challenging people to dispute what I was saying.

That certainly wasn't my intention, just the problems with posting after only 3 hours of sleep wink


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Im failing to see where you and I differ Bov... Perhaps youre misunderstanding my description (or maybe Im just describing it wrong) but the picture you post is more or less what I meant. How is this different than a btb wall plane weave? Are you saying its only a waist wrap if it does 3 circles and that you cant hold it on one side of your body?

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:A waistwrap is just those 3 circles (unless you're doing the full waist wrap, which is 6).
If you hold it on one side of your body, it becomes a BTB wall plane weave.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:I dont see why it has to be like that. I always just referred to any of these moves, where one arm is wrapped around the waist, as a waist wrap.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:I reckon it's just easier for a waist wrap to have it's own name.
If a waist wrap is anything with an arm wrapped around the waist, the sequence of moves that I call a waist wrap loses it's name, so what does it get called instead?

A BTB wallplane weave already has it's own name, why should we also give it the name from another move too?
I see it like this - the weave and the fountain are similar moves in practise, but each get their own name because it's then easier to distinguish between them. A wallplane weave and a waistwrap are also fairly similar in practise, so why shouldn't they get names that distinguish between them too?


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:But thats the thing, I never use the term wallplane weave... Sure, that describes what and where the move is, but the move was always called a waist wrap to me. A waist wrap to me is defined as a weave in wall plane. I dont call hip reels alternating wall plane circles so why would I call waist wraps wall plane weaves?



Are you basing this whole thing off the club spinning book? If so, I feel like the book was meant to be taken less literally than "THIS MOVE AND ONLY THIS MOVE IS A WAIST WRAP" To me, any move that utilizes the technique should be a waist wrap.


Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand

Total posts: 625
Posted:I dont know. I actually asked this question alot of times before. There are alot of problems with the name thang. Ie the amout of variations, and direction.

There are afew answers in the : Impossible waistwrap thread And i also added a video clip that near shows what i sort of ment.

Im with Icon. Anything where your hand wraps your waist is a WW. Up untill this thread i was convinved that WW ONLY refered to butterfly ww. And iv been calling this move btb WW weave. Afew yrs ago arashi was calling it btb in the front wall plane.

As with the (not so) impossible WW. Both hands are ww at the same time, where as in a normall ww only one hand is actually wrapping your [or some one else's wink ] waist. ubblol

So i think we really need to define the terms and conditions wink better. Then atleast we can find better understanding in text smile

Personally i find ww butterfly harder than ww weave.

If we only use WW for the above version, then where would that leave all the other variations Ie Coleman's tongueroper butterfly waist wrap thread (I cant seem to find the link, the search is crap)


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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:
The reason we don't call hip reels alternating wall plane circles is that they're not the only alternating wall plane circles that can be done - there's loads of them so we've given them their own names to make it easier to distinguish between them.
If we didn't, I could be doing shoulder reels while you could be doing hip reels and we'd both be calling them the same thing - it just makes it easier to describe what we're doing.

Written by: ICoN

any move that utilizes the technique should be a waist wrap



So a fountain is a waistwrap?
How about a basic figure of 8?
This is what I'm getting at - if you call everything that involves crossing an arm across your waist a waist wrap you'd end up with a huge list of moves and the term becomes meaningless because it describes such a wide variety of movements.
Plus, the waist wrap described in Anna Jillings' book (and Michal Khan's one), wouldn't have a name anymore, it'll need to be renamed, almost certainly with something that's more cumbersome.
'two beat wallplane waistwrap lower half-fountain' anyone?

Written by: ICoN

Are you basing this whole thing off the club spinning book?



Yep, pretty much. Mainly because the club swinging names predate the poi ones and I can't be bothered to learn two sets of names for identical moves, just so I can use the right one for the toy I'm playing with at the time.

Written by: Anna Jillings

Back Waist Wrap
The back waist wrap is an impressive follow time pattern which moves across the back of the waist. It will feel strange to perform as it is assymetrical. On the way across the back of the body there are a total of three circles as compared to just a single swing straight back to restart the motion, see Figure 17.4 opposite.



Figure 17.4 is the one I posted at the start of the thread
That sounds fairly specific to me, not implying that anything with an arm that wraps across your waist is a waistwrap.
If anything, it's the movement of both poi and arms across your body throughout the whole thing that makes it a waistwrap, not that just one arm has been moved across to the other side of your body.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand

Total posts: 625
Posted:[quote}

Written by: ICoN



Are you basing this whole thing off the club spinning book?







Yep, pretty much. Mainly because the club swinging names predate the poi ones and I can't be bothered to learn two sets of names for identical moves, just so I can use the right one for the toy I'm playing with at the time.





I think we should all make efforts to understand what other spinners name a move. There is no way everyone is going to follow a single term (dictionary) style poi move language. I think we should all learn the languages of jillings/ Schatz / Michal Khan or what ever arashi calls inverted wink (example : spiders )



This name problem happens all the time. Its not going to just go away. Im sure you can respect that icon calles it a waist wrap, icon will respect you call it a BTB weave in wallplane and everyone is confused because schatz calls it a fountain. (stone?)



However, i do understand that there is alot of confusion with the fountain/ crossed hands thing! But we were talking about this in the impossible thread. There are alot of moves un-named or variations of named moves that confuse the issue.



Just look how many different ways people are doing the same move in the Butterfly waist wrap thread


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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Yeah, look... Its all pretty trivial to me. The reason this comes up is because in the double crosser thread I said:

Written by:
"Ok, so take a 4 beat BTB waist wrap weave. Say youre spinning clockwise and youre on the right side of your body. At the point where your left poi crosses to the back side (your arms should be crossed), instead of letting the right poi follow to uncross your arms, put it under your right leg for a beat instead."



In that context, I dont feel I misused the term "waist wrap" even by your standards, Bov. If you do your version of the BTB waist wrap with 4 beats instead of two, clockwise, and start it on the right side of the body the description still works as intended. The only word in there that might be throwing you off is "weave" but thats just to indicate that its going the same direction (as opposed to butterfly). Now, perhaps I was slightly wrong when I defined "waist wrap" in that thread but the fact is my description is still valid.


Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:Isnt there already a "lets argue over definitions of moves" thread?

wink


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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:Yeah, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree and recognise that we just have different uses of the waist wrap name, or this'll turn into another pointless arguement like the fountain definition one.

I don't really know why it gets to me so much when people use a different waist wrap definition to the one I use - I don't really care when it happens for any other moves.
*shrug* As I said in the crosser thread, it's just one of my pet hates.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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mtbeer
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

mtbeer

ARRRR!
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Total posts: 529
Posted:Gyration Obfuscation - The more flaky terms we have the easier it will be to keep newbies in the dark. wink

"My skin is singed but it heals my heart and with glowing pride I'll wear my scars." -Davey Havok

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol, New Zealand

Total posts: 493
Posted:I was always under the impression that a waistwrap has a carry while a weave doesn't...

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Mags The Jedi
GOLD Member since May 2004

Mags The Jedi

Fool
Location: Cornwall, UK

Total posts: 2020
Posted:Written by: Richee


Waist Wrap
From Wikipoidia




Wikipoidia? Aaaaahahahahaaahaha! ubblol biggrin ubblol ubbrollsmile

devil


"I believe the cost of life is Death and we will all pay that in full. Everything else should be a gift. We paid the cover charge of life, we were born."

Bill Hicks, February 1988

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Mags The Jedi:

"Encyclopoidia Omnimodus"

http://www.spherculism.com/wiki
br>
Waist wraps:
http://www.spherculism.com/wiki/index.php?title=Waist_Wrap
br> http://www.semlyen.net/cosmosjugglers/lib/lesson17.pdf
br>
Do you read books? smile

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:well, for what its worth, i'm with bov here smile

the name waistwrap suggests a carry to me and it is the same thing as a 'lower fountain'.

the connection between a 'btb ww' and a 'btb wallplane weave' is that a btb ww is a fwd to reverse btb wallplane weave with an even number of beats (hence it has a carry).

i don't like using the waistwrap term to describe the btb wallplane hand position because it completely ignores the fact that front waistwraps exist shrug

i think the wiki might be wrong - are there not 4 full waistwrap's or has my combinatorial maths gone on the blink today...?

incidentally, i sorted another full ww and learnt arashi's split-time bf btb mirror ww this weekend ubbrollsmile


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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