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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:When do you think political correctness or these new no tolerance laws cross the line and go too far?------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Posted:What new no tolerance laws?Personally I think Politcal correctness goes to far when it causes more harm than good.Josh

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Because of political correctness and fear of in school violence alot of schools and cities here are passing no tolerance laws/rules which are centered around group activities (here no more than 3 kids can be in one area skateboarding because more than that will lead to a violent outbreak and frightens passersby), clothing (kids are being suspended for wearing concert t-shirts), music can no longer be played in our schools because most is of an offensive or questionable nature, and language....Let me explain where my question comes from. My son is six and in kindergarden (I think equivalent to level one). The school is threatening to suspend him because he said "Shoot" when he dropped something or whatever. They said this intimates violence. My son said "Wazzup" to a girl in his class who misheard and thought he said "It sucks" so she got upset. Then, I love this one, he says "Oh my gosh", "Darn" and "Heck" when he is frusterated or excited and a couple of the kids in his class don't use 'that language' and so Noah is being suspended the next time he uses it..in kindergarden!!!!!No, if he were dropping the f-bomb or somehting then I could understand but "Shoot" and "Gosh"? I am beside myself with fury. This could really have an effect on him, since it will be marked on his school folder he will be branded a trouble maker so young, which is not good. Noah is a good boy. When he was being beaten up in school a few weeks ago he didn't even defend himself because he didn't want to hurt the two boys (the are a bit smaller than him) and he didn't know what else to do. He isn't violent, he is no more disrespectful than any other 6 year old testing his boundaries..though new policy in his school (From some violence training course) is that if a child rolls their eyes when being spoken to it leads to violent behaviour!!! Ludicrous! Noah is the top student in his class and is very bright and creative, which I was informed also leads to violence because he finishes his work too easily and quickly then leaving him time in his own imagination to think of violent things.What the hell is wrong with people!!!???????I want my son to be able to express himself freely and not be all pent up since that does lead to violence.I think that political correctness and the new tolerance laws go way too far. I always have. When kids are being kicked out of school for drawing pictures of guns and my best friend (who is from Martinique, and island in the West Indies) gets offended because she found out she got a job based on her minority status as a woman and an "African American" (which she is not and hates being called), not on her skill (which she does have), it has gone too far.<tyraid over>[This message has been edited by Pele (edited 31 March 2001).]

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Superman
BRONZE Member since Mar 2001

Superman

member
Location: Houston, Texas, USA

Total posts: 829
Posted:did you hear about the 6 yr old kid that brought a G.I. Joe to school, and the figure had his weapon, which wasa gun. The gun is the size of what, our fingernail?? And because of Zero Tolerance, they suspended the child for the remainder of the semester.That happened a few yrs ago. More recently, i saw on the news about another elementary school child that accidently given his dad's lunch bag instead of his in morning before school. When lunch time came, he had pork chops, and a steak knife & a fork for eating them. He knowing they arent suspose to have knives in school, takes it to his teacher immediately. The teacher flips, takes him to the office, and again another innocent "child" is suspended for breaking the zero tolerance law in school.Are things getting ridiculous??? i would say...Fucking Hell yeah they are getting ridiculous!!!!I cant get into the racism debate..that issue erks me more than any..Me bieng the ONLY white kid in my neighborhood, resulted me getting my ass kicked at least once a week for almost a wear solid. This started when i was about 12. It finally got better because i made friends, but there were still people that would start shit because i was the "white bitch" in the neighborhood. So i would be a little disensitized when a teenager would have a problem with me becuae their great great grandfather, whom he has never seen, probably doesnt even know his name, was a slave. But then trying to talk to me like i am responsible!! Fuck that. yes its wrong. Should it have happened? NO. Do i wish i could change it? Yes i do..but guess what? Thats why it is called history, it cannot be changed in the past. You change it by doing things different in the present. Not adding to it with ignorance. I came to realize though, its not the childrens fault. Becuase it is the parents that have filled their head with hate, BUT they do have more right to do so, because they lived through the segregation, and the unequal treatment. I respect an old African American man that experienced that, and has a grudge, but dont pass the hate on to your children. My God, how can anything be corrected like that??And besides...Europeans did go to Africa to specifically for slaves..They were sold and traded to them by tribes who had conquered weaker ones..That was a fact taught to me by my African American history professor in my first year of college...It takes two types of people to be racist. The person throwing the slurrs, and the person that is offended by them. Also todays government is very much to blame forany racism that is going on. Why are groups like skinheads, and KKK even able to congrigate? How can they organize mass groups of people for the soul purpose of hatred?? AARRRRGGGhhhh..the whole thng pisses me off.But im not going to get into it. everyone should just twirl, and there wouldnt be aproblem. POI is the secret to world peace..
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Super'------------------"Only the warrior that hears the call will know when to leave, Where to go" -unknown


Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear--not absence of fear.


- Mark Twain

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psychomonkey


member
Location: Kansas City, MO USA

Total posts: 148
Posted:"Everyone has a right to free speech even if they're wrong" -Billboard next to KKK adopt a highway sign here in Missouri.-PSM

One can only see what one observes, and one observes only things which are already in the mind.-Alphonse Bertillon

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Finn


member
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 341
Posted:Pele,You're right, the situation Noah is in IS ludicrous. I don't know what else to say... I find it very difficult to believe that so called 'educated people' can be so naive.I'm glad I live in Australia.We have experienced a bit of a backlash against political correctness over the last couple of years here. Zero tolerance laws have however been introduced in some states with disastrous consequences for many people, in particular indigenous Australians.The whole thing stinks.I hope that things work out for Noah.
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[This message has been edited by Finn (edited 31 March 2001).]


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adrian


member
Location: sydney

Total posts: 58
Posted:i reely am not sure what to say pele besides im dumfounded that a school can be so totalitarian that it takes away the right to imagin. here in australia we dont have anything as bad as that. what ever happened to the right for individuality.whats happening to that school that noah goes too sounds...im gunna be honest here...scarry, it sounds like the beginnings of another nazi party. i could be going overboard here but thats my first impression.if a child isnt alloud to say shoot. whats are they suposed to say??? oopsy dasye fiddildey di dee i dropes my pencil wencil???thats crazy.im carrying on again, ill stop with my oppinions again..i hope all works out well for noah tho.keep up the flameadrian.------------------ladies and gentelmen take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice...

ladies and gentelmen take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice...

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Hapes-Nova


member
Location: Albany, New York, USA

Total posts: 60
Posted:man, thats really terrible. i knew that these gun and violence issues had grown, but i had no idea that they were to the extent that you have talked about. my school takes this stuff pretty seriously, but i doubt they would go as far as Noah's school. anyway, all this talk has got me thinking, mainly because i draw guns all the time in school, but im by no means some kind of twisted killer or anything, i just like drawing them. hmmm....Hapes-Nova, non-violent glowsticker

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jessejames


member
Location: kingston ontario canada

Total posts: 22
Posted:wow im at this site for twenty minutes and ive stayed totaly off topic the whole timemabye it is my instintict to check out peles postings firstthanks alot pele you are always a source off great disicion topicsnowi was lucky to be raised almost competely without formal education and the two brief years that i did spend there grades 8 and 9 seemed like the most controled manipulative enviroment that i could imagineand now at this point in my life know an equal number of unschooled folk and those that spent their formitives in public school i notice one major diffrence and that is the the percentage of folks who didnt go to school whom are living living their lives on their own terms ie: happily in whatever their pursuits are large or smallis much higher than those who spent fifteen years or more of their lives getting "educated"a favrite quote of mine comes from deschooling advocate john gatto :"learning is not a product of teaching"for any of you who have children in the public school system and are feelin unpleased with the way it raises your childreni highly suggest reading the works ofjohn gattograce llywenmatt hernivan illichall these folks have great stuff to say even if your not involved in the public "education" systemagain this is one of my passion points so forgive the rantso longjessejames

burnin down the house

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emptyset


member
Location: Albany, NY United States of Am...

Total posts: 98
Posted:it becomes to much when no tolerance and politacal correctness leads to censorship

Its all in good, clean, light producing fun.

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ykaterina
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

member
Location: east randolph, VT USA

Total posts: 107
Posted:well, it's a pretty radical answer, but faced with this problem, i've chosen homeschooling. though i don't actually have kids yet, we're getting ready, and there's no question at all what our choice is. i've already changed my job to accomodate homeschooling (i'm a programmer, and i now work full time from home), and we're building a library in our house for study. every month we buy a couple of books that we think our kids should read, and we're starting to journal and collect other materials that we'll need. for me, it won't be so tough, because i've been a teacher in the past. but it's starting to be a real option for all parents now that there's internet schooling programs for subjects parents might not be good at, and so many community programs (soccer, karate, etc) for kids to get their social training from. it doesn't help his teachers, but i don't actually believe there's hope for them [as a group]. it would help him. if you can't go that route, then perhaps it would work to have a chat with the teachers/administration? it's not likely that they'll budge, but you just might be able to get through to the human inside them who also says "shoot" and "darn"...teachers today are scared, and they're being fed fear from the administration and the religious right/conservatives through the media. everything is being spun to seem terrorizing and sensationalist. the facts of the matter are that this stuff - violence in our schools - has been around forever, and though getting parents riled up and instituting zero-tolerance may get people to vote in a certain way (without realizing that they're being manipulated), it's NOT going to stop the problem. listening to our children is the only way to stop the problem, and i don't beleive the school systems are prepared to do that.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:The school principal, who handed down this decision is currently avoiding me like the plague, as my family has faught the school system here before, both my parents on my behalf and myself as a student. Now it seems to have come full circle again. I am instead going to the school board meeting this Thursday night, and I will continue to go up the ladder. Do I hope to change anything? Nope. But I still intend on being heard. I don't think the school rules have any business superceeding those here at home that I set, and feel are fully socially acceptable.As for homeschooling. Noah's teacher this year will be his teacher in 1st grade next year. I have spoken to him already about our impending travels with the faires and such. He is going to give me the curriculum and I will administer it. I like Noah's teacher, he is as much a victim of the machine as anyone, and I know that because I have been in that position, which is why I am no longer a teacher. In the end my child will have his freedom and his creativity will not be stifled, one way or another.What a sad statement on society and what a firghtening prospect for those parents who can not home school that this is what the "Land of the Free" has come down to.Thanks for all the feedback.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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s-p-l-a-t


member
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia

Total posts: 383
Posted:That's very scary, that they've gone that far. But it seems things over there haven't been going real smooth for a while eh? I keep seeing things like 13 year old killers and "12 ppl murdered in a middleschool shooting". Guns are just way too accessable in America. Not that they aren't here as well - we just don't have the masses that America does (yet
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)I don't believe homeschooling is the answer for most - I believe that a lot of confidence and life experience can be obtained from peer groups. It simply wouldn't be ideal for every second parent to homeschool - particularly outback rural towns cause those kids enjoy seeing other kids every day. (naturally).It seems this Zero Tolerance thing is almost on a par with having a Nuclear World Monitoring device - bloody outrageous and ridiculous. The second sends shivers down my spine.


The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

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Frenzie
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

member
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 515
Posted:I agree that home school may not be for everyone, but im becoming more and more single minded that should i ever (for some unknown reason) have children i WILL NOT be sending them to schools as they stand now.Teachers are neither paid enough nor in a lot of cases care enough to take responsibility for the children in their care 8 hours a day.They are quick to blame parenting, but when it comes down to it, they spend more of their waking lives at school being influenced by children around them and teachers than their parents. I know when i was at school most everything naughty i picked up was through school, or my brothers, which they picked up through school.The structure of learning at schools is also ridged, some kids are academic, some are athletic and some are just slower than others, kids need to be treated differently in the learning process and this is something that school cannot offer due to financial reasons, they can cant provide one student one teacher.On the downside is the lack of interaction with other students and play time, but i think if the effort is made to take your child to sporting facilities, outings, bbqs, picnics, workshops taking your child into the real world and meeting real people they are going to come out more well rounded than a child sheltered at school having everything handed to them on a plate.I really admire a couple of our friends Toby and Elaine for their approach to their baby boy Jali (excuse if i spelt wrong guys). They have sold their tv and hope to be travelling by the time he is school age. In this day with the internet and availability of schooling by correspondence there is no reason he could not receive an adequate education through his own experiences as well as academic knowledge.Elaine has also stated that if at any stage Jali requests to go to school, he will be quite welcome to go and try it out. Not saying that you are not a great mother Pele, as you seem to be an incredibly wonderful person!, but as lot of parents these days do not take full responsibility of their childs up bringing and rely on tv as a babysitter and school as "quiet relief".*sigh* well thats my 2 cents on the subject.I know it doesnt solve your problem Pele and you are going to have to make some very important decisions regarding your sons future.I too and glad that i live in Australia and we dont have the same restrictions placed on our kids, though there are a lot of things similar, 3 or more is considered a group and can legally be displaced by police, even if no trouble is in site, they can still have you moved on.......

- Industrial design knows of no article more useful than the milk crate -

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flash fire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2758
Posted:when I was 16, I made the decision that I would be sending my children to a Rudolf Steiner (spelling) school initially, then providing them with the option to choose their own school for their final years, be that a performing arts school, academically brilliant private school etc.I'm still of this opinion.If I can provide a "wholesome" and "stable" upbringing for my offspring, then the school they go to will really be incidental.

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Posted:All I have to say on this topic, is beware the media.You see the pictures of other countries, and you believe that that is the way it is there? It is NOT.The only way to know what its like to live in another place is to go there, and live there. and even then, you will still be an outsider for a very long time.Having said that; Pele, we have lots and lots of nice beaches here. and you will get sick of the amount of space between towns in the majority of the country
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we even have a disfunctional PM, but he's pretty harmless...I'm sure your skills would be welcome here, but I'm not too sure about making a full time wage out of it...So - there is always an option..Josh


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s-p-l-a-t


member
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia

Total posts: 383
Posted:hmmm....Frenzie you say they (police) can move you on if you're in a group and not doing anything that is troublesome? What time of day are you saying it's okay for them to do this at?Is it different down there than up here? It is illegal for police to move a group of people for no reason (e.g. they are standing in a suburban street are reasonably dressed and don't stink of alcohol) for example at 9pm. This happened to someone I know just recently and she filed a complaint the next day (she refused to move, then demanded to be arrested if she had to move.)Subsequently - none of them got arrested and the complaint went in.

The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

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Thistle


Thistle

old hand
Location: Nottingham UK

Total posts: 950
Posted:I dont know about the laws you mention, but i have a daughter of secondary school age in England. I find it increasingly difficult to support her school in their seemingly senseless rules and regulations. I think that schools go way to far on diciplining what the kids are allowed to say/do/wear while on school premises and they do not seem to make provisions for *alternative* cultural diversity and individualism.Trying to control the speach of Noah is an example of how the society we live in is geared towards making us all the same with no room for free thought and individuality. By making children stick to senseless rules makes them into *good little robots* who are used to blindly obeying any1 in authority so as adults they will be easier to control and fit into the mainstream society.While i want my child to be able to fit into mainstream if she so desires, i want very much for her to have the freedom to live her life any way she chooses. This, however, is becoming less likely as there are so many rules that take away our freedom and more new laws being passed all the time to prevent the freedom to be anything other than *normal*.I say it sucks to pass laws governing the freedom of speach of children. The geneva covention of human rights probably has a law saying that type of biggotry is illegal anyway, but i don't actually no for sure.I hope Noah comes out of this unscathed and is not made to feel inadequate because of his terminology, after all it is only words out of the mouths of babes.Onelove, Thistlefirepixie
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Are we nearly there yet?

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Frenzie
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

member
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 515
Posted:Well i dont really know if its legal or illegal, but one night 4 of us in a park on swings in cronulla were asked to move on. Have seen it in practise many a times not just on myself. 3 or more is considered the startings of trouble. ...Skating is not permited anywhere, ramps and bowls have been removed because they "attrcat" trouble....yeah right on, now the kids do have no where to go, get bored and cause trouble!

- Industrial design knows of no article more useful than the milk crate -

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fireboy


An angry young man with a passon for metal
Location: Wagga Wagga, N.S.W, Australia

Total posts: 252
Posted:what the F*** if use that at my skool I'd get Detention. What kinda sick bastards are they to suspend a 6 YEAR OLD ?The teachers sould be glad he is using words with no anger of profanity...so your son dose he know what is goin on?in Australiaa child has the right to bring a toy to school ( like a crappy G.I Joe doll with the small unREALAISTIC weapon)A child is Child and thats what i know, the small little buggars are innosent untill they reach grade 5/6then ths school board has some thing to BITCH ABOUT.if it was my child id' tell them to go JUMPcause if they have nuthin better to do than pick on a child I"D SAY BRING IT ONfireboyP.s Tell them go Fuck yourself to that TEACHER/s

Fireboy

<<SINister miNISister>>
remeber kids jesus slaves

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