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Puk
Puk

Sweet talented nutter
Location: Brisbane Oz
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2002
Total posts: 2615
Posted:See here

www.actu.asn/au/work_rights/



Please be aware of this it will affect everybody in australia .

EDITED_BY: Puk (1120197284)


that shrewd and knavish sprite

Called Robin Good Fellow ; are you not he that is frighten of the maidens of the villagery - fairy

I am the merry wander of the night -puk

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Puk
Puk

Sweet talented nutter
Location: Brisbane Oz
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2002
Total posts: 2615
Posted:What i find really dissapointing is how a lot of people put their head in the sand about the whole thing .

to Quote a lot of people "it won't affect me "
I wish they'd wake up and smell the coffee .

Like the add said

I can't work that night i've got to look after the kids

"thats all right the guy over there will "

If we're not care full we'll end up like new zealand Ir rules


that shrewd and knavish sprite

Called Robin Good Fellow ; are you not he that is frighten of the maidens of the villagery - fairy

I am the merry wander of the night -puk

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Philomel
member
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 1st Nov 2005
Total posts: 39
Posted:In the short-term, a lot of people probably won't be affected by the IR laws. But the thing is, the IR laws are long-term laws that every worker will be affected by in the long run.

Howard wouldn't be able to get away with it if everyone's wages suddenly dropped as soon as the legislation is passed! So it's true that some people may not be affected by it immediately, but they certainly will in a few years' time.

A lot of young workers who have casual positions in places like Safeway, etc. will feel the effects immediately. Those kind of workplaces are the ones with less than 100 employees, which means the bosses will be exempt from unfair dismissal laws.


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SmOf
SmOf

member
Location: Canberra
Member Since: 27th Sep 2005
Total posts: 51
Posted:Ive never met anyone who's voted for John Howard ever...im my entire life...

and for my entire life, he's been Prime Minister

odd no?


Perfectly insane O.o

>>lover of chocolate biscuits<<

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:not really, would you vote for john howard? chances are if you dont vote for howard your more likely to hang with other people who wouldnt vote for him. i dont know many people who would vote for john howard, but the few that i can think of i dont really like anayway. here we see some clashing of idiologies

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:ummi know plenty who voted for john howard - it depends which circles you mingle in. If you are in part of any of the following areas - the left wingh/hippie/spinner/juggler/student/traveller/part-timer-doofer/queer/non mainstream world that many on this board are in, its unlikely you do know anyone who votes for Johnny.. But there are many out there who do. Consider the following type of people.

- wealthy yuppie types who earn reasonable amounts of cash, drive BMWs, enjoy their money and want to keep in the money. They may work for large or small companies, but have a strong faith in capitalistic economics.

- Persons of strong religious convictions that support Johnny's so called 'family value' and generally white male christian view of the world

- The tasmanian timber workers - one thing i will say about Johnny is that he is a very astute politician. He used Lathams pro-greenie save the trees stand to get the roaring support of the timber workers. I never though id see the day when a staunchly left wing union gave Johnny a roaring ovation of support - but it happened (the fact that Johnnys actual policy was particularly insubstantial was irrelevant - he played the crowd on the day - and got some extra votes).

- My parents. They are not 'upper class' or anything. my old man worked his way up from being a pennyless graduate to senior management by sheer hard work - and his life has been influenced by that capitalistic streak - those who work hard deserve to get the rewards, and business is good for the economy and workers. i dont alway agree with him on any number of issues, but i understand his perspective.

- Consider the Nationals - who get most of their votes and support from the country areas. we dont get much exposure to them in the cities - but they do hold a reasonable chunk of the coalition seats. although i have met some beautiful wonderful friends who live on farms in outlying areas of south western NSW, the majority of the population in country areas are more conservative, more white, more disinclined to support immigration, less tolerant of minority groups etc.

- my second last catagory is anyone who wants a strong leader and a relatively united party in power. Whats your two party preferred vote? on one hand, i disagree with Johnny about many things, but on the other hand do we want 'third time lucky' Kim Beazley and a party with constant internal factional infighting?

- and finally the average worker. We must remember that Howard had none of his policies out when the last election came around. Employment is extremely low, interest rates are pretty good, and the economy, according to vastly more intelligent people who understand such things, is in good shape.

Now as an idealistic single man of 23 with a pretty good salary, Johnny's personal ethics make him someone i would never vote for.

However if i was the sole financial source of income to my wife and 4 kids while paying off a mortgage, all the while dreaming of my Holden Crewman Ute with every possible option for when i have my midlife crisis - I think in that situation my political leaning would be infinitely more conservative than now - because i would be far more interested in interest rates, employment rates, current account deficit or whatever it is, etc etc etc. talking to some Fitters on site (guys who do welding & machining work on a factory) - who are generally beerguted VB drinking union support crusty old bastards - they see a bunch of non-working hippy queer students protesting about god knows what in some major city miles away, and their conservative values are reinforced.. These guys have their job, mortgage, HSV, and retirement house on the sunshine coast they all want - and that comes from stabity of your job and workplace. they believe in a strong and fair union presence in the workplace - but understand their fortunes are directly affected by the economic performance of the company they work for.

________________________________



I suppore ive play devils advocate a fair bit here. I personally did not vote for Johnny. As a matter of fact i filled out every one of those 168 odd boxes for the senate for the explicit purpose of putting Fred Nile last, and the liberals down at the 120 or so mark.



but i do understand the many different types of people out their- i dislike Howard but he always manages to have this fresh face at election time to appeal to the swinging voters - before launching his actual policies and plans sometime after he's been re-elected.

anyway rant over. i cant be bothered going over and editing it so ill probably change it tomorrow morning. G'night,.


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Philomel
member
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 1st Nov 2005
Total posts: 39
Posted:Written by: Dentrassi


Employment is extremely low, interest rates are pretty good, and the economy, according to vastly more intelligent people who understand such things, is in good shape.







Whenever you hear some 'vastly more intelligent' politician talking about how "shares are going up" and "the economy is going well" - really, what they are saying is only relevant to themselves and their mates. It is the ruling class who control all the wealth and gain all the profits, not the average worker.



When you think about it, unemployment rates are actually quite high, but we have been conditioned under capitalism to think that 4-5% unemployment is acceptable.



Besides, do you really think the average worker gives much of a stuff about the status of the 'Australian economy'? People are mainly concerned with their immediate material conditions - such as how they are treated in their workplace and how comfortable their lifestyle is.



Written by: Dentrassi


However if i was the sole financial source of income to my wife and 4 kids while paying off a mortgage, all the while dreaming of my Holden Crewman Ute with every possible option for when i have my midlife crisis - I think in that situation my political leaning would be infinitely more conservative than now - because i would be far more interested in interest rates, employment rates, current account deficit or whatever it is, etc etc etc.







That's quite ironic considering Howard is currently on a rampage trying to slash your rights at work, lower your wages and hurt your family.



Written by: Dentrassi


talking to some Fitters on site (guys who do welding & machining work on a factory) - who are generally beerguted VB drinking union support crusty old bastards - they see a bunch of non-working hippy queer students protesting about god knows what in some major city miles away, and their conservative values are reinforced.. These guys have their job, mortgage, HSV, and retirement house on the sunshine coast they all want - and that comes from stabity of your job and workplace. they believe in a strong and fair union presence in the workplace - but understand their fortunes are directly affected by the economic performance of the company they work for.







How exactly do people think students pay their way through uni? Most students work in part-time/casual positions whilst they are studying so they can pay for textbooks, rent, etc. And a lot of these students are also in trade unions. Students are just as entitled as full-time workers to go out on protest against the IR laws because they are fighting against something that will directly affect them in the future. Like I said in a previous post, the IR laws will hit workplaces with lots of casuals and young people (like Safeway) immediately. Also, the arguments against the IR reforms are similar those against Voluntary Student Unionism, - it's about preserving our right to politically organise - so workers and students should be showing solidarity in all of these struggles against Howard. There's no need for the long-time unionists to be so goddamn condescending towards younger workers.



Written by: Dentrassi


Howard but he always manages to have this fresh face at election time to appeal to the swinging voters - before launching his actual policies and plans sometime after he's been re-elected.







Well, yeah. Blatant political dishonesty is the only way that the Liberals can win because otherwise no one would vote for them, heh.


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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:mate, the point of my post was to answer the point raised that who actually voted for Howard in the last election. not why howard is an idiot for the changes hes proposing to make to a vast sweeping section of our society now - because that makes most of my points pointless because we know now what Johnny's agenda is.

but for the purposes of continuing a lively debate and because after 4 glass of red wine im feeling philiosophical and devils advocatish....

Written by:
Besides, do you really think the average worker gives much of a stuff about the status of the 'Australian economy'? People are mainly concerned with their immediate material conditions - such as how they are treated in their workplace and how comfortable their lifestyle is.



um... what is an average worker? im probably in the average worker class. In part yes i do care about the economy, because i recognize that the enjoyment of my workplace and comfort of my lifestyle is directly affected by the success of the small firm i work for. the better my company performs - the better rewards i get for my work, the better the atmosphere at work... and the more juggling toys i can buy, and the more likely i will be able to afford to go to both rainbow serpent and uberoz in february next yeae.
but am i the exception in here? upon relection its very easy to think of oneself as an average worker, and asume others think the same way - although im aware thats not the case...(this probably borderlines on the philosophical discussion of what is an average worker - so i might just leave that there an start another thread.)

Looking at employment rates around the world - i was under the impression that 5.1% unemployment or whatever is it now was pretty good???

To comments about IR reforms philomei, refer to the top of this post, and regarding the comments about VSU, your preaching to the converted smile

Written by:

Well, yeah. Blatant political dishonesty is the only way that the Liberals can win because otherwise no one would vote for them, heh.



as sad and cynical as it is, i think that most of the major poitical parties are too caught up in political manouvering and 'spin' aka dishonesty. is there anyone we can trust anymore??

anyway in lighter news the coalition is now behind in the two party preferred poll for the first time in a while.

Peace, love & hugs to all peace ubblove hug


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:by the way, the Unemployment levels consider any person who does one hour of work per week to be employed, which means people can be employed but still be living in poverty. this is what i am worried about, if people work with minimum pay or in casual and part time positions they will still be considered employed, but their lives will be shite, which i dont think is a good thing for the society. This might not happen, but the laws certainly give the possiblitiy for it to be happening in ten or twenty years, when its to late to fix them.

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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The_Magnesium_Master
journeyman
Location: Brisbane, Queensland,
Member Since: 24th Sep 2005
Total posts: 97
Posted:Myself and many of my associates must belong to a very small group of people that can think for themselves. The only thing in common was that we all voted for the parties we thought were the least objectionable, not the ones we thought were going to actually be good. Whoever supports families, looks after the planet, plans long term and doesnt ignore peak oil, looks after the econnomy and rids the steets of scum at the one time would get my vote. Why is it that nobody can even state this as their aim, let alone acheive this, not even independent parties like the greens, one nation or family first. I voted for the greens in the senete and one nation aswell, because if these parties agree then an issue must be important, if they argue at least nothing bad gets done untill someone better comes along and hopefully does the right thing.



By the way, I know many young people who used to vote for

George Bush, sorry George Howard, or was that John Bush.



They have secure well paid jobs but dont own their own homes.This time they are all voting labor becuase the want high interest rates and a stuffed econnomy. They cant buy a house even on a good wage and will vote for whoever will CAUSE economic collapse, not prevent it, as they will keep their jobs while those with big debts are forced to sell houses cheaply.


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tillymoo
tillymoo

member
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 26th Sep 2005
Total posts: 107
Posted:having grown up in a very political household (my father has run for local council and the federal senate) i think i have an unhealthy level of cynicism when it comes to polititians and their ways (john howards 'core and non-core promises' anyone??) but even i am having trouble trying to work out if the IR laws were introduced at this time to distract us from the anti-terror legislation, or the other way around? either way it's f**ked mad2

so what to do? i say install Peter Garrett as leader of the opposition in a hurry mainly so at the next election during one of their debates we can play the quote of john howard on radio during the last election saying "well i rather like 'Beds are Burning'" i know australian politics isn't there for my sole amusement, but..... clap

conversly to what most of australia seems to have done, i have friends who are in their late 70's, live in toorak and have voted liberal their whole life who decided not to vote for them in the last election, because they said john howard is a 'lying rat'. that gave me a moments hope.



Written by: Dentrassi

to my wife and 4 kids while paying off a mortgage, all the while dreaming of my Holden Crewman Ute with every possible option for when i have my midlife crisis



WHAT????? WIFE??? confused i bet she doesn't bring you beer in the pool and perve on patrick swayze with you ubblove


"A Thnead's a fine thing that all people need"
Dr Suess

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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:ha ubblol

if Peter Garrett became PM we would have to enforce the teaching of the Peter Garrett dance in primary schools across the country.


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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tillymoo
tillymoo

member
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 26th Sep 2005
Total posts: 107
Posted:Written by: Dentrassi

if Peter Garrett became PM we would have to enforce the teaching of the Peter Garrett dance in primary schools across the country.



well it's got to be better than bush dancing which i learnt in priamry school!


"A Thnead's a fine thing that all people need"
Dr Suess

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Watch out ABC, there goes democracy

I wonder if Howards new sedition laws were originally cooked up to silence Australia's public broadcaster from speaking out against poor government.


Hmmmm.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:did you know of all media outlets, triple j is the most mentioned in federal parliment? its true though, if the sedition laws go thorugh doesnt that mean potentially we wont even be able to criticise the government? F**king politicians! i mean, the laws they create will never be imposed upon them because they already have an abundance of power, so how can they think it will be good for other people who it could be imposed on?

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Is that true about Triple J? What kind of context does it come up in? Do you have any examples?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Philomel
member
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 1st Nov 2005
Total posts: 39
Posted:Written by: The_Magnesium_Master

Whoever supports families, looks after the planet, plans long term and doesnt ignore peak oil, looks after the econnomy and rids the steets of scum at the one time would get my vote. Why is it that nobody can even state this as their aim, let alone acheive this, not even independent parties like the greens, one nation or family first.




It's because all of these parties and politicians who run for Parliament are trying to work within the capitalist system and their overall aim is to eventually run it. Whoever ends up winning government is not very interested in supporting families or looking after the planet - they are more interested in maximising profits for themselves. A good example is the ALP (traditionally the party of the workers) which never fails to let us down. The ALP is just as right-wing as the Liberal Party - they're eagerly lining up to send more troops off to war and have backflipped on opposing VSU in the Senate.

Written by: tillymoo

so what to do? i say install Peter Garrett as leader of the opposition in a hurry




Peter Garrett used to be a radical left-wing activist. Ever since he joined the ALP, one by one he has had to compromise his former radical views. I don't see how millionaire rock star can relate to the working class. Anyway, my point is that Labor is just as bad as the Liberals and, at the end of the day, they want to run the same system that is screwing people and the planet over in the name of profit.

Written by: Mr Majestik

its true though, if the sedition laws go thorugh doesnt that mean potentially we wont even be able to criticise the government?




Yeah, under the sedition laws, this thread is illegal, and we could all be arrested for identifying with anti-government sentiment.

Written by: Mr Majestik

F**king politicians! i mean, the laws they create will never be imposed upon them because they already have an abundance of power, so how can they think it will be good for other people who it could be imposed on?




This is so true. The police harrass ordinary people like you and me over things like shoplifting or drugs or whatever (things that are a direct product of our alienation and isolation within the system), yet corporate criminals get away with it. Steve Vizard still lives in a mansion in Toorak. We are always told that cops are there to protect ordinary people from crime and maintain order, but cops are really just there to protect the system and the wealth for the guys at the top. They are the physical force that is used to back up the ruling class' ideological control.


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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:Written by:

Peter Garrett used to be a radical left-wing activist. Ever since he joined the ALP, one by one he has had to compromise his former radical views. I don't see how millionaire rock star can relate to the working class



huh? arent left wingers allowed to be successful to?


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Puk
Puk

Sweet talented nutter
Location: Brisbane Oz
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2002
Total posts: 2615
Posted:I was just on the phone to a ex workmate and he was telling me that the company gone to A.W.A contracts that will be rated by performance as judged by the forman which means if he thinks your done a bad job or taken to long (which is to be judge buy your forman (that would change to from forman to forman)) your rating will go down .

But if your like a guy that he like's (in my exforman's if your a workmate that always drinks with him that sort of stuff) you'll get a higher rateing (it's not a equal system).

Now the foreman that i used to work under would be unfair and would expect just to do a

Quick and Rough job Which encourage's bad tradesmanship.

and secondaly if you refuse to do a job cause of saftey you can get the D.C.M.
They use to try to get tradesman use unsafe ladders etc

Im really apprecitate everybody's veiws and thought's so far.

As dentrassi pointed out one problem is that John Howard is the best of what we have .

Sure he's a bit of a snake but he dosn't deny such things.

I Don't see how we could compete with the chinese as well.

And a nother thing that has developed (trade wise ) is that the goverment has made a task force (basically like the gaspio (sp)).

They can come in to any site and go ask you all sorts of questions if you don't answer them or lying cause you didn't want them to know something about the union's .

Off to jail
Is that fair .
I really hate these new adds trying to make Ir sound like it's a great system .

For example if you don't sign a awa and want a eba you can go to court .

The problem is there is that it's federal court i can't afford $30,000 a day .

Well thats my rant for the moment.


that shrewd and knavish sprite

Called Robin Good Fellow ; are you not he that is frighten of the maidens of the villagery - fairy

I am the merry wander of the night -puk

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Philomel
member
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 1st Nov 2005
Total posts: 39
Posted:Written by: Dentrassi

huh? arent left wingers allowed to be successful to?



Of course left-wingers are "allowed" to be successful - but Peter Garrett has literally sold out and turned his back on his former radical views. My point was that the ALP is just as right-wing as the Liberal Party, so we shouldn't be waiting for them to win at the next federal election, nor rely on them to actually do anything to oppose the Howard Government agenda because they are just as bad. It was only when Peter Garrett joined the ALP that his views started moving away from the left - and that's because the ALP is a group of reformists, not revolutionaries.

Also, Australian workers have more in common with workers in Spain or China or wherever than they do with people like Peter Garrett and John Howard. We elect those people to Parliament, but do they adequately represent us? Not really, because they are all wealthy members of the ruling class and therefore have different interests to us 'average workers'.

You can't change the world via Parliament, heh. In order to actually reform this system, we need more mass action like the strikes against the IR laws.


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tillymoo
tillymoo

member
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 26th Sep 2005
Total posts: 107
Posted:Written by: Dentrassi


Written by: Philomel

Peter Garrett used to be a radical left-wing activist. Ever since he joined the ALP, one by one he has had to compromise his former radical views. I don't see how millionaire rock star can relate to the working class





huh? arent left wingers allowed to be successful to?





unfortunatly in the ALP, they are not. the right holds the power and the only way of becoming the leader is to be a member of that faction. the left usually gets the deputy leaders position, which means we have a chance of Julia Gillard as deputy smile



a journalist made a comment to malcolm fraser (liberal primeminister in the mid 70's for those much younger than me) that he seemed to have mooved further to the left. his response was that in fact his stance on most issue had stayed the same, but the major political parties had mooved further to the right

EDITED_BY: tillymoo (1133738051)


"A Thnead's a fine thing that all people need"
Dr Suess

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:That's really interesting about Fraser. And a pity that the party he knew he now no-longer recognises to the point where he would even leave it.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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