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Page: 123
Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Okay...so.
Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes both have movies coming out and are supposed to be promoting them. Instead they are promoting their relationship and their religion...Scientology.

Now, I had read about it about 10 years ago when the huge push on the books "Dianetics" happened and it seemed, well, suspicious.
I went to the website for Scientology and instead of really talking about its principles all it says is "Buy the books!"
I found this quite thwarting, and tinked off my suspicions even further.

So then I looked it up here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology
br>
And holy crap!
Now...sure I can understand the reincarnation bits...but the extraterrestrial tyrant Xenu stacking millions of frozen people at the base of an errupting volcano I have some difficulty swallowing.

I know L. Ron Hubbard (creator) was a sci-fiction writer, and that he came under alot of fire for creating this "religion".

Some of the concepts are interesting. It is completely against psychia/ologies, and their drugs, and claims that they are repressors of our past traumas..past meaning before birth in this life.
And that reaching a certain level of Scientology (which will cost you $360,000 apparently) will also help you to unlock your superhuman powers to control time, matter, energy and space.

So...um...what do you think about this "religion"?


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


Icer
Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:Shamans Crossing? is that still in the same series (world) as the farseer trilogy and and the other series that she has writen?

i agree with sethis too, about the way some authors can put real world situations in different contexts but still make really valid thoughtful points. i love your sig too, sethis. i thin druss is prolly my fav character of gemmel's although i havnt read all hiss books yet.
and im not even going to try and say something 'on-topic'. biggrin


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.


Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Written by: Sethis

And since that quote is always taken out of context, I wonder if anyone knows what the rest of the paragraph says? wink





Technically, it is...

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."


I can agree with that, and I can see where people would create, or in the case of scientology, to fill that. I simply object to the consumeristic and absolutionist approach. At least the pentacostal church still allows my sister to speak to me (not a good thing really, but my point is, it's allowed).

So...moving on to what inspired this thread in the first place, War of the Worlds. I saw it. I didn't see a Scientology angle in it like critics, and other religious leaders, were claiming. I saw a remake of a classic. *shrug*


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:My favourite is probably Jon Shannow, if you've read the Jerusalem Man series. He has much more "grey" in his morality, and is a very effective anti-hero.

Whoops. offtopic ubblol

What did anyone actually think of WotW? Has anyone else seen it, and is it worth my money to see it myself?

So Marx isn't actually condemning Religion as such, which is generally why I don't like people using that quote as a criticism of Religion. It's an expresssion of frustration and despair, but not inherently bad.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Quiet, Zoroastrianism.

Icer, Shamans Crossing has just appeared in my local bookshop, and Im saving it for the next wet weekend, probably this w/e. I think its a new series.

Pele, so did Luther.

I think coming back to HGs War of the World puts everything in perspective, apparently he was a bit eccentric. Now, when are they going to do Men Like Gods?

Sethis, dunno about condemning religion. Ive always taken that quote to mean beliefin religion helps the masses cope with a life of servitude. In much the same way some tribes use Khat.





Cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


drakematrix
drakematrix

Maker of the Cheesecake
Location: Akron, OH
Member Since: 14th Oct 2004
Total posts: 174
Posted:There are plenty of non mono-theistic religions out there. Heck, The Hebrews only became monotheistic after contact with the Zoroastrians (SP?). To name a few currently active non-monothiestic religions... Hinduism, Buddhism (though not technically gods), Shinto, Wicca, Druidism, Astrau, (pretty much the entire neo-pagan grouping of religions), All of the Native American belifs still in existence. I believe Ba'hai also considers itself non monotheistic

What exactly do I have to light on fire to get you to notice me?


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:My personal dislike of Scientology stems from the time when one of them took the lady I was walking behind in the street in for one of their personality tests. I suppose it didn't affect me personally as such, but that lady had a very nice behind, and it really annoyed me that she was moved away from me.

Reading the rest of this thread now makes me worry slightly. I didn't know her but I hope she wasn't taken in by this garbage.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:stone - i was just pointing out that there are polytheistic religions. what's zoroastrianism got to do with it?

ture na sig


Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Written by: quiet

stone - i was just pointing out that there are polytheistic religions. what's zoroastrianism got to do with it?



ubblol Quiet, I am glad it isn't just me that Stone confused. I've been trying to figure out what Luther did too. ubblol


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi guys, I would have replied sooner but Ive been away. Just completed the Landmark forum actually; which some people probably lump in with scientology :lol. more on that in another thread.



I will answer the questions, but Im no longer arguing about religion.



Quiet, I though your example was of a of a monotheist religion. Zoroastrianism, explains a lot.



Pele, what you said about the church reminded me of Martin Luthers umm proclamations C. 1600.



Cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Tao Star
Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:*bump*!

ok...i was looking up scientology, cause with all thsi talk of isaac hayes & stuff i though i might as well understand what it's all about.

we did a section on it when i was studying GCSE religion, and i remember thinking it was pretty stupid, but i thought, hey, might as well check out the website and get that side of the story..

so i got as far the pae that explains what they believe and i found this graph...


Non-Https Image Link


now, it may just be me, but this really reminded me of the graph that chris morris shows someone on brass eye that has labels like 'good' 'bad' 'society' 'yes' 'no' with a load of numbers and no explanation...surely this is complete nonsense!?!?! does anyone else understand it??? for a site that supposed to be convincing people it seemed pretty stupid to me. please someone tell me they didni't hire a 10 yr old (or chros morris!!) or am i being dumb, cos i certainly can't make head nor tail. smile


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:OK we agree upon Scientology being dangerous and somewhat frightening... question is: why do people STILL (despite all the negative information that spurls around everywhere) join this "club"?

What is the lesson to "the rest of us"... same as: "don't touch heroine!" ?!?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Mojojo
Mojojo

wandering dingo
Location: Aussie in London
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 167
Posted:From a friend who was formerly a Scientologist but has now escaped the reliegion (and I do mean escaped, it took him years and had to move house, change his name, his car, and never be seen by any of his scientologist mates as they were literally hunting him down to drag him back)

That he thought a big part of what gets and keeps people is that right from the outset you are led to believe how special you are, and how much better than the non scientologist or "wogs" you are, and how you CAN achieve greatness within scientology. All sorts of different levels of greatness, from being clear (you will not get sick again!) to being immortal.
Not that I disagreee that everyone IS special, but please!rolleyes

Have been doing a bit of research myself because of the whole Isaac Hayes thing has got my interest peaked too.
Some of their basic principles seem logical to me, its just that there is a whole lot of completely unscientific gaff and pure hogwash in there too.

I am interested in why there are so many prominent would really like to know why there are so many celebrities that are scientologists. Check out the list here on
wikipedia


Only three things are certain: Death, Taxes, and that England will not win back the Ashes in this lifetime.


tartanfairy
tartanfairy

newbie
Location: London
Member Since: 16th Sep 2005
Total posts: 22
Posted: Written by: linden rathen


id be interested to take a test just to see what im rated as but no where near me




Sam! But there is! Come out of your halls, turn right on Tottenham Court Road and its 5 mins away ubblol near Goodge Street tube there's a really dodgy looking little shopfront for 'The Church of Scientology"...

you going to go get tested? eek


**I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.**

Douglas Adams

**There is no pleasure in having nothing to do; the fun is in having lots to do and not doing it.**

Mary Wilson Little


Tao Star
Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:i'd get tested. just out of curiosity. i'd like to think i have more sense than to get taken in (plus i'd be practiacally worthless to them having a very low income!)



anyway, i'd be dissapointed if the only way i could achieve pureness was by having part of my brain wiped! ha ha. i like the challenge (and reward) of bettering myself thank you very much. even if it does take longer!


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted: Written by:

I am interested in why there are so many prominent would really like to know why there are so many celebrities that are scientologists?



Perhaps because it works.


Admittedly, I dont know anything about Scientology, but I suspect a lot the issues around scientology arise because the people criticizing it are only guessing what terms like clear alien immortal mean in the context of this religion.


Live and let live.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Tao Star
Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:not true...i read their whole website! and it still sounds lke total rubbish to me. sorry!

I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Exactly Tao Star wink You read their whole website and didn't understand anything, perhaps due to per-concieved ideas of what they should be saying.

It's not all bad, they have some good ideas. All cults have their own language, and you didnt understand because you dont know their language.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:sorry to say I totaly disagree with you Stone. The reason so many cults draw so many people in is becasue their "language" makes sense to people. The way that the cult lives and works is seductive to people, so they join.

In my opinion the Scientologists are very deceptive, the only way their 'religion' works is by people paying rediculious amounts of money to become clear and immortal, quite often bankrupting themselves in the process. Then the group dumps that person in search for another sucker with a bank account. They definatly worship a god, Money.

I have researched Scientology, I have spoken to very high up members in the brisbane chapter I have even been to their cattle calls, I know what they believe, I also find it very disturbing that there are parts of the religion that you are not permitted to know about until you have reached a certian level.

If they had nothing to hide why wouldnt they tell you what the reliegion is all about straight away? Or do they have to brainwash you into believing?

Please can you explain how their audtiting makes your IQ raise? *snort*
auditing

see also at the bottom of the page the "e meter" and restrictions on auditing ~ funnily enough someone who is constantly "attacking" Scientology (or questioning it) cannot be audited... perhaps this is becasue they have a mind of their own still? ubbidea


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"


Igirisujin
Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 2666
Posted:I LOVE scientology, its a great sorce of entertainment for me. I just think of Tom Cruise accusing that celeb of being wrong for taking medication for post natal deppresion (and getting all his words wrong when hes talking about the medical side) and I smile.



Hes such a fame chaser, I can understand that from Katie Holmes but not him he dosent need to advertise himself anymore. Div


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Valura, Im not sticking up for Scientology as much as just debating this cult thing. So, I dont totally disagree with you smile You have some good points, like the money aspect and the e-meter.

To put it in perspective, we have three major religions (Jews, Muslims and Christians) who all believe in the same God, all hell bent on blowing each other up and bringing the planet to the verge of World War 3 in the process. So I find it ironic that everyone goes off because Tom Crusise looks for an alternative and a way out of the Matrix.

I agree their "language" makes sense to people and is attractive. The point I was making was that their words probably have different meanings. Like alien could mean something other than a creature from outer space.

Its possible that people who become clear and immortal dont need money, or have the power to generate it if they need it. And many people worship the money god.

Auditing looks a bit suss with that e-meter, but its similar to confession. I can see why they might find someone hostile if they "attack" Scientology.

I suppose it all come down to whether we really have minds of our own. After reading the Artificial Intelligence threads on HOP, I think its unlikely.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Alien most definitely does mean creature from outer space. If you manage to reach the level of "Operating Thetan III" then this is what you get told



http://www.xenu.net/archive/OTIII-scholar/
br>


They most definitely believe in aliens rolleyes

EDITED_BY: spiralx (1143109971)


"Moo," said the happy cow.


Tao Star
Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted: Written by: Stone


Exactly Tao Star wink You read their whole website and didn't understand anything, perhaps due to per-concieved ideas of what they should be saying.

It's not all bad, they have some good ideas. All cults have their own language, and you didnt understand because you dont know their language.



no, that's not actually what i said, i understood what they were saying, and i thnk some of their aims are very admirable. however, i think that their methods are...well...not for me smile. i had no pre-concieved ideas, as i have never looked in to scientology before, and read the website specifically to hear their side!

about the language thing...well, the site is designed for people who don't know about scientology and very clearly explains what all their terms mean and how they came about. please don't accuse me of ignorance....i was attempting to actually be fair and get all the information.

i did not diagree with them before...how can you disagree with someone about whom you know nothing? now i know a little and am not tempetd to join! i don't think that means i didn't understand....


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.


coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: Stone


Exactly Tao Star wink You read their whole website and didn't understand anything, perhaps due to per-concieved ideas of what they should be saying.

It's not all bad, they have some good ideas. All cults have their own language, and you didnt understand because you dont know their language.



easy now stone ubblol

i have spent quite a bit of time reading around scientology too and disagreeing with what they say is very different from mis-understanding it.

to me, its like a distributed, serailised and fragmented sci-fi romp smile

which would be great except people are losing their lives to this bullsh!t.

scientology is supposed to ultimately empower an individual and make their will all-powerful (which harks straight back to the aims of occult magick) but as far as i can see, it does exactly the opposite.

scientology shuns religion but is based on believing in a story that there is no evidence for - in other words "faith".
i have a big problem with that and that is why i dislike scientology so much - even more than this bunch of scheisters.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


buzzingtalk
buzzingtalk

Member
Location: London, england
Member Since: 17th Nov 2005
Total posts: 152
Posted:It just seems like people watching star trek and acutally taking it seriously, except they pay 100 a show

but if you wana believe that then go ahead as long as you dont hurt no one!


Kiss me now, You're beatiful, For these days are truly the last.


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Apologies Tao Star, I misinterpreted total rubbish to me .

Its not for me either.

cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:To me joining scientology is like pumping heroine in your blood vessels... These days there is a lot of information about this "cult" available and many people raise a lot of serious concerns...

Personally I can't understand how anyone would (still) join them - without wanting to get exploited - as much as I have difficulties to understand why someone these days would go into heroin-abuse - without wanting to die... [/sarcasm]

For sure it's a very sophisticated method and sure enough it provides one with energy (clarity I am not so sure of, when looking at T.C.) and maybe even success... but at what cost? umm


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Page: 123

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