Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > lead hands (and even handed moves)

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Rev
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Posted:so lead hands are something we dont talk about much... but I want to bring it up, because I'm a bit confused.. and writing things out always helps me understand things better...

ok.. since the weave is cross handed, we dont really have much of an isse when it comes to lead hands.. I mean you have a right hand led even beat pattern whihc is unatural feeling (I'm not saying you can't make it natural, I'm just saying its not natural.. ) and you have a left hand led even beat pattern.. whihc is equivalent.. and you combine the two and you get an alternating lead hand pattern that is odd beat and quite natural..

thus we get even patterns that are equivalent regardless of whihc hand leads, and can even alter the hands used to lead on the alternating odd beat patterns by adding a little twist to it.. (kinda like an offset) think 3bt weave that uses 5bt twist.. (if that doesnt make sense, dont think too hard.. its not overly important to the topic at hand)..


now, lets move to even handed moves... ex. windmill, corkscrew, and watermill.. unlike the cross handed patterns..these have equal reach of each hand throughout the mvoe.. and thus naturally end up even beat.. granted you can make them odd beat, by leaning a little to one side or another, but essentially what you are doing is giving the move a little cross handedness..

now to get to the point.. why is is so hard to have either hand lead the same pattern in an even handed move? I mean you can 2bt either hand quite easily.. but getting the 4bt to lead with the other hand is FRICKIN' HARD.. in fact.. its easier to just move on to the 6bt than it is to do the 4bt with the other hand..

now one of the things I noticed was that if I tried to a corkscrew that went down behind me, rather than in front of me..I can get the other hand to lead easily... but then isnt that like switching direction... (after all the top of a bth corkscrew its the same as the bottom of a front corkscrew going the other way... ) it might be easeir to think of it being like a wallplane weave, where the top represents the crossover plane and the front and back represent the two different directions..

I'm confused, because when you do change the lead hand on crosshanded mvoes, you don't have to go the other directions to get the other hand to lead.. so why do even handed moves only go one way/hand? I mean isnt the 5bt corkscrew made of the the right and left hand led 4bt corks? so why is that other 4bt so hard to do by itself? what am I missing?


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Rev
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Posted:frown

well yeah my elbows point to the side.. but that's because I have to reach around further.. they do that for the 6bt cork two..



how's your 3bt cork, if asking that doesnt scare you off more... if it does.. than ignore it.. wink



because the 3bts.. should add together to make the 4bt.. and the 5bts should add together to make the 6bt.... in the same way that the weave has 2 2bts = 3bt.. 2 4bts = 5bt.. 2 6bts = 7bt.. ansd so on..



edit: and this applies to even handed moves like watermills, and windmilss.. so it doesnt HAVE to be a cork thing.. biggrin

EDITED_BY: Rev (1119891150)


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tenticle
tenticle

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Posted:hmm, i think i said this before somewhere, but anyway...
windmills are reels. they are wall plane moves with one poi spinning on the forwards side of the body and one poi spinning on the reverse side of the body.
if you try to do a five beat windmill like a five beat weave you'll end up not reeling but weaving, with both poi on either the forward or reverse side (or fountaining if you use both one after the other). the more forward hand leads through almost every forward reel i can think of, pretty much because that's the hand that has the most freedom of movement. also remember that you are looking at the bottom of the circle for a windmill, whereas you normally look at the top for reels.
with a wheel plane weave, you can turn your shoulders to switch which poi is more forward, which takes the place of a wrist twist, and allows easy symetrical odd beat weaves. when you do it wall plane, you have to find a bit of wrist twist to compensate for the lack of shoulder movement, and you find a wall plane odd beat weave is *not* the same when transitioning in front to behind as it is from behind to in front, so is not symetrical either.
windmills have no shoulder turn and have to keep one spinning forward and one backwards, and so have non-symetrical odd beat transitions.
oh, yeah, as a quick check, turn 180 between a clockwise windmill and an anticlockwise one every transition. each poi'll do three beats, exactly where you'd expect them to be in a three beat weave.

hth.

--ben


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Rev
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Posted:ben...
you lost me..

none of my windmills are reels they are all even beat weaves.. (both poi are on the same side at the same time..)

I never said windmilsl were plane symetrical.. I said they were lead hand symetrical.. (odd beat ones) whihc means if you take a 5bt clcokwise windmill with the right hahnd leading to the back and you take a 5bt clockwise windmill with the left hand leading back.. you get symetrcially equivalent weaves.. like you do with 4bt weaves of either hand leading.. 4bt weaves arent plane symetrical but they are lead hand symetrical.. and that's what I was saying about the 5bt windmill..


even beat even handed moves are equivalent to odd be crosshanded moves in every respect.. Single lead hand per direction.. made by combining the two different ways to lead the beat below its pattern..


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coleman
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Posted:Written by: Rev


how's your 3bt cork, if asking that doesnt scare you off more... if it does.. than ignore it.. wink



because the 3bts.. should add together to make the 4bt.. and the 5bts should add together to make the 6bt.... in the same way that the weave has 2 2bts = 3bt.. 2 4bts = 5bt.. 2 6bts = 7bt.. ansd so on..



edit: and this applies to even handed moves like watermills, and windmilss.. so it doesnt HAVE to be a cork thing.. biggrin





3bt cork is like 5bt cork for me - its either a 3bt weave turned on its side or it needs extra circles on the top or the bottom.



neither has the same kind of symmetry that the wheelplane weaves have, but that's because they are in a very different orientation to your hands/arms smile



as for the adding weaves together thing, personally i don't find it particularly useful to think of them like that.



when looking at all the information in a weave pattern, i look at plane orientation to arms, degrees of crossover, crossover points (only recently) and numbers of circles in each plane if required (offsets).



grouphug





cole. x

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spiralx
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Posted:Written by: tenticle

hmm, i think i said this before somewhere, but anyway...
windmills are reels. they are wall plane moves with one poi spinning on the forwards side of the body and one poi spinning on the reverse side of the body.


Agreed totally, and that's a great explaination of the differences. It's easy to show as well - to go from a standard shoulder reel to a windmill you literally just move your hands from your shoulders to above your head smile That's all the difference.

Hadn't thought of the asymmetry in wall plane weaves before, very good point.


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tenticle
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Posted:rev- two three beat corks do add together to make a four beat if you do them wheel plane style and turn your shoulders to swap which is the more upward poi... you should be able to do full lead hand and direction symmetry this way.
if you do them wall plane weave style and only turn your shoulders to keep one poi more up than the other, you get an asymetric version that has an extra beat on the top or bottom but means you have to find some extra wrist twist to do it, and if you don't turn them at all you get a windmill/reel version which, because you don't have any way of changing the more upward poi, has even beat symmetry, and only gets odd beat symmetry when you add a 180 degree turn, although for a corkscrew this would mean turning between corkscrew in front of you for the bottom bit to bent over backwards with corkscrew above you for the top bit. and vice versa.
another way to show windmills are reels is to imagine what a four beat hip reel would look like if your body wasn't in the way, and what transitions you'd use... in fact, spin a four beat watermill, it'd look like that.
the whole adding weaves together thing works by counting how many twists there are in your arms, and the odd beat is added by a twist of the shoulders, not the wrists, which is why it disappears in windmill moves... learning the weave wheel plane first makes you think wheel plane is 'normal' to poi in, rather than thinking of it as a special case that is easier to learn... also, wheel plane exhibits rotational symmetry as well as mirror symmetry, where wall plane only has mirror symmetry (unless you include a 180' turn).

--ben


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Rev
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Posted:This is all I'm saying.. if this maks sense then fine.. if it doesnt. sorry..





Code:

cross handed move (weave) Left|Right

2bt- R: 0 d. c.| 1rst d. c. L: 1rst d. c. | 0 d. c.

|_____________________|

|

3bt- 1rst d.c. | 1rst d.c.

4bt- R: 2nd d. c.| 1rst d. c. L: 1rst d. c. | 2nd d. c.

|______________________________________________|

|

5bt- 2nd d.c. | 2nd d.c.

6bt- R: 2nd d. c.| 3rd d. c. L: 3rd d. c. | 2nd d. c.

|___________________|

|

7bt- 3rd d.c. | 3rd d.c.

etc..





even handed moves (corks) Top|Bottom

2bt- 1rst | 1rst

3bt- R: 2nd d. c.| 1rst d. c. L: 1rst d. c. | 2nd d. c.

|______________________________________________|

|

4bt- 2nd d.c. | 2nd d.c.

5bt- R: 2nd d. c.| 3rd d. c. L: 3rd d. c. | 2nd d. c.

|___________________|

|

6bt- 3rd d.c. | 3rd d.c.



tis last part about the corkscrew dpends on the direction your goig.. you might have to flip those a little but the form stands..





I guess I don't see windmills as reels because I see reels as spinning in opposite planes.. and I don't get that with my even hand stuff..


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tenticle
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Posted:which is why you don't get what i'm saying... two beat reels spin in opposite planes, same as two beat weaves do (done wall plane), add more beats and they stay in the same plane for longer and stop looking like they are in opposite planes...
reels have one poi on the forwards side of the body, one on the reverse, which is what makes them different from weaves. windmills work like this, and thus are reels.
also, i understand your diagram but it misses the point that wheel plane is turning between wall planes, whereas windmills have no turn, so the two diagrams aren't showing the same thing at the same point, and that wall plane weaves are not symmetrical and so the diagrams dont show equivalent things at equivalent points either side of the center for cross handed moves.

oh, and there is a way to do other hand leading windmills, but it's a ball ache and probably counts as a different move, i havn't played with it enough yet, but reach the left hand behind your head and over the right shoulder, and the right poi around in front of you over the left shoulder. then spin a reel and keep the poi going over the same shoulder as you started from. hey presto, other hand leading. also works below the shoulder.

and oh again, i've just had an idea that might make the weirdness of wall plane butterfly weaves explain itself in the same way normal weaves do. but i need to go to bed so i'll sort it out later.

--ben


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Rev
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Posted:ben-



you other lead hand method.. is the same twist created by an offset.. just with your head in the way.. you have to have the left hand on the right side and te right hand on the left side.. and thus it is crossed.. which is what I talked about with the offset.. and why I said those are symmetrical since you can go over or under the hand when you cross to get the 'other lead hand weave'



and my diagram DOESNT miss the point.. if you think it does.. than I'm afraid you sadly miss the point.. did you even look at the diagram? because the 4bt weave and the 4bt windmill/cork/watermill are different.. they can't show equivalent things..



BUT they can show where there is equivalence... ie.. how the moves prgress and which are symetrical..



even handed moves are symmetrical on even beat mvoes.. and cross handed on oddbeat weaves.. and these have single lead hand per direction without offsets... the non-symetrical ones can have either lead hand either direction..



and for the record.. 2 bt weaves don't spin in opposite planes.. they spin in the same plane except for the crossover.. hecne why reeels which are always in opposite planes.. and weaves.. which are only opposite on crossovers are different..





now by all means... try and show me what my diagram 'leaves out'.. LOL... because I don't know what kinda crazyness you do for a windmill and what not.. but that describes exactly whatI do to a t.. it covers beats, tranisition, direction, plane, and lead hand.. the only thing I lack on there is timing.. which forgive me.. I thought kinda obvious..



I'm sorry I even brought this up.. since NOONE seems to have a clue what I'm saying..


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coleman
coleman

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Posted:Written by: Rev

and for the record.. 2 bt weaves don't spin in opposite planes.. they spin in the same plane except for the crossover.. hecne why reeels which are always in opposite planes.. and weaves.. which are only opposite on crossovers are different..



smile

this is fun - windmill vs reels discussion topics:

where does the crossover (transition between planes) start and end for a poi doing a figure 8?

leading on frok that, how many circles (or better, what percentage of a circle) does a poi spinning a figure 8 do in each of the two planes?

why did shatz (author of the clubswinging bible from the turn of last century) define windmills specifically as a quarter-time move?

if there is no timing difference and poi follow the same paths, what is the only area that a windmill differs from a reel?


cole. x


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Richee
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Posted:
"Back to the basics wohaaaaaa" smile

Cole -

1) Starts at the top or bottom of the circle.
2)They did not do a circles, they do two carries.
3) Have no idea ?
4)Reel is not time and area dependant its circular theory. Its Carry
dependant smile

:R


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Rev
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Posted:1) depends on the direction but the crossover begins, at a point 90 off of the actualy point of crossover.. i.e top for a fwd weave.. ends 180 apart.. ie bottom on a fwd weave..



2) depends on your definition of planes there cole.. I mean.. I consider the outer plane to be the whole time you are spinning facing that way.. for instance right side plane of a fwd weave is the whole time the poi is spinning to the right of the right hand.. so though you are looking for an answer like half circle (judging by your crossover question).. I contend its whole circles.. shrug



3)because like us he has his own way of 'seeing' poi.. and thus probably justifies it withthe same nonsense I use to justify my own ramblings wink (ie.. I don't know, probably something to do with the timing of the crossovers.. )



4) there are differences.. in path... when I do reels the poi are in opposite planes (ie alternating..) whereas when I 2bt weave I have a follow time.. (i.e they actually share planes..)







why am I soo confused?



reel = alternating 2bt

weave= follow 2bt



edit:

I realized one thing that ma be mucking things up for me.. I look at a windmill and what not as having two planes.. that both poi share.. but my high reels as having 4..

windmill has front and back.. high reels have right and left front and right and left back.. so when I see reels, I see them as being opposite planes AND opposite sides.. whihc helps further seperate the 2bt windmill from the reel.. my body in the middle of a reel isnt just a consequence that isnt there during a windmill.. its what defines the reel as something different.. apart from the other differences I noted..

EDITED_BY: Rev (1120077308)


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tenticle
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Posted:right, if the cross handed move diagram is showing a wheel plane cross handed move, them the left and right handed 2 beats that get added together to make the 3 beat are only symmetrical because you can rotate your body to make them so. or if it shows wall plane cross handed moves, then the left 2 beat and the 2 two beat crossovers that get added together to make the three are not symmetrical because one is an over the arm and one is under (which i might have to demonstrate because i can't think of a way to make it obvious in text, but it suddenly becomes clear trying to learn completly wall plane sevens).
the thing missing from the diagram is that the even and cross handed moves are mirror symmetrical when doing even beats, but cross handed moves are rotationally symmetrical when doing odd beats because of the twist you can add with your shoulders that makes it look as if you are doing one less crossover than you think.
odd beat cross handed moves are symmetrical only becaus you can change which is the crossed hand. remove that abillity and they are symmetrical on even beats.

did you try the turning between clockwise and anti clockwise windmills and counting the beats and where they go? heres another demonstration that shows the converse... spin a ccw wall plane 2 beat on your left side, left hand outermost. move into a two beat watermill then to a normal 2 beat hip reel. back to watermill, now move into a wall plane 2 beat on your right side, right hand outermost. now to a two beat windmill, and back to the start. the hand positions and relative planes and lead don't change throught this whole sequence, but the crossover point is moved around in a big circle. now try it again starting from the beginning but with the right hand outermost on the left side. then try it with four beat moves (except the hip reel bit)... notice anything? you might have to stop looking at what the poi are doing from your pov and imagine the whole system from outside... or from above. then you can draw in all the planes of symmetry relative to a fixed point rather than the changing point of view you get by looking from the middle of the system.

i reallly can't think of any way to explain this more simply, so if trying the things above doesn't help, you're just going to have to get your butt to england so i can show you...

and, you're right, that other leading windmill isn't really, it does use an offset, but it offsets from the shoulders rather than the wrists. hopefully backing up my earlier point.

--ben


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Dragon7
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Posted:The problem is they didnt define 5bt corkscrew/ windmill.



Imo reels vs windmill are totally different, Just look at where your hands are and how they go bth differently. Its like fountain. If you look at the fountain video, you can clearly see there is no windmill in it.



Id like to see a reel using offsets in the 5bt hand position.


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spiralx
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Posted:Aren't those crossers? wink

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Rev
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Posted:I'm not saing you can't turn between the wallplanes and get an odd beat.. whihc is why I say your missing thepoint..

crosshanded moves are odd beat because they have a hand that is cross.. so they are symmetrical on odd beat moves.. and it applies to wallplane stuff as well.. the thing about wallplanes though is that they you have unequal arms.. because one arm is already cross when on its side.. and twice crossed on its cross side.. whihc only makes things more awkward.. If you weave , while keeping your right elbow touching your right ribs the whole time you get the same effect.. so I don't understand wehre you are trying to go with this turning wallplanes stuff.. you are looking at something else.. because turning isnt a part of any of this.. so you are having to add something in to get whattever you are trying to talk about..

its like lokking at moves by beats.. or by degree crossover.. both are applicable.. and both somewhat apply to the same things.. but since they focus on different things.. they cant account for each other.. and I think our two descriptions but together like that..

and as far as the offset from the shoudlers.. again.. that doesnt make ssens.. when you do the move you have the left hand on the right sdie.. you sitll have to put the right hand either under or over the left hand to get it to the left side.., the placement of the left arm is moot.. the offset-ness still comes at the forearm/wrist..


so I guess we've gone from 1 issue to 2 issues now where we disagree..

1- reels.. to me are seperate.. seperate planes.. seperate crossover points.. windmills have same planes and same crossover points.. or rather together planes.. and same crossovers.. anything else.. takes some real stretching of the terms.. no pun intended..

2- the shoulder/wrist thing.. when I do a 5bt windmill.. or a 5bt corkscrew.. or a 5bt watermill... I don't do ANYTHING that doesnt occur in my 6bt cork/windmill/watermill..
when I do a 3bt cork/windmil/water there again are no motions that dont' occur in the 4bt cork/windmil/watermill.. so I don't see where turning my shoudlers on even beat makes a rel and odd beat makes a weave.. or whwatver it is that you are trying to help me see.. sorry.. all I see is what I put in the diagram above.. whihc is that even handed moves start with one degree twist higher than crosshanded mvoes.. because they don't have the extra room of being on 'their side'.. this throws the sequnece off on how they progress and build.. like I show above.. but apart from the sequence being off they are the same.. it's all just a weave.. just crosshanded weaves vs even handed weaves.. not crosshanded weaves and high beat reels.. maybe reels got brought up because I said even handed moves.. or something.. I dunno..


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Richee
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Posted:Edit:



Im not so confused, From Wikipoidia:

a)Reel

A move in which each poi does a figure of eight between the front and back wall planes on the same side of your body as your arms.

-----

b)Carry

When the poi spin only half a circle before changing to the other side of the body.

----



You can say Wind mill is combination of tw oCarries.(b)

Windmill is Reel(a). Because poi are on the same side of your body as your arms doind figure of-eight.

Why? Imagine you half your body with a perpendicular plane. Windmill is part of both halves.



light,



:R

EDITED_BY: Richee (1120407927)


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