Forums > Social Discussion > Yet another preventable whitegas accident... (deleted)
Login/Join to ParticipateNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Deleted due to legal issues.
EDITED_BY: NYC (1118155353)
Deleted due to legal issues.
EDITED_BY: NYC (1118155353)
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
nobody has mentioned another major factor against white gas, which worries me.
methanol. hello? does noone know about this?
i wish white gas were used only by trained pros who understand the explosion and poison risk and wasn't even mentioned as a safe fuel for newbies. i think that it makes the inevitable "horrible accident," which will make life even more difficult for performers, all the more fast in coming.
i have seen cans of coleman's fuel lit on fire like torches though. i have also seen the stupidest fire spinner ever (who is actually someone with a reputation around here) use coleman's as if it were a can of water with no regards to safety. in the end i think we all just have to do what we can.
nobody has mentioned another major factor against white gas, which worries me.
methanol. hello? does noone know about this?
i wish white gas were used only by trained pros who understand the explosion and poison risk and wasn't even mentioned as a safe fuel for newbies. i think that it makes the inevitable "horrible accident," which will make life even more difficult for performers, all the more fast in coming.
i have seen cans of coleman's fuel lit on fire like torches though. i have also seen the stupidest fire spinner ever (who is actually someone with a reputation around here) use coleman's as if it were a can of water with no regards to safety. in the end i think we all just have to do what we can.
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
Methanol? Please explain????
Methanol? Please explain????
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
Ninja Rockstar!
1,100 posts
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.
1,100 posts
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.
Posted:
I was originally going to post this long winded, caviot filled, drawn out post
But
What it all boiled down to was this:
I'm a smoker.
White gas + cigarette = bad times
Kero + cigarette = a lot more idiocy before bad times set in.
I was originally going to post this long winded, caviot filled, drawn out post
But
What it all boiled down to was this:
I'm a smoker.
White gas + cigarette = bad times
Kero + cigarette = a lot more idiocy before bad times set in.
Jesus helps me trick people.
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
ATTENTION UK SPINNERS ONLY:
more specifically, uk firespinners/fire jugglers/performers that particularly dislike being covered in soot and smelling like paint cleaner...
i just got an email back with prices on shellsol d60 from a supplier that is just a 15 minute drive away from my house
25l cans work out at £72 plus VAT
which works out at about £3.40 per litre.
that's about 3 and a half times more expensive than paraffin but i guess it might be worth the extra cost considering the advantages and how rarely i spin fire these days...
the quote i got also said 5l cans were available but at £42 per can + VAT so i think i'll ignore that bit!
i am going to enquire if there is a larger can available (50-100l) because it may well work out a damn sight cheaper looking at the above price differences.
i will also be enquiring as to whether there are any bulk discounts/account-related discounts available for non-business customers but before i do, is there anyone else (in the london area) that would want to consider going in on getting some of this stuff?
delivery is available from the supplier (or me) at approx £10 per consignment.
cole. x
ATTENTION UK SPINNERS ONLY:
more specifically, uk firespinners/fire jugglers/performers that particularly dislike being covered in soot and smelling like paint cleaner...
i just got an email back with prices on shellsol d60 from a supplier that is just a 15 minute drive away from my house
25l cans work out at £72 plus VAT
which works out at about £3.40 per litre.
that's about 3 and a half times more expensive than paraffin but i guess it might be worth the extra cost considering the advantages and how rarely i spin fire these days...
the quote i got also said 5l cans were available but at £42 per can + VAT so i think i'll ignore that bit!
i am going to enquire if there is a larger can available (50-100l) because it may well work out a damn sight cheaper looking at the above price differences.
i will also be enquiring as to whether there are any bulk discounts/account-related discounts available for non-business customers but before i do, is there anyone else (in the london area) that would want to consider going in on getting some of this stuff?
delivery is available from the supplier (or me
) at approx £10 per consignment.cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
SILVER Member
old hand
768 posts
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
old hand
768 posts
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Posted:
Okay, I accept that I should've been more careful in my wording. Of course there's a difference (which I did acknowledge in other parts of my post) and yes, I concede that white gas is more dangerous. Your point re: responsbility in the presence of newbies is well taken.
If I ever do have an accident, perhaps someone will say it could've been avoided if I had used a less volatile fuel. Someone else though, could just as validly say it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't been playing with fire in the first place. I mean really, the best and most definitive way to address concerns about burns and accidents is simply to not dip our toys in combustible liquids and light them on fire. I don't really see that happening with this crowd though.
edited cuz i decided my original post went on too long and was needlessly confrontational
EDITED_BY: blueboy (1118113835)
Written by: NYCWritten by: blueboy
I see no reason why using white gas is worse
I think there is some value to your arguement, but in a site full of newbies, I think it's irresponsible to suggest that there is no difference.
Okay, I accept that I should've been more careful in my wording. Of course there's a difference (which I did acknowledge in other parts of my post) and yes, I concede that white gas is more dangerous. Your point re: responsbility in the presence of newbies is well taken.
If I ever do have an accident, perhaps someone will say it could've been avoided if I had used a less volatile fuel. Someone else though, could just as validly say it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't been playing with fire in the first place. I mean really, the best and most definitive way to address concerns about burns and accidents is simply to not dip our toys in combustible liquids and light them on fire. I don't really see that happening with this crowd though.
edited cuz i decided my original post went on too long and was needlessly confrontational
EDITED_BY: blueboy (1118113835)
taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
Hey Well done Cole!
Shame about the price... over 3 times more than we pay for 20l size.. But it's really nice not to stink!
Hey Well done Cole!
Shame about the price... over 3 times more than we pay for 20l size.. But it's really nice not to stink!
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
SILVER Member
enthusiast
270 posts
Location: USA
enthusiast
270 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
I can't even begin to express how this thread pisses me off.
If you live in the UK or Oz, this is a purely THEORETICAL discussion for you. You've never spun with white gas, or if you have, you've treated it like paraffin. Frankly I can see now why so few American spinners spend time on HOP now... Rory, Cole, and Dave, I know you guys mean well, but how much experience do you have with this stuff? In one week there's been 66 messages, and very few by people who've actually worked with it. Frankly this is a better discussion for tribe, where more people have access to White Gas.
I've been using white gas almost exclusively for about 2 years... and I've been spinning for almost 3 years.
Different fuels have different properties. Respect your fuel, respect the fire, take safety precautions, educate yourself about the risks, and take responsibility for the risks you take.
I will be the first to say that in San Francisco we're not as cautious as many other people... and on top of that, the people I spin with tend to be a bit less cautious than even the folks that Blueboy hangs out with.
2 years with white gas... averaging 3-4 nights a week of fire... between 2 and 10 burns a night. I light myself on fire on a regular basis -- but it's small fuel fires on my trousers. Okay, I've lit my HAIR on fire (actual flames) 4 times (3 of these were at Burning Man where it's extra dry), my face on fire once (again, at Burning Man), and singe my hair almost every night I spin. I've had 1 instance of my handles catching fire. Still, I rarely even feel sunburn-level pain from these fires, let alone anything serious. The fires are usually put out almost instantly either by myself or by my safety person. It's basically just the fuel burning -- not much effect at all on me. It doesn't spread that quickly because usually there's only fuel spilled on a small spot. I know, my experience doesn't mean it's not hazardous, blah blah blah... I realize that bigger accidents may happen, but I am prepared to deal with that when it comes. The point is that White Gas is not the evil nasty fuel that you make it out to be, lighting people on fire does NOT neccessarily mean hopitalization if it's just a small fuel fire.
I've never seen a fuel dump fire, and I sure hope I never do. Still, it's just a fire - not an explosion, and we use metal containers with tops that will shut. In firefighting, they have a concept called "put it in a box" -- that is, if you isolate a fire, it will eventually go out. I have seen newbies use plastic containers, which would melt and spill fuel everywhere, which would be a major hazard. With metal containers and the ability to put out the fire or at worst let the fire burn out, I don't think this is as big a hazard as people make it out to be. I can imagine that fuel dump fires look dramatic, and I'm sure if you were a professional doing a show(I am not) this would be a much bigger concern. I'm not being cavalier... just pointing out that a proper fuel dump would not be a hazard.
Why do I use White Gas? White Gas burns cleaner. I don't mean it's better for the environment, or that it's better for my health... I mean in aesthetic terms. Kerosine (paraffin) stinks, and leaves nasty soot marks all over everything. With my big wicks, Kero also lasts WAY too long (this is why UK wicks are half the size of American ones). The quality of Kerosine also varies greatly, and the cheaper the stuff is, the stinkier. Lamp Oil is slightly less stinky than Kero IF you get the ultra-pure kind used indoors, but lamp oil smoulders after the burn and gives off a lot of nasty white smoke. And then there's the waxy residue. Lamp oil tends to also give my clothes a really nasty sickly sweet smell if I wash them in the washing machine sometimes. I suspect it's some weird combination of lamp oil and courderoy...
Oh yeah. WHY would ANYONE dunk their poi into the fuel while still lit? I suppose if you were using Lamp Oil or Kero, and the poi smoked afterwards, you'd dunk them to stop them from smoking. With white gas, this is not an issue, because there is no nasty smoke after the poi go out.
For the record, American poi spinners are not all a bunch of crazed pyros with no appreciation for poi spinning. I spin poi and happen to light it on fire a lot. I am NOT a huge pyromaniac, though some of my friends are. I say this because frankly I feel like y'all are just using this as an opportunity to "have a go" at American spinners, as if we're a bunch of reckless wackos.
Because we have a choice of fuels in America (rather than everyone just using Paraffin), we actually TALK about fuel all the time... all the different characteristics of each one, which ones are better for which situations, etc. I don't think anyone has gone as far as NYC did here, though, in terms of claiming that it's sooo dangerous that everyone should stop using it.
note: I have seen Coleman fuel in the UK, in tiny containers at camping shops, and they charge a fortune for the stuff. Here it is relatively cheap at less than $4 a gallon -- Lamp oil is about 3 times that much.
Interesting link for travellers looking for fuel:
https://members.iinet.net.au/~mbuckler/fuel/index.shtml
I can't even begin to express how this thread pisses me off.
If you live in the UK or Oz, this is a purely THEORETICAL discussion for you. You've never spun with white gas, or if you have, you've treated it like paraffin. Frankly I can see now why so few American spinners spend time on HOP now... Rory, Cole, and Dave, I know you guys mean well, but how much experience do you have with this stuff? In one week there's been 66 messages, and very few by people who've actually worked with it. Frankly this is a better discussion for tribe, where more people have access to White Gas.
I've been using white gas almost exclusively for about 2 years... and I've been spinning for almost 3 years.
Different fuels have different properties. Respect your fuel, respect the fire, take safety precautions, educate yourself about the risks, and take responsibility for the risks you take.
I will be the first to say that in San Francisco we're not as cautious as many other people... and on top of that, the people I spin with tend to be a bit less cautious than even the folks that Blueboy hangs out with.
2 years with white gas... averaging 3-4 nights a week of fire... between 2 and 10 burns a night. I light myself on fire on a regular basis -- but it's small fuel fires on my trousers. Okay, I've lit my HAIR on fire (actual flames) 4 times (3 of these were at Burning Man where it's extra dry), my face on fire once (again, at Burning Man), and singe my hair almost every night I spin. I've had 1 instance of my handles catching fire. Still, I rarely even feel sunburn-level pain from these fires, let alone anything serious. The fires are usually put out almost instantly either by myself or by my safety person. It's basically just the fuel burning -- not much effect at all on me. It doesn't spread that quickly because usually there's only fuel spilled on a small spot. I know, my experience doesn't mean it's not hazardous, blah blah blah... I realize that bigger accidents may happen, but I am prepared to deal with that when it comes. The point is that White Gas is not the evil nasty fuel that you make it out to be, lighting people on fire does NOT neccessarily mean hopitalization if it's just a small fuel fire.
I've never seen a fuel dump fire, and I sure hope I never do. Still, it's just a fire - not an explosion, and we use metal containers with tops that will shut. In firefighting, they have a concept called "put it in a box" -- that is, if you isolate a fire, it will eventually go out. I have seen newbies use plastic containers, which would melt and spill fuel everywhere, which would be a major hazard. With metal containers and the ability to put out the fire or at worst let the fire burn out, I don't think this is as big a hazard as people make it out to be. I can imagine that fuel dump fires look dramatic, and I'm sure if you were a professional doing a show(I am not) this would be a much bigger concern. I'm not being cavalier... just pointing out that a proper fuel dump would not be a hazard.
Why do I use White Gas? White Gas burns cleaner. I don't mean it's better for the environment, or that it's better for my health... I mean in aesthetic terms. Kerosine (paraffin) stinks, and leaves nasty soot marks all over everything. With my big wicks, Kero also lasts WAY too long (this is why UK wicks are half the size of American ones). The quality of Kerosine also varies greatly, and the cheaper the stuff is, the stinkier. Lamp Oil is slightly less stinky than Kero IF you get the ultra-pure kind used indoors, but lamp oil smoulders after the burn and gives off a lot of nasty white smoke. And then there's the waxy residue. Lamp oil tends to also give my clothes a really nasty sickly sweet smell if I wash them in the washing machine sometimes. I suspect it's some weird combination of lamp oil and courderoy...
Oh yeah. WHY would ANYONE dunk their poi into the fuel while still lit? I suppose if you were using Lamp Oil or Kero, and the poi smoked afterwards, you'd dunk them to stop them from smoking. With white gas, this is not an issue, because there is no nasty smoke after the poi go out.
For the record, American poi spinners are not all a bunch of crazed pyros with no appreciation for poi spinning. I spin poi and happen to light it on fire a lot. I am NOT a huge pyromaniac, though some of my friends are. I say this because frankly I feel like y'all are just using this as an opportunity to "have a go" at American spinners, as if we're a bunch of reckless wackos.
Because we have a choice of fuels in America (rather than everyone just using Paraffin), we actually TALK about fuel all the time... all the different characteristics of each one, which ones are better for which situations, etc. I don't think anyone has gone as far as NYC did here, though, in terms of claiming that it's sooo dangerous that everyone should stop using it.
note: I have seen Coleman fuel in the UK, in tiny containers at camping shops, and they charge a fortune for the stuff. Here it is relatively cheap at less than $4 a gallon -- Lamp oil is about 3 times that much.
Interesting link for travellers looking for fuel:
https://members.iinet.net.au/~mbuckler/fuel/index.shtml
SILVER Member
Liquid Cow
2,629 posts
Location: High Wycombe, England
Liquid Cow
2,629 posts
Location: High Wycombe, England
Posted:
Actually, I have used white gas, while I was in Australia, in Cairns.
Only a couple of burns so yep, I agree that I don't have a great deal of experience with it, but it scared the hell out of me - the poi lit before the lighter even got to them.
It scares me even more that random people could start using this stuff not knowing how to keep it as safe as possible - it's those people that I worry about, people with alot of experience know the risks and it's on their own back, it's nothing to do with me what fuel they use. That doesn't stop me wanting to discuss their fuel choice with them though.
I've used Shellsol too, I'd use it more if it wasn't so expensive, I really liked using it - it's not as smokey as paraffin.
For want of better words, this sentance makes me feel very abashed. I wasn't aware that we were driving the americans away. I thought my posts were written in the spirit of discussion rather an anti-american witchhunt, if I'm wrong then I apologise
Actually, I have used white gas, while I was in Australia, in Cairns.
Only a couple of burns so yep, I agree that I don't have a great deal of experience with it, but it scared the hell out of me - the poi lit before the lighter even got to them.
It scares me even more that random people could start using this stuff not knowing how to keep it as safe as possible - it's those people that I worry about, people with alot of experience know the risks and it's on their own back, it's nothing to do with me what fuel they use. That doesn't stop me wanting to discuss their fuel choice with them though.
I've used Shellsol too, I'd use it more if it wasn't so expensive, I really liked using it - it's not as smokey as paraffin.
Written by: Orbit
Frankly I can see now why so few American spinners spend time on HOP now.
For want of better words, this sentance makes me feel very abashed. I wasn't aware that we were driving the americans away. I thought my posts were written in the spirit of discussion rather an anti-american witchhunt, if I'm wrong then I apologise
But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Don't get pissed off, this is a discussion board and we're discussing fuel.
I can see your point about some of those being critical of white gas without ever having used it, but...
1. people on this thread who have used it have posted their opinion that in many ways, it's dodgy
2. people have posted here having seen accidents resulting in hospitalisation which, in their judgement, would not have happened had kero been used
3. you don't have to do something to know that it's dangerous (eg you don't have to have actual experience of drinking and driving to know that it's a bad idea)
You have used white gas extensively and never seriously damaged yourself- fair enough, but, as you've heard on this thread, other people have used it and got badly hurt.
I've certainly not seen this thread as an attack on Americans, and American spinning attitudes; NYC is American for one, and I've posted my opinion that most of the fire meets I've been to, which are all in the UK, have not been particularly safety conscious.
Lastly, you obviously use a safety person, and you use metal fuel containers.That's good, and probably vital if you're using white gas.
But not everyone uses a safety person or metal fuel containers- at UK meets for example, I've never seen either of them.
So yes, for you with your precautions, you've probably made use of white gas as safe as it can reasonably be; but
1. nevertheless, if you switched to kero, you'd be even safer (not suggesting you do, that's your choice, but, it would be safer)
2. for those (many) who don't take the precautions you do, using white gas is foolish
Written by: Orbit
I can't even begin to express how this thread pisses me off.
If you live in the UK or Oz, this is a purely THEORETICAL discussion for you. You've never spun with white gas, or if you have, you've treated it like paraffin. Frankly I can see now why so few American spinners spend time on HOP now... Rory, Cole, and Dave, I know you guys mean well, but how much experience do you have with this stuff? ................
Don't get pissed off, this is a discussion board and we're discussing fuel.
I can see your point about some of those being critical of white gas without ever having used it, but...
1. people on this thread who have used it have posted their opinion that in many ways, it's dodgy
2. people have posted here having seen accidents resulting in hospitalisation which, in their judgement, would not have happened had kero been used
3. you don't have to do something to know that it's dangerous (eg you don't have to have actual experience of drinking and driving to know that it's a bad idea)
You have used white gas extensively and never seriously damaged yourself- fair enough, but, as you've heard on this thread, other people have used it and got badly hurt.
I've certainly not seen this thread as an attack on Americans, and American spinning attitudes; NYC is American for one, and I've posted my opinion that most of the fire meets I've been to, which are all in the UK, have not been particularly safety conscious.
Lastly, you obviously use a safety person, and you use metal fuel containers.That's good, and probably vital if you're using white gas.
But not everyone uses a safety person or metal fuel containers- at UK meets for example, I've never seen either of them.
So yes, for you with your precautions, you've probably made use of white gas as safe as it can reasonably be; but
1. nevertheless, if you switched to kero, you'd be even safer (not suggesting you do, that's your choice, but, it would be safer)
2. for those (many) who don't take the precautions you do, using white gas is foolish
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
roger have you ever spun with petrol (gasoline)?
if not, why not?
if you have no experience of it, how can you be sure that it really is a more dangerous and dirtier fuel?
i don't need to spin with coleman fuel to know that a fuel that amounts to lighter fluid is not a substance i would ever recommend that a hobbyist poi or staff spinner use to spin fire with.
i don't think your choice of fuels in the us is very different to what it is here - there is one fuel that you can get easily everywhere and the rest are much more highly priced and harder to find.
there has been a recommendation for a clean burning, high temp flashpoint fuel in this thread but it seems everyone except those in oz (where you can get it fairly cheaply) has ignored it and dismissed it without even considering using it as an alternative.
why? because it is more of a hassle to get hold of and will probably cost more.
i apologise if my opinions up until now have read as though they are condemnations - i did not mean to say that whitegas should not be used at all.
i'm arguing that if there is an alternative fuel that is many times safer, why not recommend that as the primary fuel of choice on an international firespinning website when the disadvantages of reducing risk are simply inconveniances like "it makes my courdroys smell" or "my big wicks burn for too long".
i do not deny that whitegas can be used to fuel fire poi in a safe and risk-minimised manner and is even preferable for some performances.
but other fuels can minimise the risks that firespinning presents to hobbyists to a far greater degree, and if it means i have to keep some clothes aside to spin fire in, then so be it.
in three years of firespinning:
i have *never* set my clothes on fire;
i have *never* set my hair on fire;
i have *never* had to rely on a safety to put me out.
compare these statements to "i light myself on fire on a regular basis" (i don't care how 'small and managable' these fires are) i think i'm happy with my choice of fuel (until i can get some shellsol ).
as far as i'm concerned, "it doesn't make my clothes smell" is an inconsequential argument when the problem of the smell is replaced by regular occurances of fire transferring to clothing or a person.
"For the record, American poi spinners are not all a bunch of crazed pyros with no appreciation for poi spinning."
for the record i never have and never would suggest anything of the sort - that kind of blanket insult is as ridiculous and offensive to me as it it is you.
but since you're reading sweeping generalisations into what i've been saying then i might as well make one outright so i can't be mistaken :
my feeling is that most american firespinners use whitegas not because of the 'advantages' it presents but rather simply because it is the cheapest and most readily available fuel in the country - the same reason everyone here uses paraffin.
cole. x
EDITED_BY: coleman (1118153596)
roger have you ever spun with petrol (gasoline)?
if not, why not?
if you have no experience of it, how can you be sure that it really is a more dangerous and dirtier fuel?
i don't need to spin with coleman fuel to know that a fuel that amounts to lighter fluid is not a substance i would ever recommend that a hobbyist poi or staff spinner use to spin fire with.
i don't think your choice of fuels in the us is very different to what it is here - there is one fuel that you can get easily everywhere and the rest are much more highly priced and harder to find.
there has been a recommendation for a clean burning, high temp flashpoint fuel in this thread but it seems everyone except those in oz (where you can get it fairly cheaply) has ignored it and dismissed it without even considering using it as an alternative.
why? because it is more of a hassle to get hold of and will probably cost more.
i apologise if my opinions up until now have read as though they are condemnations - i did not mean to say that whitegas should not be used at all.
i'm arguing that if there is an alternative fuel that is many times safer, why not recommend that as the primary fuel of choice on an international firespinning website when the disadvantages of reducing risk are simply inconveniances like "it makes my courdroys smell" or "my big wicks burn for too long".
i do not deny that whitegas can be used to fuel fire poi in a safe and risk-minimised manner and is even preferable for some performances.
but other fuels can minimise the risks that firespinning presents to hobbyists to a far greater degree, and if it means i have to keep some clothes aside to spin fire in, then so be it.
in three years of firespinning:
i have *never* set my clothes on fire;
i have *never* set my hair on fire;
i have *never* had to rely on a safety to put me out.
compare these statements to "i light myself on fire on a regular basis" (i don't care how 'small and managable' these fires are) i think i'm happy with my choice of fuel (until i can get some shellsol
).as far as i'm concerned, "it doesn't make my clothes smell" is an inconsequential argument when the problem of the smell is replaced by regular occurances of fire transferring to clothing or a person.
"For the record, American poi spinners are not all a bunch of crazed pyros with no appreciation for poi spinning."
for the record i never have and never would suggest anything of the sort - that kind of blanket insult is as ridiculous and offensive to me as it it is you.
but since you're reading sweeping generalisations into what i've been saying then i might as well make one outright so i can't be mistaken
:my feeling is that most american firespinners use whitegas not because of the 'advantages' it presents but rather simply because it is the cheapest and most readily available fuel in the country - the same reason everyone here uses paraffin.
cole. x
EDITED_BY: coleman (1118153596)
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Sorry kids, captain wet blanket here.
It seems that Roger cut and pasted my entire first post onto the EXACT same site where there is information about my injured friend (tribe.net) I certainly never would have given the spinner's identity who was injured and feel more than a bit betrayed. There are legal implications of insurance coverage/heath care as well so I deleted my first post.
Taking my quotes out of context and rearranging my words like Orbit does to make them untrue is one thing (I never ever claimed "that it's sooo dangerous that everyone should stop using it." I do not believe that is true.)
But cutting and pasting my words on other websites in which those injured people frequent is pretty damn low.
I have spoken with the victim over the phone and look forward to giving him a hug the next time I see him.
Sorry kids, captain wet blanket here.
It seems that Roger cut and pasted my entire first post onto the EXACT same site where there is information about my injured friend (tribe.net) I certainly never would have given the spinner's identity who was injured and feel more than a bit betrayed. There are legal implications of insurance coverage/heath care as well so I deleted my first post.
Taking my quotes out of context and rearranging my words like Orbit does to make them untrue is one thing (I never ever claimed "that it's sooo dangerous that everyone should stop using it." I do not believe that is true.)
But cutting and pasting my words on other websites in which those injured people frequent is pretty damn low.
I have spoken with the victim over the phone and look forward to giving him a hug the next time I see him.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
ffs, what's wrong with just having a discussion?
i don't think posting this on another website is a very appropriate thing to do - especially without asking the permission of the author first.
on a complete tangent, is there copyright on this board at all (or in fact, on any internet discussion board)?
and if so, who has ownership of it?
i would imagine as the owner of the server, everything we write and store on hop may well belong to malcolm?
cole. x
EDITED_BY: coleman (1118158071)
ffs, what's wrong with just having a discussion?
i don't think posting this on another website is a very appropriate thing to do - especially without asking the permission of the author first.
on a complete tangent, is there copyright on this board at all (or in fact, on any internet discussion board)?
and if so, who has ownership of it?
i would imagine as the owner of the server, everything we write and store on hop may well belong to malcolm?
cole. x
EDITED_BY: coleman (1118158071)
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
SILVER Member
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Posted:
I doubt our words are copyrighted, I feel it's one of the dangers to posting anything on the world wide web.
Orbit's responce is the same emotional responce i felt like posting in my first post, but Instead I asked if you felt I was a bad person for using white gass. I understand it's a discussion ,but look at the title of this thread. Comeon that's an open attack. As far as the UK vs American fire spinners, there is a huge cultural difference which aids it's self to missunderstandings. Two different animals.
But I have found closure in this thread and know that you don't think I'm a bad person and may continue using white gass without being badmouthed or shunned in this community.
I doubt our words are copyrighted, I feel it's one of the dangers to posting anything on the world wide web.
Orbit's responce is the same emotional responce i felt like posting in my first post, but Instead I asked if you felt I was a bad person for using white gass. I understand it's a discussion ,but look at the title of this thread. Comeon that's an open attack. As far as the UK vs American fire spinners, there is a huge cultural difference which aids it's self to missunderstandings. Two different animals.
But I have found closure in this thread and know that you don't think I'm a bad person and may continue using white gass without being badmouthed or shunned in this community.
Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
cody
incidentally, i found this:
"Home of Poi Ltd and other contributors own respective copyright and all other intellectual property rights respectively in this site. Everything on this site is copyrighted by us or other parties, unless otherwise noted.
...
Permission to copy other contributors property is obtained through gaining permission from their respective owner/s."
that's pretty conclusive i'd say.
cole. x
cody incidentally, i found this:
"Home of Poi Ltd and other contributors own respective copyright and all other intellectual property rights respectively in this site. Everything on this site is copyrighted by us or other parties, unless otherwise noted.
...
Permission to copy other contributors property is obtained through gaining permission from their respective owner/s."
that's pretty conclusive i'd say.
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
SILVER Member
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Posted:
Cool, That's good to know, Thanks.
Cool, That's good to know, Thanks.
Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada
SILVER Member
with added berries
1,365 posts
Location: Manchester, England (UK)
with added berries
1,365 posts
Location: Manchester, England (UK)
Posted:
Firstly, I agree it is very wrong to reproduce anything written without asking the author, especially when it is something that refers to speific people as in this case.
Secondly
Firstly, I agree it is very wrong to reproduce anything written without asking the author, especially when it is something that refers to speific people as in this case.
Secondly
Written by: ]
Frankly I can see now why so few American spinners spend time on HOP now [/quote
Ok, this is something that really bugs me. It's with more and more frequent occurance that americans are acusing us of being anti-american. I have seen absolutly no evidence of this and think it is unfair to everyone on these boards to make these accusations when we try to go out of our way not to offend anyone. So to anyone who feels this way, we are sorry but I don't believe this to be the case.Written by: Orbit
I light myself on fire on a regular basis -- but it's small fuel fires on my trousers. Okay, I've lit my HAIR on fire (actual flames) 4 times (3 of these were at Burning Man where it's extra dry), my face on fire once (again, at Burning Man), and singe my hair almost every night I spin. I've had 1 instance of my handles catching fire. Still, I rarely even feel sunburn-level pain from these fires, let alone anything serious. The fires are usually put out almost instantly either by myself or by my safety person. It's basically just the fuel burning -- not much effect at all on me. It doesn't spread that quickly because usually there's only fuel spilled on a srmall spot. I know, my experience doesn't mean it's not hazardous, blah blah blah... I realize that bigger accidents may happen, but I am prepared to deal with that when it comes.
OK, I've tried very hard to keep that quote in context so not to be accused of misquoting. I find it very disturbing that anyone has the attitude that its ok to set themselves on fire, however small. I have only benn spinning fire for a year but I have never even come close to setting myself on fire. Although frequently I admitt I don't have a saftey, even if I did, you should NEVER have to use them. And I appologise if it seems I am picking on the author of this, it is not intentional.
I also think that you should use the safest fuel available to you. I have never had any problems with parrafin, and although it is a dirty flame it is more than sufficient for mine, and all my friends needs. I find the smell and charcoal marks come out as soon as i wash my clothes, and find this a poor excuse for not using what is possibly the safest fuel available. I do understand that there are occasions for using white gas and other more dangerous fuels, such as spinning indoors, but unless you need to use them specifically for this, then more dangerous fuels should be avoided.
At the end of the day what matters to you most, your own saftey or your clothes smelling a bit? Its a shame that people generally will only change their atitude when its too late and a serious accident has occured.
You also have to consider your responsibilty to others, whatever fuel you use, particularly concerning newbies and those niiave to fire saftey. If someone sees you spinning recklously and catching yourself on fire, then they may believe it is safe and try it themselves, without the necesary saftey precautions and result in a serious accident.
EDITED_BY: pricklyleaf (1118166942)Live like there is no tomorrow,
dance like nobody is watching
and hula hoop like wiggling will save the world.
“What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.”
Ralph Waldo Emerson
SILVER Member
old hand
768 posts
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
old hand
768 posts
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Posted:
An interesting dynamic seems to have emerged. My original response (on 6/6/05 @6:40pm) was a rather more emotional one like what Orbit posted and, apparently, what Cody felt like posting too. I edited mine because I decided it wasn't worth the confrontation and I thought that perhaps I was being overly-sensitive. But if two other people on the thread had similar reactions, then perhaps there's something to consider?
There was a tone of judgment in earlier posts that is what I had my emotional response to and what (I think) got Orbit riled up. And apparently Cody felt the same, but I echo his sentiment (and quote him here), "But I have found closure in this thread and know that you don't think I'm a bad person and may continue using white gass without being badmouthed or shunned in this community. "
An interesting dynamic seems to have emerged. My original response (on 6/6/05 @6:40pm) was a rather more emotional one like what Orbit posted and, apparently, what Cody felt like posting too. I edited mine because I decided it wasn't worth the confrontation and I thought that perhaps I was being overly-sensitive. But if two other people on the thread had similar reactions, then perhaps there's something to consider?
There was a tone of judgment in earlier posts that is what I had my emotional response to and what (I think) got Orbit riled up. And apparently Cody felt the same, but I echo his sentiment (and quote him here), "But I have found closure in this thread and know that you don't think I'm a bad person and may continue using white gass without being badmouthed or shunned in this community. "
taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco
SILVER Member
old hand
768 posts
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
old hand
768 posts
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Posted:
Okay I'm not so sure now that we white gas users won't be badmouthed or shunned. Spinning with white gas is, imo, not in and of itself , "reckless." At least not any more reckless than spinning fire already, inherently, is. Prickly Leaf--you yourself said
If someone asks me what my fuel is (no-one ever has, except other spinners who need a dip) I would tell them I use white gas, but a beginner should start with kerosene.
I get that we want everyone to be safe and want others to be safe and that all this is coming from having the community's best interests at heart. What offends me though, is the judgment that those who use white gas are doing something wrong, or are irresponsible/reckless or whatever.
EDITED_BY: blueboy (1118166499)
Written by: pricklyleaf
You also have to consider your responsibilty to others, particularly concerning newbies and those niiave to fire saftey. If someone sees you spinning recklously and even catching yourself on fire, then they may believe it is safe and try it themselves, without the necesary saftey precautions and result in a serious accident.
Okay I'm not so sure now that we white gas users won't be badmouthed or shunned. Spinning with white gas is, imo, not in and of itself , "reckless." At least not any more reckless than spinning fire already, inherently, is. Prickly Leaf--you yourself said
Written by: pricklyleafTo me, that is more reckless than using white gas, never mind what fuel you're using. I mean someone naive to firesafety who doesn't spin (yet) is probably more likely to notice if someone is standing by with a fireblanket or not than what kind of fuel is being used. They're just going to see someone swinging big balls of fire around their heads and they may "believe it is safe and try it themselves." How "responsible" is that?
Although frequently I admitt I don't have a saftey,
If someone asks me what my fuel is (no-one ever has, except other spinners who need a dip) I would tell them I use white gas, but a beginner should start with kerosene.
I get that we want everyone to be safe and want others to be safe and that all this is coming from having the community's best interests at heart. What offends me though, is the judgment that those who use white gas are doing something wrong, or are irresponsible/reckless or whatever.
EDITED_BY: blueboy (1118166499)
taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco
SILVER Member
with added berries
1,365 posts
Location: Manchester, England (UK)
with added berries
1,365 posts
Location: Manchester, England (UK)
Posted:
I never claimed it was respnsible spinning withut a saftey, but when i do that it is in my backgarden, which is obscured from public view by a huge hedge.
I'm sorry if that appeared to bad mouth anyone, it was unitentional and i sometimes find it difficult to explain things. I particularly meant that last statement to be in general, wahtever fuel you are using and will now edit that, sorry. I mainly meant it in reactin to the fact some people were casually talking about the fact they have set themselves on fire, as if it is no big deal, which i find very irresponsible.
I never claimed it was respnsible spinning withut a saftey, but when i do that it is in my backgarden, which is obscured from public view by a huge hedge.
I'm sorry if that appeared to bad mouth anyone, it was unitentional and i sometimes find it difficult to explain things. I particularly meant that last statement to be in general, wahtever fuel you are using and will now edit that, sorry. I mainly meant it in reactin to the fact some people were casually talking about the fact they have set themselves on fire, as if it is no big deal, which i find very irresponsible.
Live like there is no tomorrow,
dance like nobody is watching
and hula hoop like wiggling will save the world.
“What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.”
Ralph Waldo Emerson
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
Not everyone is ignoring and dismissing Shellsol D60 as an alternative to white gas, see my last post.
Anyway,,,I found it, in 20 litre pails at just over twice the cost of white gas. If I can find a few others to split a pail, I may just try it out, but I don't want to commit that much money to an experimental fuel only to be stuck with it, and having to dispose of it if I don't like it.
I never read any anti American sentiment into anyone's post, I took the original post to be a *save us from ourselves* post. and the fact that it came from an American who obviously has first hand experience with white gas only added credibility to the argument that this is dangerous stuff, even in the hands of an experienced spinner, accidents do happen, and without a doubt, kerosene is a safer fuel.
I take every safety precaution I can when spinning with white gas, including having my fuel about 100 feet from where people are spinning ,,I keep my fuel bucket under my car and spin off in the middle of a road but that's just me, in the dark I can't see what others are burning with, but I always assume it's white gas, so if I see someone smoking next to their fuel, then I always say something,,,it's all I can do.
Why do we need one fuel of choice?? why can't we have a selection? I feel it's the responsibility of the spinner to properly educate his/herself on the properties of the available fuels, if they choose not to, then they've chosen ignorance,,,read the warnings on the container, they're not put there just for fun. My can of Colemans says "handle with same care as gasoline" in big black letters.
Orbit,,,in Thailand, the Thais regularly put out their wicks in the 20 liter bucket of lamp oil, safety is not an issue over there, as anyone whose been there can attest to. Quite often it's when one poi goes out, they just redunk both poi for 5 to 10 seconds then light up again, no spin off. It must be a cultural thing because most Thais use those cheap white wicks,( which I think are asbestos) which take a couple of minutes to absorb fuel, so they're only burning for a minute or so between dunkings, I haven't been able to figure out their logic. Not a safe pracice when using white gas, however with lamp oil, you can simply blow out the burning 20 liter bucket if it does catch, which is good, because they don't have lids.
Not everyone is ignoring and dismissing Shellsol D60 as an alternative to white gas, see my last post.
Anyway,,,I found it, in 20 litre pails at just over twice the cost of white gas. If I can find a few others to split a pail, I may just try it out, but I don't want to commit that much money to an experimental fuel only to be stuck with it, and having to dispose of it if I don't like it.
I never read any anti American sentiment into anyone's post, I took the original post to be a *save us from ourselves* post. and the fact that it came from an American who obviously has first hand experience with white gas only added credibility to the argument that this is dangerous stuff, even in the hands of an experienced spinner, accidents do happen, and without a doubt, kerosene is a safer fuel.
I take every safety precaution I can when spinning with white gas, including having my fuel about 100 feet from where people are spinning ,,I keep my fuel bucket under my car and spin off in the middle of a road but that's just me, in the dark I can't see what others are burning with, but I always assume it's white gas, so if I see someone smoking next to their fuel, then I always say something,,,it's all I can do.
Why do we need one fuel of choice?? why can't we have a selection? I feel it's the responsibility of the spinner to properly educate his/herself on the properties of the available fuels, if they choose not to, then they've chosen ignorance,,,read the warnings on the container, they're not put there just for fun. My can of Colemans says "handle with same care as gasoline" in big black letters.
Orbit,,,in Thailand, the Thais regularly put out their wicks in the 20 liter bucket of lamp oil, safety is not an issue over there, as anyone whose been there can attest to. Quite often it's when one poi goes out, they just redunk both poi for 5 to 10 seconds then light up again, no spin off. It must be a cultural thing because most Thais use those cheap white wicks,( which I think are asbestos) which take a couple of minutes to absorb fuel, so they're only burning for a minute or so between dunkings, I haven't been able to figure out their logic. Not a safe pracice when using white gas, however with lamp oil, you can simply blow out the burning 20 liter bucket if it does catch, which is good, because they don't have lids.
SILVER Member
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Posted:
What we have here Blueboy is that cultural problem again.
Getting philosophical, Fire spinning is like scuba diving or rock climbing. They all used to be for extreme people, fire was a side show act. But now there all becoming standardized and available to the regular public. Depending on how you entered the arena your view is different. To me the "safe" fuel idea is quite complacent. Your playing with fire, which is inherently dangerous, but it's now readily available to the public who never saw it form the sideshow perspective. Talk to any oldschool scuba diver or rock climber and you'd think they were nuts. Everything they did was unsafe. Same thing with fire. If you were taught the old school style, that's the norm, if you came into it as another form of poi, your perspective is different.
What we have here Blueboy is that cultural problem again.
Getting philosophical, Fire spinning is like scuba diving or rock climbing. They all used to be for extreme people, fire was a side show act. But now there all becoming standardized and available to the regular public. Depending on how you entered the arena your view is different. To me the "safe" fuel idea is quite complacent. Your playing with fire, which is inherently dangerous, but it's now readily available to the public who never saw it form the sideshow perspective. Talk to any oldschool scuba diver or rock climber and you'd think they were nuts. Everything they did was unsafe. Same thing with fire. If you were taught the old school style, that's the norm, if you came into it as another form of poi, your perspective is different.
Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Why are people getting wound up by this?
The facts are very simple; kerosene (paraffin) is a safer fuel than white gas.
That's undeniable.
Yes, there are ways to minimise the dangers of using white gas, just as there are ways to minimise the (lesser) dangers of paraffin.
Should people use white gas? If they're experienced, it's down to them. Personally, given a choice of two fuels, I'd go for the safer one, even if it smells and smokes more.
I wouldn't judge a white gas user as 'wrong', or 'bad'; but I will judge them as people who are not particularly interested in minimising the risk as much as they could.
They can use metal fuel cans with lids, positioned 20 yards away from the fire spinning, and have full safety gear and a spotter- they'll then be doing a great job of cutting down the risk. However, they could if they wished, cut it down further by switching to the safer fuel.
It's up to them, they're not 'bad' or 'wrong', simply not being as safe as they could be.
There's no reason to feel insulted by someone saying that you're not using the safest fuel, when you are in fact, not using the safest fuel.
And yes, any use of fire with any fuel is inherently risky, but, as we've established on every other occasion this tired old argument has been dragged out, that is completely irrelevant- we spin fire, it's risky, our choice is how risky we make it.
When it comes to newbies, or when it comes to using fuel in situations where spotters and metal fuel cans etc are the exception rather than the norm (most UK meets), then I'd be inclined more to use 'bad'/'wrong' in connection with it.
I suspect (but can't claim to know) that there is probably a correlation between fuel choice and level of safety precautions.
So the UK-ers, who use paraffin, tend not to have spotters and metal fuel cans with lids; and the Americans using white gas, tend to have quite stringent safety precautions.
Let's not get hostile about it- it's all usefull info; it certainly helps me understand some of the more extreme safety stuff I've seen posted on HOP by people in the US.
Why are people getting wound up by this?
The facts are very simple; kerosene (paraffin) is a safer fuel than white gas.
That's undeniable.
Yes, there are ways to minimise the dangers of using white gas, just as there are ways to minimise the (lesser) dangers of paraffin.
Should people use white gas? If they're experienced, it's down to them. Personally, given a choice of two fuels, I'd go for the safer one, even if it smells and smokes more.
I wouldn't judge a white gas user as 'wrong', or 'bad'; but I will judge them as people who are not particularly interested in minimising the risk as much as they could.
They can use metal fuel cans with lids, positioned 20 yards away from the fire spinning, and have full safety gear and a spotter- they'll then be doing a great job of cutting down the risk. However, they could if they wished, cut it down further by switching to the safer fuel.
It's up to them, they're not 'bad' or 'wrong', simply not being as safe as they could be.
There's no reason to feel insulted by someone saying that you're not using the safest fuel, when you are in fact, not using the safest fuel.
And yes, any use of fire with any fuel is inherently risky, but, as we've established on every other occasion this tired old argument has been dragged out, that is completely irrelevant- we spin fire, it's risky, our choice is how risky we make it.
When it comes to newbies, or when it comes to using fuel in situations where spotters and metal fuel cans etc are the exception rather than the norm (most UK meets), then I'd be inclined more to use 'bad'/'wrong' in connection with it.
I suspect (but can't claim to know) that there is probably a correlation between fuel choice and level of safety precautions.
So the UK-ers, who use paraffin, tend not to have spotters and metal fuel cans with lids; and the Americans using white gas, tend to have quite stringent safety precautions.
Let's not get hostile about it- it's all usefull info; it certainly helps me understand some of the more extreme safety stuff I've seen posted on HOP by people in the US.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
SILVER Member
enthusiast
270 posts
Location: USA
enthusiast
270 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
Talk about emotional reactions...
1) My cross-posting was attributed to NYC... it was, effectively a quotation, not any sort of plagiarism... with a link to this thread.
2) How anyone, let alone a random health insurance adjuster with lots of files on his desk, very little time, and no experience on this strange tribe.net site, would connect my post with NYC's friend's situation is beyond me. I have no idea who NYC was talking about, and I spend an aweful lot of time on tribe.net... there are millions of messages there.
Just to complete the loop (what I consider to be a closed loop, as I still don't know anything about NYC's friend's situation) here's a link to the tribe thread:
https://sanfrancisco.tribe.net/thread/a04...7a-80baf6211d43
So please let's not over-react here. That said, I'm sorry, I probably should have asked first. I had no idea that NYC had a REAL reason not to post on tribe, and that was insensitive of me.
Brits take note: while apologies are common in England, they are very rare in America. For example, while the London Underground may apologise for the weather or for engineering works, no American company would apologize for those things because they might be construed as admitting fault and open them up for liability.
I will acknowledge that part of my reaction is due to my personal sensitivity... on a site dominated by Brits, with threads like "Why are all the cool spinners in the UK, and not in the US?" I tend to have a bit of a chip on my shoulder to begin with. And for what it's worth, I'd say NYC is somewhere between me and The Approving Ninja in terms of Britishness, which is to say significantly more British than your average American (context: I have a British G/F, Approving Ninja is American ex-pat living in the UK). So my emotional reaction was that he was distancing himself further from "American spinning" by dissing our fuel. Silly and ridiculous to uber-rational people, I know, but I embrace my emotionalness (does that sound too hippy-dippy for this site?).
To be completely fair, there isn't a lot of overt anti-Americanism here... and a lot of the overt stuff is directed at the Bush Administration (I didn't vote for him!)... but there is definitely a big British dominance here... lots of chatter about what happened at the pub the other night, references to British culture, and generally things that are considered friendly that would seem alien to your average American. Likewise, normal American behavior would seem alien to many Brits. There really isn't anything you can DO about it... that's just the way things are.
To return to the issue of fuel... I generally recommend that newbies stay away from white gas. If I didn't spin as often and as much as I do, I would use something else -- but since I DO spin as often as I do, I use white gas.
I see lighting myself on fire as being like the nasty falls that you see skateboarders take... it's a hazard, but it's not one that stops me from doing what I do. Some skateboarders still choose to skate without pads or helmets -- I choose to spin with white gas.
Let me frame this again for you guys. I spin fire EVERY Tuesday and Sunday, and sometimes 2 or 3 more times during the week. Sometimes I light up 10 times in one night. At this rate, soot marks and stinky fuel becomes an issue... because I have to go into shops and restaurants to get food on the way home... because I have to be able to do this without washing my clothes after every burn or dedicating one outfit to spinning fire. Because my car already stinks enough of fuel as it is without using Kero. Because if I used Kero I'd be burning for 10-15 minutes each time. Because, as Cole pointed out, this is the cheapest and easiest to attain fuel. There are lots of reasons to use this fuel.
I don't know how to explain to you guys the degree of additional hazard that comes with using white gas. You WILL light your clothes on fire... but really what you're doing is lighting the patch of fuel on your clothes on fire. Unless you're wearing something easy to light (ie loose weave, fuzzy cotton) you have some time to put out the fire before anything happens to you or your clothes. To give you some context, people who have worked in crowded professional kitchens get many more burns than I do. That doesn't mean they stop cooking.
Talk about emotional reactions...
1) My cross-posting was attributed to NYC... it was, effectively a quotation, not any sort of plagiarism... with a link to this thread.
2) How anyone, let alone a random health insurance adjuster with lots of files on his desk, very little time, and no experience on this strange tribe.net site, would connect my post with NYC's friend's situation is beyond me. I have no idea who NYC was talking about, and I spend an aweful lot of time on tribe.net... there are millions of messages there.
Just to complete the loop (what I consider to be a closed loop, as I still don't know anything about NYC's friend's situation) here's a link to the tribe thread:
https://sanfrancisco.tribe.net/thread/a04...7a-80baf6211d43
So please let's not over-react here. That said, I'm sorry, I probably should have asked first. I had no idea that NYC had a REAL reason not to post on tribe, and that was insensitive of me.
Brits take note: while apologies are common in England, they are very rare in America. For example, while the London Underground may apologise for the weather or for engineering works, no American company would apologize for those things because they might be construed as admitting fault and open them up for liability.
I will acknowledge that part of my reaction is due to my personal sensitivity... on a site dominated by Brits, with threads like "Why are all the cool spinners in the UK, and not in the US?" I tend to have a bit of a chip on my shoulder to begin with. And for what it's worth, I'd say NYC is somewhere between me and The Approving Ninja in terms of Britishness, which is to say significantly more British than your average American (context: I have a British G/F, Approving Ninja is American ex-pat living in the UK). So my emotional reaction was that he was distancing himself further from "American spinning" by dissing our fuel. Silly and ridiculous to uber-rational people, I know, but I embrace my emotionalness (does that sound too hippy-dippy for this site?).
To be completely fair, there isn't a lot of overt anti-Americanism here... and a lot of the overt stuff is directed at the Bush Administration (I didn't vote for him!)... but there is definitely a big British dominance here... lots of chatter about what happened at the pub the other night, references to British culture, and generally things that are considered friendly that would seem alien to your average American. Likewise, normal American behavior would seem alien to many Brits. There really isn't anything you can DO about it... that's just the way things are.
To return to the issue of fuel... I generally recommend that newbies stay away from white gas. If I didn't spin as often and as much as I do, I would use something else -- but since I DO spin as often as I do, I use white gas.
I see lighting myself on fire as being like the nasty falls that you see skateboarders take... it's a hazard, but it's not one that stops me from doing what I do. Some skateboarders still choose to skate without pads or helmets -- I choose to spin with white gas.
Let me frame this again for you guys. I spin fire EVERY Tuesday and Sunday, and sometimes 2 or 3 more times during the week. Sometimes I light up 10 times in one night. At this rate, soot marks and stinky fuel becomes an issue... because I have to go into shops and restaurants to get food on the way home... because I have to be able to do this without washing my clothes after every burn or dedicating one outfit to spinning fire. Because my car already stinks enough of fuel as it is without using Kero. Because if I used Kero I'd be burning for 10-15 minutes each time. Because, as Cole pointed out, this is the cheapest and easiest to attain fuel. There are lots of reasons to use this fuel.
I don't know how to explain to you guys the degree of additional hazard that comes with using white gas. You WILL light your clothes on fire... but really what you're doing is lighting the patch of fuel on your clothes on fire. Unless you're wearing something easy to light (ie loose weave, fuzzy cotton) you have some time to put out the fire before anything happens to you or your clothes. To give you some context, people who have worked in crowded professional kitchens get many more burns than I do. That doesn't mean they stop cooking.
SILVER Member
with added berries
1,365 posts
Location: Manchester, England (UK)
with added berries
1,365 posts
Location: Manchester, England (UK)
Posted:
obviously there is no such thing as a safe fuel, it, by definition, is dangerous.
There are however, some fuels that are safer than others, ie ones that are less volitile than others, and that burn at lower temperatures. Therefore you should always use the safest fuel available to you, that is suitable for what you are using it for.
You should also, of course, use it in the safest possible way, and always have respet for it. This is why I am very careful about the clothes I wear when I spin, and never, ever do wraps with lit fire poi, and only do moves i am comfortable with. Wherever possible I will spin with a saftey, but unfortunately this is not always possible. When I'm at home and I spin in my backgarden, I know my dad is close by and keep the door open so I could shout if I got into trouble.
No matter how many of the above saftey precations you take, if you don't respect the fire, then you will get into serious trouble. This is why it alarms me when people talk casually about setting themselves on fire, it may be small this time, but next time could be huge. Even more alarming is when you hear people boasting about how they set themselves on fire (not HOPpers). But thankfully, you don't hear that to often.
obviously there is no such thing as a safe fuel, it, by definition, is dangerous.
There are however, some fuels that are safer than others, ie ones that are less volitile than others, and that burn at lower temperatures. Therefore you should always use the safest fuel available to you, that is suitable for what you are using it for.
You should also, of course, use it in the safest possible way, and always have respet for it. This is why I am very careful about the clothes I wear when I spin, and never, ever do wraps with lit fire poi, and only do moves i am comfortable with. Wherever possible I will spin with a saftey, but unfortunately this is not always possible. When I'm at home and I spin in my backgarden, I know my dad is close by and keep the door open so I could shout if I got into trouble.
No matter how many of the above saftey precations you take, if you don't respect the fire, then you will get into serious trouble. This is why it alarms me when people talk casually about setting themselves on fire, it may be small this time, but next time could be huge. Even more alarming is when you hear people boasting about how they set themselves on fire (not HOPpers). But thankfully, you don't hear that to often.
Live like there is no tomorrow,
dance like nobody is watching
and hula hoop like wiggling will save the world.
“What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.”
Ralph Waldo Emerson
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
What you have failed to mention here is the situation as well. IF you are spinning indoors or on a wooden stage, then white gas is the safest option available. Indoors, it's the one that will give the least amount of smoke. On a wooden stage, it's the one that won't make the stage slippery and cause you to fall on your ass because you like to dance.
I regularly use white gas and regularly spin on a wooden stage. I've got the fuel in a metal container, it's well over 50ft. from the stage, and I've got the safety person trained in putting me out if the need arises. I teach all the newbies who use white gas to spin in this fashion and the reasons for using white gas vs. lamp oil in such a situation.
Also, something else to note is that I have frequently sold stores out of lamp oil. In doing so, they often fail to resupply themselves in a timely manner...i.e. I need more lamp oil before they have ordered more and can no longer find any place selling it. I think that is common in the states as well. I have never seen a camping store sell out of white gas though, no matter how much or how often I buy it.
Written by: onewheeldave
I wouldn't judge a white gas user as 'wrong', or 'bad'; but I will judge them as people who are not particularly interested in minimising the risk as much as they could.
They can use metal fuel cans with lids, positioned 20 yards away from the fire spinning, and have full safety gear and a spotter- they'll then be doing a great job of cutting down the risk. However, they could if they wished, cut it down further by switching to the safer fuel.
It's up to them, they're not 'bad' or 'wrong', simply not being as safe as they could be.
There's no reason to feel insulted by someone saying that you're not using the safest fuel, when you are in fact, not using the safest fuel.
What you have failed to mention here is the situation as well. IF you are spinning indoors or on a wooden stage, then white gas is the safest option available. Indoors, it's the one that will give the least amount of smoke. On a wooden stage, it's the one that won't make the stage slippery and cause you to fall on your ass because you like to dance.
I regularly use white gas and regularly spin on a wooden stage. I've got the fuel in a metal container, it's well over 50ft. from the stage, and I've got the safety person trained in putting me out if the need arises. I teach all the newbies who use white gas to spin in this fashion and the reasons for using white gas vs. lamp oil in such a situation.
Also, something else to note is that I have frequently sold stores out of lamp oil. In doing so, they often fail to resupply themselves in a timely manner...i.e. I need more lamp oil before they have ordered more and can no longer find any place selling it. I think that is common in the states as well. I have never seen a camping store sell out of white gas though, no matter how much or how often I buy it.
SILVER Member
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Posted:
Because we keep stepping on each others toes here are some analogies.
Why lead rock climb when you can top roap? You still get up the rock, but much safer
Why scuba dive when you can snorkle you still see lots of fish?
Why jump out of a perfectly good plane, even if you have safety precautions (parachute)?
Cluture cluture culture, were never going to get anywhere because we just don't understand each other.
Because we keep stepping on each others toes here are some analogies.
Why lead rock climb when you can top roap? You still get up the rock, but much safer
Written by:
obviously there is no such thing as a safe fuel, it, by definition, is dangerous.
There are however, some fuels that are safer than others, ie ones that are less volitile than others, and that burn at lower temperatures. Therefore you should always use the safest fuel available to you, that is suitable for what you are using it for.
Why scuba dive when you can snorkle you still see lots of fish?
Why jump out of a perfectly good plane, even if you have safety precautions (parachute)?
Written by:
It's up to them, they're not 'bad' or 'wrong', simply not being as safe as they could be.
Cluture cluture culture, were never going to get anywhere because we just don't understand each other.
Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
And....
if you do lead rock climb, would you prefer to use good climbing rope that hasn't been abused, or will you go for some old stuff that's possibly taken a fall or two?
If you scuba dive, will you use safety tested equipment, or some dodgy old tanks of dubious origin?
When you jump out of a perfectly good plane, would you rather your chute had been packed by an expert, or would you prefer an idiot did it?
Whichever of those risky activities I chose to do, I would ensure that I minimised (not eliminated as that is not possible) the risk.
And, IMO, those analogies are more in line with the issue of fuel choice, than the ones you gave, because the question on this thread is not about complete avoidance of a risky activity (fire-spinning), but more about ensuring that risk is minimised.
Written by: Cody
Because we keep stepping on each others toes here are some analogies.
Why lead rock climb when you can top roap? You still get up the rock, but much safer ...................
Why scuba dive when you can snorkle you still see lots of fish?
Why jump out of a perfectly good plane, even if you have safety precautions (parachute)?
And....
if you do lead rock climb, would you prefer to use good climbing rope that hasn't been abused, or will you go for some old stuff that's possibly taken a fall or two?
If you scuba dive, will you use safety tested equipment, or some dodgy old tanks of dubious origin?
When you jump out of a perfectly good plane, would you rather your chute had been packed by an expert, or would you prefer an idiot did it?
Whichever of those risky activities I chose to do, I would ensure that I minimised (not eliminated as that is not possible) the risk.
And, IMO, those analogies are more in line with the issue of fuel choice, than the ones you gave, because the question on this thread is not about complete avoidance of a risky activity (fire-spinning), but more about ensuring that risk is minimised.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
enthusiast
328 posts
Location: uk
328 posts
Location: uk
Posted:
Without trying to sound too confrontational, what is the point of this thread, beyond that of self posturing on fuel use. I use, teach and perform with a variety of fuels, generally matching req's to fuel types etc these include parafin(s), white spirit(s), methylated spirit, lamp oil, barbique fluid, and yes white gass. Each have their uses, and if you do find yourself working outside the UK it's highly necessary to have an operational idea of different fuel types.
mark
Without trying to sound too confrontational, what is the point of this thread, beyond that of self posturing on fuel use. I use, teach and perform with a variety of fuels, generally matching req's to fuel types etc these include parafin(s), white spirit(s), methylated spirit, lamp oil, barbique fluid, and yes white gass. Each have their uses, and if you do find yourself working outside the UK it's highly necessary to have an operational idea of different fuel types.
mark
SILVER Member
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Posted:
Ok OWD now your saying (implying) I'm wrong and I'm offended. Your completely missing my point. You do your thing and I'll keep doing mine. I wouldn't expect you to understand my fire performance practices.
Ok OWD now your saying (implying) I'm wrong and I'm offended. Your completely missing my point. You do your thing and I'll keep doing mine. I wouldn't expect you to understand my fire performance practices.
Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Cody, I don't disagree with your choice to use white gas, and I do not think you're wrong.
I disagree strongly with certain arguments and analogies prevalent on safety threads that go along the lines of 'nothing is 100% safe' (and therefore unnecessary risk taking is fine).
Your analogies above seemed to be implying something along those lines- if they weren't, then I misunderstood; then again, so will others, so I stand by the alternative analogies I posted in response.
There was no offence meant and I apologise if it came across that way.
I've just re-read some of your posts and again I say, i do not think you're 'bad', or 'wrong'.
Obviously there's reasons why you use gas, because of your act and the rather extreme fire toys you use. It does seem that, in your case, white gas is no only better, but probably vital.
However, as I'm sure you realise, your toys and act are quite extreme- you are vastly out-numbered by all the newbies and hobbyist fire spinners who basically take an unnecessary risk by using white gas.
My priority is that those newbies and hobbyist spinners deserve all the necessary facts to make safe decisions about their spinning, and that very much includes any negative aspects of white gas.
White gasis not the safest fuel to use, and people have been badly hurt unnecessarily in using it.
That does not reflect whatsoever on what you do.
Cody, I don't disagree with your choice to use white gas, and I do not think you're wrong.
I disagree strongly with certain arguments and analogies prevalent on safety threads that go along the lines of 'nothing is 100% safe' (and therefore unnecessary risk taking is fine).
Your analogies above seemed to be implying something along those lines- if they weren't, then I misunderstood; then again, so will others, so I stand by the alternative analogies I posted in response.
There was no offence meant and I apologise if it came across that way.
I've just re-read some of your posts and again I say, i do not think you're 'bad', or 'wrong'.
Obviously there's reasons why you use gas, because of your act and the rather extreme fire toys you use. It does seem that, in your case, white gas is no only better, but probably vital.
However, as I'm sure you realise, your toys and act are quite extreme- you are vastly out-numbered by all the newbies and hobbyist fire spinners who basically take an unnecessary risk by using white gas.
My priority is that those newbies and hobbyist spinners deserve all the necessary facts to make safe decisions about their spinning, and that very much includes any negative aspects of white gas.
White gasis not the safest fuel to use, and people have been badly hurt unnecessarily in using it.
That does not reflect whatsoever on what you do.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
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