Forums > Social Discussion > Please do a search
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Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
I have noticed that lately there seems to be an abundance of duplicate threads popping up, due to the fact that people dont bother to do a search or dont refine the search enough to find the threads.
There was a thread that was started the other day that had 5 duplicate threads. I mean thats really a waste of time and resources on the board.
Please guys take the time to do a search, its incredibly frusterating for the people who have been here for a while to see the same threads pop up all the time, and very confronting for a newbie to be told to do a search.
Thanks!! Youse rock
I have noticed that lately there seems to be an abundance of duplicate threads popping up, due to the fact that people dont bother to do a search or dont refine the search enough to find the threads.
There was a thread that was started the other day that had 5 duplicate threads. I mean thats really a waste of time and resources on the board.
Please guys take the time to do a search, its incredibly frusterating for the people who have been here for a while to see the same threads pop up all the time, and very confronting for a newbie to be told to do a search.
Thanks!! Youse rock
TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"
SILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
polarity you rock... those are great tips...
polarity you rock... those are great tips...
TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
i can't remember the last time i saw a mod reply to a duplicate post or give directions to help a newbie search for what they required - very possibly there is loads of this going on behind the scenes but as far as i can tell, most of that kind of moderation is left up to the members.
if there is loads of mod intervention that we can't see, on top of all of us lot saying 'do a durbs' and providing links to old threads, that means this is a even bigger problem than it looks - that only adds to the argument for the need for a 'common thread' article
it would mean that instead of waiting for kind members to reply to a duplicate post with directions to threads that already exist and leaving that duplicate thread to further clog up the board with useless search results (as happens at the moment), instead we could just click the report post button and a mod could then delete the thread and privately direct the person to the appropriate links in the 'common thread' article.
need a volunteer?
i'd be more than happy to build on what simian has done in poi moves and write a common thread article for each forum.
but like i said, i'm not going to do a load of work if the attitude of the site admin is "nice idea but it'll never work - just keep pressing the button."
but for now, that is what i shall start doing
cole. x
i can't remember the last time i saw a mod reply to a duplicate post or give directions to help a newbie search for what they required - very possibly there is loads of this going on behind the scenes but as far as i can tell, most of that kind of moderation is left up to the members.
if there is loads of mod intervention that we can't see, on top of all of us lot saying 'do a durbs' and providing links to old threads, that means this is a even bigger problem than it looks - that only adds to the argument for the need for a 'common thread' article
it would mean that instead of waiting for kind members to reply to a duplicate post with directions to threads that already exist and leaving that duplicate thread to further clog up the board with useless search results (as happens at the moment), instead we could just click the report post button and a mod could then delete the thread and privately direct the person to the appropriate links in the 'common thread' article.
need a volunteer?
i'd be more than happy to build on what simian has done in poi moves and write a common thread article for each forum.
but like i said, i'm not going to do a load of work if the attitude of the site admin is "nice idea but it'll never work - just keep pressing the button."
but for now, that is what i shall start doing
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
You the man. As I have previously stated.
You the man. As I have previously stated.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,942 posts
Location: London, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,942 posts
Location: London, UK
Posted:
Thanks polarity
maybe instead of moving the advanced search button just label it advanced search? maybe with a link below the search bar as well?
perhaps it would be helpful if we try and bump the more common threads (maybe using the key words of the thread rather than bump) so that when searches are run they turn up quicker? just a thought :P
Thanks polarity
maybe instead of moving the advanced search button just label it advanced search? maybe with a link below the search bar as well?
perhaps it would be helpful if we try and bump the more common threads (maybe using the key words of the thread rather than bump) so that when searches are run they turn up quicker? just a thought :P
back
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
It seems like we're asking for a lot.
Maybe, rather than lumping it all on the Mods, we could have some "Submoderator/Librarian" type person with no actual Mod power but who could post links and stear newbies in the right direction.
I always feel a bit awkward posting things like that because I feel that it's not my place. But if someone decided to step up and be dubbed a 'newbie wrangler' then they could do it with out feeling guilty.
As a side note, I think it's really strange that the sentiment of this thread is "We need more moderation" yet more often than not, when the mods do step in they get called 'facist' and... wait... what was that good one that Flash got called. "Blood sucking" something or other.
I'd be sad to see the mods take on a more active role and then be shouted at for being 'Nazis' by people simultaneously insulting the mods and the plight of the Jews killed in the holocaust.
But then again, that's pretty much 99% of the internet anyway.
It seems like we're asking for a lot.
Maybe, rather than lumping it all on the Mods, we could have some "Submoderator/Librarian" type person with no actual Mod power but who could post links and stear newbies in the right direction.
I always feel a bit awkward posting things like that because I feel that it's not my place. But if someone decided to step up and be dubbed a 'newbie wrangler' then they could do it with out feeling guilty.
As a side note, I think it's really strange that the sentiment of this thread is "We need more moderation" yet more often than not, when the mods do step in they get called 'facist' and... wait... what was that good one that Flash got called. "Blood sucking" something or other.
I'd be sad to see the mods take on a more active role and then be shouted at for being 'Nazis' by people simultaneously insulting the mods and the plight of the Jews killed in the holocaust.
But then again, that's pretty much 99% of the internet anyway.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,136 posts
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,136 posts
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom
Posted:
The most ironic thing is that I've already pointed out that this is a duplicate thread, and no one seems to care........
The most ironic thing is that I've already pointed out that this is a duplicate thread, and no one seems to care........
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
hihihi... proves the point, doesn't it
hihihi... proves the point, doesn't it
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
I don't think it's started out as a reduntant thread. Valura was reacting to "recent" problems she saw.
Besides, I like Mr. Chutney's wording in another post...
So it's not a duplicate post, it's just a 'crosspost'. It sounds so much cooler.
But yes, the irony is there.
Written by: flid
The most ironic thing is that I've already pointed out that this is a duplicate thread, and no one seems to care........
I don't think it's started out as a reduntant thread. Valura was reacting to "recent" problems she saw.
Besides, I like Mr. Chutney's wording in another post...
Written by:
sorry if a cross post has occurred.
So it's not a duplicate post, it's just a 'crosspost'. It sounds so much cooler.
But yes, the irony is there.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,136 posts
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,136 posts
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom
Posted:
a crosspost is where you post simultaneously the exact same message to 2 boards/forums/newsgroups
a crosspost is where you post simultaneously the exact same message to 2 boards/forums/newsgroups
GOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Posted:
i thought it was the diagonal bit that runs across a wooden gate?
i thought it was the diagonal bit that runs across a wooden gate?
Love is the law.
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Cole bumped up this thread in Poi Moves by Simian:
[Old link]
It's a perfect example of someone playing the part of 'librarian' without needing any Mod powers.
Well done.
Cole bumped up this thread in Poi Moves by Simian:
[Old link]
It's a perfect example of someone playing the part of 'librarian' without needing any Mod powers.
Well done.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
simian's thread is a great example - unless we bump it every few days, it is quickly forgotten about.
i said that on the last page - its disappointing that work like that goes to waste because it is left up to the members to sort out themselves.
i don't think we are asking for much at all - i certainly wasn't asking the mods to do any more work
all i was asking for was an easy-to-point-to permanent and updatable article containing links to commonly duplicated threads (i've even offered to help write it!).
the main advantage being that duplicate threads could be deleted immediately rather than pseudo-moderated by friendly hoppers with knowledge of past threads (and then simply left to clog up the board).
the point is not that this would prevent duplicate threads, but it would give the mods the ability to say "we will delete this duplicate thread and point the author to the links article".
i agree that the search function works fine - its the multitude of similarly named posts about popular subjects that renders it useless.
if you don't perceive this as a problem i recommend that you try searching for help on say, a move you don't know the name of in poi moves, and see how far you get...
it makes me sad that the main point of the board (was) to share moves and techniques, but nowdays the moves section is almost impossible to find good information in, unless you know what is there already...
still, i'm not going to push any more for this - if the idea is not considered to be worth undertaking by the site admin then that is that and i accept it.
:apathysmiley:
cole. x
simian's thread is a great example - unless we bump it every few days, it is quickly forgotten about.
i said that on the last page - its disappointing that work like that goes to waste because it is left up to the members to sort out themselves.
i don't think we are asking for much at all - i certainly wasn't asking the mods to do any more work
all i was asking for was an easy-to-point-to permanent and updatable article containing links to commonly duplicated threads (i've even offered to help write it!).
the main advantage being that duplicate threads could be deleted immediately rather than pseudo-moderated by friendly hoppers with knowledge of past threads (and then simply left to clog up the board).
the point is not that this would prevent duplicate threads, but it would give the mods the ability to say "we will delete this duplicate thread and point the author to the links article".
i agree that the search function works fine - its the multitude of similarly named posts about popular subjects that renders it useless.
if you don't perceive this as a problem i recommend that you try searching for help on say, a move you don't know the name of in poi moves, and see how far you get...
it makes me sad that the main point of the board (was) to share moves and techniques, but nowdays the moves section is almost impossible to find good information in, unless you know what is there already...
still, i'm not going to push any more for this - if the idea is not considered to be worth undertaking by the site admin then that is that and i accept it.
:apathysmiley:
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Let's see...Coleman...anytime anyone questions the mods we come in and say..yes, we do craploads more than you will ever know. To the point where I am tired of saying it. And that is the point, you don't need to know.
So, let's see...if all the locking-redirecting that is done publically goes unnoticed, and the fact that I have personally addressed several newbies, mostly through PM so as to avoid any feeling of public persecution is concidered doing nothing, then fine..I do nothing. And that is the small end of what goes on.
Actually...I have to say that it isn't the thread that is redundant, because this one seemed to go further than the other, which is why it is left open. Simply because a topic is repetitive does not always mean it will be shut down. There are alot of factors that go into determining what gets shut, moved, recycled or deleted altogether, which is why we ask for an alert and then decide the course of action.
And because I am a person, with feelings, frustrations and a busy life outside of HoP, I am going to take a deep breath and say this as nicely as possible...
I am really quite sick of this.
A few months ago I was getting PM's and emails telling me to die, calling me names and both Flash Fire and I came under fire publically for doing our jobs here, which we do out of love and voluntarily. Nothing since has changed...nothing, except that most of the member bickering has died down, and now we are not doing enough? Suddenly because you don't take notice, of us we are not doing our job? Suddenly others know what we do better than we, who created the jobs and rules? Perhaps you don't notice because we are doing our jobs well.
This is, overall, one of the most peaceful kingdoms on the net, and you know what, I can honestly say it isn't always because our members just happen to be that way. Keep that in mind the next time you decide to say we are not doing our jobs. I am beginning to feel that when it has been peacable too long then someone needs to create issues...and it tends gets pointed at the mods.
Give me a break.
Oh, and I know what will be coming next..."Pele, I think you are over-reacting..I didn't mean..." But you know what? Look at the many posts above this one, all of which are, quite frankly, insulting to what we do. Without understanding of all of what goes into things, and you shouldn't have to which is why the mods are here, many of you have passed a judgement that we are not doing our job by allowing this thread to stay open or because other members beat us to the punch more often than not....and that is bullcrap.
No, I assure you that my tone in all this is quite firm and calm, and I am not over reacting.
And how often do you see anyone "wait for a kind member"? More often than not, a member takes care of it long before a mod has seen the thread. We never asked people to do this, you simply do, and we appreciate it but do not then use it against us to accuse us of not doing our jobs.
Yes, there is always tweaking that needs to be done, and I even admitted the search function can be a pain. Yup.
Thank Polarity for the tips...I think that itself should be made into it's own sticky post at the top of each forum, if only to remind me of the many ways to use it
If you want some kind of cluster thread Cole, fine, have fun. But I am telling you what I have noticed over the past several years of working here...newbies will continue to ask, not just out of naivete and curiousity but to create their own identity here and to have their own posts. Trust me, we get 1001 reasons for it when we pm them. It's just the way it goes. The search function was put up years ago to solve this same issue, and we see how often that works, even without it being difficult.
I am sorry you don't like hearing it, but I really don't seeing your idea working to the effect that I am sure many hope it will.
Right now the only public problem is that people and the search function are not melding well, and a solution needs to be found, and some of the ideas here have been really strong but in the end, that is the issue, not that we are not doing our jobs. Don't make it into more than what it is.
Let's see...Coleman...anytime anyone questions the mods we come in and say..yes, we do craploads more than you will ever know. To the point where I am tired of saying it. And that is the point, you don't need to know.
So, let's see...if all the locking-redirecting that is done publically goes unnoticed, and the fact that I have personally addressed several newbies, mostly through PM so as to avoid any feeling of public persecution is concidered doing nothing, then fine..I do nothing. And that is the small end of what goes on.
Actually...I have to say that it isn't the thread that is redundant, because this one seemed to go further than the other, which is why it is left open. Simply because a topic is repetitive does not always mean it will be shut down. There are alot of factors that go into determining what gets shut, moved, recycled or deleted altogether, which is why we ask for an alert and then decide the course of action.
And because I am a person, with feelings, frustrations and a busy life outside of HoP, I am going to take a deep breath and say this as nicely as possible...
I am really quite sick of this.
A few months ago I was getting PM's and emails telling me to die, calling me names and both Flash Fire and I came under fire publically for doing our jobs here, which we do out of love and voluntarily. Nothing since has changed...nothing, except that most of the member bickering has died down, and now we are not doing enough? Suddenly because you don't take notice, of us we are not doing our job? Suddenly others know what we do better than we, who created the jobs and rules? Perhaps you don't notice because we are doing our jobs well.
This is, overall, one of the most peaceful kingdoms on the net, and you know what, I can honestly say it isn't always because our members just happen to be that way. Keep that in mind the next time you decide to say we are not doing our jobs. I am beginning to feel that when it has been peacable too long then someone needs to create issues...and it tends gets pointed at the mods.
Give me a break.
Oh, and I know what will be coming next..."Pele, I think you are over-reacting..I didn't mean..." But you know what? Look at the many posts above this one, all of which are, quite frankly, insulting to what we do. Without understanding of all of what goes into things, and you shouldn't have to which is why the mods are here, many of you have passed a judgement that we are not doing our job by allowing this thread to stay open or because other members beat us to the punch more often than not....and that is bullcrap.
No, I assure you that my tone in all this is quite firm and calm, and I am not over reacting.
And how often do you see anyone "wait for a kind member"? More often than not, a member takes care of it long before a mod has seen the thread. We never asked people to do this, you simply do, and we appreciate it but do not then use it against us to accuse us of not doing our jobs.
Yes, there is always tweaking that needs to be done, and I even admitted the search function can be a pain. Yup.
Thank Polarity for the tips...I think that itself should be made into it's own sticky post at the top of each forum, if only to remind me of the many ways to use it
If you want some kind of cluster thread Cole, fine, have fun. But I am telling you what I have noticed over the past several years of working here...newbies will continue to ask, not just out of naivete and curiousity but to create their own identity here and to have their own posts. Trust me, we get 1001 reasons for it when we pm them. It's just the way it goes. The search function was put up years ago to solve this same issue, and we see how often that works, even without it being difficult.
I am sorry you don't like hearing it, but I really don't seeing your idea working to the effect that I am sure many hope it will.
Right now the only public problem is that people and the search function are not melding well, and a solution needs to be found, and some of the ideas here have been really strong but in the end, that is the issue, not that we are not doing our jobs. Don't make it into more than what it is.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
So far I've always found what I was looking for in the poi moves section, maybe because I'm more used to internet searches than the average user or maybe because I don't give up if the first try doesn't give me what I want, or maybe because my move repertoire is still quite limited. But hey, usually if someone starts a thread with "I've done a search and haven't found anything" replies tend to be very civil, even if there have been related threads three years (or days) ago. And newbies getting things wrong is normal, that's why they're newbies, so why get agitated about that? Just please stop confusing them by saying "do a Durbs", the first time I read that I had to search for Durbs
Written by: coleman
if you don't perceive this as a problem i recommend that you try searching for help on say, a move you don't know the name of in poi moves, and see how far you get...
So far I've always found what I was looking for in the poi moves section, maybe because I'm more used to internet searches than the average user or maybe because I don't give up if the first try doesn't give me what I want, or maybe because my move repertoire is still quite limited. But hey, usually if someone starts a thread with "I've done a search and haven't found anything" replies tend to be very civil, even if there have been related threads three years (or days) ago. And newbies getting things wrong is normal, that's why they're newbies, so why get agitated about that? Just please stop confusing them by saying "do a Durbs", the first time I read that I had to search for Durbs
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
Should this not be in social discussion now?
Theres nothing frivolous or chatty about these posts.
You can tell. Theres lots of words.
Should this not be in social discussion now?
Theres nothing frivolous or chatty about these posts.
You can tell. Theres lots of words.
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
pele - please point out to me where (in any of my posts since the day i joined hop) i said you are "not doing enough" or "weren't doing your jobs properly".
i have never publically criticised the mods *ever*.
where exactly are the 'insults' in this thread?
in fact, i even give you permission to dig out and post publically those pm's that i have allegedly sent you and the other mods calling you names and saying you are rubbish.
you presume to state that i think you are 'doing nothing' when i have said nothing of the sort.
i am not asking you to do more work or less work or anything different at all really.
i am making suggestions for making the site more accessable for new and old users alike and (hopefully) subsequently a little easier for everyone to search and for you guys to moderate.
i like hop and i care about what happens to it.
so shoot me.
either you don't get what i'm talking about (because what i'm asking for would mean exactly zero change in the workload of the admin team and has little or nothing to do with what the moderators do/your workload) or i'm completely wasting my time because the site admin team have already thought of this, discussed it and decided its a bad idea already.
but in the interest of an open, non-conclusive discussion, i will try to explain what i am addressing one last time:
===
i am concerned that the ratio of threads with good information vs threads that have a similar title but no useful information is moving fast in the wrong dirction.
the older the board gets, the more threads will be posted that are titled something like "5 beat weave help" and the more useless the search results become.
these posts will never stop - i accept that.
but if we had a list of links to commonly posted threads with good information, we have an opportunity to freeze the problem as it is now.
===
that's it.
if you read this and it seems to say "the mods aren't doing their jobs/enough work/anything right", i'm obviously writing things i don't mean to and i apologise.
to be honest, i am a bit upset that a suggestion of an improvement to the site, made publically, has been met first with a flat dismissal and now with a defensive post that amounts to "this suggestion is a blatent insult to the moderators! we do our jobs, you don't know what we do so shut up."
and since you asked so nicely, i will.
you said "don't make it into more than what it is."
i think that's my line now.
cole. x
pele - please point out to me where (in any of my posts since the day i joined hop) i said you are "not doing enough" or "weren't doing your jobs properly".
i have never publically criticised the mods *ever*.
where exactly are the 'insults' in this thread?
in fact, i even give you permission to dig out and post publically those pm's that i have allegedly sent you and the other mods calling you names and saying you are rubbish.
you presume to state that i think you are 'doing nothing' when i have said nothing of the sort.
i am not asking you to do more work or less work or anything different at all really.
i am making suggestions for making the site more accessable for new and old users alike and (hopefully) subsequently a little easier for everyone to search and for you guys to moderate.
i like hop and i care about what happens to it.
so shoot me.
either you don't get what i'm talking about (because what i'm asking for would mean exactly zero change in the workload of the admin team and has little or nothing to do with what the moderators do/your workload) or i'm completely wasting my time because the site admin team have already thought of this, discussed it and decided its a bad idea already.
but in the interest of an open, non-conclusive discussion, i will try to explain what i am addressing one last time:
===
i am concerned that the ratio of threads with good information vs threads that have a similar title but no useful information is moving fast in the wrong dirction.
the older the board gets, the more threads will be posted that are titled something like "5 beat weave help" and the more useless the search results become.
these posts will never stop - i accept that.
but if we had a list of links to commonly posted threads with good information, we have an opportunity to freeze the problem as it is now.
===
that's it.
if you read this and it seems to say "the mods aren't doing their jobs/enough work/anything right", i'm obviously writing things i don't mean to and i apologise.
to be honest, i am a bit upset that a suggestion of an improvement to the site, made publically, has been met first with a flat dismissal and now with a defensive post that amounts to "this suggestion is a blatent insult to the moderators! we do our jobs, you don't know what we do so shut up."
and since you asked so nicely, i will.
you said "don't make it into more than what it is."
i think that's my line now.
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Hmmm Coleman. This sounds to me like you are saying we are not doing our jobs...in fact, you even went so far as to say it's problematic. That is what I call public criticism, and the insuation that we don't do enough simply because you can't see it *is* insulting.
Yes UCOF..it is being moved.
Written by: coleman
i can't remember the last time i saw a mod reply to a duplicate post or give directions to help a newbie search for what they required - very possibly there is loads of this going on behind the scenes but as far as i can tell, most of that kind of moderation is left up to the members.
if there is loads of mod intervention that we can't see, on top of all of us lot saying 'do a durbs' and providing links to old threads, that means this is a even bigger problem than it looks - that only adds to the argument for the need for a 'common thread' article
cole. x
Hmmm Coleman. This sounds to me like you are saying we are not doing our jobs...in fact, you even went so far as to say it's problematic. That is what I call public criticism, and the insuation that we don't do enough simply because you can't see it *is* insulting.
Yes UCOF..it is being moved.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Posted:
*lays out tea and biscuits*
Looks like we're in for the long haul here
I'm going to do bullet point, because they're easier for others to pick apart:
All of these are preceded by "In my opinion..."
1. The fact we don't notice the moderation, only the great atmosphere on the site is testimony to how good a job the mods are doing. If it was over-moderated, you'd notice, if it was under-moderated, you'd notice.
2. I think any post which is a blatant duplicate (for whatever reason) should have a "Please search for this" reply pasted, then the thread should be deleted entirely a week later to prevent them coming up in searches.
2a. It might be worth someone even going as far as running common searches and deleting all old threads which contain no useful info or repeated info. But yes, I know this would be HUGELY time consuming, but I'm sure the main "culprit" threads could be done.
3. I don't think "Do a search" should be applied in Social Chat or Social Discussion except for music, "What are peoples faveourite..." and other similair threads. This means the newbies can still post to help announce themselves on the forum.
4. Rather than saying "Do a search/Durbs" if the person is blatantly new (i.e. less than 10 posts) do it for them, and provide links to the helpful threads in your reply. It's friendlier, shows them the search function works and shows them the wealth of info they can discover with it.
5. I don't think "stickies" are the solution, purely because 80% of people don't read them. Not saying they shouldn't be created, but I don't think they should be heralded as the ultimate solution.
5a. If "stickies" were to be created - there shouldn't be too many. I think one for links of all moves, and also one saying "what's this move called?" so people can then do a search for it themselves. Ohterwise you risk having 73 stickies.
6. I think Pele (and all the mods) do an incredible job
7. I don't think "Under-Mods" (or whatever) are necessary. I think those who would be suitable, do it anyway.
8. I'm hungry
*lays out tea and biscuits*
Looks like we're in for the long haul here
I'm going to do bullet point, because they're easier for others to pick apart:
All of these are preceded by "In my opinion..."
1. The fact we don't notice the moderation, only the great atmosphere on the site is testimony to how good a job the mods are doing. If it was over-moderated, you'd notice, if it was under-moderated, you'd notice.
2. I think any post which is a blatant duplicate (for whatever reason) should have a "Please search for this" reply pasted, then the thread should be deleted entirely a week later to prevent them coming up in searches.
2a. It might be worth someone even going as far as running common searches and deleting all old threads which contain no useful info or repeated info. But yes, I know this would be HUGELY time consuming, but I'm sure the main "culprit" threads could be done.
3. I don't think "Do a search" should be applied in Social Chat or Social Discussion except for music, "What are peoples faveourite..." and other similair threads. This means the newbies can still post to help announce themselves on the forum.
4. Rather than saying "Do a search/Durbs" if the person is blatantly new (i.e. less than 10 posts) do it for them, and provide links to the helpful threads in your reply. It's friendlier, shows them the search function works and shows them the wealth of info they can discover with it.
5. I don't think "stickies" are the solution, purely because 80% of people don't read them. Not saying they shouldn't be created, but I don't think they should be heralded as the ultimate solution.
5a. If "stickies" were to be created - there shouldn't be too many. I think one for links of all moves, and also one saying "what's this move called?" so people can then do a search for it themselves. Ohterwise you risk having 73 stickies.
6. I think Pele (and all the mods) do an incredible job
7. I don't think "Under-Mods" (or whatever) are necessary. I think those who would be suitable, do it anyway.
8. I'm hungry
Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,638 posts
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
3,638 posts
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Posted:
Pele I don't think Cole is insulting you, other mods, or implying that you're not doing your jobs. He's just saying what he sees.
He is ALSO saying that the inaccessibility of the information is an even bigger problem than we think if you are in fact doing much of the 'search' type moderation behind the scenes, not that you are being in any way problematic.
I would agree.
I OFTEN help people do searches, spend my time trawling through old threads to provide the most helpful ones because I am familiar wih the site. I also rarely see Mods doing this. I am not complaining about it - just pointing out that the current system would need you to spend all day searching to redirect everyone so it IS mostly the other members who spend their time doing this.
As far as Newbies wanting their own identity - they will do that in social, or by bumping existing threads and asking more questions, if they can be redirected appropriately.
I think threads like Simian's recent compilation in Poi Moves should be tagged at the top of each forum. They are not 'the ultimate solution' but they are a hell of a lot better than nothing.
I
Pele I don't think Cole is insulting you, other mods, or implying that you're not doing your jobs. He's just saying what he sees.
He is ALSO saying that the inaccessibility of the information is an even bigger problem than we think if you are in fact doing much of the 'search' type moderation behind the scenes, not that you are being in any way problematic.
I would agree.
I OFTEN help people do searches, spend my time trawling through old threads to provide the most helpful ones because I am familiar wih the site. I also rarely see Mods doing this. I am not complaining about it - just pointing out that the current system would need you to spend all day searching to redirect everyone so it IS mostly the other members who spend their time doing this.
As far as Newbies wanting their own identity - they will do that in social, or by bumping existing threads and asking more questions, if they can be redirected appropriately.
I think threads like Simian's recent compilation in Poi Moves should be tagged at the top of each forum.
They are not 'the ultimate solution' but they are a hell of a lot better than nothing.I
Geologists do it in the dirt................ 
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
edit: what the fairy said makes most of this post repitition - i hadn't read that cos i was writing this
okay pele - i accept that and i hereby apologise for my unintended insinuation.
however, i don't think that those two paragraphs constitute a good reason for a site moderator to flame me.
i can say, unconditionally, that it was not intended to insinuate anything - if you had bothered to ask what i was insinuating rather than, you would have found that it was not my intention att all to make the insinuation that "you aren't doing enough".
in fact, the reason i included the line about stuff going on that we can't see is because i didn't want to suggest that i assumed it wasn't - i was pointing out that members regularly deal with that type of problem but that it might a much bigger problem than we as members realise.
i'm sorry that i worded it so that it read to you (and probably to some others) that i asuumed that 'loads of mod inetervention' was not going on - i intended to insinuate that it was going on.
i meant to suggest that the work of the mods that goes on unseen means that we don't know how often duplicate threads actually occur, and the fact that you confirmed that it happens a lot more than we ever realise is testament to the problem.
i hope you can see that the insult i insinuated was not intended.
but with that out of the way (unless you feel insulted by any of my other comments), is there truly nothing that we have suggested that you think might have a positive influence on site use and operation or should i just 'drop it' now and leave this kind of thing up to the people in charge?
i agree with all of durbs' points 1-8 and wish i could have set my thoughts out in this way (everything there i have tried to say!).
re: #8, my dinner is on the table
cole. x
EDITED_BY: coleman (1117135264)
edit: what the fairy said makes most of this post repitition - i hadn't read that cos i was writing this
Written by: PeleWritten by: coleman
i can't remember the last time i saw a mod reply to a duplicate post or give directions to help a newbie search for what they required - very possibly there is loads of this going on behind the scenes but as far as i can tell, most of that kind of moderation is left up to the members.
if there is loads of mod intervention that we can't see, on top of all of us lot saying 'do a durbs' and providing links to old threads, that means this is a even bigger problem than it looks - that only adds to the argument for the need for a 'common thread' article
cole. x
Hmmm Coleman. This sounds to me like you are saying we are not doing our jobs...in fact, you even went so far as to say it's problematic. That is what I call public criticism, and the insuation that we don't do enough simply because you can't see it *is* insulting.
okay pele - i accept that and i hereby apologise for my unintended insinuation.
however, i don't think that those two paragraphs constitute a good reason for a site moderator to flame me.
i can say, unconditionally, that it was not intended to insinuate anything - if you had bothered to ask what i was insinuating rather than, you would have found that it was not my intention att all to make the insinuation that "you aren't doing enough".
in fact, the reason i included the line about stuff going on that we can't see is because i didn't want to suggest that i assumed it wasn't - i was pointing out that members regularly deal with that type of problem but that it might a much bigger problem than we as members realise.
i'm sorry that i worded it so that it read to you (and probably to some others) that i asuumed that 'loads of mod inetervention' was not going on - i intended to insinuate that it was going on.
i meant to suggest that the work of the mods that goes on unseen means that we don't know how often duplicate threads actually occur, and the fact that you confirmed that it happens a lot more than we ever realise is testament to the problem.
i hope you can see that the insult i insinuated was not intended.
but with that out of the way (unless you feel insulted by any of my other comments), is there truly nothing that we have suggested that you think might have a positive influence on site use and operation or should i just 'drop it' now and leave this kind of thing up to the people in charge?
i agree with all of durbs' points 1-8 and wish i could have set my thoughts out in this way (everything there i have tried to say!).
re: #8, my dinner is on the table
cole. x
EDITED_BY: coleman (1117135264)
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
GOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Posted:
I completly agree with 8.
I like the idea of one big sticky stuck at the top with a usefull name. Ive already searched every thread in staff moves for usefull info. I'd quite happily do it again. In fact i think that this is exactly the kind of thing a mod should not have to do. This site is maintained by the mods and the admins but its built by all of us together and i cannot honeslty see in any way that people volunteering to help out more could create something negative.
Worst case scenario, the newbies wont use it. But the people who put it there will. And the next time one of us is trying to remember the name of a usefull thread. It will be there.. and being helpfull to new people will become alot easier and accesbile to alot more people.
I dont see anybody throwing inslults around in here. In fact what i so see is a large group of people who voluntereed some of their time to come in here and voice up about making hop a bit more efficient for everyone who uses it.
pele, i honestly feel that i never, ever want to get on malcoms bad side for the rest of my life. I have a vision of you hunting me down and serving me up. Your fiercly protective. I admire that
It cant do any harm. whats one more thread? Whats one less thread?
I completly agree with 8.
I like the idea of one big sticky stuck at the top with a usefull name. Ive already searched every thread in staff moves for usefull info. I'd quite happily do it again. In fact i think that this is exactly the kind of thing a mod should not have to do. This site is maintained by the mods and the admins but its built by all of us together and i cannot honeslty see in any way that people volunteering to help out more could create something negative.
Worst case scenario, the newbies wont use it. But the people who put it there will. And the next time one of us is trying to remember the name of a usefull thread. It will be there.. and being helpfull to new people will become alot easier and accesbile to alot more people.
I dont see anybody throwing inslults around in here. In fact what i so see is a large group of people who voluntereed some of their time to come in here and voice up about making hop a bit more efficient for everyone who uses it.
pele, i honestly feel that i never, ever want to get on malcoms bad side for the rest of my life. I have a vision of you hunting me down and serving me up. Your fiercly protective. I admire that
It cant do any harm. whats one more thread? Whats one less thread?
Love is the law.
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
I know the mods do a ton behind closed doors. I know they get death threats for doing it. I appreciate it.
I'm gonna try and steer this in a positive direction.
I think the underlying points here are:
1) There are members here who are frustrated about the number of redundant threads.
2) There are members here who are frustrated by the lack of people using the search engine.
3) There are some members who would like to help and contribute towards limiting the number of reduntant threads.
We DON'T know what's going on behind closed doors, nor should we. I do think it's kind of rude to assume what is or isn't going on.
I found it a bit presumptuous for people to be offering suggestions without knowing many of the facts or history.
Is there a way the administration could contact those willing to help and explain the best way for us to do so? Even if that's just suggesting the proper repsonse to finding a duplicate post as we all tend to respond differently at this point.
I know the mods do a ton behind closed doors. I know they get death threats for doing it. I appreciate it.
I'm gonna try and steer this in a positive direction.
I think the underlying points here are:
1) There are members here who are frustrated about the number of redundant threads.
2) There are members here who are frustrated by the lack of people using the search engine.
3) There are some members who would like to help and contribute towards limiting the number of reduntant threads.
We DON'T know what's going on behind closed doors, nor should we. I do think it's kind of rude to assume what is or isn't going on.
I found it a bit presumptuous for people to be offering suggestions without knowing many of the facts or history.
Is there a way the administration could contact those willing to help and explain the best way for us to do so? Even if that's just suggesting the proper repsonse to finding a duplicate post as we all tend to respond differently at this point.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
SILVER Member
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
Posted:
The stickies aren't too obvious at the moment, only the pin icon shows a thread is stickied. Most boards put the text in bold, and change the background color.
This place is very different from other forums I've seen. One forum is moderated by a bunch of egomaniac Haxorz, who just say everything is OT and stop it unless it interests them, and on the email list for my favorite OS (openbsd), you will in no uncertain terms be told to STFU, STFA and RTFM, unless you can list in entirety where you've looked and still failed to find an answer. The entire development team will come down on you like a ton of bricks, flaming like crazy if you persist in complaining.
Contacting the admins is a little awkward, as it's done with email (can't find any other buttons). Normally there's a button for each message to report things, so you don't have to leave the forum. A lot of people don't like having to switch programs to do things, so they don't bother.
Maybe it'd be easier to have a phrase that can be searched for that takes admins (and other non mod helpers) straight to the problem. If put in the faq it might escape enough people's notice not to get abused too much. Something like attn_mods:dup_post followed by a link to the original thread. There could be other things put after the colon for other problems like :obscene or :offensive.
The stickies aren't too obvious at the moment, only the pin icon shows a thread is stickied. Most boards put the text in bold, and change the background color.
This place is very different from other forums I've seen. One forum is moderated by a bunch of egomaniac Haxorz, who just say everything is OT and stop it unless it interests them, and on the email list for my favorite OS (openbsd), you will in no uncertain terms be told to STFU, STFA and RTFM, unless you can list in entirety where you've looked and still failed to find an answer. The entire development team will come down on you like a ton of bricks, flaming like crazy if you persist in complaining.
Contacting the admins is a little awkward, as it's done with email (can't find any other buttons). Normally there's a button for each message to report things, so you don't have to leave the forum. A lot of people don't like having to switch programs to do things, so they don't bother.
Maybe it'd be easier to have a phrase that can be searched for that takes admins (and other non mod helpers) straight to the problem. If put in the faq it might escape enough people's notice not to get abused too much. Something like attn_mods:dup_post followed by a link to the original thread. There could be other things put after the colon for other problems like :obscene or :offensive.
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,638 posts
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
3,638 posts
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Posted:
Polarity - the little button with the strike through it at the bottom of each post notifies the mods
NYC - I do not think it is presumptious to offer suggestions. As you say, we don't/shouldn't/can't know what is going on behind the scenes. Suggestions, however misguided, are purely that - 'suggestions' - and appear all to have been made in good faith and with helpfulness first and foremost.
I personally find it rude that the suggestions made are discounted so readily with no proper explaination given other than 'you don't know what goes on behind the scenes'.
Polarity - the little button with the strike through it at the bottom of each post notifies the mods
NYC - I do not think it is presumptious to offer suggestions. As you say, we don't/shouldn't/can't know what is going on behind the scenes. Suggestions, however misguided, are purely that - 'suggestions' - and appear all to have been made in good faith and with helpfulness first and foremost.
I personally find it rude that the suggestions made are discounted so readily with no proper explaination given other than 'you don't know what goes on behind the scenes'.
Geologists do it in the dirt................
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I did give a full explanaition as to why I didn't think it would work FNF, twice in fact. And Durbs mentioned the exact same reasonning in his bullet list. I do explain things when I give my opinion, the first and sometimes the second time. Beyond that, I don't want to do it again.
Polarity..I like you. I think you are an asset to the bb. I swear sometimes, but then you get all tech languagy and my poor lil brain gets confuzzled
At the very bottom of each post are little icons.
A printer- to print
ribboned finger- to remind you...does anyone ever use this?
the no-no page- notify mods
The post to mail- to email the post to someone
The letter- to send a private message to the poster
I'm on other bb's as well. HoP is really not different than most others at all, just the layout. *Most* of the same elements are there, you just need to play around to figure them.
Thanks Durbs...now get thee some food!
I did give a full explanaition as to why I didn't think it would work FNF, twice in fact. And Durbs mentioned the exact same reasonning in his bullet list. I do explain things when I give my opinion, the first and sometimes the second time. Beyond that, I don't want to do it again.
Polarity..I like you. I think you are an asset to the bb. I swear sometimes, but then you get all tech languagy and my poor lil brain gets confuzzled
At the very bottom of each post are little icons.
A printer- to print
ribboned finger- to remind you...does anyone ever use this?
the no-no page- notify mods
The post to mail- to email the post to someone
The letter- to send a private message to the poster
I'm on other bb's as well. HoP is really not different than most others at all, just the layout. *Most* of the same elements are there, you just need to play around to figure them.
Thanks Durbs...now get thee some food! Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
SILVER Member
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
Posted:
<< Likes you too. I like not being the only person who writes huge posts. I'm always going of into some crazy incoherent, free associating, half OT ramble. Not that you do that.
Wow. I'm not used to these little buttony things, thanks I'm used to doing things like typing:
mount -fu /dev/sd0 /
ed /etc/fstab
,s/\/dev\/sd1/#\/dev\/sd1/g
They didn't have pictures and mice when I started with computers, nearly 20 years ago.
Would it be OK if I reorganised the FAQ a little, maybe sorted it into categories, and added some things on better searching? I don't want all my posts in this thread to seem like an endless stream of bitching, but it is a bit, um, flat.
<< Likes you too. I like not being the only person who writes huge posts. I'm always going of into some crazy incoherent, free associating, half OT ramble. Not that you do that.
Wow. I'm not used to these little buttony things, thanks
I'm used to doing things like typing:mount -fu /dev/sd0 /
ed /etc/fstab
,s/\/dev\/sd1/#\/dev\/sd1/g
They didn't have pictures and mice when I started with computers, nearly 20 years ago.
Would it be OK if I reorganised the FAQ a little, maybe sorted it into categories, and added some things on better searching? I don't want all my posts in this thread to seem like an endless stream of bitching, but it is a bit, um, flat.
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,638 posts
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
3,638 posts
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Posted:
ok. I've gone back and read it all again. It ammounts to this: You do not think it will work, so are not going to do it.
Ok. You don't have to. But if we (cole and others) do, could you please make the thread sticky, such as the one Simian has made [Old link] because although I do not want (i don't believe anyone does) a whole bunch of sticky threads, I would be overjoyed at being able to find one helpful one at the top of each forum so that I do NOT have to spend HOURS searchig through all the crap.
I will then find it much easier to help others, as well as being able to check and reference stuff myself.
I do not understand why such an obviously helpful, efficient and useful idea has been dismissed.
Please. I find that thread unbelievable helpful. I am SURE this means that others will too. Of coarse not everyone will, but surely that is no reason to just say no?
If this still does not make sense I will retire gracefully.
Love and light - fairy x
ok. I've gone back and read it all again. It ammounts to this: You do not think it will work, so are not going to do it.
Ok. You don't have to. But if we (cole and others) do, could you please make the thread sticky, such as the one Simian has made [Old link] because although I do not want (i don't believe anyone does) a whole bunch of sticky threads, I would be overjoyed at being able to find one helpful one at the top of each forum so that I do NOT have to spend HOURS searchig through all the crap.
I will then find it much easier to help others, as well as being able to check and reference stuff myself.
I do not understand why such an obviously helpful, efficient and useful idea has been dismissed.
Please. I find that thread unbelievable helpful. I am SURE this means that others will too. Of coarse not everyone will, but surely that is no reason to just say no?
If this still does not make sense I will retire gracefully.
Love and light - fairy x
Geologists do it in the dirt................
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
LOL...you have *no* idea Ado-p, and it isn't just Malcolm.
Coleman, I am not flaming you. I am replying to your posts. Trust me, if I ever lose my sanity and flame someone, you will know it...there will lots of angry graemlins, plenty of not nice words, and I will be promptly banned from the site by myself.
I even said that my tone was calm. Nope, that is not flaming.
NYC, I think it depends what you want to do. You want to compile things, or redirect a newbie...have fun. You don't need our permission, as proven by the years people have been doing it on here.
Personally I can only suggest what I have done, which is "Here's is a link to a thread which already exsists on this topic. In the future you can do a search *here* to avoid duplicates", then alert us to handle the dupe and the person. This is where I think if we make Polarity's search notes sticky it will come in handy because we can then offer that up to people. The thing is, from what I have seen, it is not a select few who have done the redirect. There are dozens and dozens of people who have helped, so in reality..being as polite as possible and *not* saying "Do a Durbs" I think is the best bet, as that is just confusing.
I have to say that members are not the only ones who get annoyed, but as you do, just watch how you say things as it can be tremendously off putting to a newbie, especially as Durbs said, ones with under 10 posts. (disclaimer: "you" is being used here as a univeral "you", not as a focussed at anyone here "you" )
Written by: ado-p
pele, i honestly feel that i never, ever want to get on malcoms bad side for the rest of my life. I have a vision of you hunting me down and serving me up. Your fiercly protective. I admire that
LOL...you have *no* idea Ado-p, and it isn't just Malcolm.
Coleman, I am not flaming you. I am replying to your posts. Trust me, if I ever lose my sanity and flame someone, you will know it...there will lots of angry graemlins, plenty of not nice words, and I will be promptly banned from the site by myself.
I even said that my tone was calm. Nope, that is not flaming.
NYC, I think it depends what you want to do. You want to compile things, or redirect a newbie...have fun. You don't need our permission, as proven by the years people have been doing it on here.
Personally I can only suggest what I have done, which is "Here's is a link to a thread which already exsists on this topic. In the future you can do a search *here* to avoid duplicates", then alert us to handle the dupe and the person. This is where I think if we make Polarity's search notes sticky it will come in handy because we can then offer that up to people. The thing is, from what I have seen, it is not a select few who have done the redirect. There are dozens and dozens of people who have helped, so in reality..being as polite as possible and *not* saying "Do a Durbs" I think is the best bet, as that is just confusing.
I have to say that members are not the only ones who get annoyed, but as you do, just watch how you say things as it can be tremendously off putting to a newbie, especially as Durbs said, ones with under 10 posts. (disclaimer: "you" is being used here as a univeral "you", not as a focussed at anyone here "you"
) Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,638 posts
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
3,638 posts
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Posted:
oops - geology creeping in. I meant 'of course' not 'of coarse'
oops - geology creeping in. I meant 'of course' not 'of coarse'
Geologists do it in the dirt................
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