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Dr. Tim
Dr. Tim

newbie
Location: Boston, MA
Member Since: 12th May 2005
Total posts: 2
Posted:A friend and I were considering coreographing a fight scene, and I thought it might be kinda cool to use poi (since I can already do a bunch of stuff with it, and it just looks cool). Does any one have any experience with this?

The thing I am concerned about is that one can't really block with poi, so in a normal sword fight scene there's lots of clashing, but its seems like that wouldn't really work with poi. Any ideas?


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inactive
inactive

old hand

Member Since: 4th May 2005
Total posts: 722
Posted:Post deleted by Sunbird

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quiet
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analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:you can't block, but you can move out of the way.

so, for instance, capoeira doesn't deal with blocks all that much. and, in fencing, moving out of the way counts as a parry at sabre.


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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:In Sabre, do you still have right of way? In Foil you need to actively remove the opponents blade from play before riposting, is it different in Saber?

On the actual topic of the thread, then Poi would be bloody difficult to block, because they'd just wrap around whatever did the blocking. But wouldn't that remove the Poi from play? Difficult to see what you could do beyond hitting someone twice with Poi, as all they need to do is block twice and then you're completely SCREW*D.


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analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:um, yeah: in sabre, if someone takes a swipe at you and you don't try to parry, but simply STEP BACK and avoid their blade, then you have the right to a riposte.

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Thx Quiet, I'm an Epeeist myself so don't know much about Saber (no-one to teach it at my club)

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old hand

Member Since: 4th May 2005
Total posts: 722
Posted:Give me a 30" Bronze Leaf blade anyday! I like a sword that actually would do damage and not doesn't just pretend to be a sword, I mean, c'mon, don't foils and epee's look like car radio ariels, lol! (Apologies to any serious foil and epee fans here(if there could be such a thing)lol) ubbloco

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analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:if you think that they don't do damage, you're wrong:

last death in the sport: 5 years ago [or so] in the Olympics, when an epee broke. The blade punched through the opposing fencer's mask, entered just below his chin, and exited through the crown of his skull. He died instantly.

I've seen people take chunks out of concrete with a sabre.

The point of fencing isn't supposed to be playing with 'real swords'. I grant that 30'' bronze leaf blades might satisfy the testosterone-driven primate in all of us who fancies himself a Great Warrior, but there's nothing particularly subtle in it. Fencing has been compared to a highly physical game of chess, and that's what most people like about it: it's more about outthinking your opponent than pretending to be genghis khan.


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old hand

Member Since: 4th May 2005
Total posts: 722
Posted:Lol, I am only kidding, I used to have an epee myself, from Toledo, actually my Unclue went there and bought it, there seems to be something about my family and swords, we all seem to have had one at one time, I have owned a huge array of bayonnets and shuriken and have had at least three Katana (both the beautiful curved ones and the straight black ones) several ceremonial swords, daggers, a claymore, leaf blades (both Bronze and Iron) and club swords, I don't have any anymore frown

I totally agree that fencing is beautiful and if I had the time and money I'd be doing it, but having been on the re-enactment scene, I am used to the heavy swords, incidentally, covering them in flammable material and using them while on fire.... now that's fun!


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polarity
polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1228
Posted:A thinner, lighter blade gives a huge advantage, in how fast you can respond, as it's lower inertia makes it quicker to accelerate, and counter attacks.

Heavier blades can cause more damage when they strike becuase of the extra momentum that they have.

Shorter blades can be used effectively when you're much closer to the opponent, as you can get inside their effective range, but you have to get inside it before you can cause any damage, but you still have an inertial advantage to respond to an initial attack.

If I had to choose swords I'd only go for a straight blade if it was light enough to move quickly (like the Green Destiny in Crouching Tiger).

The swords they used in the crusades may have had two edges, but because they were straight, could only effectively be used to lunge with the tip, something a lot were too long for, or sweep using the area near the tip. Because they're straight, an attack with the center of the blade could get stuck and be difficult to remove, not a good thing when you're surronded by more opponents, who can attack while you're trying to get your blade out. The Saracens curved blades, while only having one edge, gave a huge advantage, as you could strike effectively anywhere along the length of the blade, and the curve, by following the arc of your swing, would draw the cutting edge through more easily. Also a lot of the Saracens blades would have been made from damascus steel, which is folded many times from steels of two different hardnesses, and when sharpened gives an extremely finely serated edge that does a lot of damage to anything it hits, including armour to some extent.

The same can be said for the katana (and wakizashi and no-dachi), although the serations aren't on the edge, but come as a subtle waviness slightly behind the edge.

Clay is applied over everything but the cutting edge by hand, leaving finger sized waves, before the whole blade is heat treated. When the blade is cooled in water the clay makes the edge cool faster than the rest of the blade, so it's harder. When the sharpener puts the edge on the blade the waves in the thickness come out along the hamon, the interface between the two hardnesses of steel that shows in these.

The katana may be the finest sword ever made, combining lightness, strength, and many other features to improve it's effectiveness, but one of Japans most famous swordsmen was victorious in every competition he had with his challengers, no matter how fine their weapon, or what type they used. He didn't even use a real sword, just a hardwood stick of about the same length.

You can use any weapon and be sucessful, even no weapon at all. You just need to become extremely proficient, and develop moves that are effective against whatever is likely to be used against you.


I watch way too many martial arts films wink


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analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:so . . . here's a brief history lesson:

initially, swords were a bit weedy
then someone invented plate armour
then the swords got bigger
ditto chain mail
eventually, people got so heavily armoured (c.f. medieval knights) that you needed a massive broadsword to damage them. or similar.
then someone invented guns
armour became redundant (well, more or less)
there was no longer any advantage to having a massive, unwieldy sword, since there wasn't any armour to get through
so people started using lighter weapons. the lighter, the more manoeuvrable; since parries are a matter of turning rather than blocking the opponent's blade, lighter weapons are better; c.f. foil and epee.

and *that's* why foil / epee are more like 'real' (read: of potential contemporary use) swords than great unwieldy bronze leaf blades.

innit.


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old hand

Member Since: 4th May 2005
Total posts: 722
Posted:oh dear, lol I haven't heard "innit" since I left the area around Milton Keynes.

Umm, I should explain, I'm not sure if you're trying to push a point here or if you're retaliating to my earlier post (which as I said was simply a laugh). I know quite a bit about swords and it's great to chat about them. anyway, thanks for the history lesson smile

Take it easy


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analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:nah, i'm not trying to push any particular point, nor am i being particularly serious [hence innit. innit]

i was just nitpicking about your talk of 'real' swords . . .


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old hand

Member Since: 4th May 2005
Total posts: 722
Posted:lol, okies....

hmm, just thought, tis is all a bit offtopic lol


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Firewuff
Firewuff

member
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 26
Posted:I did a "fight Scene" with poi and glow staff for Melb fashion week, a goth and industrial show. Hence my icon (it's the only pic I have doing anything vaguely twirly). It works best with using glow poi to allow stopping or only 1 poi giving the second hand a glove (for fire) allowing control. Another alterniative is a club and 1 poi, using the club to catch and spin the poi, weird but can look good. The thing with poi and chain type weapons is you really don't want to wrap it as you effectivly lose your weapon unless it is to disable your opponent which is risky.

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ImmortalAngel
Scientist!
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Member Since: 19th Jan 2004
Total posts: 578
Posted:If you can master wraps with more than one person it becomes very possible to make intergrate contact a bit more. Although it would not be able to be your traditional blunt object smashing, but more of a dance, much like the earlier mentioned capoeira or to an extent, like much of the martial arts you see in movies these days.
It would be beautiful.


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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Puresock
Puresock

addict
Location: Oxford, UK
Member Since: 22nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 406
Posted:I don't think anyone's mentioned Gogo Yubari's rope dart scene in Kill Bill volume 1. Definitely worth watching for fightey poi type stuff, even if it is CG'ed. smile

You *could* block with poi - if you catch wristwraps you end up with both poi stretched between your hands, which could be used to block blows.


"Take that, math!"

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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:The thing is. as poi isn't a weapon, it's pretty hard to use it as a weapon...

I personally would add that I don't think it should be made into a weapon as that is so completely not what poi is about...

You can look for something similiar; meteors, chain whips or rope darts, and learn their forms but the trouble with these "soft" weapons (i.e. flexible) is, as you've mentioned, they're very hard to choreograph as you can't block them. When I was learning my Kung Fu routines with weapons, we never used any soft weapons, and thinking about it - I can't actually recall ever seeing a choreographed set with any soft-weapon vs. another weapon (Only against un-armed opponents)


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Cyrus
Cyrus

newbie
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Member Since: 16th Mar 2005
Total posts: 9
Posted:Poi as a weapon...



The first thing that comes to my mind is God of war, Blades on the end, and lit on fire.



Also...

"The katana may be the finest sword ever made, combining lightness, strength, and many other features to improve it's effectiveness, but one of Japans most famous swordsmen was victorious in every competition he had with his challengers, no matter how fine their weapon, or what type they used. He didn't even use a real sword, just a hardwood stick of about the same length."



I agree with this statement... The design of the blade being slightly curved for good swinging momentum, having a cutting edge to deliver the power of a blow, and a point for thrusting maneuvers was just brilliant on the Japanese's part. I personally prefer a wakazashi because of the fact its shorter, able to be wielded two handed or single handedly and is a bit faster. Katanas do have a wicked range though. I'd love to see someone fireswording with one of these pieces of art..

EDITED_BY: Cyrus (1116923098)


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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:Erm....



Eh?



Poi as a martial art think we were discussing wink


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Done been done before.



Do a Durbs.



There have been several other threads with "Poi" and "Martial" in the title. Some dating back to 2001.



Live by the search, die by the search. ubblol


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polarity
polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1228
Posted:The Kusari-gama was a 'soft' weapon, consisting of a chain with a weight at one end, and a kama sickle at the other. It was known for being a devastating weapon to use against even the most skilled sword wielders.

The movement from poi, to stick poi, to swords isn't too big, it just requires a lot of flexibility in the wrists to pull off many poi moves with something solid.

Wakizashi are about the same length and only about twice as heavy as the devilsticks I somethimes spin like poi, but I wouldn't want to perform with any kind of edged weapon, if you lose your grip someone could easily get a fatally serious injury.


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Cyrus
Cyrus

newbie
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Member Since: 16th Mar 2005
Total posts: 9
Posted:Written by: polarity

Wakizashi are about the same length and only about twice as heavy as the devilsticks I somethimes spin like poi, but I wouldn't want to perform with any kind of edged weapon, if you lose your grip someone could easily get a fatally serious injury.



Thus is the point of a blade =x


Though I could use many large words to describe our predicament, all I can say is... "We're screwed."

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:I agree, there's been lots already said about martial arts moves here.

That said, we might as well continue to head over there *points to Off Topic Land*
Written by: polarity

The katana may be the finest sword ever made, combining lightness, strength, and many other features to improve it's effectiveness, but one of Japans most famous swordsmen was victorious in every competition he had with his challengers, no matter how fine their weapon, or what type they used. He didn't even use a real sword, just a hardwood stick of about the same length.




A katana is very good at what it was made for - draw cuts against lightly or non-armoured people.
However, they're pretty much rubbish at everything else.
- They're not straight so they're not that good at thrusting point first.
- The edge is incredably brittle and liable to break if you hit anything made of metal at the wrong angle. Don't even think about hitting heavy metal armour with one, the blade comes off worst every time.

The katana is certainly a very good sword, but it's certainly not the finest, because there's no such thing. Swords (and other weapons) are developed for a specific need, you can't compare different types, it's like comparing a knife and a fork - they're both used for eating and have a similar basic shape but they're still incredably different.
The only benefit a katana has over every other sword is the PR man who takes full advantage of films like highlander to boost the coolness factor wink


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Cyrus
Cyrus

newbie
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Member Since: 16th Mar 2005
Total posts: 9
Posted:I see... next time we will all use the search engine and contribute to three hundred year old threads. (Just kidding, we shall use search...)

I would like to see poi as a martial art.



Off topic!!!! :O~Katanas were designed to cut through metal, actually. If you've ever noticed the chisel like edge (the kissaki) and have actually performed a well placed cut, you would understand the design a little more.



And if the edge is brittle, you've got something made of pakistan steel. >_O

EDITED_BY: Cyrus (1116971359)


Though I could use many large words to describe our predicament, all I can say is... "We're screwed."

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:I'm going to have to back out of this thread now before I start argueing about katanas never being made to cut metal and that they're not the legendary super-swords that people have been misled by the western media into thinking they are.

Very much like all threads involving a discussion about religeon, it's a topic that just gets heated quickly and neither side is willing to concede on any points.
So, consider this a 'we're going to have to agree to disagree' post smile


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Dunno, I saw a movie where this guy was a turtle and I'm pretty sure he cut through metal with a Katana.

wink


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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:poi is as much a martial art as Macdonalds is a restaurant.

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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SickpuPpy
SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.
Member Since: 27th Nov 2001
Total posts: 1100
Posted:You actually really can block with poi, but unless you have a good deal of experiance with chain weapons and practical combat training it's not going to be something that can be explained in text, lol.

But there are ways, and many ways at that.

Chain weapons are amazingly versitile, on fire or not. You may want to watch some *old* Jet Li movies, as he trained in Wu Shu which deals with a whole assortment of flexible weapons and the combat scenes in kung fu movies in general can be invaluable to any fire performer.


Jesus helps me trick people.

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polarity
polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1228
Posted:Oh rap, forgot to put it in the favorite threads list again...

I didn't mean to imply that katanas were capable of cutting through metal, just that the waviness along the hamon helps to cut through what armour was used at the time. I've never heard of the Japanese using metal armour, too much of the fighting style is based on freedom of movement, for huge periods or Japanese history the hardest object a samurai had after his sword would most often be the wooden sandals on his feet.

The damascus steel used for scimitars may be able to cut through the kind of plate armour you can dent with a moderate punch, but probably only enough to draw blood. Taking someones arm off would need someone really huge to hit hard enough. That kind of blade doesn't need to be too hard and brittle, as it kind of self sharpens, as the two hardnesses of steel are worn. All but the worst chainmail would stop most cuts though.

While the katana was designed for thrusting (that's what the kissaki is for) there aren't too many thrusting moves, and they need to follow the curvature of the blade, instead of lunging like with fencing swords. While the thrust may be able to punch through armour, the edge would definately break off when used to strike metal. Only the lower part of the blade and the edges were used for blocking or parrying, and a lot of training involved learning how to do this without damaging the edge.

Western martial arts films suck. I collect martial arts films, and I don't consider anything made outside Japan or China to be the real thing. Both Jet-Li and Jackie Chan made better films before they started making them in the west, and there are plenty of other films without well known actors. The best martial arts films I've seen are black and white Japanese ones.


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