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.:star:.
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

.:star:.

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1785
Posted:If you haven't read my wheelchair poi thread then i'll quickly give an overview of my condition

I have a condition that causes my limbs to be very painful, I can't walk very far, stand for very long or play with my poi or staff very much frown I have seen so many different consultants and none of them find what is causing my pain and none of them can suggest what i should do to get better, although they all confidently say that i will get better.

I am coping with all rather well but my mum is really really worried about me and keeps spending money on things that she thinks will help. In january she spent 130 on some tablets that didn't work and today she sent me to see a homeopathic consultant that cost 65 just for one appointment. It really upsets me that she is so desperately trying to help an I am worried that people can see this and are ripping her off, conning her that these treatments will work to make money. It upsets me to see the disapointment on her face everytime something doesn't work.

Anyway, i'll get to the point. I am very skeptical about homeopathic medicine, i can't see how a tiny tiny amount of something dissolved in water can help. To be perfectly honest i think that its only a placebo. My mum really wants me to try it but i really really don't want to waste any more of her money so i would be really greatful if anyone had any experience of homeopathy, to let me know if it works or even helps a bit.

Obviously i want to get better as much as my mum does but i don't to get her or my hopes up that something will work when the chances are that it won't. I worry more about my mum worrying about me and spending all her money on me than i do about my condition.


Any advice or information will be greatfully received

Starpoi


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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Very good point.

Wish I'd thought of it wink

Not a believer in God myself, so could you quickly explain the "World as manifestation of God's Mind"? never heard of that myself.

(Although if he's got a sick imagination it would explain a lot of things IMO)


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I prefer not to use 'he' in connection with God, as it implies that God is male.

"World as manifestation of God's Mind" is a common 'New-Age' doctrine of reality, and, in that context, 'God' would generally not necessarily be like 'God' in a christian context.

It would more likely be seen as the creative energy underlying the world, possibly conscious, possibly not.

Generally, the main difference between the world in that view, and the pure scientific physicalist view of the world, would be that there would be some underlying meaning and pattern to our lives, and also the opportunity for us to influence aspects of that world in non-physical ways.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:To elaborate on that a bit more: -

One who believes that the world is purely physical, would tend to assume that to bring prosperity to their life would soley be a function of such things as hard work, being clever (entrapenurial), possibly luck etc.

One who believes that the world is a manifestation of God, or spirit; would believe that prosperity can be obtained by working on themselves, for example by eliminating the 'blocks' in their conscious/sub conscious that, in this view, are blocking the flow of abundance into their lives.

Same goes for health- a physicalist will go to medical experts who deal with tangible, scientific stuff with chemicals and scalpels etc.

Those who view the world as manifestation of God/spirit, will be just as likely to use stuff like homeopathy or spiritual healing, and be fairly unconcerned if medical experts dismiss those systems as unscientific.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:OK, thanks for that explanation OnewheelDave.

I didn't mean any offence with the implication of the gender of God, it's simply the most common method of talking about Him/Her/It? Especially in a predominantly Christian country.

But how would the world exist in the mind of what is essentially an animal? I mean, I thought that the main difference between us and animals was that we could:

1. Think of the idea of "self", in other terms we are sentient and animals are not.

(I was going to add a second point here, but realised that squirrells do the same thing so...)


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I know that 'He' is most commonly used to refer to 'God'; I'm sure you'll agree that just because something is common doesn't make it good or right smile

Being practical, 'She' is obviously no better and 'It' sounds fairly bizarre- I've found that simply using 'God' suffices when writing about, or refering to God.

Concerning animals etc-

Firstly, those who hold the view that the world is a manifestation of Gods mind wouldn't necessarily have a problem with animals, as the animals would be existing in the mind of God (as opposed to the world existing in the minds of animals).

ie the whole world, and everything in it (including you and me) is a manifestation of the mind of God.

Secondly, just because an animal lacks the level of sentience that humans do, does not mean they aren't sentient; I personally would be prepared to argue (and have done so on this board in connection with buddhism and vegetarianism) that animals are sentient- they can feel pain/loss and, to an extent, be self-aware.

Of course, to 'new-agers' who believe the world is manifestation of God-mind, the problem is even less, as many of them attribute consciousness to such things as trees and rocks.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Of course I agree with the first point, so no problems there wink

I just think that it's a bit weird that if the World is in the mind of God then God could easily be an animal. If this is so, then how is it possible that God can imagine a higher level of consciousness than God itself (sorry) exhibits? How can it (sorry again) imagine a "Higher" form of consciousness?

Quote "It's OK to fish, cos they don't have any feelings" (said ironically)

Damn straight. Animals of all varieties feel pain, and the more intelligent ones (Dolphins, Elephants, Cats, Dogs, Whales Chimps etc) feel emotions. All the emotions Humans feel, up to and including personal loss, guilt, hatred etc. With you on that point too.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Delete

quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:my problem with this is that the notion of the universe existing in the mind of god is, i think, incoherent.

why? because I think that the mind must be identical with some physical structure (that is, it must be instantiated); and the universe is the totality of physical structures. (as opposed to the world, which is the totality of facts, not of things, as wittgenstein would have had it). so unless god is part of the physical universe, or identical to the physical universe, we can't be thoughts in the mind of god.

furthermore, the mental is essentially intentional: that is, minds are distinguished by having thoughts about things. but representation is an artefact: things aren't intrinsically representational. for us to be thoughts, we'd have to be representing something, but there is nothing for us to represent, and no intrinsic representation. QED, innit.


ture na sig

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:How about if God had a physical brain, and that physical brain WAS the Universe?

Then God would have a huge head lol

I'm not really convinced by this argument either, but thought I'd hear it explained before I passed judgement on it. (please note that i'm not accusing Quiet of anything at all here, so don't take it that way)


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I think that those who hold that the universe is a manifestation of the mind of God, would deny that mind has to be based on an underlying physical system- whether that be a brain or the entire universe.

They could well believe that, in a sense, all physical matter is no more than the qualia observed by minds.

For a totally different kind of theory (ie not one which claims that the universe is a manifestation of Gods mind) which also denies the view that consciousness must be enacted on a physical system, there is my 'ultimate theory of reality' page here: -

http://www.geocities.com/combatunicycle/utor/utor.html
br>
which argues that consciousness is enacted, not on the physical matter of brains etc, but on non-physical mathematical objects.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:"it would seem to be impossible that it could develop into 'something'"

But you said that Nothing is characterless and featureless as well as being outside space. How then does it develop? I mean, Time has no meaning, and "Develop" needs time for it to happen in...

"take Pi- its value always has, and will always be, the same. If the physical universe, and everyone in it, ceased to be, Pi would not be altered one jot. "

Hang on, if the physical universe ceased to be, then there would be NO circles for Pi to apply to, so would therefore itself not exist. Also, WE wouldn't exist.

"Fundamentally I regard the mind as a program, and, in turn, regard the program as a mathematical entity."

So the mind is Logical? I assume that this is what you're saying, so how do you explain it when people act irrationally?

"i.e. that numbers and other mathematical entities somehow have being in a mathematical realm; and that they would be real even if humanity, or the physical world didn't exist. "

But this is contradicted by:

"By 'Nothingness' I take to mean, quite simply, an absolute absence of all things. "

"According to quantum physics, there are fundamental scales in our world below which size becomes meaningless i.e. we can't continue to divide a distance to give smaller distances. "

Why not? this seems a bit crazy, as any distance is by definition divisible... Not a criticism of you, but that just seems to be a bit strange (like the grown up finally saying "Because" when constantly asked "Why?" by a child)

"Neither is it 'invented' by humans. To see why, take the millionth digit of Pi; long before any human being actually calculated it, it was nevertheless the millionth digit of Pi; any future or past calculation of Pi will always yield that same digit. "

But then, the physical universe follows this reasoning in itself, i.e. Things exist before we experience them ourselves.

Some other points, but quite an interesting article nonetheless.

Still not convinced though biggrin
biggrin biggrin


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:It wouldn't be right for me to discuss it in greater detail on this thread- it's too off-topic.

The original UTOR thread is here:-

http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...ll/fpart/1/vc/1
br>
and I think you'll find that most of your points above are addressed in that thread.

The reason I mentioned it, and the respect in which it's relevant to this thread, is that it's one of many points of view that present minds/conscious systems as not requiring enactment on physical systems.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand

Total posts: 625
Posted:Aside from god and positive thinking...i try to keep an open mind.

I personally believe in "rongoa maori" Maori herbs and prayer. There is a breif example : here Im not sure how that can help you because finding practicioners is hard. Let alone getting "herbs" into the UK.

I use to be into acupunture, but prefer acupresure nowdays. Reasons are given on that site.

There are rumors that Bruce Lee broke his neck at one point in his life and the dictors told him he could never walk again...so there is always hope. Im not sure how that would relates to you but dont give up. ubbangel

Hope you find something that works for you smile

luck


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