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Forums > Social Discussion > Should Children Spin with Fire?

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Hairy Tait
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Hairy Tait

member
Location: Back in the Future

Total posts: 109
Posted:I have a Niece who i would like to Introduce POI To....Obviously I'm not going to give her a set of Lighted Fire Poi and say:
"off you go then"
But i just wanted to get some Opinions on whether Minors should or should not use Fire.....
If they have the skill and they are supervised....is it ok......?


It's a very interesting story, Future Boy....!

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Frederick the Reckless
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Frederick the Reckless

Troupe Leader and founder, Fire and Steel
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 241
Posted:tell you what, then... how about you delete your posts on this matter in regard to my reply, and i'll delete mine, then we can go back to being complacent with the fact that no one seems to be able to mention something without being attacked for their statements?

Frederick the Reckless,
Troupe Leader,
Fire and Steel

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: Frederick the Reckless


no one seems to be able to mention something without being attacked for their statements?





when the statement suggests that you condone someone as young as 13 firebreathing, you will be met with considerable opposition on this board.



you can regard this as 'being attacked' if you so desire but the truth of the matter is that this is a safety-concious community and most people here will not appreciate somone giving out mixed messages regarding the safety of "the most dangerous of the fire arts" (quote is official site opinion, not mine).



it is widely accepted that fire breathing is extremely dangerous and as such, is an unacceptable skill to teach to a minor.



don't take it personally, but if you really wish to express your opinion that a 13 year old is safe to fire breathe, you should really offer some new insight.



your statement that "it all comes down to responsibility, safe practice, and supervision" has already been shown to be patently untrue in the case of fire breathing - and that was for a full-time professsional adult fire breather, not a 13 year old.





this debate is about the appropriateness of minors spinning fire staff and fire poi - fire breathing by a minor is wholly unaccepatble and should not be a subject for discussion at all imho.





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Frederick the Reckless


tell you what, then... how about you delete your posts on this matter in regard to my reply, and i'll delete mine, then we can go back to being complacent with the fact that no one seems to be able to mention something without being attacked for their statements?





I didn't intend to attack your statement; as I said in my post above I'm not even entirely sure what you were saying.



What you said sounded like you condoned 13 years fire breathing under supervision- like I said above, I didn't want to presume that is actually what you meant, because I find it a little difficult to believe that you would condone it.



Assuming that you are condoning 13 year olds fire breathing, then yes, I'm going to express my opinion on that, and if you want to see that as an attack, then so be it; I put it as non-agressively as I could.



Given that a lot of grown adults, some of whom were professionals, have come to grief through fire breathing; my opinion is that 13 year olds should not be doing it.



There's plenty of room on HOP for debates, but I think most of the community would rather not see opinions that give the impression that fire breathing is appropriate for 13 year olds.



As I've mentioned on previous occasions, anyone can end up reading these threads through doing a search using terms like fire breathing, safety etc.



Most non-fire artists have no conception whatsoever about the safety and dangers of fire breathing. Imagine the scenario where some parent or festival organiser is doing a search to check whether fire breathing is OK for their child. If they come across posts like yours, they go away under the impression that fire breathing for children is under serious debate, that it's a matter of opinion.



Personally, I'd rather they go away with the impression that fire-breathing is an absolute no-no for their child.



If you've got any doubts, maybe you should report my posts to the mods.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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SNOOPoi


SNOOPoi

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: At the bottom of the garden wi...

Total posts: 3380
Posted:as a child who span fire i would say that yes. you should definitely let children spin fire. however the said child should be monitored closely.

also only let children spin fire if you no that they are mature enough to deal with it and not use poi as a toy.


THWACK!!!!
Liz_Ard: Ouch!
SNOOPoi: Thats just not the sound of someone doing it right!

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Frederick the Reckless
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Frederick the Reckless

Troupe Leader and founder, Fire and Steel
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 241
Posted:okay, dave, let me offer some insight into how i speak, which is often how i post in message boards. i am sorry i don't always spell it all out, but when this board is full of "trained professional" lunatics like myself, i assume that it's basically all been said, so if i post the full statement it comes off as though i am treating everyone like broken-minded three-year-olds. that is at least how it comes off when i read iot back to myself. now let me give you some insight into this 13 year-old. he asked someone i know to teach him. the first thing he was required to do was read Pele's article. the next step was msds's, medical journal articles on burned lung tissue, etc... followed by 3 months practice with water in all possible wind conditions... oregon is good for that. moreover, his parents made him write reports on the subject, demonstrating his medical knowledge as far as what he was getting into, and writing Pele's article in his own words.
when i heard all that he had to do, plus having watched him with water and in practice, quizzing him on what you should never do, for instance: rule one, don't panic. rule two: fire goes up. rule 3: if it's out of control, shut your mouth and stop exhaling, never inhale again until there is no flame left (NO MATTER HOW FAR IT IS FROM YOU)... i was proud to share my stage with him. to those looking to roast me for my opinion on this matter: i will simply ignore you, as you will have proven yourselves incapable of reading a post as a whole, but rather only reading the parts you want to read.


Frederick the Reckless,
Troupe Leader,
Fire and Steel

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Valura
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 6391
Posted:Written by: Frederick the Reckless

to those looking to roast me for my opinion on this matter: i will simply ignore you, as you will have proven yourselves incapable of reading a post as a whole, but rather only reading the parts you want to read.



The original post that you put up, that caused so much concern, was a blanket statement about 13 yr olds breathing fire and only needing supervision and responsibilty.

If you cannot be bothered putting up evidence to support your statement then you will recieve more than a few raised eyebrows. Getting defensive about it and saying your going to ignore people who are questioning your logic is hardly a mature approach to the subject.

In my opinion a 13 year old is not mature enough to be breathing fire and will be inclined to panic if something was to go wrong.
I applaude you on stating that you required the child to read Peles article, but in my honest opinion that isnt going to stop them from being hurt.It does make them more aware of the outcomes but doesnt take away ANY of the risk.
Fire breathing is unpredictable and a testing past time for the most dedicated and experienced breather as pele can attest to. I believe that a 13 year old does not yet have the mental capability to deal with a possibly life threatening situation in regards to firebreathing.

As for the medical implications to a childs lungs etc, I shudder to think about it.

I truly believe that teaching a 13 yr old to fire breath is irresponsable and not something I would be proud of as a fire professinal. soapbox


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Frederick the Reckless


okay, dave, let me offer some insight into how i speak, which is often how i post in message boards. i am sorry i don't always spell it all out, but when this board is full of "trained professional" lunatics like myself, i assume that it's basically all been said, so if i post the full statement it comes off as though i am treating everyone like broken-minded three-year-olds. that is at least how it comes off when i read iot back to myself.







On an issue like this, it's far better to risk treating the professionals like broken minded three year olds- if they are professionals they'll entirely understand that, on a public forum of this kind, anyone can read the posts.



You've given the full story now, I've read it and understood it.



It sounds like you went to a lot of trouble preparing this child for fire-breathing; the question I'd like to ask is- why he was learning to fire-breathe?



I seriously do not understand the motivation- as I'm sure you know, the precautions you listed above are essential to minimise the risk; but there are many adults who've taken all those precautions, plus gaining several years actual experience of professional performing, and they've still had a serious accident.



So, now you've explained in more detail the precautions taken, I'd really like you to say why this 13 year old was trained up to fire-breathe.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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GothFrogette
BRONZE Member since Oct 2004

GothFrogette

grumpy poorly froggy
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 3999
Posted:eek you have to be joking, please tell me that i did not read anyone condoning a 13 year old child fire breathing. And it doesn't matter how many articals you get them to read on the dangers, or how mature you think they are. or how well they have been trained up. This is a child protection issue and it saddens me that anyone would let this go on.

Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows

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Frederick the Reckless
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Frederick the Reckless

Troupe Leader and founder, Fire and Steel
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 241
Posted:well, dave, i asked him why myself... his answer was that it was beautiful to watch, and wanted to learn it. his answer is no different or unusual from the reason why most of us leaned it. i do not fault his trainer for deciding to teach him. his reason for getting into the fire arts was much better than some of the answers i have heard from ADULTS (i.e. "to get chicks," "it looks like a lotta fun to have when you're stoned," and lets not forget the ever popular, "because i can make lots of money at it.")

Frederick the Reckless,
Troupe Leader,
Fire and Steel

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I hear what you're saying there (about the reasons other people give).

I guess the things I'd be inclined to say/do in that situation would be the following-

1. Concerning beauty, I would attempt to convey what I see when looking at fire breathing- knowing what I know about the realities of fire breathing, and knowing the people I know who've been injured to a life altering extent.

I see ugliness and waste. Whilst I appreciate the difficulty of conveying that to a 13 year old, I would certainly give it a go.

2. Point out to him that, as well as being the most dangerous of the main fire arts, it is also pretty much the least skillful, and that he may want to consider other arts such as-

3. Poi, staff etc, which are beautiful not merely because of the fire, but for the actual moves

4. I think it would be a good task to set, for him to do extensive research and write a convincing essay on why 13 year olds should not fire breathe- if ,after that, he still wants to learn, then I guess nothing will stop him; however, if he sincerely understands the opposite position, that may be enough to make him rethink his plans

5. I'd want to introduce him to a friend of mine who also once loved fire breathing, but who had an accident which left him in hospital for months, for some of which he was expected to die, for some of which he was under the impression that for the rest of his life he would be seriously disabled.

Not to shock him, but simply so he can speak with someone who's seen, and lived through, both sides.

------------

Just to get some context on your point of view, it would be interesting to know on what grounds you feel it's OK to teach fire-breathing to 13 year olds

ie do you just think its OK to teach 13 year olds what they want to learn (eg would you think it OK to teach one how to inject heroin [assuming they'd done research etc]); or is it more that you reckon if a pro doesn't teach them, they'll go elsewhere to learn; or is it something entirely different?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Frederick the Reckless
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Frederick the Reckless

Troupe Leader and founder, Fire and Steel
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 241
Posted:if a pro doesn't teach them, (particularly one who's been through what Pele has [this guy i come to find out has] and survived only barely), they will go elsewhere to learn or experiment on their own, if they're determined enough. (i,e, ignoring the whole "don't try this at home, kids... or anywhere else for that matter. we are trained professional idiots!" schpiel.) he is starting to learn staff from one of my own students, under my supervision. (no he's not lit yet.) i also did not say that i would teach a 13 year-old to breathe fire, but by the time i had met him, the damage had been done. after assessing his knowledge on what he got himself into, i was okay with the level of teaching he had. had i been asked by this kid's teacher if it would be cool to teach him, i'd have said "not no, but h_ll no!" and suggested he learn something much less dangerous. fact is, if he hadn't learned from a pro, i'd have never let him share the stage. adults trying it on their own, chalk it up to culling of the herd. i have no sympathy for those who do not try to educate themselves on the hazards FIRST, and then get hurt and find out on their own, potentially posthumously. but knowing he had done his homework made me infinitely more comfortable. knowing he had learned from a solid pro helped even more. moths come to the flame at all ages, the best you can do is control how they learn, if you can, i guess.

Frederick the Reckless,
Troupe Leader,
Fire and Steel

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newgabe
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali

Total posts: 4030
Posted:Written by: Frederick the Reckless


iwe are trained professional idiots! .... let him share the stage.... moths come to the flame at all ages.... the best you can do is control how they learn.





Well maybe could be 'better' is be a trained professional whilst not being an 'idiot', eg not fire breathing on stage yourselves, never in a fit let a kid do it ( and thereby advertising to others that it is acceptable/attractive/pulls chicks or whatever) and generally promote the idea of fire manipulation as an art form, not a self harm strategy!



And what.. you haven't let him light a fire staff yet? Why? cos that's dangerous?

Oh glory

ubbloco



*edits out sarcastic finale*

in response to OWD, who is as ever the voice of sweet reason and openness! Onya Dave

EDITED_BY: newgabe (1119794945)


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:At least Frederick has gone to the effort to elaborate on his views. I happen to disagree with them, but I do appreciate that he's gone to the trouble and done so in a place where he knows he's not going to get any support and will quite possibly be sharply put down.

I don't think there's any possible line of reasoning which will change my view that 13 year olds fire-breathing is wrong; but, there are people out there who disagree, and I think that as long as they're going to post the rational reasoning behind their POVs, then that is a useful thing.

Some people out there think it's OK because they are basically stupid, but others do have what they see to be valid points- it seems to me that the best way to address the second group is through reason, rather than insults and put-downs.

That's just my opinion- I feel a little sad that Frederick is possibly going to feel pushed away by some of the posters here.

----------

I would say Frederick, that I understand what you're saying about the damage being done, as that 13 year old had made his choice and already learnt to fire-breathe to a fairly high standard.

Nevertheless, I personally would not allow him on a stage if I had control over it. My reasons would be-

1. that allowing him to perform on my stage would give the impression that I approve of 13 year olds fire-breathing

2. it makes it seem, to the watching public, that 13 year olds fire-breathing is acceptable

3. it could well encourage many other 13 year olds (in the audience) to learn, and, of those who do, most will not end up being fortunate enough to know to seek out a professional (it's still my view that very, very few fire professionals would be willing to teach a 13 year old to breathe fire)


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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GothFrogette
BRONZE Member since Oct 2004

GothFrogette

grumpy poorly froggy
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 3999
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave


That's just my opinion- I feel a little sad that Frederick is possibly going to feel pushed away by some of the posters here.





agreed *Jumps on Federick hug*

i can actually see it from Federicks point of view.

i still think its wrong that a 13 year old is fire breathing. same as i think its wrong for a 13 year old to smoke and do drugs. it doesn't stop it from happening though. i also know what i was like at that age *Shudders at the thought of own son getting closer to 13.

if a child of that age wants to breath fire they Will do it, the same as smoking and drugs. you can tell them NO and they still do it. so at least we can be rest assured that this child was taught and trained properly.
relating it back to the smoking and drugs if my son did decide he was going to do either of them, i would not be happy and would of cause go over and over the health risks and other dangers. Then i would go over..... but if you are going to do it .... then go into how to take them sensily and as safely as possible. i don't allow smoking in the house full stop so letting him smoke in the house is not an option and neither is me buing them but if he's going to do it then i would rather know about it than him going behind my back.
i know of many children who have tried fire breathing using lighter fuel and a lighter, spilling it all over them and well you can imagine. you see it on the darwin awards, other sites, on the TV in the papers.

its not a position i would like to be in as a parent but it has to be said i would do the same... or find him a teacher as i can't do it. No thats not me condoning teaching children such things its me being an honest parent


Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows

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Frederick the Reckless
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Frederick the Reckless

Troupe Leader and founder, Fire and Steel
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 241
Posted:Written by: newgabe




Well maybe could be 'better' is be a trained professional whilst not being an 'idiot', eg not fire breathing on stage yourselves, never in a fit let a kid do it ( and thereby advertising to others that it is acceptable/attractive/pulls chicks or whatever) and generally promote the idea of fire manipulation as an art form, not a self harm strategy!



And what.. you haven't let him light a fire staff yet? Why? cos that's dangerous?

Oh glory

ubbloco



*edits out sarcastic finale*

in response to OWD, who is as ever the voice of sweet reason and openness! Onya Dave





newgabe, i do fire breathing. i didn't train this kid, but he is better trained than most. i let him share my stage. get over it. suck it up and deal with it. and for your edification, the reason the boy isn't allowed to light up a staff yet is that he isn't able to control the thing well enough dry yet to not knock bruises into his shins, head, and pretty much everywhere else on a regular basis.


Frederick the Reckless,
Troupe Leader,
Fire and Steel

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Irene


newbie
Location: NY

Total posts: 14
Posted:I'm a minor and have no intention of spinning fire. A part of it is that most of my friends don't respect poi, only the fire aspect. One girl asked me if I was doing fire yet after my first lesson.

An example of the disrespect towars fire is that a lot of boys in my school are doing fire hackey sack. I have no intention of being lumped with them as kids who, "play with fire" when those dumbasses (yes, they are dumbasses) get hurt. Would insurance cover a minor who was spinning fire?

EDITED_BY: Irene (1119809068)


Disco radical trans-global

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Frederick the Reckless
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Frederick the Reckless

Troupe Leader and founder, Fire and Steel
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 241
Posted:Written by: Irene

Also, would insurance cover a minor who was spinning fire?


i can't see why not... it's not like homeowner's insurance or car insurance, where you are not covered for things that would not usually happen... like your house getting hit by a falling satellite.
health insurance is for just that: your health and well-being.


Frederick the Reckless,
Troupe Leader,
Fire and Steel

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Fine_Rabid_Dog


Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...

Total posts: 10530
Posted:whoa whoa whoa!

Kid fire spinners (like me) need insurance... oh buggeration...


The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

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Anna-pananna


Anna-pananna

Thinking...
Location: Oxford

Total posts: 179
Posted:Written by: Fine_Rabid_Dog

whoa whoa whoa!

Kid fire spinners (like me) need insurance... oh buggeration...



Nah I don't think you do...we've got the NHS here in the UK who'll fix you up if the worst were to happen...in the US and stuff they must have medical insurance cos health care isn't free...is that right?

But I don't know if an insurance company would insure a minor to PERFORM with fire...likewise, I'm not sure it would be covered with employers liability insurance. Although I don't actually know, but that's what I'd expect.

Sorry, that was all a bit offtopic !


Practice as if your hair was on fire...

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polythene


veteran
Location: London/ Surrey

Total posts: 1359
Posted:I personally don't agree with a 13 year old firebreathing, but I'm not going to attack you in this post, I'm curious about the approach to preparing the child (If you know these details, as I understand you weren't the person that actually trained the child): Having the 13 year old read Pele's article was a good start, did anyone suggest that the child's parent or guardian read the article? Additional information, like Lightning's article on ARDS? Any information on the negative effects of firebreathing without the event of an accident? (e.g. risk of mouth/throat cancer, corroded teeth etc.?)

Just bein' nosey smile


The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Frederick the Reckless


newgabe, i do fire breathing. i didn't train this kid, but he is better trained than most. i let him share my stage. get over it. suck it up and deal with it. and for your edification, the reason the boy isn't allowed to light up a staff yet is that he isn't able to control the thing well enough dry yet to not knock bruises into his shins, head, and pretty much everywhere else on a regular basis.




I've never felt 'get over it' to be that useful a response smile

Fact is, Newgabe is simply expressing disapproval over your decision to let a fire-breathing 15 year old share your stage.

From my post above it's obvious that I also disapprove; for the 3 reasons I give there.

Obviously, the 15 year old can fire breathe already- there's not a thing I or you can do to change that.

But to stick him up on a stage seems to me, to only be encouraging him to continue, and encouraging others to emulate him.

Which maybe to you isn't a problem? I do get the feeling that you feel some admiration for his learning to fire-breathe, and the fact that he went about it in a more responsible fashion than some adults.

And I have read your posts, and I do understand what you're saying- I still disagree, but, I can see the points you're making about the fact that he's approached this in a more responsible manner than many adults.

But have you considered the fact that those other young people who witness him on your stage, who are themselves inspired to emulate him, and those who, having seen under-age fire breathing given 'respectability' by being on a professional stage; will most likely be disinclined, or have access to, similar training?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Frederick the Reckless
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Frederick the Reckless

Troupe Leader and founder, Fire and Steel
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 241
Posted:Written by: newgabe


Well maybe could be 'better' is be a trained professional whilst not being an 'idiot', eg not fire breathing on stage yourselves...


that is the part that i said, "get over it" about. i have long since i came to HoP tired of those who would disparage of me breathing fire. and as far as that goes, they can get over it.

/soapbox


Frederick the Reckless,
Troupe Leader,
Fire and Steel

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Frederick the Reckless
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Frederick the Reckless

Troupe Leader and founder, Fire and Steel
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 241
Posted:to Polythene...



read higher up on the thread. i listed everything the kid went through to learn.


Frederick the Reckless,
Troupe Leader,
Fire and Steel

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polythene


veteran
Location: London/ Surrey

Total posts: 1359
Posted:Ah, crap... so you did, I missed out two whole lines of text when I read that post, must've scrolled too far rolleyes . Sorry! smile

The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.

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Frederick the Reckless
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Frederick the Reckless

Troupe Leader and founder, Fire and Steel
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 241
Posted:hey, no problem. if i were annoyed at your request (even though it was a reasonable one) i would have used some sort of emoticon or something...

Frederick the Reckless,
Troupe Leader,
Fire and Steel

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FIRE_SPINNER
BRONZE Member since Nov 2004

member
Location: New South Wales

Total posts: 87
Posted:yes they should i do it am i am a early teen

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Fine_Rabid_Dog


Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...

Total posts: 10530
Posted:*nods* Yup, great argument. You do it, so that makes it ok

rolleyes


The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

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Icer
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch

Total posts: 205
Posted:if your an early teen, what are doin drinking beer on the couch? you should be out enjoying the world...before it crushes your spirit like the rest of us biggrin

It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

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FIRE_SPINNER
BRONZE Member since Nov 2004

member
Location: New South Wales

Total posts: 87
Posted:what am i doing on the drinking beer on the couch? well i have to watch the extreme sports then go out and and try to duplicate and in result break bones then go to partys and all other things young people do

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razza
SILVER Member since Jan 2006

member
Location: Helensburgh

Total posts: 43
Posted:yeah they should nothign beats seeing a littlt person runnign round with their hair on fire lol ubbrollsmile ubbrollsmile ubbrollsmile

Horsepower is how fast u hit a tree. Tourqe is how far the tree goes with u

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