Forums > Social Discussion > Should Children Spin with Fire?
Login/Join to ParticipateBRONZE Member
member
109 posts
Location: Back in the Future, United Kingdom
member
109 posts
Location: Back in the Future, United Kingdom
Posted:
I have a Niece who i would like to Introduce POI To....Obviously I'm not going to give her a set of Lighted Fire Poi and say:
"off you go then"
But i just wanted to get some Opinions on whether Minors should or should not use Fire.....
If they have the skill and they are supervised....is it ok......?
I have a Niece who i would like to Introduce POI To....Obviously I'm not going to give her a set of Lighted Fire Poi and say:
"off you go then"
But i just wanted to get some Opinions on whether Minors should or should not use Fire.....
If they have the skill and they are supervised....is it ok......?
It's a very interesting story, Future Boy....!
Living life to the full!
177 posts
Location: Rural South
177 posts
Location: Rural South
Posted:
Seriously, i'm not saying that just because a child wants to they should be allowed as will prob cause some damage. Their ability should be taken into account! If they can handle poi without fire really well, then let them have ago! But all precautions must be taken as anyone would do for their first time!
You guys are so negative!
Seriously, i'm not saying that just because a child wants to they should be allowed as will prob cause some damage. Their ability should be taken into account! If they can handle poi without fire really well, then let them have ago! But all precautions must be taken as anyone would do for their first time!
You guys are so negative!
Life is short!
So lets leave a mark,
for people to remember!
BRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
Posted:
Poi spinner age 0 - 100
, everybody can go the ball :] :R
Poi spinner age 0 - 100
, everybody can go the ball :] :R POI THEO(R)IST
stranger
80 posts
Location: Greece-Samos-Athens
80 posts
Location: Greece-Samos-Athens
Posted:
I agree with ben-ja-men. Ben could get hurt I could get hurt everyone here can get hurt, but since your kids know the danger there is nothing you can do.
I never had a bedtime... I never had tv control, I always played violent games (even though I am a girl) but trust me I am a nice person... I think that there in samoa you have many firespinners and I think that If I was a kid there I could be spinning since I was 5.
I am afraid of fire, and I respect it a lot.I try to dance with poi and not control them.Since your kids respect fire they can do everything.
But wait a minute,
If we were all telling you that it is bad and dangerous for young kids to spin fire what would you do?whould you make them stop?
it is kind of late dont you think?
I agree with ben-ja-men. Ben could get hurt I could get hurt everyone here can get hurt, but since your kids know the danger there is nothing you can do.
I never had a bedtime... I never had tv control, I always played violent games (even though I am a girl) but trust me I am a nice person... I think that there in samoa you have many firespinners and I think that If I was a kid there I could be spinning since I was 5.
I am afraid of fire, and I respect it a lot.I try to dance with poi and not control them.Since your kids respect fire they can do everything.
But wait a minute,
If we were all telling you that it is bad and dangerous for young kids to spin fire what would you do?whould you make them stop?
it is kind of late dont you think?
"For once there was an unknown land, full of strange flowers and subtle perfumes,
a land of which it is joy of all joys to dream, a land where all things are perfect and poisonous."
"Put out the torches! Hide the moon! Hide the stars!"
GOLD Member
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
1,584 posts
Location: Angels Landing, USA
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
1,584 posts
Location: Angels Landing, USA
Posted:
Maybe it's because we're americans, and I'm constantly surrounded by incompetant people with fire.
Yes there are exceptions to the rule. I acknowledge that. From my performances with fire I've been more cautious than people twice my age.
However, based on the MSDS and experiences, I can't see how you can say that it's not harmful for children to spin fire. Regardless of how good you are, there are ALWAYS fumes. That's a given.
Maybe it's because we're americans, and I'm constantly surrounded by incompetant people with fire.
Yes there are exceptions to the rule. I acknowledge that. From my performances with fire I've been more cautious than people twice my age.
However, based on the MSDS and experiences, I can't see how you can say that it's not harmful for children to spin fire. Regardless of how good you are, there are ALWAYS fumes. That's a given.
To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire
GOLD Member
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
1,584 posts
Location: Angels Landing, USA
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
1,584 posts
Location: Angels Landing, USA
Posted:
And there's a difference between being negative, and stating the TRUTH. Fumes given off by the fuel are in the long term as potentially dangerous as recieving a burn - as stated before especially for physically and psychologically developing children.
And there's a difference between being negative, and stating the TRUTH. Fumes given off by the fuel are in the long term as potentially dangerous as recieving a burn - as stated before especially for physically and psychologically developing children.
To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Well DUH!
My original point remains that I believe that it is our society's responsibility to protect children from a certain amount of risk.
It is certainly fair to debate what level that risk is. If someone wants to argue that a 17 year old should be allowed to spin fire under adult supervision, I'm fine with that. If a parent thinks there's nothing wrong with their four year old breathing fire, I'm gonna disagree.
Hopefully, we all fall somewhere in betwen.
I do think that our children are UNprotected far more often than they are OVERprotected. When it comes to children, I would rather error slightly on the side of safety and I hope others would too.
When I made this coherent arguement earlier on, people read every third word and exagerated it beyond belief. I can only assume they will do so again.
Written by: drakematrix
I think that Kael and NYC are severely over-exaggerating what has been said about children being individuals.
Well DUH!
My original point remains that I believe that it is our society's responsibility to protect children from a certain amount of risk.
It is certainly fair to debate what level that risk is. If someone wants to argue that a 17 year old should be allowed to spin fire under adult supervision, I'm fine with that. If a parent thinks there's nothing wrong with their four year old breathing fire, I'm gonna disagree.
Hopefully, we all fall somewhere in betwen.
I do think that our children are UNprotected far more often than they are OVERprotected. When it comes to children, I would rather error slightly on the side of safety and I hope others would too.
When I made this coherent arguement earlier on, people read every third word and exagerated it beyond belief. I can only assume they will do so again.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted:
so what youre really saying NYC, is that theres a greater need for doing the weave fast with sparkely poi? I absolutely disagree and unconditionally reject your argument
so what youre really saying NYC, is that theres a greater need for doing the weave fast with sparkely poi? I absolutely disagree and unconditionally reject your argument
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
SILVER Member
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Posted:
In what context? Now you guys are citing MSDS sheets. Anybody know why MSDS sheets were created? They were created for Industrial workers who deal with tonnes of the stuff every day. So that means that the language on an MSDS sheet pertains to soemone who is exposed to it all day every day. I don't know about you but I don't spin fire that much and I doubt a child would either. (NYC your a chem teacher, were my professors wrong?)
If the fumes were that bad, do you think children would be allowed in a gass station? What about propane use at home for cooking and heating? The fume issue is making a mountain out of a mole hill. Are you guys spinning fire inside with the windows sealed?
Sorry for being negative, just looking for the real truith.
Written by:
And there's a difference between being negative, and stating the TRUTH. Fumes given off by the fuel are in the long term as potentially dangerous as recieving a burn - as stated before especially for physically and psychologically developing children.
In what context? Now you guys are citing MSDS sheets. Anybody know why MSDS sheets were created? They were created for Industrial workers who deal with tonnes of the stuff every day. So that means that the language on an MSDS sheet pertains to soemone who is exposed to it all day every day. I don't know about you but I don't spin fire that much and I doubt a child would either. (NYC your a chem teacher, were my professors wrong?)
If the fumes were that bad, do you think children would be allowed in a gass station? What about propane use at home for cooking and heating? The fume issue is making a mountain out of a mole hill. Are you guys spinning fire inside with the windows sealed?
Sorry for being negative, just looking for the real truith.
Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
i agree with cody on the fumes issue - i reckon if you live in l.a., london, new york etc. and you allow a kid to walk around outside in the daytime during summer, you are exposing them to more dangerous levels of airbourne toxins than if you were to let them spin fire.
and cody is exactly right about the msds (at least for the brand of paraffin i regularly use).
it is designed for health and safety at work and assumes high levels of exposure when presenting the precautionary measures.
for skin contact it recommends that you "remove contaminated clothing. wash the skin immediately with soap and water. get medical attention if any discomfort continues."
i've got paraffin on my hands before and i didn't wash them till i got home a few hours after spinning.
i found that medical attention was not required.
they also recommend that you "wear approved safety goggles" and that you "use protective gloves made of impermeable material".
it even says that it is "not classified as a carcinogen under 67/548/EEC and the UK "CHIP" regulations."
and before anyone gets antsy for what i highlighted, i'm listing these things because i:
1. do not think that firespinning presents any more of a risk than many other activities that children are allowed and encouraged to persue and
2. that the increased risk to a child of pysiological damage through the inhalation of paraffin fumes whilst spinning fire is, imo, negligable.
my full opinions can be found on the last page but if you can't be bothered to go back and read them, i fall somewhere between the two extremes nyc posted
cole. x
i agree with cody on the fumes issue - i reckon if you live in l.a., london, new york etc. and you allow a kid to walk around outside in the daytime during summer, you are exposing them to more dangerous levels of airbourne toxins than if you were to let them spin fire.
and cody is exactly right about the msds (at least for the brand of paraffin i regularly use).
it is designed for health and safety at work and assumes high levels of exposure when presenting the precautionary measures.
for skin contact it recommends that you "remove contaminated clothing. wash the skin immediately with soap and water. get medical attention if any discomfort continues."
i've got paraffin on my hands before and i didn't wash them till i got home a few hours after spinning.
i found that medical attention was not required.
they also recommend that you "wear approved safety goggles" and that you "use protective gloves made of impermeable material".
it even says that it is "not classified as a carcinogen under 67/548/EEC and the UK "CHIP" regulations."
and before anyone gets antsy for what i highlighted, i'm listing these things because i:
1. do not think that firespinning presents any more of a risk than many other activities that children are allowed and encouraged to persue and
2. that the increased risk to a child of pysiological damage through the inhalation of paraffin fumes whilst spinning fire is, imo, negligable.
my full opinions can be found on the last page but if you can't be bothered to go back and read them, i fall somewhere between the two extremes nyc posted
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
newbie
3 posts
Location: The middle of rural no-where
3 posts
Location: The middle of rural no-where
Posted:
The summer camp I worked on last year where I first discovered poi would let the kids spin (both poi and staff) with fire, not dependant on age, but in accordance to the level of skill they were showing.
There are plenty of other dangerous activities that we take little or no notice of...like crossing the road or walking down the street in a town full of exhaust fumes and fumes from factories??
The summer camp I worked on last year where I first discovered poi would let the kids spin (both poi and staff) with fire, not dependant on age, but in accordance to the level of skill they were showing.
There are plenty of other dangerous activities that we take little or no notice of...like crossing the road or walking down the street in a town full of exhaust fumes and fumes from factories??
I steal shiney things.
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
I disagree.
I had evidence too, but I don't really want to play anymore.
If people are honestly going to equate the risk of fire spinning to that of 'crossing the road' or 'breathing in New York City' than let them do it.
It's one less paper for me to grade.
And it's Darwinism at it's finest.
Written by: coleman
1. do not think that firespinning presents any more of a risk than many other activities that children are allowed and encouraged to persue
I disagree.
I had evidence too, but I don't really want to play anymore.
If people are honestly going to equate the risk of fire spinning to that of 'crossing the road' or 'breathing in New York City' than let them do it.
It's one less paper for me to grade.
And it's Darwinism at it's finest.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
grumpy poorly froggy
3,999 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom
grumpy poorly froggy
3,999 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom
Posted:
my son is 11 and he spins fire. we do have rules.
he wears a boiler suit which has flame retardent stuff on it as well as a beany. and he only does things that he can do with his practice poi without hitting himself. we aslo have a fire blanket but he is very competent. i think it depends on the maturity of the child.
my son is 11 and he spins fire. we do have rules.
he wears a boiler suit which has flame retardent stuff on it as well as a beany. and he only does things that he can do with his practice poi without hitting himself. we aslo have a fire blanket but he is very competent. i think it depends on the maturity of the child.
Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows
BRONZE Member
Member
87 posts
Location: frankston, Australia
Member
87 posts
Location: frankston, Australia
Posted:
i think if you teach a child with the right amount of moves and dicipline they could pick up a set of poi better than you
i think if you teach a child with the right amount of moves and dicipline they could pick up a set of poi better than you
fire is a living thing it can breath and it eats so respect the fire
BRONZE Member
grumpy poorly froggy
3,999 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom
grumpy poorly froggy
3,999 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom
Posted:
yup my youngest is going to be a bad ass at it when he's older (No he doesn't do fire so a little bit off topic) but he does poi, enjoys it and is 4. so i guess its how experianced the child is.
yup my youngest is going to be a bad ass at it when he's older (No he doesn't do fire so a little bit off topic) but he does poi, enjoys it and is 4. so i guess its how experianced the child is.
Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows
GOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
Posted:
I don't see any reason why kids shouldn't spin fire. If they are good enough and rarely hit themselves and you train them how to be responsible.
I mean I've injured myself way more by falling off bikes in my life than i ever have spinning fire. I just don't think it's all that dangerous. The worst accident I ever had with fire poi was with 5 feet of 4 inch wicking slam into my cheek. I had glasses on but i thought i had done myself some injury. Turned out I had done absolutely no harm. So I'm not sure how dangerous a little pair of wicks actually are. I mean I wouldn't let a child use anything but parafin because it burns at such low temperature. Get them some safety gear and teach them what to do if they are in trouble.
Admitidly I've met a lot of kids I would never let spin because they have absolutely no coordination or thought for their actions but my friends son is 7 and he's easily good enough to spin fire.
m
I don't see any reason why kids shouldn't spin fire. If they are good enough and rarely hit themselves and you train them how to be responsible.
I mean I've injured myself way more by falling off bikes in my life than i ever have spinning fire. I just don't think it's all that dangerous. The worst accident I ever had with fire poi was with 5 feet of 4 inch wicking slam into my cheek. I had glasses on but i thought i had done myself some injury. Turned out I had done absolutely no harm. So I'm not sure how dangerous a little pair of wicks actually are. I mean I wouldn't let a child use anything but parafin because it burns at such low temperature. Get them some safety gear and teach them what to do if they are in trouble.
Admitidly I've met a lot of kids I would never let spin because they have absolutely no coordination or thought for their actions but my friends son is 7 and he's easily good enough to spin fire.
m
Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
this thread has gone on for 5 pages yet you claim that you 'had' (have?) evidence that proves firespinning is more dangerous for children than other high risk sports?
post it.
you quoted me then suggest that i equated the risk of firespinning to crossing the road or breathing in nyc.
that is blatently not what i said and i'm certain you know this
i think the actual activity of firespinning is comparable, in terms of risk of injury, to other sports like gymnastics, skiing, contact martial arts, surfing and so on.
i think the other argument that 'fumes breathed in whilst firespinning could have a massive detrimental effect on a child' is a non-starter -i have seen no evidence to suggest that it is any worse than the kind damage a child could expect from spending a day out in the city.
firespinning would not be a regular activity and so fume inhalation is rare (hence making it comparable to living in a city).
use of cleaner burning, low temperature fuels like lamp oil reduce this risk to a completely acceptable level for me.
cole. x
EDITED_BY: coleman (1115725771)
Written by: NYCWritten by: coleman
1. do not think that firespinning presents any more of a risk than many other activities that children are allowed and encouraged to persue
I disagree.
I had evidence too, but I don't really want to play anymore.
If people are honestly going to equate the risk of fire spinning to that of 'crossing the road' or 'breathing in New York City' than let them do it.
It's one less paper for me to grade.
And it's Darwinism at it's finest.
this thread has gone on for 5 pages yet you claim that you 'had' (have?) evidence that proves firespinning is more dangerous for children than other high risk sports?
post it.
you quoted me then suggest that i equated the risk of firespinning to crossing the road or breathing in nyc.
that is blatently not what i said and i'm certain you know this
i think the actual activity of firespinning is comparable, in terms of risk of injury, to other sports like gymnastics, skiing, contact martial arts, surfing and so on.
i think the other argument that 'fumes breathed in whilst firespinning could have a massive detrimental effect on a child' is a non-starter -i have seen no evidence to suggest that it is any worse than the kind damage a child could expect from spending a day out in the city.
firespinning would not be a regular activity and so fume inhalation is rare (hence making it comparable to living in a city).
use of cleaner burning, low temperature fuels like lamp oil reduce this risk to a completely acceptable level for me.
cole. x
EDITED_BY: coleman (1115725771)
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Posted:
I dont spin with fire much but when I do I usually feel hungover the next day. I call it my kero hangover. I rarely spin for long or lots.
So its either the late night or the kero as I am not drinking.
Other ppl have this same problem. Valura had a thread on it [Old link] . It cant be good for us but in terms of long term risk keep it in mind when someone does a study in ten years time.
I think with kids its about minimising risk but not eliminating it.
I dont spin with fire much but when I do I usually feel hungover the next day. I call it my kero hangover. I rarely spin for long or lots.
So its either the late night or the kero as I am not drinking.
Other ppl have this same problem. Valura had a thread on it [Old link] . It cant be good for us but in terms of long term risk keep it in mind when someone does a study in ten years time.
I think with kids its about minimising risk but not eliminating it.
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu
BRONZE Member
Retro Fyre Wizzard
538 posts
Location: Pietermaritzburg (KZN), South Africa
Retro Fyre Wizzard
538 posts
Location: Pietermaritzburg (KZN), South Africa
Posted:
i have taught a 12yr old to spin... and when she was happy (and i was happy) she started using fire!
She's knocked herself around less than i have (don't you hate it when tha happens!?)
i have taught a 12yr old to spin... and when she was happy (and i was happy) she started using fire!
She's knocked herself around less than i have (don't you hate it when tha happens!?)
Regards 
Shu
(Ice-E FyreStorm - Group Manager & Performer)
You know those people your parentals warned you about?... I'M ONE OF THEM! 
Yes, i do bite!!
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
Surfing? Now there's a sport: elemental, unpredictable, thrilling, addictive and dangerous. Surfers have to know how to read the weather, the tides, the terrain, the currents, the waves and the behaviour of other surfers. They have to attain extraordinary self awareness, physical control, poise and fitness. In terms of safety, to be able to deal with drowning, concussion, broken limbs and a variety of peripherals up to potentially lethal bites and stings. It's a common sport in this part of the world. Noone would dream of making kids wait till they 'grew up' to begin. Quite the opposite. You see the grommets out there with their elders, while they are still at their maximum capacity to learn and integrate it all. By the time they leave school they can be champions.
It's quite funny to see the unco adults trying to learn while the kids already have it sussed....
Surfing? Now there's a sport: elemental, unpredictable, thrilling, addictive and dangerous. Surfers have to know how to read the weather, the tides, the terrain, the currents, the waves and the behaviour of other surfers. They have to attain extraordinary self awareness, physical control, poise and fitness. In terms of safety, to be able to deal with drowning, concussion, broken limbs and a variety of peripherals up to potentially lethal bites and stings. It's a common sport in this part of the world. Noone would dream of making kids wait till they 'grew up' to begin. Quite the opposite. You see the grommets out there with their elders, while they are still at their maximum capacity to learn and integrate it all. By the time they leave school they can be champions.
It's quite funny to see the unco adults trying to learn while the kids already have it sussed....
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
GOLD Member
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
1,584 posts
Location: Angels Landing, USA
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
1,584 posts
Location: Angels Landing, USA
Posted:
There's a vast difference between surfing on the 3 foot waves of most places and the 20 foot ones in Hawaii.
That's why all the kiddies stay on the safe side and respect that which would probably kill them, and don't go.
A lot of the most dangerous waters you sometimes even need permits to get to.
How can we relate this to fire?
There's a vast difference between surfing on the 3 foot waves of most places and the 20 foot ones in Hawaii.
That's why all the kiddies stay on the safe side and respect that which would probably kill them, and don't go.
A lot of the most dangerous waters you sometimes even need permits to get to.
How can we relate this to fire?
To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire
SILVER Member
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Posted:
Try my fire props
I would not let a child use my props, I know there too dangerous.
Check out my gallery.
EDITED_BY: Cody (1115762457)
Written by:
How can we relate this to fire?
Try my fire props
I would not let a child use my props, I know there too dangerous.
Check out my gallery.
EDITED_BY: Cody (1115762457)
Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Interesting how you changed "activities that children are encouraged to pursue" to "high risk sports" AFTER I agreed with it.
I was looking up the low instances of children being injured in normal activites but since you changed it to "high risk sports" obviously that changes things.
How could you argue that firespinning is not high risk if you, yourself suddenly are calling it a "high risk sport" just to prove me wrong?
This is the kind of stuff that makes me grumpier than the original topic.
But another factor:
If a kid got killed spinning fire, there'd be a damn governmental task force on it and we'd all be done for in my country.
Fox news would eat that up for weeks.
Written by: colemanWritten by: coleman
1. do not think that firespinning presents any more of a risk than many other activities that children are allowed and encouraged to persue
this thread has gone on for 5 pages yet you claim that you 'had' (have?) evidence that proves firespinning is more dangerous for children than other high risk sports?
Interesting how you changed "activities that children are encouraged to pursue" to "high risk sports" AFTER I agreed with it.
I was looking up the low instances of children being injured in normal activites but since you changed it to "high risk sports" obviously that changes things.
How could you argue that firespinning is not high risk if you, yourself suddenly are calling it a "high risk sport" just to prove me wrong?
This is the kind of stuff that makes me grumpier than the original topic.
But another factor:
If a kid got killed spinning fire, there'd be a damn governmental task force on it and we'd all be done for in my country.
Fox news would eat that up for weeks.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
SILVER Member
old hand
768 posts
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
old hand
768 posts
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Posted:
This is an interesting point, because it probably would happen this way. On the other hand, while rare, there have been instances of high school athletes dying or sustaining serious injury from playing football (the american version). Yet I have never encountered a debate about whether or not kids should play football because it's too dangerous. (This probably has to do with the fact that American culture as a whole tends to be uncomfortable with physicality outside of sports, and athletes tend to be glorified in our culture.)
What takes me aback about this thread though, is the vehemence with which those in the "kids should never spin fire" camp express their opinion and the judgment that those who allow kids to spin fire are doing something reprehensible. I mean why is age more of a factor than skill? Suppose there's a 14 year old who's been spinning since s/he was 7 and a 30 year old who's only been spinning for two months. Is the take then, that it's safer/more appropriate, more "right" that the 30 year-old should do fire if s/he wants but that it would be "wrong" for the more experienced but younger person to do so?
And as to the toxicity issue, it's not like we're (the fire community at large) are encouraging huffing or anything. Back when there were more full-service gas-stations around (when I was a kid), I knew older teen-age boys (17, 18 year olds) who worked at those stations. While they weren't burning anything, they were exposed to gas fumes and exhaust for hours at a time. So was it inappropriate that the gas-stations hired those kids? What about kids who mow lawns as their summer jobs and handle fuel and push exhaust-spewing lawn-mowers around all day -- is that wrong too? Those kids probably inhale more fumes than someone who spins fire would. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the concerns about toxicity seem a bit overstated to me.
In short, I agree that if the young person wants to spin fire, if they are supervised and skilled, they should be allowed to do so.
Written by: NYC
But another factor:
If a kid got killed spinning fire, there'd be a damn governmental task force on it and we'd all be done for in my country.
Fox news would eat that up for weeks.
This is an interesting point, because it probably would happen this way. On the other hand, while rare, there have been instances of high school athletes dying or sustaining serious injury from playing football (the american version). Yet I have never encountered a debate about whether or not kids should play football because it's too dangerous. (This probably has to do with the fact that American culture as a whole tends to be uncomfortable with physicality outside of sports, and athletes tend to be glorified in our culture.)
What takes me aback about this thread though, is the vehemence with which those in the "kids should never spin fire" camp express their opinion and the judgment that those who allow kids to spin fire are doing something reprehensible. I mean why is age more of a factor than skill? Suppose there's a 14 year old who's been spinning since s/he was 7 and a 30 year old who's only been spinning for two months. Is the take then, that it's safer/more appropriate, more "right" that the 30 year-old should do fire if s/he wants but that it would be "wrong" for the more experienced but younger person to do so?
And as to the toxicity issue, it's not like we're (the fire community at large) are encouraging huffing or anything. Back when there were more full-service gas-stations around (when I was a kid), I knew older teen-age boys (17, 18 year olds) who worked at those stations. While they weren't burning anything, they were exposed to gas fumes and exhaust for hours at a time. So was it inappropriate that the gas-stations hired those kids? What about kids who mow lawns as their summer jobs and handle fuel and push exhaust-spewing lawn-mowers around all day -- is that wrong too? Those kids probably inhale more fumes than someone who spins fire would. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the concerns about toxicity seem a bit overstated to me.
In short, I agree that if the young person wants to spin fire, if they are supervised and skilled, they should be allowed to do so.
taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco
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625 posts
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand
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625 posts
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
having spun with lots of different fuels i would have to disagree, it really depends alot on what your spinning with, when i first started spinning with kero brought from the shop i got quite a ill feeling the day after and i was spinning with little itsy bitsy wicks. having also spun with ksol and d60 mmmmmmm d60 they are VERY VERY different in not only their burn temperature but also the fumes they give off. i think that the toxiticy issue is a valid point (for adults and children alike) i also think that easy to access information about which fuels are less toxic and what temperature they burn at is a way to address this problem.
Written by: blueboy
And as to the toxicity issue, it's not like we're (the fire community at large) are encouraging huffing or anything. *edit snip* I guess what I'm trying to say is that the concerns about toxicity seem a bit overstated to me.
having spun with lots of different fuels i would have to disagree, it really depends alot on what your spinning with, when i first started spinning with kero brought from the shop i got quite a ill feeling the day after and i was spinning with little itsy bitsy wicks. having also spun with ksol and d60 mmmmmmm d60 they are VERY VERY different in not only their burn temperature but also the fumes they give off. i think that the toxiticy issue is a valid point (for adults and children alike) i also think that easy to access information about which fuels are less toxic and what temperature they burn at is a way to address this problem.
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
excuse me for my bluntness but i did not change it.
i am not and have never argued that firespinning should not be perceived as high risk.
i am arguing that firspinning has risks comparable to many other activities that children persue and that, as has been done with those activities, minimising the risk of firespinning through training and supervision can make it a perfectly acceptable activity for certain children to partake in.
'many other activities' refers to those activities i have mentioned in numerous previous posts.
the activities that i have been comparing firespinning to have been the same all along - sports such as gymnastics, surfing, martial arts.
so i am not suddenly calling it a high risk activity at all - the activities i have been citing as comparable are the ones with high risk of injury.
in fact the increased risk of injury is how i have been choosing comparable activities.
i fully accept firespinning has a higher likelihood of injury per capita than riding a bike or crossing the road or playing football or standing near a campfire, but not from many other activities that children persue (want more examples? horseriding, motorcross, go karting).
i said back on page two that i think the dangers imposed by firespinning demand a very controlled approach:
from my first post here:
i have been stating my belief that the risks imposed by firespinning are comparable to many other activities that children are allowed and encouraged to persue that, using your language, have a higher than average risk of injury per capita.
i have, all along, been trying to show that firespinning is comparable in risk to these sports and that since children are not banned from doing those sports until they are 18 but rather are given special training, supervision and encouragement when they express a wish to partake, that a similar attitude could be taken with firespinning.
ahem... from page 2:
my reply to which was:
now who's not reading what's been written?
i have not changed what i am comparing firespinning to.
cole. x
p.s. the risk to health from fumes issue i have been comparing to the risk to health of living in a city and i stand by it.
but we all know we could and would give our children safety masks and goggles to spin fire in anyway so it is not an issue from my point of view.
Written by: NYCWritten by: colemanWritten by: coleman
1. do not think that firespinning presents any more of a risk than many other activities that children are allowed and encouraged to persue
this thread has gone on for 5 pages yet you claim that you 'had' (have?) evidence that proves firespinning is more dangerous for children than other high risk sports?
Interesting how you changed "activities that children are encouraged to pursue" to "high risk sports" AFTER I agreed with it.
...
How could you argue that firespinning is not high risk if you, yourself suddenly are calling it a "high risk sport" just to prove me wrong?
This is the kind of stuff that makes me grumpier than the original topic.
excuse me for my bluntness but i did not change it.
i am not and have never argued that firespinning should not be perceived as high risk.
i am arguing that firspinning has risks comparable to many other activities that children persue and that, as has been done with those activities, minimising the risk of firespinning through training and supervision can make it a perfectly acceptable activity for certain children to partake in.
'many other activities' refers to those activities i have mentioned in numerous previous posts.
the activities that i have been comparing firespinning to have been the same all along - sports such as gymnastics, surfing, martial arts.
so i am not suddenly calling it a high risk activity at all - the activities i have been citing as comparable are the ones with high risk of injury.
in fact the increased risk of injury is how i have been choosing comparable activities.
i fully accept firespinning has a higher likelihood of injury per capita than riding a bike or crossing the road or playing football or standing near a campfire, but not from many other activities that children persue (want more examples? horseriding, motorcross, go karting).
i said back on page two that i think the dangers imposed by firespinning demand a very controlled approach:
Written by: coleman
i'm saying, it makes more sense to let them do it very occasionally with full safety supervision than to say "no, you're simply not old enough yet."
"you're not good enough yet" is what should preclude them from them from trying it out.
from my first post here:
Written by: coleman
is surfing too dangerous when a child could very well learn to skateboard until they are perceived to be old enough to swim in the sea?
i have been stating my belief that the risks imposed by firespinning are comparable to many other activities that children are allowed and encouraged to persue that, using your language, have a higher than average risk of injury per capita.
i have, all along, been trying to show that firespinning is comparable in risk to these sports and that since children are not banned from doing those sports until they are 18 but rather are given special training, supervision and encouragement when they express a wish to partake, that a similar attitude could be taken with firespinning.
Written by: NYC
I was looking up the low instances of children being injured in normal activites but since you changed it to "high risk sports" obviously that changes things.
ahem... from page 2:
Written by: NYC
I think kids should be kept away from things with HIGH per capita injurys.
my reply to which was:
Written by: coleman
then we would be devoid of the world best gymnasts, skateboarders, snowboarders, trampolinists, martial artists, surfers, mountain bikers, bmx'ers and so on.
you may see that as a small loss to prevent a few broken bones but i don't - i see it as a restriction that with proper time and effort invested, need not be placed upon them.
this is completely unbased in fact but, i think you'll find in all of these sports, if you compare the number of per capita injuries of those over 15 to those under 15, the second figure will be *drastically* lower due to the high amount of supervision given to children practicing these sports.
now who's not reading what's been written?
i have not changed what i am comparing firespinning to.
cole. x
p.s. the risk to health from fumes issue i have been comparing to the risk to health of living in a city and i stand by it.
but we all know we could and would give our children safety masks and goggles to spin fire in anyway so it is not an issue from my point of view.
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Here's a link to some stats on sports injuries in children
https://www.childrenshospital.org/cfapps/...cidence%20Rates
===============
I think it's worth noting that there's a difference between organised sports activities that are high-risk, and fire arts.
Both are risky and can lead to serious injury occasionally, but the sports stuff tends to be well-organised and run by trained staff who have a duty of care to the young people taking part, and who are accountable.
This is in sharp contrast to many scenarios in which young people learn fire arts, which, in worst case scenarios, will involve a group with little, if any, safety equipment, with members who could well be drunk or stoned, who have little concern for safety, and who see fire spinning scars as something to be proud of.
Not all groups, by any means, but definitly some.
Even the best organised of such groups are likely to be lacking in some respects.
Last year I went to a juggling club in a different part of the country, and was very impressed by the enthusiasm and energy of the members, some of whom were young people.
I was saddened when, near the end, some went outside to do various fire stuff, and a boy who looked to be about fourteen was fire breathing.
I did talk about it to the organiser (though felt it wasn't my place to be overly critical) and it was apparent that he had no idea of how dangerous fire breathing could be, or of the fact that, if a accident had happened, he would likely be legally responsible for the consequences.
There have also been many stories posted here on HOP about extremely irresponsible behaviour amongst some fire spinners.
Of course, it's only a portion of spinners; nevertheless, the environment in which young people tend to pick up fire arts cannot be compared to those in which they practise organised high-risk sports such as gymnastics.
Here's a link to some stats on sports injuries in children
https://www.childrenshospital.org/cfapps/...cidence%20Rates
===============
I think it's worth noting that there's a difference between organised sports activities that are high-risk, and fire arts.
Both are risky and can lead to serious injury occasionally, but the sports stuff tends to be well-organised and run by trained staff who have a duty of care to the young people taking part, and who are accountable.
This is in sharp contrast to many scenarios in which young people learn fire arts, which, in worst case scenarios, will involve a group with little, if any, safety equipment, with members who could well be drunk or stoned, who have little concern for safety, and who see fire spinning scars as something to be proud of.
Not all groups, by any means, but definitly some.
Even the best organised of such groups are likely to be lacking in some respects.
Last year I went to a juggling club in a different part of the country, and was very impressed by the enthusiasm and energy of the members, some of whom were young people.
I was saddened when, near the end, some went outside to do various fire stuff, and a boy who looked to be about fourteen was fire breathing.
I did talk about it to the organiser (though felt it wasn't my place to be overly critical) and it was apparent that he had no idea of how dangerous fire breathing could be, or of the fact that, if a accident had happened, he would likely be legally responsible for the consequences.
There have also been many stories posted here on HOP about extremely irresponsible behaviour amongst some fire spinners.
Of course, it's only a portion of spinners; nevertheless, the environment in which young people tend to pick up fire arts cannot be compared to those in which they practise organised high-risk sports such as gymnastics.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
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big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
that's because fire arts are not nearly as established as those sports are yet imo.
its the chicken and egg argument.
the point is that we can take cues from those established sports in recognising that although the activity is intrinsically dangerous to learn in terms of risk of injury, that with enough care, the risk can be minimised and that that, coupled with close supervision and training, can create a safe environment for children to learn them in.
i wasn't suggesting that children be introduced to the fire arts in anywhere like the environment that we practice in and i have already expressed that.
i would have had the same concerns as you had in the situation you described dave.
although i do not have any children of my own, if i did and they learnt to spin and later expressed an interest in the fire arts, i would not simply say "no - you're under 18".
cole. x
that's because fire arts are not nearly as established as those sports are yet imo.
its the chicken and egg argument.
the point is that we can take cues from those established sports in recognising that although the activity is intrinsically dangerous to learn in terms of risk of injury, that with enough care, the risk can be minimised and that that, coupled with close supervision and training, can create a safe environment for children to learn them in.
i wasn't suggesting that children be introduced to the fire arts in anywhere like the environment that we practice in and i have already expressed that.
i would have had the same concerns as you had in the situation you described dave.
although i do not have any children of my own, if i did and they learnt to spin and later expressed an interest in the fire arts, i would not simply say "no - you're under 18".
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Yeah, that makes sense; if fire arts were taught in the way that other high-risk sports are (ie supervised by experts in a controlled environment with full safety facilities), eg gymnastics, then I do believe that that would be appropriate for certain children who show high potenetial and a developed sense of responsibility.
Currently, such is not the case and is unlikely to become so in the near future though; and that is why I wanted to question the analogy of fire arts to other high-risk sports (ie not disagreeing so much as clarifying).
Yeah, that makes sense; if fire arts were taught in the way that other high-risk sports are (ie supervised by experts in a controlled environment with full safety facilities), eg gymnastics, then I do believe that that would be appropriate for certain children who show high potenetial and a developed sense of responsibility.
Currently, such is not the case and is unlikely to become so in the near future though; and that is why I wanted to question the analogy of fire arts to other high-risk sports (ie not disagreeing so much as clarifying).
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
I agree.
Written by: onewheeldave
Yeah, that makes sense; if fire arts were taught in the way that other high-risk sports are (ie supervised by experts in a controlled environment with full safety facilities), eg gymnastics, then I do believe that that would be appropriate for certain children who show high potenetial and a developed sense of responsibility.
I agree.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
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