• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Forums > Social Discussion > Should Children Spin with Fire?

Login/Join to Participate
Page: 12345...7
Hairy Tait
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Hairy Tait

member
Location: Back in the Future

Total posts: 109
Posted:I have a Niece who i would like to Introduce POI To....Obviously I'm not going to give her a set of Lighted Fire Poi and say:
"off you go then"
But i just wanted to get some Opinions on whether Minors should or should not use Fire.....
If they have the skill and they are supervised....is it ok......?


It's a very interesting story, Future Boy....!

Delete Topic

munkypunks
GOLD Member since Jan 2005

munkypunks

enthusiast, but not enthusiastic
Location: Los Angeles, California

Total posts: 367
Posted:the same ones that apply to anyone else spinning fire......o, you meant applicable only to children.....that would be decided by each state, I assume. I wouldn't think so, but I have no idea.

You can't fall off the floor, but sometimes you need a chair to reach the cookie jar.

Delete

Cody
SILVER Member since Sep 2003

Cody

That guy from Reno
Location: Reno, Nevada USA

Total posts: 556
Posted:Written by:
because, quite frankly, if I knew that someone was allowing a child to spin fire in my area, I would call the fire marshall on that person and let the law take it from there (and our fire marshall here does not condone that at all...it is part of an agreement that we came to actually).



Sorry NYC, The above quote from Pele is what kind of has me off.

I fully understand reporting as you are charged to do. I guess I took it personally that if Pele lived in Reno and called our fire marshall because I have a spinner that's 12 just because she didn't like it, I'd have a problem with that. She wouldn't be reporting an injury as discussed. There is no problem, but there would be if someone started a ruccas. The entire fire community in Reno would be in jepordy for no reason. We have been perfect for the last five years since we started, permited and all. We jump through any hoops they ask us to. We have never had a problem, and that's why we are permited. But if someone started throwing stones in our grass houses, were done for.

I pride myself in teaching some of the most strict fire safety arround. Ever hear of burning man? Every safety has to be trained at my camp. Leah is probably more educated and has a better understanding of fire than 80% of the spinners out there. True she is what I consider an anomaly, which is why it upsets me that someone would blindly trash the whole thing.
mad


Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada

Delete

Konsti


Konsti

lovable smart-ass
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria

Total posts: 785
Posted:Written by:
if I knew that someone was allowing a child to spin fire in my area, I would call the fire marshall on that person and let the law take it from there



wtf?
i sorta missed that while reading he thread for the first time.

thats so wrong. creating trouble for no reason. I completely agree with cody.


"is optimism in austria just a lack of information?"
-Alfred Dorfer

Delete

Cody
SILVER Member since Sep 2003

Cody

That guy from Reno
Location: Reno, Nevada USA

Total posts: 556
Posted:In case your interested, here's a link to Lea's member page on out website. Donna is her mother.
Leah & Donna


Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada

Delete

NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Anna-pananna

Are you saying that the people you know who've had serious burns have got them from fire spinning, not from something else?

I promise, I'm not trying to disrespect your points or anything, I just want to clarify what you're saying.



Yes.

People I know who got very seriously burned spinning fire: 1
People I know who got 2nd degree burns spinning fire: Quite a few
People I know who got minor burns spinning fire: Countless

Any friend of mine that got burned in any other way in the past 3 years (or myself): 0


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3288
Posted:Ive been up against this issue a lot lately, cuz some people in our fire circle are comfortable with young kids <15 using fire and I'm basically not. I had a situation recently where a 12 year old I didnt know asked to use one of my sticks 'to practice with'. I said yeah no worries, he was fine til his 10-12year old mate took the stick off him and went over to the kero to dip...I had to censor him, and I think I copped a lot of flak for that too, in the laissez faire fire culture that seems to have emerged in adelaide.

I think for the safety of the children In general you need a blanket rule which is applied to all newcomers to fire twirling circles under the age of 15 (say) where they are required to prove their competance on poi without fire to a very high level before they are allowed to do fire (this means months and months of unlit practice), at which point they are loaned fire tools for use under close supervision by an experienced adult (not the parents - they often have no clue as to the dangers, and often just walk off and chat with ppl). After a few months of fire practice like that, then perhaps they could be given a set of poi or a stick.

It seems to me that ppl are arguing about the censorship of 'anomalous' children who are unusually mature - I think these children should not be censored, but I think they need to differentiate themselves from the 'normal' children _before_ being handed lit fire poi.

I know of at least 2 kids aged under 14 who are responsible fire spinners who I wouldnt have any issues spinning fire with me, and I know of a lot of under 16s who are also responsible. Ive also met many many under 16s who should never be anywhere near fire and a couple of under 60s (yeah fullgrown adults) who also are not responsible enough to be let near fire poi. Its not about the exceptions its about the generalisation you have to make when you meet new ppl. Is anyone going to argue against the statement "12 year olds generally take longer to understand the dangers of doing fire poi than 25 year olds?" Cuz unless you are arguing against that you must also accept that children need to be treated differently in terms of readiness to take risks that adults.

I think its grossly irresponsible to hand lit poi to an untested adult, and its truly negligent to hand lit poi to an untested child.

Mandatory notification (wot NYC is talking about) exists in most westernised countries, and for good reason IMHO.


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

Delete

Wild Child
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

Wild Child

Star Trekker
Location: Cheshire

Total posts: 1733
Posted:Amen to that - thanx for putting my feelings so succinctly

'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus

Delete

Hairy Tait
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Hairy Tait

member
Location: Back in the Future

Total posts: 109
Posted:Written by: Anna-pananna

[


I wonder what Hairy Tait thinks about this now... are you there Hairy Tait? What are you thinking? We have rather bombarded you with opinions on the matter haven't we! ubblol



Hey.....

Thanks for such a wealthy response.... I really didn't expect to generate so much Interest......
As i said earlier it was a purely theoretrical question ( but one that clearly matters...) and it would indeed be years before my neice would use fire... If indeed any form of POI.... who knows she might not be into it at all....

From what i've heard from everyone else... and i'm really not trying to get anyone's back up about it... That it really should be at the consent of the parent /guardian and depend on the childs individual skill/ maturity/ responsibility/ education on fire and attitude.....

I think it was Psycho44 who said that...if you deny children something they want to do...they inevitably find someway of doing it behind your back where they might not have enough supervision,...and that's where accident are likely to happen... or at least more likely to happen

There are plenty children i've met that have a very mature and responsible attitude towards things like this....and for example extreme sports.... and plenty of irresponible adults, that don't equally......

I daresay some people just shouldn't play with fire, and some have the correct attitude towards it , know the dangers but take appropriate precautions.......





I'm In India.. web connections can be few and far between.......!!! weavesmiley


It's a very interesting story, Future Boy....!

Delete

TeeJay


TeeJay

member
Location: Malaeimi, Am. Samoa

Total posts: 75
Posted:This is a very personal subject for me as I have three sons - ages 12, 14, and 15 who are all fireknife dancers. Believe it or not, I'm actually a pretty overprotective mother - they are not allowed to even swim in the ocean unless I'm right there, and they aren't allowed to play football either.
However, they have been fireknife dancing since my youngest was 9 and yes, they have had a few burns, but they have had worse injuries playing with their friends at school (Samoan kids are notoriously rough).
My kids know what to do in an emergency - and my youngest had just such an emergency happen the other night when he got handed a pair of doubles which had not been spun off. He did exactly what he was trained to do when his upper body caught fire - he dropped his knives, patted the flames out, and by that time the safety was there - it all happened under 2 seconds.
His injuries, because of his training, were minor enough that they were healed in 4 days and he will be dancing again this weekend.
I'm unsure about poi, which strikes me as more dangerous because it can get wrapped around you, but I know that there are many young fireknife dancers out there - there are Junior divisions at L.A. (my youngest holds the children's title there), Hawaii, Am. Samoa, and Samoa. My 15 year old holds the Am Samoa title and has placed in every competition. At the PCC in Hawaii they have a children's division for kids from 6 to 11.
In L.A., when my kids needed to burn off their knives, we had to go to the fire department's training center, where the fire marshal was present.
There are probably quite a few differences between poi and fireknife though - such as the fact that my boys are not allowed to spin fire in anything but an ie (loincloth). Their hair must be wet and they are sprayed with water before they dance.
Another difference may be that Samoan kids are given a lot more responsiblity at younger ages than kids in the States (I don't know about Europe), and are often much more mature.
At any rate, it's is the standard, not the exeption, that fireknife dancers begin around the age of 7 or 8, and are masters by the time they are 14 or 15.
Unlike many parents, i know where my kids are at all times, they have a bedtime, the video games are limited (and monitored for violence, etc.). I know for a fact that they don't do drugs, drink, or smoke, and are very unlikely to do so. They are also very open about questions having to do with anything (puberty, peer pressure, sex, etc.)
Kids need outlets - we keep them as safe as we can but rollerblading and surfing are just as dangerous as fire dancing. Sex, drugs, and alcohol are even more so.

Teejay


Delete

Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)

Total posts: 625
Posted:ditto



Imo the kids over there are more profesional and better spiners than most of the adults who post here.



The whole lifestyle is different, i dont even think westerners can comprehend the tradition. When its round you all the time, when your whole family is involved, and your out there cutting grass with the machette in the day and performing at night, its just life.



Its a WHOLE lot different in NZ though. I agree with Josh...kids have to "prove" before you can let them burn.

EDITED_BY: Dr4g0n7 (1115364669)


Delete

Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:I did,

play with fire as a kid smile

didnt we all ?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Delete

quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:Cody: 'In case your interested, here's a link to Lea's member page on out website. Donna is her mother.
Leah & Donna'

--------------------

To be honest, I think it's downright irresponsible (not to mention worrying) to let a 12- or 13- year old girl engage in 'rave dancing with glowsticks'. *Rave dancing?* Do you have any idea what happy hardcore can do to the developing mind? Some of those rigs can turn your brain to jelly if not used carefully.

On a more serious note, I'm not too comfortable with <15s doing fire; but that's mostly because most of them aren't particularly responsible, and I think you've got to display a wee bit of care when you're spinning. But then, I suppose there are mature and responsible 13/14s in the world. As everyone has been saying, it all depends.


ture na sig

Delete

Cody
SILVER Member since Sep 2003

Cody

That guy from Reno
Location: Reno, Nevada USA

Total posts: 556
Posted:We let leah write her own bio for the web site. smile

Now that I've cooled down I should clarify that I don't think that all children should be allowed to spin fire, but there are special cases where it can be allowed. In leah's case, she is more mature, coordinated, safe and respectful of fire than many of the other fire spinners I know. She is the special case. And it is rare. That is why out of a community of over 200 spinners, she is the only child. Others want to but I won't let them because they are not ready mentally and physically.
TeeJay's kids are also apparently special cases, but if there burning in Reno There gonna be wearing cotton. wink Sorry, My rule. tongue


Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada

Delete

MillenniuM
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

MillenniuM

Hyperloops suck


Total posts: 595
Posted:"Imo the kids over there are more profesional and better spiners than most of the adults who post here. "

And why is this? Because they were introduced to fire and its at an early age. If in Samoa they had the same policy of fire-information abstinance, their situation would be no different than ours.

Many of you are getting off track - this is not a matter of if minors can legally spin fire, it is whether or not they SHOULD. I don't care if the parents can get in trouble, I don't care if CPS will attack my parents with billy clubs... that isn't the issue here.

I'm closing in on 18 years of age, and as a few of the members on this board can attest to, a fairly competent spinner. I've been spinning for nearly 2 years, with fire my first time after 3 or 4 months of unlit practice. I did so without parental supervision, or even, informing my parents that I was doing it. I knew my mom would say no. I know it is easier to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission, so I spun fire on a beach with a few friends.

Safety precautions were anything but spectacular. If I had told my parents, I'm quite confident they would have supported me financially to get the safety necessary - but since my parents follow the same thinking as Pele, Lightning, and others on this thread, I was put in heightened danger. Sure, fire spinning is dangerous - but it is more dangerous when it is secretive.


Delete

NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:It always worries me when people use "I did it and didn't die so therefore it's safe" logic.

Whether it's about sex, drugs, russian roulette or fire spinning, it's always unsound logic.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

Anna-pananna


Anna-pananna

Thinking...
Location: Oxford

Total posts: 179
Posted:NYC, I don't think you can compare fire spinning to sex, drugs, or russian roulette! Fire spinning involves skill, that's why SOME children/young people, despite being 'minors' can do it: they possess the skill (plus everything else that's been mentioned in this discussion- maturity, rationality, etc.) that is necessary to spin successfully. It is not a GAMBLE. I do agree that it's silly to use the "I did it and didn't die so therefore it's safe" logic, but I don't think anyone here is actually suggesting that! They're sharing their own experiences, and are in fact agreeing with you in some ways- they're saying that for many it would be unsafe, but personally for them (or their children/nephews/friends/ etc.) it is as safe as firespinning can be.

Practice as if your hair was on fire...

Delete

KaelGotRice
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA

Total posts: 1584
Posted:though it can be argued that sex and drugs are 'skills' also.

Maturity in a large part is not based on age. Afterall I've seen 10 year olds more mature and learned than some 40 year olds I've met.

However, there should be some minimum age, like said before you are still growing and the fumes, much like drugs are bound to have SOME sort of negative effect on growth and development.


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

Delete

Cody
SILVER Member since Sep 2003

Cody

That guy from Reno
Location: Reno, Nevada USA

Total posts: 556
Posted:Written by:
However, there should be some minimum age, like said before you are still growing and the fumes, much like drugs are bound to have SOME sort of negative effect on growth and development.



Good point, but that happens anyway. I have an identical twin brother and I'm 1.5" shorter than he is. Want to know why? The sports I did as a child. (gymnastics broken back thing again)

Even if there not spinnnig fire,children might be exposed to it by being arround it, i.e. mom and dad do it.

This isn't the same as drinking alcohol/drugs/smoking affecting development.

When things are done right, there is little problem. If things are done wrong there is a whole other issue other than fire called neglegance and abuse. I feel most educated people practice fire spinning done right. smile


Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada

Delete

KaelGotRice
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA

Total posts: 1584
Posted:Yes, I'll leave it to the educated adults to decide.

<- not really educated or an adult wink

Speaking as a "kid" (I'm technically an adult, 18 years old but I don't feel grown up) I don't think all people my age or younger should be spinning fire. In fact, I have doubts as to whether I should be as well.


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

Delete

quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:re: anna-pannana's 'NYC, I don't think you can compare fire spinning to sex, drugs, or russian roulette! Fire spinning involves skill . . .'

Sex, of course, being just a matter of fumbling about in the dark, hoping that you get lucky . . .


ture na sig

Delete

NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Anna-pananna

NYC, I don't think you can compare fire spinning to sex, drugs, or russian roulette!



I never did. That's why I used the word "Or". "Or" means that they're different. That's the whole point of "Or". Mutual exclusivity. It's why "Or" was invented.

I have no trouble telling the difference between having sex, doing drugs, or spinning fire.

Sometimes the sentences I have to write on this site make me giggle.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

munkypunks
GOLD Member since Jan 2005

munkypunks

enthusiast, but not enthusiastic
Location: Los Angeles, California

Total posts: 367
Posted:Written by: NYC

Written by: Anna-pananna

I have no trouble telling the difference between having sex, doing drugs, or spinning fire.

Sometimes the sentences I have to write on this site make me giggle.



Yeah, me too. rolleyes Lucky thing you can tell the difference. Confusion there could be very dangerous - especially for Molly.


You can't fall off the floor, but sometimes you need a chair to reach the cookie jar.

Delete

Anna-pananna


Anna-pananna

Thinking...
Location: Oxford

Total posts: 179
Posted:I never said you can't tell the difference, and I never acused you of saying they're all the same. I said you can't compare them because neither sex, drugs, nor russian roulette are analogous to fire spinning, in this instance.

Practice as if your hair was on fire...

Delete

ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide

Total posts: 2474
Posted:anna your missing the point

skill or not their is risk in all the things listed which means theres danger which means someone COULD get hurt. just because doing any of the listed events hasnt caused you to get hurt yet doesnt mean that doing it is safe


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

Delete

Nadishome


Nadishome

Living life to the full!
Location: Rural South

Total posts: 177
Posted:K seriously! Aint a clue why we are even discussing this! Children should be treated as individuals! I hate it when people put them into a band and judge them as a whole! Each has different abilities and can perform at differnt levels. I believe its upto thier parent or guardian to discuss the matter with the child and aslong as they are capable and sensible that should be the end of the matter.

Life is short!
So lets leave a mark,
for people to remember!

Delete

KaelGotRice
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA

Total posts: 1584
Posted:Oh sure! children are individuals!

I know! Why don't we let some of the children work in coal mines again because the big ones can handle it! And they need the money!

...

Capable, sensible, then there's logical. How many times should it be stated that adverse side effect of the fumes probably aren't the best for children? Children are still GROWING physically and psychologically. Ask yourself if that is really wise?


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

Delete

NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Nadishome

Children should be treated as individuals! I hate it when people put them into a band and judge them as a whole.



I agree. If a 6 year old wants to fly a plane by himself, I say let him. And if he crashes it and kills a bunch of folks, then no more flying planes again for at least 6 months.

ubbloco

(Well said Kael, btw)


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

Cody
SILVER Member since Sep 2003

Cody

That guy from Reno
Location: Reno, Nevada USA

Total posts: 556
Posted:Written by:
How many times should it be stated that adverse side effect of the fumes probably aren't the best for children? Children are still GROWING physically and psychologically. Ask yourself if that is really wise?




You keep mentioning it and it's still bull. Proove it or state something close to the facts showing that it's a real problem.

Unless your freebasing the fuel can is this really a tangible concern?

That's it kids, no more campfires at boyscouts.


Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada

Delete

polythene


veteran
Location: London/ Surrey

Total posts: 1359
Posted:*Not arguing for or against children spinning fire right now*

Bull? Every MSDS I've ever read suggests otherwise, and that's based on adult, fully grown/ developed bodies. I'd be interested in why something that's known to be harmful to health for adults would be ok for children?


The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.

Delete

drakematrix
SILVER Member since Oct 2004

drakematrix

Maker of the Cheesecake
Location: Akron, OH

Total posts: 174
Posted:I think that Kael and NYC are severely over-exaggerating what has been said about children being individuals.

Human beings are not machines, they do not all click along at a measured pace set by gears and belts. we all mature at different rates, both physically and mentally. There should be allowances for those differences. I was generally emotionally and intellectually mature for my age all through school. There is a reason why I was placed in advanced classes. There was also a reason why my senior year of high school I was also a college student.

Especially when it comes to emotional and intellectual maturity, those rates are highly culture-bound. In the united states, children are far less mature than children of other cultures. And it takes them longer to mature now than it did a couple hundred years ago. Heck, it wasn't so long ago that it was perfectly normal for 14 year old to be married

Do I think that a 10-year old should be spinning fire? Probably not. But I also recognize that there may be the rare exception to that rule. The simple fact is that broad generalizations do not adequately address individual differences. That doesn't mean that 5 year olds should be working in mines. you are taking a simple, logical argument and stretching to an absurd level.


What exactly do I have to light on fire to get you to notice me?

Delete

Page: 12345...7

Similar Topics

Using the keywords [children spin] we found the following similar topics.
1. Forums > atomic spin [27 replies]
2. Learn > Dragon Staff > Mr Moustachios Monks Spade QR Guide > Staff Strike - Downward Spade with Wall Spin - QR *help/resource downward with the spade  add a spin  go back the other way  you ll...
3. Learn > Fire Fans > Throws > Vertical Spin Throws *help/resource throwing strengths to allow it to spin once before it descends back into...
4. Forums > Foil & Extension(advanced flower) [19 replies]
5. Learn > Hoop > Mini hoop > palm spin *help/resource

     Show more..