Forums > Social Discussion > alcohol/tobacco vs. dope/mushrooms
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Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
This post is in connection with the often quoted view that legal drugs (alcohol/tobacco) cause more problems than many illegal ones (marijuana, 'e', mushrooms).
It is true that the legal drugs (alcohol and tobacco) are responsible for far more suffering tham marijuana, 'e' and mushrooms.
Alcohol fuels the friday/saturday night casuality 'carnage'/street violence that is rife in the UK; tobacco is responsible for 4,000,000 smoking related deaths per year worldwide (that's more than all other drugs put together.
And this fact is often brought up by those who are against legislation for marijuana, 'e', mushrooms etc.
-----------------------
Just to put a different slant on this; is it not possible that a contributing factor to the devastation caused by the legal drugs, is precisely the fact that they are legal, and thus easily obtainable and usable in public?
If so, is that not good reason to not legalise the other drugs?
(I am aware that, for the past couple of years, potent mushrooms have been legally available in the UK/USA and sold openly, so they are technically legal; I would still differentiate between that and the legality of tobacco/alcohol because it hasn't been particularly well known by the general public, and it is currentlybeing seen as more of a 'loophole' in the law).
I anticipate that 'hypocrisy' will be brought into this ie why should alcohol/tobacco be legal and not marijuana- the main thing I'd ask people to reflect on with this is that alcohol/tobacco have been legal so long that-
1. they are (sadly IMO) accepted, seen as the norm, and prohibiting them fully would seem to be impractical
2. if they were freshly discovered today, they would be banned
3. in the case of tobacco, efforts are being made to gradually scale down use, by, for example, it being made illegal in increasing numbers of countries, to use it in public places
Obviously this is a wide ranging topic with lots of avenues for discussion; I would appreciate it if people do give their opinion on the point raised above (that the fact that alcohol/tobacco are legal, is one of the factors in their destructiveness).
This post is in connection with the often quoted view that legal drugs (alcohol/tobacco) cause more problems than many illegal ones (marijuana, 'e', mushrooms).
It is true that the legal drugs (alcohol and tobacco) are responsible for far more suffering tham marijuana, 'e' and mushrooms.
Alcohol fuels the friday/saturday night casuality 'carnage'/street violence that is rife in the UK; tobacco is responsible for 4,000,000 smoking related deaths per year worldwide (that's more than all other drugs put together.
And this fact is often brought up by those who are against legislation for marijuana, 'e', mushrooms etc.
-----------------------
Just to put a different slant on this; is it not possible that a contributing factor to the devastation caused by the legal drugs, is precisely the fact that they are legal, and thus easily obtainable and usable in public?
If so, is that not good reason to not legalise the other drugs?
(I am aware that, for the past couple of years, potent mushrooms have been legally available in the UK/USA and sold openly, so they are technically legal; I would still differentiate between that and the legality of tobacco/alcohol because it hasn't been particularly well known by the general public, and it is currentlybeing seen as more of a 'loophole' in the law).
I anticipate that 'hypocrisy' will be brought into this ie why should alcohol/tobacco be legal and not marijuana- the main thing I'd ask people to reflect on with this is that alcohol/tobacco have been legal so long that-
1. they are (sadly IMO) accepted, seen as the norm, and prohibiting them fully would seem to be impractical
2. if they were freshly discovered today, they would be banned
3. in the case of tobacco, efforts are being made to gradually scale down use, by, for example, it being made illegal in increasing numbers of countries, to use it in public places
Obviously this is a wide ranging topic with lots of avenues for discussion; I would appreciate it if people do give their opinion on the point raised above (that the fact that alcohol/tobacco are legal, is one of the factors in their destructiveness).
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
The original drunk/stoned/vegetarian shapeshifter
209 posts
Location: Blackhill, Australia
209 posts
Location: Blackhill, Australia
Posted:
the government puts lots of tax on alcohol and tobacco so they make lots of money, but they couldnt do that with marijuana so they dont want it to be legal, allways about the money
the government puts lots of tax on alcohol and tobacco so they make lots of money, but they couldnt do that with marijuana so they dont want it to be legal, allways about the money
Lycan:are you a citrus fruit?
Orange:no
Lycan:dam, i wanted to make citrus fruit pie.
*Lycan walks off completely unaware he has once again been outwitted by the intellectual orange*
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I'm aware of the money aspects, and I'm sure it is a factor.
However, i'm equally sure it's not the only factor; many of the people who desire drug laws do so for sincere reasons (one of which may be the point I raise above ie that the destructivenss of legal drugs is, in part, due to be being legal).
Incidently, what makes you think the govt couldn't raise taxes on marijuana if they legalised it?
I'm aware of the money aspects, and I'm sure it is a factor.
However, i'm equally sure it's not the only factor; many of the people who desire drug laws do so for sincere reasons (one of which may be the point I raise above ie that the destructivenss of legal drugs is, in part, due to be being legal).
Incidently, what makes you think the govt couldn't raise taxes on marijuana if they legalised it?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
The original drunk/stoned/vegetarian shapeshifter
209 posts
Location: Blackhill, Australia
209 posts
Location: Blackhill, Australia
Posted:
because it is fairly difficult to manufacture alcohol & tobacco at home because you can get fungus on the tobacco which kills you & it takes time and effort to get the fermentation process down and even longer to get something that tastes good.
whereas marijuana can be grown fairly easily
because it is fairly difficult to manufacture alcohol & tobacco at home because you can get fungus on the tobacco which kills you & it takes time and effort to get the fermentation process down and even longer to get something that tastes good.
whereas marijuana can be grown fairly easily
Lycan:are you a citrus fruit?
Orange:no
Lycan:dam, i wanted to make citrus fruit pie.
*Lycan walks off completely unaware he has once again been outwitted by the intellectual orange*
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
No, I don't think so.
The governent could simply make marijuana legal, but clamp down heavily on home growers with super-strict penalties/jail sentences, and also make it very difficult to buy the necessary lamps necessary to grow the plants.
Alcohol isn't that difficult to produce, look at how many stills were in use during prohibition.
As for tobacco, despite being a 100% ex-smoker who despises the stuff, I do still possess a book that tells you how to grow the stuff; it's not that difficult.
No, I don't think so.
The governent could simply make marijuana legal, but clamp down heavily on home growers with super-strict penalties/jail sentences, and also make it very difficult to buy the necessary lamps necessary to grow the plants.
Alcohol isn't that difficult to produce, look at how many stills were in use during prohibition.
As for tobacco, despite being a 100% ex-smoker who despises the stuff, I do still possess a book that tells you how to grow the stuff; it's not that difficult.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Dave, I think it’s the hypocracy and pontification that people object to.
The end of ‘health terrorism’? Investigating innovative approaches to substance abuse prevention pdf
taxable vs. not-taxable
Dave, I think it’s the hypocracy and pontification that people object to.
The end of ‘health terrorism’? Investigating innovative approaches to substance abuse prevention pdf
taxable vs. not-taxable
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I gave my views on the hypocrisy in the first post, and I'm fully aware that hypocrisy is what many have in mind.
Your link sounds interesting; however, I can't view PDF files,so I don't know what it said.
I gave my views on the hypocrisy in the first post, and I'm fully aware that hypocrisy is what many have in mind.
Written by: onewheeldave
I anticipate that 'hypocrisy' will be brought into this ie why should alcohol/tobacco be legal and not marijuana- the main thing I'd ask people to reflect on with this is that alcohol/tobacco have been legal so long that-
1. they are (sadly IMO) accepted, seen as the norm, and prohibiting them fully would seem to be impractical
2. if they were freshly discovered today, they would be banned
3. in the case of tobacco, efforts are being made to gradually scale down use, by, for example, it being made illegal in increasing numbers of countries, to use it in public places
Your link sounds interesting; however, I can't view PDF files,so I don't know what it said.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
I’ll just add that marijuana laws vary, what I object to is that in my state possession is a “criminal” offence. This is way over the top.
I am just trying to point out that there are alternatives, and harm minimisation is part of that:
Pdf file extracts:
About the Social Norms approach:
The foundational research was undertaken in the late 1980s by social scientists Perkins and Berkowitz, who discovered widespread misperception of alcohol-related attitudes and behaviours among college students at Hobart and William Smith Colleges in upstate New York.
Beck and Trieman’s finding that “teens' drinking behaviors are not driven so much by a need for peer approval or to be accepted by a group, but rather by what is perceived of asnormal behavior among one's close friends”25,19.
“The strategy of the social norms approach, put simply, is to communicate the truth about peer norms in terms of what the majority of students actually think and do, all on the basis of credible data drawn from the student population that is the target” 24.
The principle of harm-minimisation/reduction provided the basis for Australia’s National Campaign Against Drug Abuse (launched in 1985) as well as its successor, the National Drug Strategy22.
Critics of harm minimisation have suggested that it condones illicit drug use and other risky behaviours because it does not promote non-use, or even necessarily aim for a reduction in use. However, as Plant and his colleagues explain, harm minimisation is ‘neutral on the virtue or shame attached to such behaviours’43 and although it does not seek to minimise alcohol intake per se, it is by no means incompatible with abstentionist aims.
There are good indications that SN interventions will fit comfortably within our harm minimisation policy framework. Unlike health promotion approaches that seek to scare people off behaviours because they are risky (or shame people out of them because they are ‘bad’), SN approaches takes a neutral stance – they do not present alcohol consumption as either evil or virtuous. Importantly, there is an assumption that manyyoung people do and will continue to consume alcohol - the challenge lies in finding evidence-based ways to diminish the likelihood of them harming either themselves or others in the process. SN is a promising candidate in this regard
I’ll just add that marijuana laws vary, what I object to is that in my state possession is a “criminal” offence. This is way over the top.
I am just trying to point out that there are alternatives, and harm minimisation is part of that:
Pdf file extracts:
About the Social Norms approach:
The foundational research was undertaken in the late 1980s by social scientists Perkins and Berkowitz, who discovered widespread misperception of alcohol-related attitudes and behaviours among college students at Hobart and William Smith Colleges in upstate New York.
Beck and Trieman’s finding that “teens' drinking behaviors are not driven so much by a need for peer approval or to be accepted by a group, but rather by what is perceived of asnormal behavior among one's close friends”25,19.
“The strategy of the social norms approach, put simply, is to communicate the truth about peer norms in terms of what the majority of students actually think and do, all on the basis of credible data drawn from the student population that is the target” 24.
The principle of harm-minimisation/reduction provided the basis for Australia’s National Campaign Against Drug Abuse (launched in 1985) as well as its successor, the National Drug Strategy22.
Critics of harm minimisation have suggested that it condones illicit drug use and other risky behaviours because it does not promote non-use, or even necessarily aim for a reduction in use. However, as Plant and his colleagues explain, harm minimisation is ‘neutral on the virtue or shame attached to such behaviours’43 and although it does not seek to minimise alcohol intake per se, it is by no means incompatible with abstentionist aims.
There are good indications that SN interventions will fit comfortably within our harm minimisation policy framework. Unlike health promotion approaches that seek to scare people off behaviours because they are risky (or shame people out of them because they are ‘bad’), SN approaches takes a neutral stance – they do not present alcohol consumption as either evil or virtuous. Importantly, there is an assumption that manyyoung people do and will continue to consume alcohol - the challenge lies in finding evidence-based ways to diminish the likelihood of them harming either themselves or others in the process. SN is a promising candidate in this regard
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
The original drunk/stoned/vegetarian shapeshifter
209 posts
Location: Blackhill, Australia
209 posts
Location: Blackhill, Australia
Posted:
they should stop trying to regulate things at the consumer level, and try and stop its production
they should stop trying to regulate things at the consumer level, and try and stop its production
Lycan:are you a citrus fruit?
Orange:no
Lycan:dam, i wanted to make citrus fruit pie.
*Lycan walks off completely unaware he has once again been outwitted by the intellectual orange*
SILVER Member
comfortably numb
2,676 posts
Location: The countryside, Australia
comfortably numb
2,676 posts
Location: The countryside, Australia
Posted:
Very good post Dave. I've never actually thought about this.
I'll never forget my Mother saying to me 'I'd rather you be an alcoholic then a smoker' when she found out I smoke a few years back. In her eyes, smoking does more damage than alcohol. But I'm not so sure.
It really upset me. But it shows people have a variety of different views because of their age, experiences etc.
Yes smoking is horrible for your health, breathing, lungs, teeth, body in general....but alcohol long term also has disadvantages...liver damage, addiction.
If you drink too much. It also has bad short term affects. Dehydration, lack of alertness and control. If you pass out anything can happen. People can steal stuff from you, you can be taken advantage of. People die from culpable driving. People can die of alcohol poisioning...drink spiking. Alcohol is way more dangerous than smoking...if you think short term. At least smoking doesn't affect your ability to control yourself.
Illicit drugs however are kind of outside my area of knowledge. Although I personally think marijuana should not be legalised...and that drugs are bad mmkay.
Very good post Dave. I've never actually thought about this.
I'll never forget my Mother saying to me 'I'd rather you be an alcoholic then a smoker' when she found out I smoke a few years back. In her eyes, smoking does more damage than alcohol. But I'm not so sure.
It really upset me. But it shows people have a variety of different views because of their age, experiences etc.
Yes smoking is horrible for your health, breathing, lungs, teeth, body in general....but alcohol long term also has disadvantages...liver damage, addiction.
If you drink too much. It also has bad short term affects. Dehydration, lack of alertness and control. If you pass out anything can happen. People can steal stuff from you, you can be taken advantage of. People die from culpable driving. People can die of alcohol poisioning...drink spiking. Alcohol is way more dangerous than smoking...if you think short term. At least smoking doesn't affect your ability to control yourself.
Illicit drugs however are kind of outside my area of knowledge. Although I personally think marijuana should not be legalised...and that drugs are bad mmkay.
.All things are beautiful if we take the time to look.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
To be honest Dave, I don’t see it as a competition. Drugs always seem to cause problems one way or another, no matter how the are distributed.
Giving views on hypocrisy and other subjects does not erase them from discussion.
Then why aren’t they banned like the other, they were also legal at one time? The only sensible reason is cash flow, even if it is a bit difficult to tax or ban things that just pop up out of the ground. The mary-jane one was political, and the patents have probably expired on the others.
While it might be easy to grow tobacco, it is difficult to cure and make combustible. Anyhow, the private growing tobacco is banned in my country. I wonder why? Another irony is that my Gov is a lot heavier on “ chop-chop” (black market tobacco) than it is on cannabis. I suspect it’s because they don’t want to miss out on their cut of the revenue.
To be honest Dave, I don’t see it as a competition. Drugs always seem to cause problems one way or another, no matter how the are distributed.
Giving views on hypocrisy and other subjects does not erase them from discussion.
Written by:
Just to put a different slant on this; is it not possible that a contributing factor to the devastation caused by the legal drugs, is precisely the fact that they are legal, and thus easily obtainable and usable in public?
Then why aren’t they banned like the other, they were also legal at one time? The only sensible reason is cash flow, even if it is a bit difficult to tax or ban things that just pop up out of the ground. The mary-jane one was political, and the patents have probably expired on the others.
While it might be easy to grow tobacco, it is difficult to cure and make combustible. Anyhow, the private growing tobacco is banned in my country. I wonder why? Another irony is that my Gov is a lot heavier on “ chop-chop” (black market tobacco) than it is on cannabis. I suspect it’s because they don’t want to miss out on their cut of the revenue.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
I think one point about the hypocrisy is that while most politicians have been in contact with alcohol and tobacco and think they can master them and don't want to be forbidden to use them, most of them don't have any experience with mushrooms and probably marijuana either, so they judge that by the bad stories they've heard, whereas they can neglect the millions of alcoholics and lots of lung cancer deaths as long as they aren't affected personally.
Also, legalising drugs WILL be unpopular with a large part of the population, especially the older people, who form a huge and very important group of voters. It is said in Germany that whichever government would legalise drugs would very probably lose the next election.
I think one point about the hypocrisy is that while most politicians have been in contact with alcohol and tobacco and think they can master them and don't want to be forbidden to use them, most of them don't have any experience with mushrooms and probably marijuana either, so they judge that by the bad stories they've heard, whereas they can neglect the millions of alcoholics and lots of lung cancer deaths as long as they aren't affected personally.
Also, legalising drugs WILL be unpopular with a large part of the population, especially the older people, who form a huge and very important group of voters. It is said in Germany that whichever government would legalise drugs would very probably lose the next election.
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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Owner of Dragosani's left half
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Good points Birgit,
One problem in Australia is that many people equate the decriminalising of some drugs as legalising drugs and supporting their use. Ok, this is a bit simplistic, but I don’t think it helps society if some kid gets busted for pot, and has a “criminal record” for the rest of their lives.
If people think this distinction is trivial or not important then the a good example is in how the ruling Liberal party in Australia neutralised the Green Party at the last election. John Howard PM ran an election advertising campaign telling voters that the Green Party was promoting drug use, when in reality they were suggesting it was time for decriminalisation and a rethink of ineffective paradigms.
Good points Birgit,
One problem in Australia is that many people equate the decriminalising of some drugs as legalising drugs and supporting their use. Ok, this is a bit simplistic, but I don’t think it helps society if some kid gets busted for pot, and has a “criminal record” for the rest of their lives.
If people think this distinction is trivial or not important then the a good example is in how the ruling Liberal party in Australia neutralised the Green Party at the last election. John Howard PM ran an election advertising campaign telling voters that the Green Party was promoting drug use, when in reality they were suggesting it was time for decriminalisation and a rethink of ineffective paradigms.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
The approach sounds valid; while for some it wil fail, I'm sure that for others it will succeed.
Like I've said many times before, there's scope, and need for multiple approaches to the problem- some of those approaches will be education based, others will be legislation based.
Written by: Stone
There are good indications that SN interventions will fit comfortably within our harm minimisation policy framework. Unlike health promotion approaches that seek to scare people off behaviours because they are risky (or shame people out of them because they are ‘bad’), SN approaches takes a neutral stance – they do not present alcohol consumption as either evil or virtuous. Importantly, there is an assumption that manyyoung people do and will continue to consume alcohol - the challenge lies in finding evidence-based ways to diminish the likelihood of them harming either themselves or others in the process. SN is a promising candidate in this regard
The approach sounds valid; while for some it wil fail, I'm sure that for others it will succeed.
Like I've said many times before, there's scope, and need for multiple approaches to the problem- some of those approaches will be education based, others will be legislation based.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Hope no one's thinking I'm talking about a competition here; maybe the title of the thread suggests that, but I hope that my original post makes it very clear that I'm in no way suggesting that some drugs are 'better' than others.
Written by: roarfire
Yes smoking is horrible for your health, breathing, lungs, teeth, body in general....but alcohol long term also has disadvantages...liver damage, addiction.
Written by: Stone
To be honest Dave, I don’t see it as a competition. Drugs always seem to cause problems one way or another, no matter how the are distributed.
Hope no one's thinking I'm talking about a competition here; maybe the title of the thread suggests that, but I hope that my original post makes it very clear that I'm in no way suggesting that some drugs are 'better' than others.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Interesting. As I've said before I do think that use of alcohol, cigarettes and many of the illegal drugs is fueled by what is perceived as 'normal'.
For example,in our culture, regular, moderate alcohol use is seen as part of a normal life, and occasional 'over-use' (getting wrecked on birthdays etc) is also seen as normal. To the extent that teenagers who don't use alcohol could well be seen as 'abnormal'. (and this is where 'perceived as normal' slips subtly into full on 'peer pressure', because, for most teens, being perceived as 'abnormal' is pretty stressful.
In the UK, despite marijuana being illegal; in the 'under-class' housing estate culture, it is as much a part of life as alcohol; we're getting a generation where dope use isn't restricted mainly to 'hippy's/free-thinkers'- it's become the 'norm'.
So, if it's legalised, it will very likely become very much like alcohol is at present- a substance which the youth of all social classes will tend to use habitually, not because of any objective judgement as to its benefits for them, but becasue it is seen as 'the norm', with the attendent social/peer pressure to use the stuff.
Written by: Stone
Pdf file extracts:
About the Social Norms approach:
The foundational research was undertaken in the late 1980s by social scientists Perkins and Berkowitz, who discovered widespread misperception of alcohol-related attitudes and behaviours among college students at Hobart and William Smith Colleges in upstate New York.
Beck and Trieman’s finding that “teens' drinking behaviors are not driven so much by a need for peer approval or to be accepted by a group, but rather by what is perceived of as normal behavior among one's close friends”25,19.
Interesting. As I've said before I do think that use of alcohol, cigarettes and many of the illegal drugs is fueled by what is perceived as 'normal'.
For example,in our culture, regular, moderate alcohol use is seen as part of a normal life, and occasional 'over-use' (getting wrecked on birthdays etc) is also seen as normal. To the extent that teenagers who don't use alcohol could well be seen as 'abnormal'. (and this is where 'perceived as normal' slips subtly into full on 'peer pressure', because, for most teens, being perceived as 'abnormal' is pretty stressful.
In the UK, despite marijuana being illegal; in the 'under-class' housing estate culture, it is as much a part of life as alcohol; we're getting a generation where dope use isn't restricted mainly to 'hippy's/free-thinkers'- it's become the 'norm'.
So, if it's legalised, it will very likely become very much like alcohol is at present- a substance which the youth of all social classes will tend to use habitually, not because of any objective judgement as to its benefits for them, but becasue it is seen as 'the norm', with the attendent social/peer pressure to use the stuff.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
to investigate this theory further we should at least look at the countries that have attempted it.
look towards holland and switzerland for two approaches.
i agree with your points 1, 2 and 3 but i'm not sure i agree that the 'destrcutiveness' of tobacco and alcohol are due to their legality.
i think the addictiveness of these substances, coupled with the fact that one of them can be proved to increase violent tendancies in some individuals is more to blame.
however, i'm not sure i even understand what you mean by "a contributing factor to the devastation caused by the legal drugs".
if you mean that the (very different) problems caused by alcohol and tobacco are more widespread because they are the only legal drugs available then i would tend to agree.
but the counter argument is that given a wider choice of legal drugs, would alcohol and tobacco use decline and hence, the problem associated with them fall also (replaced with other problems but very likely, problems that affect society at large in a much smaller way)?
cole. x
to investigate this theory further we should at least look at the countries that have attempted it.
look towards holland and switzerland for two approaches.
i agree with your points 1, 2 and 3 but i'm not sure i agree that the 'destrcutiveness' of tobacco and alcohol are due to their legality.
i think the addictiveness of these substances, coupled with the fact that one of them can be proved to increase violent tendancies in some individuals is more to blame.
however, i'm not sure i even understand what you mean by "a contributing factor to the devastation caused by the legal drugs".
if you mean that the (very different) problems caused by alcohol and tobacco are more widespread because they are the only legal drugs available then i would tend to agree.
but the counter argument is that given a wider choice of legal drugs, would alcohol and tobacco use decline and hence, the problem associated with them fall also (replaced with other problems but very likely, problems that affect society at large in a much smaller way)?
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Of course, that goes without saying. I was simply pointing out that my initial post addressed the point you were addressing; I felt that I couldn't say anything new that would answer you better than what I'd said in the inital post, and, concerned that you may not have read it, was directing your attention to it.
Again, all I can say is what I said before-
Whilst acknowledging that money is undoubtedly a factor as well; the fact remians that once something has become firmly entrenched as socially normal 'banning' is not as straightforward or practical.
Written by: Stone
Giving views on hypocrisy and other subjects does not erase them from discussion.
Of course, that goes without saying. I was simply pointing out that my initial post addressed the point you were addressing; I felt that I couldn't say anything new that would answer you better than what I'd said in the inital post, and, concerned that you may not have read it, was directing your attention to it.
Written by: StoneWritten by: onewheeldave
Just to put a different slant on this; is it not possible that a contributing factor to the devastation caused by the legal drugs, is precisely the fact that they are legal, and thus easily obtainable and usable in public
Then why aren’t they banned like the other, they were also legal at one time?
Again, all I can say is what I said before-
Written by: onewheeldave
1. they are (sadly IMO) accepted, seen as the norm, and prohibiting them fully would seem to be impractical
2. if they were freshly discovered today, they would be banned
3. in the case of tobacco, efforts are being made to gradually scale down use, by, for example, it being made illegal in increasing numbers of countries, to use it in public places
Whilst acknowledging that money is undoubtedly a factor as well; the fact remians that once something has become firmly entrenched as socially normal 'banning' is not as straightforward or practical.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
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Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
the history of the prohibition of weed is a long and wondering tale...... it's a lot more messed up than some people realise.
aaages ago (not sure of the year, sorry) when we had colonies, a group of people were sent to india to research the effects of cannabis and report back to britain. at the same time in england some financial dudes were working out that hemp in this country could destroy a lot of businesses - it's a pretty versatile substance, even just for fabric stuff like clothes and rope. but it's also medicinal and you can make plastics out of it....the list goes on.
aaaaanyway.. before the little indian focus group could report back they had already banned it in england. without even hearing the evidence!
similarly in america they managed to get it banned by running lots of stories about marijuana the killer drug that turned people in to murdering psychopaths and stuff. there was a huge public outcry and it got banned. only afterwards did the people realise that marijuana was just another name for cannabis which they had been using for years without going crazy. but by then i t was too late
now i know there are two sides to every story and stuff, but it sounds iffy to me. poor little cannabis plant never got a chance.....
the history of the prohibition of weed is a long and wondering tale...... it's a lot more messed up than some people realise.
aaages ago (not sure of the year, sorry) when we had colonies, a group of people were sent to india to research the effects of cannabis and report back to britain. at the same time in england some financial dudes were working out that hemp in this country could destroy a lot of businesses - it's a pretty versatile substance, even just for fabric stuff like clothes and rope. but it's also medicinal and you can make plastics out of it....the list goes on.
aaaaanyway.. before the little indian focus group could report back they had already banned it in england. without even hearing the evidence!
similarly in america they managed to get it banned by running lots of stories about marijuana the killer drug that turned people in to murdering psychopaths and stuff. there was a huge public outcry and it got banned. only afterwards did the people realise that marijuana was just another name for cannabis which they had been using for years without going crazy. but by then i t was too late
now i know there are two sides to every story and stuff, but it sounds iffy to me. poor little cannabis plant never got a chance.....
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Cheers Cole; very valid and pertinent point, and one that had not occured to me.
My feelings are that having more legal options will lead to people who currently abuse/overuse alcohol/tobacco to simply continue to do so whilst also overusing/abusing marijuana etc.
But I'll ponder on it some more.
Written by: coleman
but the counter argument is that given a wider choice of legal drugs, would alcohol and tobacco use decline and hence, the problem associated with them fall also (replaced with other problems but very likely, problems that affect society at large in a much smaller way)?
Cheers Cole; very valid and pertinent point, and one that had not occured to me.
My feelings are that having more legal options will lead to people who currently abuse/overuse alcohol/tobacco to simply continue to do so whilst also overusing/abusing marijuana etc.
But I'll ponder on it some more.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
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7,330 posts
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big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
can you define 'the problem' more clearly please dave?
it seems in this context (and taking into account the arguments presented in this and other threads), that you envisage the problem as being 'the human desire to use drugs in a recreational manner'.
if i am wrong about what you are getting at, please correct me - the reason i got that impression was your repeated opinion that 'the problem' can be overcome with carefully chosen legislation and education.
i think the reason i have argued against so many of your assertions in the past is that i see 'the problem' at large as being the restrictions placed by elected governments on individuals' personal liberties and you see the problem at large as being the flaws or weaknesses in the human condition that encourage us to experient with and enjoy recrational drug use.
am i anywhere close here?
cole. x
Written by: onewheeldave
Like I've said many times before, there's scope, and need for multiple approaches to the problem- some of those approaches will be education based, others will be legislation based.
can you define 'the problem' more clearly please dave?
it seems in this context (and taking into account the arguments presented in this and other threads), that you envisage the problem as being 'the human desire to use drugs in a recreational manner'.
if i am wrong about what you are getting at, please correct me - the reason i got that impression was your repeated opinion that 'the problem' can be overcome with carefully chosen legislation and education.
i think the reason i have argued against so many of your assertions in the past is that i see 'the problem' at large as being the restrictions placed by elected governments on individuals' personal liberties and you see the problem at large as being the flaws or weaknesses in the human condition that encourage us to experient with and enjoy recrational drug use.
am i anywhere close here?
cole. x
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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
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Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
i think the problem is not the need to experiment, but the dependancy that it sometimes leads to.
at least when things are legal there is support for those people who take it too far.
And as far as i have seen, banning people from taking some drugs doesn't stop them getting addicted or messing their lives up.
i think the problem is not the need to experiment, but the dependancy that it sometimes leads to.
at least when things are legal there is support for those people who take it too far.
And as far as i have seen, banning people from taking some drugs doesn't stop them getting addicted or messing their lives up.
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Sure.
The 'problem' is, IMO, the current drug situation in our culture.
Most obviously that would be the casualties such as-
1. alcoholics
2. coke/heroin addicts
3. those damaged by them (victims of drunk drivers, victims of drink/drug induced violence etc)
4. the 4,000,000 who die annually from smoking related diseases
Less obvious are-
1. people starting their smoking career who are under the impression that it's a choice, that they can easily stop at any time
2. those who are raped, or who engage in sexual activity that, if they were sober, would not happen, but, because they are on a socially normal alcohol binge (eg birthday celebration) end up doing something they normally wouldn't
ie indirectly, it contributes to the vast numbers of unwanted pregnancies and spread of STD's
3. the number of people who either become mentally ill, or whose pre-disposition to mental illness is excarbated, by use of marijuana and/or class 'A' hallicinogenics
It's a sobering thought to realise that the majority of harm in our society, has at it's roots, drug use (both legal and illegal).
Call me excessively clear-minded or unrealistic, but it blows me away that so much of our cultures ills is actually unnecessary.
Written by: coleman
can you define 'the problem' more clearly please dave?
Sure.
The 'problem' is, IMO, the current drug situation in our culture.
Most obviously that would be the casualties such as-
1. alcoholics
2. coke/heroin addicts
3. those damaged by them (victims of drunk drivers, victims of drink/drug induced violence etc)
4. the 4,000,000 who die annually from smoking related diseases
Less obvious are-
1. people starting their smoking career who are under the impression that it's a choice, that they can easily stop at any time
2. those who are raped, or who engage in sexual activity that, if they were sober, would not happen, but, because they are on a socially normal alcohol binge (eg birthday celebration) end up doing something they normally wouldn't
ie indirectly, it contributes to the vast numbers of unwanted pregnancies and spread of STD's
3. the number of people who either become mentally ill, or whose pre-disposition to mental illness is excarbated, by use of marijuana and/or class 'A' hallicinogenics
It's a sobering thought to realise that the majority of harm in our society, has at it's roots, drug use (both legal and illegal).
Call me excessively clear-minded or unrealistic, but it blows me away that so much of our cultures ills is actually unnecessary.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Then we are indeed talking about different problems.
Out of interest, given that it's surely possible for there to be more than one 'problem' in the world
do you acknowledge that at least some of 1-4 above do constitute a (allbeit different to your) problem?
Written by: coleman
the reason i have argued against so many of your assertions in the past is that i see 'the problem' at large as being the restrictions placed by elected governments on individuals' personal liberties and you see the problem at large as being the flaws or weaknesses in the human condition that encourage us to experient with and enjoy recrational drug use.
cole. x
Then we are indeed talking about different problems.
Out of interest, given that it's surely possible for there to be more than one 'problem' in the world
do you acknowledge that at least some of 1-4 above do constitute a (allbeit different to your) problem? "You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I wouldn't say that it can be overcome; I would say that it can be lessened considerably.
Written by: coleman
the reason i got that impression was your repeated opinion that 'the problem' can be overcome with carefully chosen legislation and education.
I wouldn't say that it can be overcome; I would say that it can be lessened considerably.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Some people cannot experiment- due to predispositions or their life situation, they cannot 'sample' a drug for a given length of time and then retain the choice to cease using it.
This is most obvious with cigarettes- pretty much everyone starts out under the impression that they can cut-and-run at any time; 50 years later they've been on 30 a day for most of their life.
There's support for heroin users and other illegal drugs as well.
Bans don't stop everyone from getting addicted; but they do stop some.
Written by: Tao Star
i think the problem is not the need to experiment, but the dependancy that it sometimes leads to.
Some people cannot experiment- due to predispositions or their life situation, they cannot 'sample' a drug for a given length of time and then retain the choice to cease using it.
This is most obvious with cigarettes- pretty much everyone starts out under the impression that they can cut-and-run at any time; 50 years later they've been on 30 a day for most of their life.
Written by: Tao Star
at least when things are legal there is support for those people who take it too far.
And as far as i have seen, banning people from taking some drugs doesn't stop them getting addicted or messing their lives up.
There's support for heroin users and other illegal drugs as well.
Bans don't stop everyone from getting addicted; but they do stop some.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
oh... one more "hypocrisy" point I'd like to add:
In my school marijuana was usually referred to as the "starting drug", meaning that although not everyone doing it will have considerable problems or go on to harder drugs, but that most people who do harder drugs will have started on marijuana or other "soft" drugs, and maybe met hard drug users through them.
However, most people actually smoke cigarettes before they smoke marijuana; non-smokers (in my experience at least) are much less tempted by a joint, and often feel bad after the first try because of inhaling smoke really deeply and getting a mix of nicotine and thc in their system. Also, lots of people first try marijuana at a party after they've been drinking, which goes with Dave's post about people doing things they maybe wouldn't do without the alcohol.
So it does seem a bit random to say the chain of doing drugs starts with marijuana.
oh... one more "hypocrisy" point I'd like to add:
In my school marijuana was usually referred to as the "starting drug", meaning that although not everyone doing it will have considerable problems or go on to harder drugs, but that most people who do harder drugs will have started on marijuana or other "soft" drugs, and maybe met hard drug users through them.
However, most people actually smoke cigarettes before they smoke marijuana; non-smokers (in my experience at least) are much less tempted by a joint, and often feel bad after the first try because of inhaling smoke really deeply and getting a mix of nicotine and thc in their system. Also, lots of people first try marijuana at a party after they've been drinking, which goes with Dave's post about people doing things they maybe wouldn't do without the alcohol.
So it does seem a bit random to say the chain of doing drugs starts with marijuana.
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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SILVER Member
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7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
thank-you dave - i had indeed misunderstood your overall viewpoint but your first reply there cleared it up perfectly:
'the problem' here is drug abuse, irresponsible behaviour under the influence of drugs and addiction.
i do not personally believe that the majority of harm in our society has drugs at its roots.
but i could hardly disagree that drugs do make a massive contribution to said harm and worryingly, the legal ones (in this country) seem to cause the most harm of all (possibly this is due to the fact that the harm caused by illegal drugs is often not directly linked to them after the fact, but that is why i specifically use the term 'seem to cause').
i believe this is largely due to the fact that the two legal recreational drugs available here are extremely harmful and are addictive substances (one highly so).
i still believe a sensible decrimilisation programme such as those pioneered by portugal or switzerland (very likely coupled with a carefully thought out education programme) is the best way forward for cannabis.
the decrimilisation of harder, addiction-forming drugs such as crack or h would be much harder to handle correctly, but i guess this comes down to whether or not you believe that a society that is given full power over their peronal liberties is more or less likely to spiral into an abuse of those liberties than one that is forced to persue them illegally.
cheers again dave.
cole. x
thank-you dave - i had indeed misunderstood your overall viewpoint but your first reply there cleared it up perfectly:
'the problem' here is drug abuse, irresponsible behaviour under the influence of drugs and addiction.
i do not personally believe that the majority of harm in our society has drugs at its roots.
but i could hardly disagree that drugs do make a massive contribution to said harm and worryingly, the legal ones (in this country) seem to cause the most harm of all (possibly this is due to the fact that the harm caused by illegal drugs is often not directly linked to them after the fact, but that is why i specifically use the term 'seem to cause').
i believe this is largely due to the fact that the two legal recreational drugs available here are extremely harmful and are addictive substances (one highly so).
i still believe a sensible decrimilisation programme such as those pioneered by portugal or switzerland (very likely coupled with a carefully thought out education programme) is the best way forward for cannabis.
the decrimilisation of harder, addiction-forming drugs such as crack or h would be much harder to handle correctly, but i guess this comes down to whether or not you believe that a society that is given full power over their peronal liberties is more or less likely to spiral into an abuse of those liberties than one that is forced to persue them illegally.
cheers again dave.
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I'm glad you brought that one up.
I've never been that impressed by the 'marijuana leading on the hard drugs' argument.
But I do feel that marijuana use is helping to prolong the incidence of tobacco addiction; in that there's plenty of people who would have been unlikely to smoke cigarettes, who get addicted by smoking spliffs with tobacco in.
I'm glad you brought that one up.
I've never been that impressed by the 'marijuana leading on the hard drugs' argument.
But I do feel that marijuana use is helping to prolong the incidence of tobacco addiction; in that there's plenty of people who would have been unlikely to smoke cigarettes, who get addicted by smoking spliffs with tobacco in.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
lovable smart-ass
785 posts
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria
785 posts
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria
Posted:
dave- why do you care that much?
honestly i wont shed a tear for that heroin junkie who has done nothing productive in his life, refused all help with the words "Im fiiiiine", is messing up public spaces with his vomit and piss.
i think that striving for a society with no addictions is utopian.
there will always be people who are going for the easy solution.
dave- why do you care that much?
honestly i wont shed a tear for that heroin junkie who has done nothing productive in his life, refused all help with the words "Im fiiiiine", is messing up public spaces with his vomit and piss.
i think that striving for a society with no addictions is utopian.
there will always be people who are going for the easy solution.
"is optimism in austria just a lack of information?"
-Alfred Dorfer
SILVER Member
slack rating - 9.5
2,216 posts
Location: Suburbiton, Yoo-Kay, United Kingdom
slack rating - 9.5
2,216 posts
Location: Suburbiton, Yoo-Kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
good point birgit but i know a lot of people that end up smoking fags as a result of starting to smoke spliffs so it is kind of a starting drug in terms of starting nicotine addiction....
a few points...
the government couldn't control the import of weed as it comes in through similar channels to all sorts of illegal stuff which they can't seem to control anyway...
they don't have enough resources to police the growing of weed as it is let alone if it were made legal... especially in nottingham with an under staffed police force and high use levels of hard drugs and apparent gun crime problems...
often the problem with alcohol, as it is with many drugs, is the way people approach it. alcohol needs to be seen more as the extremley powerful drug it is not some kind of socially acceptable luxury... i'm sick of people who drink alcohol telling me they 'don't do drugs'... all drugs including alcohol need to be properly considered by those who take them...
good point birgit but i know a lot of people that end up smoking fags as a result of starting to smoke spliffs so it is kind of a starting drug in terms of starting nicotine addiction....
a few points...
the government couldn't control the import of weed as it comes in through similar channels to all sorts of illegal stuff which they can't seem to control anyway...
they don't have enough resources to police the growing of weed as it is let alone if it were made legal... especially in nottingham with an under staffed police force and high use levels of hard drugs and apparent gun crime problems...
often the problem with alcohol, as it is with many drugs, is the way people approach it. alcohol needs to be seen more as the extremley powerful drug it is not some kind of socially acceptable luxury... i'm sick of people who drink alcohol telling me they 'don't do drugs'... all drugs including alcohol need to be properly considered by those who take them...
It is our fantasies that make us real. Without our fantasies we're just a blank monkey' - Terry Pratchett
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