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Forums > Social Discussion > Blair or Howard, is there any opinions not based on a slag match?

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Stainless Munchkin
Stainless Munchkin

Master of the Munchkins

Member Since: 20th Mar 2005
Total posts: 246
Posted:So this election has turned out like the one in America! Both major parties just insult the other parties leader, no policies are discussed or anything! I was just wondering what people thought of the two main candidates smile

Are you that clever that you smile forever? biggrin

What's from the Earth is of the greatest worth

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pricklyleaf
pricklyleaf

with added berries
Location: Manchester
Member Since: 7th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1365
Posted:Written by: spherculist


Blair and howard, what a pair of a-holes.



Listen. The Lib Dems in britain would probably do a much better job than either of the other 2. If you aren't planning on voting in this election, or if you dunno who to vote for I seriously reckomend taking a look at what the lib dems are all about. They just aren't tied up in the same levels of dirty money as teh other 2 parties. They have a lot of very sensible ideas and lets face it, they couldn't do any worse than blair. Plus they don't staand around slagging the others off nearly as much as red and blue.



m







IMPORTANT! DON'T BE FOOLED BY THE LIB DEMS!





There are many very good reasons why the lib dems are not one of the main candidates.



Theres a reason they don't slag the others off, they know it will win votes. If slaging the others off would win votes they would do that instead- Dont be so easily fooled!



The argument above is the argument the lib dems are counting on to win votes, Yet really it doesn't actually discuss policies. Actually it slags off labour and cons for slagging each other off, so isn't any better!



Lib Dems are seriously BAD for this country



THEY WANT PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION FOR GOODNESS SAKE!



Anyone who did GCSE history should know that this is a stupidly weak system of government.



IF YOU THINK NOTHING GETS DONE NOW, WITH PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION THIS WILL SLOW EVERYTHING DOWN EVEN MORE, HARDLEY ANYTHING WILL EVER GET PASSED BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE SYSTEM WORKS.



Proportional representation also gives the party worringly easy access to 'emergency powers' tha can be used to turn the country into a dictatorship. (this should be noted that this is how Hitler started!) I'm not saying that the LDS are going to have us frog marching down the street, but the system would stay in power longer than them, and how do you know the person in power in 10, even 5 years time won't abuse the system?



Another thing that seriously worries me is the fact that they seem to want to hand over all power to Europe. You can wave bye bye to the pound as soon as they come in, no referendum. you can also wave hello to the european constitution to a bigger scale that could cripple Britain.



I'm afraid I dont have time at the moment to discuss this in depth.



But my final point will be is don't be fooled by their apparent lack of sleaze, its just not high enough profile to hear about it. EVERY party has sleaze involved, its just their job to not let the general public find out. The more power and high profile a party is, the more visable the sleaze is.



DON'T LET THE LIB DEMS FOOL YOU!

EDITED_BY: pricklyleaf (1114512599)


Live like there is no tomorrow,
dance like nobody is watching
and hula hoop like wiggling will save the world.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:what the hell are you on about pricklyleaf? ubblol

stop shouting and instead say something that has merit and explain your views!



if you are against pr, explain why.

[edit: just seen your edit which adds a little background to your reasons for not liking pr but not much...]



proportional repesentation is not 'a stupidly weak system of government'.

it is an electoral system for a start, not a system of government and if you think it is 'stupidly weak', could you please show in what areas you think this is true using examples of countries that employ pr (e.g. sweden, germany, norway, netherlands, belgium) against countries that have a majoritatian electoral system (e.g. britain, canada, nz, australia, u.s.a., phillipines, zimbabwe).



i personally think pr would be a much more stable and fair way to elect our parliament and is more akin to the ideals of democracy.



the fact is that most countries that employ a majoritarian electoral system end up as two-party democracies with one-party governments.



in nations where pr is practised they generally have multi-party democracies with coalition governments, more consensus, stronger legislatures and a greater balance of power between the judicial, executive and legislative sections of the government.



so again i ask, how exactly do you define proportional representation as 'stupidly weak'?



have you read the three major party's manifestos and do you have have any comment on the policies on offer from each of them?



and as for your comments concerning the lib dems, did you bother to watch charles kennedy interviewed on itv last night?



it seems from your post above that your opinion is that the lib dems are trying to 'fool us' by talking about their own policies when in the media rather than using their time to slander the current labour government and the tories.



of course they criticise the government on decisions they do not agree with, one of the most strongly opposed of course being the decision to go to war on iraq - they also oppose the governments proposals for student fees, pensions, compulsory id cards and basic civil liberties.

the lib dem stances on these issues have not changed since the last general election and they have consistently opposed them in parliament.



i cannot believe that you are seriously asking people to not vote for the lib dems because you think that their tactics are 'to gain votes by 'not slagging off the others'...?



lastly i think you are slightly confused as to the lib dem stance on europe and the economy.

their intentions can be summed up as follows:



Written by: liberal democrat policy


The Case for the Euro



Liberal Democrats favour British membership of the euro at a sensible exchange rate,

subject to a referendum to allow the British people to make the decision. Entry can make

the UK substantially more prosperous by:

Reducing uncertainty for importers and exporters, so increasing trade.

Promoting competition in the economy, since trade increases choice for consumers.

Raising the rate of growth, as innovative firms are able to expand more easily.

Giving the UK more influence on single European market rules.







if you had bothered to read the lib dem policies at all, you could have avoided posting some of the inaccurate rhetoric you posted above...



peace





cole. x

EDITED_BY: coleman (1114514607)


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted:oh dear...

I guess the education/propaganda system is functioning pretty efficiently if the only knowledge of alternative democratic forms such as PR or direct democracy is GCSE history projects on Hitler...


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:Yes.
I was just about to ask if Pricklyleaf could explain a bit more about Proportional Representation, how it works and why it's bad. I don't know much about it, but i'd always assumed it would be a good thing, more freedom for all the little voices to be heard and all that.

Can anyone enlighten me on this? smile


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Basicly P.R works by giving each party the number of seats proportional to their vote. Generally this results in a minority government, where the ruling party does not control the majority of seats. I guess some people dislike this concept because it makes governing more complicated by being less dictatorial.

On course this really isn't my subject so I could be wrong.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:if we had PR, the BNP would actually be able to have an impact on the way the country is governed. think about it.

this is a general problem with PR: it lets vicious minorities get a word in.


ture na sig

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:There's not usually a minority government in PR but coalitions, minority governments are usually avoided even if it means long discussions and amendmends to a smaller party like the Greens.

There's also usually a minimum percentage of votes a party must get to get into parliament, in Germany it's 5 %, or alternatively a certain number of candidates voted for directly (like MPs would be here).

I suppose if a party can get 5 % of the population behind them it's only fair that they get into a parliament, even if they're vicious, for otherwise not-vicious minorities don't stand a chance either.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:tea fairy - check out my last post on page one for a good article on pr systems smile


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Stainless Munchkin
Stainless Munchkin

Master of the Munchkins

Member Since: 20th Mar 2005
Total posts: 246
Posted:I dont like the idea of joining the euro, it would be bad for economy i think, because we would no longer have one of the strongest currencies in the world, and the pound is also a symbol of the UK, so I would like to keep the pound for economical and patriotic reasons smile

Are you that clever that you smile forever? biggrin

What's from the Earth is of the greatest worth

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pricklyleaf
pricklyleaf

with added berries
Location: Manchester
Member Since: 7th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1365
Posted:argh! just typed out a long reply then my dad knocked me off the interenet and i lost it all! nooooo!

Anyway, it went something like this:

Im sorry if I ranted earlier but I still think PR is a very weak system of government.

The problem is everything has to be decided by voting, a majority wins. But when youve got a parliment where the lead party has a very slim majority (which if the lib dems did get into power this election, it most likely would be very slim), then its very hard to get a majority on any issue and the whole place just turns into a talking shop, where very little actually gets passed and it takes a very long time to get passed.

That with the issue above about worrying extremeists having more power and the fact that we actually abolished the PR system years ago-if it was so good then why? Id love to have the time to research the electoral system in other countries but I don't have time, but maybe you would like to post an unbiased overview?

PR where everyone gets their say is very nice and fair, but quite pointless when thats all it is- their say and nothing gets done.

(and please dont post saying Im just repeating my argument, I'm just trying to elaborate and as its 12.30 at night and I need to go to bed, I dont have time to argue the finer points so Im trying to keep this as clear and brief as possible)

Oh, and the reason I included the GCSE history bit (I do have higher history qualifications than this if you must know!) was because that if GCSE students are taught that PR is a weak system of government, it should only take a basic knowledge and understanding to realise this.

secondly, a bit about politics. The main aim of each party is to get into parliment. They do his by winning votes. They therefore think of tactics to try and win as many votes as possible, it is very niiave to think that this is not the case. For instance, watch the BBC's election updates where the reporter (whos name I cant remember at the moment but hes the grey haired man who is always on tv around elecions explaining what is happenning) and he explains all the tactics the parties are taking.

For instance

LABOUR: biggest threat the conservatives, therefore trying to convince people not to vote for them, by giving them reasons not to, (ie slagging them off). Trying to present the tories as divided, filled with sleaze, weak etc.
By trying to befreind the lib dems (which has been very visable in the past), they were trying to win their voters in a, we're quite similar but they've got no chance of winning, so vote of us instead, dont waste it, sort of way. They're mainly trying to keep hold of their current voters in this campaign, reminding them why not to go over to the other side', as well as targeting the all important grey vote

CONSERVATIVES: biggest threat/hinderence = labour, so reminding people about Iraq and europe issues, all the issues that are make the current government look bad, they churn up as much sleaze as possible to make labour look bad. They are seriously targetting the grey vote, especially on the issue of crime, and are currently winning in this area. They are also going for the anti-europe vote.

So the two main parties are too buy sirring up sleaze issues of the biggest threat, to worry too much abou the lib dems, their energy is better spent elsewhere. This is one explaination for the aparent lack of sleaze- but lets face it, where there is politics, power and money, there will always be sleaze.

LIBERAL DEMOCRATS: They have seen the slag match. They have heard the comments the Bishop made to polititions to not play on fear. They have realised that there best chance is to highlight the slag match between the 2main parties and stay out of it, and win vote s that way. If slagging off the others would benifit them, they would do that. They are taking a clever tactic. But if this is not a tactic then why are they publisising their lack of slagging off so much, in every speech. In fact you can argue they are slagging off the Ls and Cs for slagging each other off. But people dont realise this. They are also not entirly blameless themselves, if they are so determined not ot slag the others off then why are they bringing up the Iraq issue still? surly they should just leave that one lie if they truly are running a policies only campaign.

They are aware that the other parties are too busy concentrating on the grey vote to notice another big group, the youth, student group who are very discontent/disssatisfied with the thing that affects them most-education. They also realise that targetting them young, people are likley to stay loyal to the party for years to come, and so can gain growing numbers of voters this way.

this is all very much common sense, my point is- don't vote for a party just because/ using as a main factor, the not slagging off issue.

It also highlights the fact you shouldn't be swayed too much by the issues the parties are advertising, this can often be targeted marketing. You particulary should look more at budget issues, how a party actually spends its money dictates how it actually fufils those promises if elected. So many broken promises in the history of governments.

And by the way I didn't 'bother' to watch the speech on tv as I dont have one! But its all propaganda anyway, thats all election campaigns are. Can you honestly say you watched one for each party unbiasedly?

And one last thing, the referendum, they say would happen on the euro. I would be incredibly suprised if this actually happened, For instance, what happened to the european constitution referendum (different government, but still a government). Even if it did happen it would almost definately be rigged. Personally I want to keep the pound for the same reasons stainless posted, and for the fact that with the constitution, we would probably loose power over our own ecomony (these are all things that could happen gradually, they wont happen overnight but creep in), be relient on other countries that call us 'island monkeys' and dont really care that much if something that benifitted them would cause us to loose out. We would potentially loose control over taxes and all sorts. Whats good for the huge countries in europe, isnt necesarily good for our little island. As long as the fact we're not in the euro isn't completly crippling us, I dont think we should go into it.

The case for the euro doesn't weigh up any of the bad points. If you remember labour did extensive testing to see if it would be good for Britain to join the Euro, and discovered that it is not (at this point).

Seriously dont trust any party to follow up on a promise of a referendum.

Anyway, Im off to bed rolleyes


Live like there is no tomorrow,
dance like nobody is watching
and hula hoop like wiggling will save the world.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

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