Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > those axis turning orbitals

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Rev
Rev

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Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
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Posted:step 1- clockwise circle.. catch the poi with the left poi on top of the right hand and the right poi under (palm) of the left hand...



step 2- throw it into a horizontal orbital by throwing the poi on the right hand towards you.. and the poi in hte left hand away from you.. thr resulting orbital spins clockwise with the left hand on top and the right on bottom..



step 3- bring your left hand down to 9:00 (left side, maybe a little lower) and the right hand up to 3:00 (right side, maybe just a hair higher) and watch it turn...





you don't have to follow these steps.. this is just to get a clean setup that you can practice from pretty regularly.. These are just the steps I found that help teach it the easiest..



heavy poi can use either this method or the method from my much older tanlge turn clip.. unfortunately because of the weight of the glowsticks, you don't get as much torque, and thus have to turn the axis they wind around.. which gets the same effect, just coming at it from a different angle... weightier poi you can manipualte the m, lighter poi you need to focus more on the a.. though their are exceptions on both sides (you can crank a glowstick airwrap because the diameter is larger so you can target more on the m of the glowstick, and since with an orbital the a of heavier poi is much higher you can inturn use this method on heavier poi) *sigh* sorry.. just thought I'd interject that in there before people started raising questions about 'differences in mediums again.. meditate





so yeah here's a 2d orb.. once you get better control and some longer orbitals you can get it to turn more axi (thus higher d orbs).. enjoy... the 'proof' courtesy of cleric.. he's the man.. glad some people out there still pay attention to what I say..



hope you guys enjoy..



peace..





cleric's orb (right click, save as)

EDITED_BY: Rev (1113942124)


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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:Heavier would mean slower, but longer. You get some space in between the poi head and the point of rotation.

Personally I'm a big fan of the lighter and faster wink


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Rev
Rev

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Posted:I dunno about longer.. I think my sticks go longer because they have less friction than that of the ballchain.. but if I had straight kevlar rope poi I might could counter that *shrug*



all I'm saying is it works the same on both... its jsut given the mass of one and the acceleration of the other, they are obvious shortcuts..



edit: actually I think its mroe the air resistance.. I jsut gave them a spin and the narrow stick seems to glide better.. whihc might also contribute (perhaps more heavily then the ball chains friction.. though my ball chain eats some momentum in its own right.. but gets hella torque

EDITED_BY: Rev (1113942588)


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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:I wasn't talking about fire poi.... ewwww wink

Sock poi stretch it out even longer. Talking of times of like 20 seconds and so on. And you get the air resistance factor weighing in.

They're comfy.


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
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LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
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Posted:my sock poi get more airresistance than anything.. so I can't stretch them out near as long as my stick...

do you use stretchy socks? I hate stretchy socks.. but they do make them last longer.. though I'd still put my money on sticks..


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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:i uploaded that file rev, dunno if you did it already,

http://www.spherculism.com/video/orb.wmv
br>
it's a wicked video...


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Jo
Jo

member
Location: Sheffield, England
Member Since: 13th Dec 2000
Total posts: 517
Posted:Nice stuff that. smile



Just a quick thought on 'air resistance' in orbitals:



slipstream.



Jo. smile



thanks for the idea Rev and for the 'proof' Cleric/Naganooch - happy birthday mate ubbrollsmile


Educate yourself in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
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Posted:thanks matt.. hadnt heard from you so I got orbit to throw it up.. doesnt hurt to have it in more than one place though.. means it'll be already on the site when spherc comes up... so bust out the rod of ressurrect already wink

jo- if only.. but something saps the life out of ball chain/monkey fisted orbitals like a gold digger on a bank account..


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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
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Posted:since there seems to have been some dissenting opinions over whether or not one can achieve a full sphere with these things I would like to point to a simple case example..



take two pieces of pipe cleaner... wrap one around the other tightly so that it makes the whole makes a firm plus sign (no loose or wobbly points.. )



start spinning it as a forward buzzsaw...

now raise the left hand to bring it into a horizontal counter clockwise spin..

bring the left arm to the right side so that it is now in a reverse buzzsaw..

bring the left hand towards you so that it goes into a wallplane counter clock spin..

bring the left hand down so that it goes into a horizontal clockwise spin..

bring the left hand far out in front so that the its now wallplane clockwise..

complete the sphere by bring the left hand back to the left side, returning to a forward buzzsaw.. this is one version of a 6d orb's path..



now keep in mind there are many other turns and twists that you can make... your pipe cleaner should help empphasize this.. keep in mind that the only limit is your string length and your control over orbitals (ie conservation of momentum)



now perhaps there are physics may give some claim to how a rod can't make an orb, but this gyroscopic motions sure seems to trace the truning of a circle inside a sphere.. at least as far as I could tell, and the effect of the tracing paths of light is more then enough to cover any physics based fractional discrepencies (if there even are any).. besides even if the 6d orb is not perfect enough, there are several other fractional axis turns that can be made in order to complete anyone's tastes..



also I'd like to note that there is absolutely no reason why one would need to turn as fast as the poi.. I think the concept as a a swift blurry balls is rather some interpreters taking the concept too far.. flowers do not make the flower in one swoop, nor do some of our other patterns.. the pattern of the orb will be no different.. the lingering tracers will suffice to compelte the effect, and one with enough control (perhaps andy's uber fluidness) might be able to pull of a 6d motion in a swift enough manner to meet even those farfetched standards of the single ball-like image..



at any rate the the best I've seen thus far is 3d, so there's still a ways to go get to 6d, butthis pattern is still in its infacny, and I hardly see that as being any kind of limitation, in fact, I see it as a challenge.. wink


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Shu
Shu

Retro Fyre Wizzard
Location: Pietermaritzburg (KZN)
Member Since: 19th Apr 2005
Total posts: 538
Posted:just a quick question...

are you refering to isolation moves?

Your description sounds like it!


Regards hug

Shu
(Ice-E FyreStorm - Group Manager & Performer)

You know those people your parentals warned you about?... I'M ONE OF THEM! ubbloco
Yes, i do bite!!

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
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Posted:no the description right above your post was with a + shaped set of two pipe cleaners.. the pipe cleaner that goes --- was meant to serve as the axis of hand <-> hand while the pipe cleaner that is | is meant to serve as the axis of the poi <-> poi when your are spinning an orbital.. that way I could demonstrate that it was possible to make a sphere out by simply turning the axis of the poi using the other axis..

granted you could apply the technique to a buzzsaw or even an isolated buzzsaw, but you might find yourself a little restricted, since some of the arm positions leave very little room for the poi plane axis.. (sometimes less then a forearms length..) you might be able to overcome that with isolations.. but to be honest I cant get the isolation with the isolated buzzsaw part with the right hand on the left side and the left hand on the right side. (thought I'm sure with enough practice soeone could do it wink)


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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
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Posted:*sigh* some people are still nto understanding (not yous guys but other places), so I will try to clairfy things here since there's a link here in the thread..

1- this is not meant to be taken as a solid image.. anyone daft enough to think that a stick alone is meant to make a 3d sphere needs a right good slap.. the point is that the image + tracers marks out what appears to be a ball.. think of it like an electromagnetic field (ball) that gets highlighted as statics passes through it.. or the way light shines through a clear contact juggling ball when its rotated.. the image is a glowy orb..

2- someone mentioned somenthing about systems resistant to change.. and you couldnt turn without hitting yourself.. I'm not really sure what they meant.. and I'd really like him to clarify if he could.. because I've already demonstrated 3d tanlge turns (though I can get 4d out of those now..) and as far as the 'system' goes.. there is no change.. the axis stays set relative the other axis.. and the spin stays set relative the other axis.. so when you turn it the system is always the same relative itself.. your just moving the poles, whihc has no direct effect on the system..


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Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:Nice one smile back to the horizontal smile

POI THEO(R)IST

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:about 2 rev - all this stuff does seem to go against the laws of conservation of angular momentum.

there is a very big change to the system in this move: the system is not just the poi and strings - it also includes the forces apllied to the system (accel due to gravity and the forces your hands are applying).

obviously the torque you can apply to the tangle point is much more significant than some had previously thought (including me until i saw your first 'turning an orbital' video).

that first post had some sweet ideas and concepts - keep it up man hug


however, one thing i do get fed up with is pseudo science descriptions (and this isn't directed solely at you rev, its in general on hop).

if you are going to use physics to explain something, use it properly, otherwise leave it alone.

there is metaphysics but there is no fuzzyphysics.
i mean really, what exactly does this mean?:

"an electromagnetic field (ball) that gets highlighted as statics passes through it. or the way light shines through a clear contact juggling ball when its rotated. the image is a glowy orb."

confused


cole. x


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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:would a static field be any better.. its a sphere that invisible except the where the electricity shoots through it.. the electricity never goes past the static field (I assume electromagnet..) I saw it on fark about a year or two ago.. they had a whole string of cool science vids.. I still have some of them.. like the freestanding holes in vibrated fluid.. It's also a common effect of fantasy pictures, in games, etc.. unfortunately I know more about physics than I do graphics so I go with what I can do.. shrug

I was trying to explain the shimmer that you get where you see the orb but only in parts at a time.. because cleric (and I) have been catching some slack about how its "not an orb" by people that have no clue what they are talking about.. my apologies for offending you.. however.. I do not wish to stop using physics where I can.. the reason being it helos me put some context to the abstract math that I see when I do poi, and it opens doors for those that do know to come behind and clean it up.. because if I can understand the physics better, than I can better visualize the math, and thus can push some of these concepts even further.. so I apologise for the offense, but what this is me trying to convey what I see..

PLEASE dont dtake this as pushing your buttons cole.. I'm not trying to offend you, just understand.. and I'm not just making this [censored] up.. I tried going to the physics department.. but they just want to talk blankly about vectors.. they couldnt' explain anything about what I was doing.. only give me vague references to what might possibly be going on and mutterings about needing to get it on high speed film.. so as far as I can see and as far as the system goes.. sure I grant you the gravity.. but this one uses torque much different than my tanlge turn (whihc is an airwrap/hyperloop and not an orbital.. I don't mean that as offensive.. just as clarification..).. the tangel turn used torque in a major way.. because of the mass.. and allowed the crank action.. (I don't think there's anythign improper about that use of physics..) however, the this one was one the drawing boards for a while.. because the mass is too light to 'crank it' via torque.. so due to the way the tanlges are formed (forming?!? that whole perpetual tangle action) the moving of the hand axis applies a very little torque.. I would say negligible (like the mass of the sticks) from what I can tell, the turning action occurs mostly from the groove of the perpetual tangle.. the way it winds around the hand axis forces it to turn.. that's why the hand axis has to be carefully aligned.. becauseyou have to get the curve around the axis of the wind just right.. whihc is why sooo many people said this was impossible.. because its virtually impossible to turn it by torque. the speed of the orbital holds the plane straight.. so please help me understand what else is outside the system.. help me see what I'm doing wrong.. then we can get some of these 6d orbs sooner wink..

now one thing I want to try that I havent been able to really do well yet is twist my handles.. I don't know why but I'm compelled to say that if I could twist my handles I could make the axis turn better...

anyway.. I've said too much.. and am probably just digging myself a biggger hole.. but so far physics gurus have been at a loss to help me.. I'm not trying to use pseudoscience... If nothing else cole.. I appreciate you pointing out that I'm not some guy sitting at home using phsyics to create new moves, since apparently I'm using pseudophsyics.. (that's not sarcasm, I'm serious..) maybe some people will realize that I'm actually doing these things.. and then trying to make reason explain them.. rather than making them in reason and bs'ing others into trying them..


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