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stevi bee
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

member
Location: glasgow, United Kingdom

Total posts: 4
Posted:hello
i use paraffin for poi, but living in the UK and having recently moved to the middle of nowhere where paraffin isnt easy (impossible in fact) to come by, i was wondering about petrol as there is a basic petrol station 20 miles away - anyone got any advice or alternatives? i was recently in central america and im sure they were using gasoline there.
cheers


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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:No.
No.
NO.
No.
NO.
NO!

Petrol is highly explosive unlike paraffin.
NEVER use petrol.

EVER.

Im sure many more people will follow me and say exactly the same thing.

smile


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:A very, very bad idea. Petrol is highly explosive.



Amongst fire spinners petrol/gasoline is a total no-no; using it is highly dangerous.



Are there gardeners with greenhouses where you live? Find out where they get the fuel for their heaters as this is mainly what paraffin is sold for.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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stevi bee
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

member
Location: glasgow, United Kingdom

Total posts: 4
Posted:cheers onewheeldave
i know its a no no, but you know needs must and i was just wondering, you know , if i was careful....... but i know! no.
il ask the gardeners :-)
im sure they were using it in mexico though,,,and they were proper performers in a venue........gasoline is petrol right?


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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:Petrol is indeed Gasoline.

Indeed, they may have been using petrol for their wicks, but in doing so, they were not only putting their own lives at risk, but also the lives of the audience.

It is still a stupid idea regardless of if people have done it or not.


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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:At the risk of this thread sounding like a broken record: No, using petrol is incredably dangerous.

The chances are that if you know where to buy petol, you also know where to buy paraffin - most petrol stations seem to sell it, usually either from a tank that you fill your own container from, or in 4 litre plastic bottles.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I think it's a regional thing- where I am most petrol stations don't stock paraffin.

Big DIY stores used to generally have it; now most round here don't.

It's worth checking out the small independant DIY/hardware shops if there's no nearby garages that stock it.

It goes without saying that, in the unlikely event that there are no sources of paraffin in the area, petrol is still not a viable substitute- in that situation the only sensible thing to do is refrain from fire spinning until a suitable fuel is tracked down.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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DoktorSkell
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

DoktorSkell

addict
Location: Van Diemans Land, Australia

Total posts: 475
Posted:Sorry but this dead horse must be beaten.

Using petrol for fire spinning is the most stupid thing thought of since george bush was elected.


Fair luna bright, fair luna moon
it shines at night but fades too soon
fair luna moon, fair luna bright
forever we dance
we dance under starlight

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fie


fie

Member


Total posts: 15
Posted:could always order stuff online!

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:But WHY do you all think gasoline is so dangerous, when compared to the fuel of choice on this side of the pond?

Is it volatility? harmful fumes given off when burning? what?

I know kerosene is just this side of idiot proof when it comes to what we're doing with it, I've dunked burning poi in open 20 liter containers of kero before, and if it lights up,,,well just blow it out. If you tried that with white gas (naphtha), it just might be the last thing you ever did.

Think aliphatic hydrocarbon chemistry,,, and how it's related to volatility, and flammability . I'm not convinced that gasoline is any more dangerous than naphtha.


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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:eek

*runs away*


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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:it explodes, it explodes, it explodes . . . .

argh.

e


ture na sig

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:And white gas doesn't explode?? It is available in the U.K. buy some,, try it then come back and tell me it's "safer" than petrol

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I've no experience with 'white gas' so can't comment on it. I always advise paraffin (UK name) as it's the safest easily available fuel.

Threads talking about petrol on HOP do not have a good survival rate- any thread seen as promotoing use of petrol will be deleted by a mod.

One reason to NEVER use petrol for spinning fuel is that it gives off a lot of fumes when it's stood- they can be ignited by such things as estinguised wicks, cigarettes etc, etc, this will lead to an explosion which could kill/severely burn anyone nearby.

Does white gas do the same? my impressions from what others have posted is that it's nowhere near as volatile.

Does white gas have to be sold in special containers?

Petrol (in the UK) does- you cannot buy it in the standard plastic containers than paraffin comes in- if you want to take some from a garage, apparently it's illegal without a special container.

That's an indication of how dangerous petrol is.

It's TOTALLY UNSUITABLE for spinning. And, on the day we get our first fatality from spinning, it's a fair bet that it will because some idiot has brought petrol along to a meet.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted:Petrol=BAD! BAD! BAD!
I also have had trouble finding 'parrafin' in the UK, it's sometimes sold under different names. I have used BBQ lighter fluid before, which I believe IS parrafin... I just sort of presumed that if people have been known to squirt it on naked flames at a BBQ it can't be that explosive. I'm sure they wouldn't sell it for use on BBQs if it was likely to go BOOM. (I did check the label as well, of course!).
Also, check out heating supply stores, they sometimes sell parrafin or pure lamp oil, which is also not volatile. smile


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish, USA

Total posts: 525
Posted:lighter fluid is a mix of naptha and parrafin if i remember right....but i dont know...so id say get an msds...

Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Disc0


annoying boy
Location: Sweden

Total posts: 160
Posted:tea fairy: if you send a mail to the manufacturers (i think you can ask in the shop too) you can get the MSDS.... can prove to be quite handy if you are unsure of the ingedients i the lighting fluid or so...

fire is just light and heat.
it's you friend!

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Gelfling
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

Gelfling

Watcher of 80s cartoons
Location: Chepstow & Bristol, United Kin...

Total posts: 665
Posted:I've used sunflower oil before - it needs a bit of heating first though. However, carrying hot oil isn't the safest thing to do and when it is alite its very hot so hot that it can't be put out with water. Therefore, sand buckets are needed to put toys out - which isn't too great for wicks.
EDITED_BY: Gelfling (1113323752)


>What do you think about the state of the Earth?
>I'm optimistic.
>So why do you look so sad?
>I'm not sure that my optimism is justified.

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squarefish
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
Location: the state of flux, Ireland

Total posts: 403
Posted:White gas is a blend of gasoline/petrol and some other chemicals to reduce the volatility and stop it from exploding in your face (as much). wink

Petrol explodes.

Thats what it is designed to do, but usually we want this to happen inside an engine,
not all over our bodies and or faces.

(stout: are you trying to get people to explode themselves? truly uncool bro....)


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:I'm not trying to promote the use of gasoline, I'm just curious as to why so many people say " Gasoline BAD" when naphtha is in my opinion just as nasty when it comes to blowing up in your face.

Coleman's fuel is sold exclusivley in metal tins, and I don't know of a petrol station thaty sells it in bulk, it's the camping supply store that I score from. Here's a few highlights from the lengthy warning printed on the can.

" This fuel can cause flash fires and serious burn injuries if used improperly. Fuel vapours are invisible, explosive, and can be ignited by ignition sources many feet away. ALWAYS fill outdoors. DO NOT use as a fire starter, to light BBQ's or other fires.....Handle with same care as gasoline. NOT FOR USE IN INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES.

Not my capitals, that's how the print reads. Best thing is to go out, get some of this stuff and try a few burns with it. The first thing you'll notice is the strong smell,,the first indication of how volatile this stuff is. Second thing you'll notice,,,how fast and easy your poi light up.....whump!! especially when they're warm. Then, you'll notice the lack of skanky kerosene stink. Use this, and you'll never go back to kero.

So how does this compare to gasoline?? I don't really know, and I spent a lot of time trying to find out. I know how it compares to kero through first hand experience, but I've never spun with gasoline,,,I don't want to,,, it smells bad.

I never found out about any additives to reduce the volatility, and I wouldn't mind hearing more, the toxic vapours thing I can handle too. But none of this information is on a MSDS ( The one I have for white gas is 9 pages ) Which leads me to another question. What useful information do you get from an MSDS ? Do not induce vomiting? vapour pressure? LD50? anyways I digress.

It was never my intent to promote petrol as a fuel, and I hoped that wouldn't be taken as the intent of my previous posts. So what makes white gas so much safer than petrol anyway?


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi stout, yes I can see your point. Everyone universally condemns spinning with petrol, but many use white gas, colemans and other highly volatile fuels.



Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt white gas really UnLeadedPetrol with out the additives? Sure, gasoline may not be any more dangerous than naphtha, but both are extremely dangerous imo. Though I would suspect the additives in ULP are really toxic when inhaled or burnt compared to white gas.



I agree there are some advantages with white gas (shellite) but they are generally out weighed by its extremely low flash point and volatility. Also white gas burns hot and its really easy to set your clothes on fire. Empty drums of white gas will explode, and vapours can also be explosive. Imagine what would happen if a dipping bucket of white gas is tipped over inside a club for example. Voosh, the whole place is on fire and people are running for their lives.



Kero really stinks, uck! I dunno about the aliphatic hydrocarbon chemistry. In Oz we go for the isoparaffins like shellsol tk? and indeed the much talked about Firewater is probably a blend from this group.



stevi bee damping down white gas or shellite with some lamp oil may be the go. Shellite is often avaliable in supermarkets, ditto other and other camping fules.





smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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ImmortalAngel
SILVER Member since Jan 2004

Scientist!
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 578
Posted:Written by: stout

And white gas doesn't explode?? It is available in the U.K. buy some,, try it then come back and tell me it's "safer" than petrol



Alright, this isn't something that only the UK people think.
Living in Canada, with a cold climate, I must say, white gas is the fuel of choice for me and my friends, especially during the winter, early spring and late fall, and even some chilly summer nights.
I spin with kero when ever possible though because kero, in my experience, is alot harder to blow up or light from afar by accident from the fumes. I use colemans for my white gas, and it's never blown up on me. My friend was spinning and left the top off of his dipping container, and he didn't do a proper spin off so a meteor of flaming fuel landed on top of the open fuel far. With petrol we would have had pieces of the container blown straight through us and have caused a nicely sized explosion. We were using white gas, so the top just lit on fire, which I quickly put out, then we went on to smother all the other flaming droplets.

White Gas is less likely to blow up then petrol.
And Kero is the least likely of all.
Simple facts.


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:I don't really know what exactly white gas is,,in fact nobody really knows, not even the guys who make it. According to Chevron's website, the chemistry of most hydrocarbon fuels is so complicated, that today's technology isn't capable of doing a detailed molecular analysis. Chevros guesses that there may be as many as a thousand different molecules in jet fuel,,but it's still referred to as kerosene.

The reason I mentioned aliphatic chemistry is because it's the simplest way to look at the fuels we deal with. Simple, hydrocarbon chains, the first four methane, ethane,propane, butane, exist as gasses, when we move further up the spectrum, the first group we hit,,,,naphthas, then gasolines, kerosenes, candle wax, ashphalt.......
Isoparaffins are more complicated, but still hydrocarbons.

White gas could be unleaded petrol, and when I typed in the highlights from the warning on the can, I left out all the NEVER USE INDOORS,,for anything ,,,text. Unlike kerosene, which is sold for use in indoor heaters.

Of course, if you've never experienced white gas, then it's understandably difficult to see what I'm on about with this topic. It came from the recent spate of safety threads, and I always found it ironic that petrol was called REALLY BAD, but white gas was OK

The other thing I'm always curious about is, Where did you get your information? Why is white gas ok?

Immortal Angel,,,that open container would not have exploded if it had been full of gasoline, it would have caught on fire like it did with the white gas. Gasoline vapours have to be contained to cause an explosion, at least one that will turn your fuel bucket into shrapnel. The vapours in the air might ignite with a concussive whump, but that's about it.

Has anyone seen that t.v. show "Mythbusters" ? they did a thing on cell phones, static electricity and petrol stations. The cell phone thing was proven to be a myth, and the static discharge thing, caused fires, not explosions, and the fires were made worse by people yanking the still pumping gas hose out of their filler nozzels and spraying flaming gasoline everywhere.


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squarefish
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
Location: the state of flux, Ireland

Total posts: 403
Posted:AHA!





'scuse me please

Now go to this site which has not only

1. a breakdown of the composition for most commonly used fuels but also

2.explains the whole "name confusion" issue between white gas, petrol and white spirits but also

3. gives lists of comparable fuels as they are sold around the world!



http://members.iinet.net.au/~mbuckler/fuel/index.shtml






smileQuite possibly the handiest thing I;ve found on the net this year! smile

don't usually blow my own trumpet ,but..... toot-toot! biggrin





(Edited to provide tidier updated version of web page)

EDITED_BY: squarefish (1113424537)


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:It's a sorry mess isn't it? (working out what name goes with which fuel, internationally).



Is there another way to convey to newbies which fuels are safest to use?



i.e. without using terms which mean totally different things in different parts of the world, or without sending them to a page which is actually quite informative, but is far from concise.



(and I'm not critisising the page at all, it is very informative; I'm just thinking of those newbies who are in a rush to get lit up and could use a fairly promt, concise answer; and also taking account of the fact that the page may not be up for ever)



For example, would it be better to say something like-



------------------



DO NOT EVER use fuel that goes in motor vehicles, as it is highly explosive and gives off volatile fumes.



Be extremely wary of any fuel which can be ignited after being poured onto the ground (if you're going to try this, use small quantities please.



Fuels that are used to power small greenhouse heaters, and which will NOT ignite when poured onto the ground, are generally the safest.



-----------------



Does that seem like a good idea?



Can anyone anticipate problems with it?



Can anyone add further ideas?

EDITED_BY: onewheeldave (1113957509)


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Makes sense dave.

nice one smile


Love is the law.

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:I gotta agree with Stout on this one. White gas really isnt much different than petrol. Thats not to say Id ever use petrol, but when it comes down to it, they're both just about as dangerous. In fact, I personally know someone who uses petrol exclusively for fire eating and has been doing so for ~30+ years... Granted, hes only got 4 teeth left but... smile.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:AHA! is right, that's a great website. I was introduced to Coleman's fuel as white gas in the 1970s and have called it that ever since, so it's different As much as my ego would like me to be proven right when I compare the safety of these two fuels,,,I don't mind being proven wrong.

I find it interesting to note that the write up on Coleman's fuel actually came from the manufacturer, and the uses it was developed for are the uses they caution against on the side of their packaging. Times change.

OWD,,,newbies are the reason I'm beaking off about the comparison,,,again. I know the safety info is available on this website, and I hope most new burners read it with care and understanding,,,but as you mentioned, there's the " in a hurry to light up" thing.

If a newbie came on this site, stoked about spinning fire they may first visit the shop for a set of practice poi, a DVD, a book,,and maybe a set of wicks,,for later, you know.
Our studious newbie reads through all the safety info, and remembers, that Colemans is mentioned as an acceptable fuel, along with kerosene,, and remembers that there's a tin of the stuff in the garage.

Maybe it's getting dark, and the warning on the side of the tin is hard to read but out newbie, along with attendant safety person of course,,,,fuels up and spins off. He/She has a great burn and at the end, notices the wicks are smouldering. Remembering what to do to extend the life of His/Her wicks, because there's a few threads around about it,,,our newbie dunks the smouldering wicks into.the metal bucket of fuel, and if it didn't catch fire, out newbie might be horrified to learn that this stuff bolis on contact with hot poi. frown

Maybe Coleman's should be awarded the same status as gasoline when it comes to warnings.


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: stout


Coleman's fuel is sold exclusivley in metal tins, and I don't know of a petrol station thaty sells it in bulk, it's the camping supply store that I score from. Here's a few highlights from the lengthy warning printed on the can.

" This fuel can cause flash fires and serious burn injuries if used improperly. Fuel vapours are invisible, explosive, and can be ignited by ignition sources many feet away. ALWAYS fill outdoors. DO NOT use as a fire starter, to light BBQ's or other fires.....Handle with same care as gasoline. NOT FOR USE IN INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES.




That does sound quite bad.

Really the safest thing is to try and get hold of kero/paraffin- fuel with a 'high flashpoint' (ie 'any fuel whose ignition point is high enough that it does not ignite easily, nor does it have combustible fumes' [from HOP FAQ]).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lets say I found this
interfire link in a foreign place.

wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Written by:
6. Fuel oil no. 1- (kerosene, range oil, coal oil, Jet - A (aviation) fuel); Chemical formula is a carbon range of C9 - C17; flash point 110 degrees F - 162 degrees F (42 degrees C - 72 degrees C); ignition temp. 410 degrees F (210 degrees C); explosive limits 0.7% - 5%; vapor density .7 - 5; specific gravity 0.81; Toxicity (3). A colorless, combustible, straight run petroleum distillate liquid having a characteristic odor miscible in petroleum solvents and immiscible in water. Principal uses as an ingredient in lamp oils, charcoal starter fluids, jet engine fuels and insecticides. K-1 kerosene has a low sulfur content and is used in portable space heaters



They forgot fire spinning confused


Love is the law.

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