Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > Glowsticking moves, with poi.

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NYC
NYC

NYC
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Posted:In the interest of furthering diplomacy, I thought it'd be fun to look at some of the moves our glowsticking brothers have been inovating and seeing how, or even IF they could be incorporated into sock poi or fire poi moves.

It'd also be interesting to see what moves have difficulty transferring the other way. I remember giggling like a spaz at my New York folks trying to see who had the best glowstick isolations. They were ALL pretty sad.

Then again, it's nice to see moves like "Flowers" making such a smooth transition to glowsticks pioneered by our own diplomat Kael.

I've been talking a bunch of crap about 'gumbys' without actually putting the time and energy into actually getting it done.

I think that it would be important to document what we've done on film as there seems to be some debate as to the authenticty of claims.

So:
Glowstickers, can you give us some things to try that are specifically glowsticking?

And poi kids, can you do them?

[Disclaimer: We're talking about a SPECIFIC move or skill that would be common to the glowstick vocabulary. NOT can you do my 15 minute routine while I'm reciting pi to the 100th digit.]

I call gumbys. I'll work on them tomorrow if it's sunny with my fire wicks. I know I'll have to buy some parts once I figure out what parts I need for nonflammable straps but I'm on the case. And if you don't know what gumbys are, Durbs a do.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Rev
Rev

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Posted:I (and others) are saying they are different.. but in the same class that you try to restrict them too.. we admit that your small subsect of glowstringing does not have many roots in common with poi.. but poi are poi.. period... if I decide (one of dantana's crew did ) to skateboard with poi, I would be skateboarding.. AND I would be doing poi.. the same as when you are glowstringing you are glowstringing AND using poi (or poi-ing if you will)

your arguemnt that glowstringing is different lies in the fact that you somehow think that you can classify type moves.. and there are no type moves.. any poi (sock, fire, or glowstring) is a token of the type poi.. and what works for one works for all..

all this nonsense about medium only moves is ridiculous because the only point being made is that you don't have to have as much skill with that medium to do that move.. not that it is inherent to that medium only..


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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Glowsticking isnt different from poi though.

Theres a good discussion going on in the Discussion forum you should read.

wink


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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
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Posted:Maybe I'd do more than sway back and forth and turn sloppily if I had more than 5 feet of spinning room wes?

wink

Just a point. I'm merely listening to you guys. I'm back to practicing.


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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mixinluv2u
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Location: chicago suburb, IL
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Posted:

Written by: Unfortunatly Can Obtain Fruit


Glowsticking isnt different from poi though.



Theres a good discussion going on in the Discussion forum you should read.



wink



you mean the thread i started?



and i'm trying to explain how it IS different by making an analogy with rope dart.



- rope dart moves are designed/developed specifically for the tool: to damage one's opponent in battle. much like the moves developed/designed specifically for glowsticks on shoelaces: to glowstring.

- rope darts and martial arts has different culture, philosophy, and community. much like glowstringing and raves.

- when martial artists try to advance in their own art, they focus on different things than poi. (tricks to damage opponent vs artistic value). like how glowstringers focus on glowstring-oriented moves, heavy emphasis on developing style via combo construction, etc



all the above points are very non-poi, and very glowstring. so how can you say it's the same?

EDITED_BY: mixinluv2u (1113079072)


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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:"you mean the thread i started? "

Yes.

I mean the thread you started.

Thought you understand that and go ubblol

rolleyes
Bloody Yanks wink <--(which denotes a joke)


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Rev
Rev

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Posted:rope dart makes use of the medium...
poi makes use of the medium..
your form of glowstringing limits to only certain uses of the medium..

this is alike again how?


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Rev
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Posted:let me add.. that I forgot how one poi wouldnt be spinning poi.. nor 3 nor 4 because only two poi is poi.. LOL



no I think you should watch more rope dart wes.. perhaps arashi could help you with that.. they use lots of poi moves.. but they use it to martial end.. which is *gasp* how the maori used it.. but they also (like the asian cultures) used it in dance.. those couldnt possibly be the same tools.. nor the same motions.. could they? ubblol


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mixinluv2u
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Posted:rope darts also limits uses of the medium. don't martial artists believe in less wasted movements? you only create more opening for your opponent if you don't "limit your use."

maybe poi doesn't limit anything. but that's poi.

and i guess that's another major difference in philosophy of poi and glowstringing.


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Rev
Rev

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Posted:they use rope dart for martial arts and in art.. and they do not classify them as rope dart 1 and rope dart 2... so no... they don't limit.. they make the use of their tool..



some people stress certain factors.. like for instance martial motions only.. but again.. these are not a seperate form of ropedart.. its still just rope dart.. just like though your form of glowstringing stresses certain moves, it is glowstringing just as much as anything else is glowstringing.. and likewise poi..



the moves are a manifestation of the medium... not a requirement or stupulation of it..



edit: I would like to also point out that there are forms of dance that stress only martial components.. but these are still all the same thing..

EDITED_BY: Rev (1113081571)


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MikeIcon
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Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
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Posted:I dont see how there can be wasted movement. Its dance, art, expression of self. IMO saying there are wasted movements is putting a "limit" on things.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Rev
Rev

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Posted:amen brother icon..



making the most of your tool is making the most of your tool.. ie no limits.. you can't limit and say that you are stressing what the tool can do..

EDITED_BY: Rev (1113081662)


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mixinluv2u
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Posted:let's look at dance then. your tool is your body. but there are many people "putting limit" on things. ballet dancers, jazz, etc, all have "limit" and specific movesets. that doesn't make them worser dancers than those that practice everything. in fact, most of the time specialization yields more focused and better dancers in their respected fields.



i'll agree that dance is an expression. so what if i say glowstringing is an expression of it's relation to freehand glowsticking and the rave cultural roots. and that in my vision i wish all glowstringers help me express this point more clearly by move away from poi roots, and make it more distinct. would that work?



a lot of times less and more.

EDITED_BY: mixinluv2u (1113084120)


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Jo
Jo

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Posted:"and that in my vision i wish all glowstringers help me express this point more clearly by move away from poi roots, and make it more distinct. would that work?"



I'm not convinced it would work for -everybody- in your community Wes.



'Glowsticking moves, with poi.' would be a better topic for here though imo - and a well intentioned topic to boot... wink smile



Jo.

EDITED_BY: Jo (1113085158)


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mixinluv2u
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Posted:and it doesn't have to work for "everybody."

it worked for those that wanted to follow it, and that's good enough for me. =)


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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
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Posted:I thought I posted...

How odd...



Whats the point of a debate?

Is it for everyone to come to the same conclusion, and agree on everything?



confused



I wish simian was here to give his point of view...


EDITED_BY: Unfortunatly Can Obtain Fruit (1113086072)


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Rev
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Posted:Written by: Unfortunatly Can Obtain Fruit


I wish simain was here to give his point of view...







me too...





wes- you promote something under a bogus desription.. you speak as if your view is the culture.. or that the moves are exclusive to your dance.. and its not..



you make two fundemental errors..

1- that you can use poi but yet not be 'using' poi..

2- that you can exclude 'poi' moves.. as if there were such a thing.. the point being that if you exclude poi moves, you are essentially excluding anything done with the poi.. so thus you exclude what you do..



the point you try to make is that it can be as different as any other form of 'weight on string'... yet none of these other uses of 'weight on string' claim that they only use non-poi moves.. nor do they encourage that.. why? because the moves are irrelvent to the medium whihc is why many of them find uses in other domains.. staff for instance.. juggling is another example.. but yet we don't call those motions poi moves.. nor do we call poi moves as staff moves.. or poi moves as juggling moves?



the thing is juggling uses the same concentric circular patterns that poi uses.. just as other forms that use these motions.. glowstringing is different from staff or juggling in that you don't use poi to staff or juggle.. (not saying you couldnt'' but that's besides the point.. ) just because glowstringers use poi moves, doesnt make them just poiple.. they are glowstringers.. period.. because that is their chosen medium and they have a culture that goes along with it.. your limitations are simply your limitations.. they dont' define your art.. nor are they based on anything but your own wishes and desires..



so you are a glowstringer that tries to use less spin and more manipulation.. I'm a glowstringer that chooses to embrace my tool to maximum efficiency.. are we different? yes.. are we both glowstringers? yes... were you the first glowstringer.. or even the first to use the term.. I could see where you might have in some warped sense an argument.. but you werent.. and you didnt.. so I think its only fair that you acknowledge your place within the community.. I mean you don't see the tightend on a football team redefining tightend as something not part of the football team.. because it is the onlty lineman that can legally catch the ball.. however he can say that he is part of a unique part of the team.. and though he is a football player, he focuses on being a tightend..


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mixinluv2u
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Location: chicago suburb, IL
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Posted:when did i say glowstringers CAN'T or SHOULDN'T use poi moves?



i said poi moves done with glowstrings all look the same, because of their lighter weight and therefore inferiority to heavier poi on the subject of adding body movemtn. that's a valid observation and i'm entitled to my opinion.



(just like how a lot of you guys think that all wraps look the same, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. i think that under a whole different/combo perspective, they look different, and i can pick out combos and work on each one individually, but that's something you guys don't understand, coming from poi perspective... but that's ok. i don't think there's right or wrong, just different).



and based on the above observation alone i can promote the focus of glowstringing on other fields. it's not bogus. the way i promote all have reasons and valid arguments, and we explain over and over. you don't have to agree. i don't expect you to agree. but that doesn't mean i have to agree with you either.



if a glowstringer wants to use more poi moves, that's their choice, i don't really care. but i'm simply pointing out that by doing so, that particular glowstringer isn't helping with the fact that glowstringing CAN be its own entity.



and i also point out that if a glowstringer wants to focus on the route to develop style via adding body movement, it will be an uphill battle. and that it will be easier learned/achieved by switch to heavier poi sets. and that is also true.



Glowsticking.com is the first to coin the term "glowstringer" and "glowstringing" as far as i know, along with "freehand" and "glowsticking" (i could be wrong, we'll have to ask cynicdave).

EDITED_BY: mixinluv2u (1113090943)


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mixinluv2u
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Posted:Written by: Rev

the point you try to make is that it can be as different as any other form of 'weight on string'... yet none of these other uses of 'weight on string' claim that they only use non-poi moves.. nor do they encourage that..


that's because people like Jo or yourself does not go over to martial arts forum and tell them that they are not actually doing rope darts, they are actually JUST DOING POI. because all weight on string is considered poi.

if there were such statement made on the martial arts forum, i bet they will respond the same way i did. they will argue that they have their own moveset (focused on hurting opponent), have their own philosophy, etc. and therefore argue they are actually in fact, closer related to other martial art style than poi.


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mixinluv2u
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Posted:Written by: Rev

you make two fundemental errors..
1- that you can use poi but yet not be 'using' poi..
2- that you can exclude 'poi' moves.. as if there were such a thing.. the point being that if you exclude poi moves, you are essentially excluding anything done with the poi.. so thus you exclude what you do..


it only doesn't make sense to you because you don't think glowstringing and poi are different. i believe they are. and therefore, arguments coming off of that particluar perspective makes sense.


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Rovo
Rovo

(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
Location: Austin, TX, USA
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Posted:I want to know what the reason for this separtation between poi and glowstringing is all about. What does it matter? If you even admit mixinluv2u that alot of glowstringers don't folow the way you veiw glowstringing then why go and try and get it set apart as something different when it's not even what the majority thinks? I agree with rev poi moves glowsticking moves it's all fundamentally the same.

Peace, Love, Circles

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mixinluv2u
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Posted:read this article for a more detailed understanding of what glowsticking (freehand/glowstring) is.

http://www.glowsticking.com/about.php


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mixinluv2u
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Posted:here are some reasons why we think seperation is good.

Written by: Cynicdave1


Objections: Why do we need to "differentiate"?

Differentiation allows us to explain things better. That's why we label species. Why do we differentiate between football and rugby, hockey and ice hockey, saxaphone and a flute, cricket and baseball?

Answer: Because it's convenient to. Doesn't mean people can't use concepts from one of the other and educate themselves, but it's help when we describe things.



Why does glowsticking.com differentiate? Well because glowsticking is practiced mostly at raves, and we don't want competitions and we want tolerance, so we have to at least get the culture clear. So we call glowstringing "glowstringing" and hopefully it'll tell people the roots, and thus the culture of glowstringing.



To NYC:

Yes, we admit that other swinging fields are just as diverse. Just like how the difference between rugby and football is small compared to the overall field of ball sports like soccer. To everyone who want to study a particular style, go ahead!



Question: Why don't we just do EVERYTHING. Why do we have to name something glowstringing and just do that? Isn't that limiting?



Answer: Yes. very limiting. In fact, it's tremendous sacrifice sometimes to just use glowsticks on a string. You can't do certain moves as well as regular poists can. But you can gain some real benefits as well.



Reason.. why?: Well I guess it's the same reason why artists call some things "surrealist" or "cubist". it gives us a framework.



The same reason why ballet dancers and tap dancers decide to differnetiate and institute limitations.




Here is a another question:

Why do ballet dancers and tap dancers differentiate themselves?



Answer: Because you can't possibly learn EVERYTHING in life. Or have the time. So would you rather good at a lot of things, or REALLY good at one cool thing that really appeals to you, or like most people do you want to concentrate on swinging fire (or led's or glowsticks) and REALLY learn how to do that one thing that appeals to you well. Because they all got different aspects to them. with fire, it's fire, so it can burn. maybe you need to use heavy chains. I don't know. But when you really start thinking about things you can do with fire, you will, and the same with glowsticks. You can do a lot of things with it that's just not the same as "poi. We borrow more from yo-yoing and (Freehand) glowsticking. Sure, we are at an infantile stage, but give us a break, it's our 3rd year of having a website. Give us a year or two to come up with "pure" glowstringing. someone decided, hey I can paint this picture using lots of dots instead of strokes on canvas. I'm sure his first work wasn't all that great. In fact, maybe he finished up the painting using strokes.



Doesn't mean people like Picasso can't do a lot of things in their life. Like OnewheelDave when he described about juggling and poi (and it seems animosities exist everywhere). People like Picasso go into different artistic phases. But usually it seems people choose one or the other.


EDITED_BY: mixinluv2u (1113092364)


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onewheeldave
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Posted:So is it fair to say that the reason you want to emphasise the difference between glowstringing and poi, is to encourage glowstringers to develop and innovate a style that fully exploits the characteristics that set glowstring equipment apart from poi equipment (eg lightness)?

In conjunction with a belief that constraints (in terms of moves used etc), far from diminishing the style, will actually progress it.


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mixinluv2u
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Posted:yes, pretty much right on target

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:Different focuses for different schools of thought/dance.

I can say that the control I learned from "mastering" wraps + wrap combos first made it remarkably easy for me to learn "advanced techy poi" later on, like flowers and isolations.

It's about two years later and I look at my progress. I believe if I continue to learn, then when I am older, I'll be that much better also.

Wil's in the game Wes, you coming? wink


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

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Jo
Jo

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Posted:Certainly Kael, you have turned out an ok spinner. wink biggrin



Jo.



PS Where's that topic again ? wink

EDITED_BY: Jo (1113095023)


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:UCOF is this true?



Written by:
NO JO! Your feet must remain stationary at all times. Otherwise it isnt Glowsticking... its Poi.





No, thats clubswinger style wink hehehehe. And they were swinging electric light bulbs around, C. 1900.





mixinluv2u, I was downloading the tutting vid, and all I can say is that NO one that Im aware of has ever considered glowstringing as a bastardized version of poi. From superman and before, everyone I know would encourage glowstringers or anyone else to break away from stereotypes and spin out of the box.



try swinging these as a comaprison wink


EDITED_BY: Stone (1113101201)


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
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Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

So is it fair to say that the reason you want to emphasise the difference between glowstringing and poi, is to encourage glowstringers to develop and innovate a style that fully exploits the characteristics that set glowstring equipment apart from poi equipment (eg lightness)?

In conjunction with a belief that constraints (in terms of moves used etc), far from diminishing the style, will actually progress it.



And my response to that would be:

OVER emphasizing the difference between glowstringing and poi alienates hybrid spinners.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:If I could get back on topic for a second...

I played in the park today with the concept of using gloves to do catches and made quite a bit of progress.

Firstly, I think the key may be to catch the end of the chain next to the wick rather than the wick itself. This way, you can hold the wicks from underneath and let the fire burn upward so you're not actually burning the gloves.

Secondly, I gotta figure out a combination of chains that works. I might use regular chain link as bracelets and then attach ballchain to that. THOUGH ballchain is REALLY hard to manipulate with the gloves. BUT regular chain link doesn't slide apart as nicely.

Plus I gotta remember to wear a wool cap or I'm gonna burn the heck out of my ears.

The wicks seem OK. And actually heavier wicks are more helpful since the gloves make it hard to catch stuff anyway. The wicks tend to bounce off the gloves so I think catching the chain is the way forward.

In presentation, I think it would look good to 'flash' some glowsticky moves rather than do a whole set of them.

But the gloves are gonna make lenghtening and shortening chains on the fly very difficult as well.

Progress made. Still some kinks.

Oh yo... but my fire plate is ON. wink

Hrmm... Maybe that's what I'll do during the weekdays in Edinburgh. biggrin


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:"I think the key may be to catch the end of the chain next to the wick rather than the wick itself"

Ouch.

Would that not hurt your hands?

If you are wearing gloves then I still think that catching the wicks is best.
And yeah..
As NYC said,
Where was that topic again?

You all know the correct place if you want to debate.
Theres already a thread for this discussion. Go talk there.

This is poi moves. tongue


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