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DoktorSkell
DoktorSkell

addict
Location: Van Diemans Land
Member Since: 11th Jan 2005
Total posts: 475
Posted:I tried to find another post like this but failing that......

Ok. Let be honest guys. Downloading illegal music from programs like KaZaA and the late Napster IS stealing.

It is nothing but rotten theft. I have had people i know viciously defending this practise by saying things like (the artist makes the money from touring) and ( the money only goes to the record company anyway)

Well. That doesnt matter in the slightest. If you truly love your music or your favourite band it shouldnt bother you to actually pay them to listen to their music.

I buy at least two albums a week, sometimes more. and i am proud to support whomever i listen to. If you use the legal downloading techniques like Itunes store or other place. thats fine. But please,
if you love your artist. Respect them by buying the music. They deserve it.

</rant>


Fair luna bright, fair luna moon
it shines at night but fades too soon
fair luna moon, fair luna bright
forever we dance
we dance under starlight

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alien_oddity
alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees
Member Since: 31st Dec 2004
Total posts: 7193
Posted:www.djmixtape.net innit wink

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Seb
Seb

Penguin of Mass Destruction and Tricky Bugger to the court of Claire the Askew
Location: Check behind you.
Member Since: 5th May 2005
Total posts: 642
Posted:The whole idea of being able music files is based in the idea of them as the same as a paperweight and not as infinitely copyable sa they are. It's not as if whoever you get the file from, and by extension the musician who originally recorded it, won't still have the music too. Do you steal someone's idea when you read of it in a book you're flicking through?

I download schtuff, it's v. difficult to find music of any spectacular oddity in the culture vaccum I live in, and the local CD place looks to be rather snailish getting stuff in on order.


Chucks nuns
Property of mynci and blu_valley, and proud of it.

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted: Written by: Seb

Do you steal someone's idea when you read of it in a book you're flicking through?





I have no desire to be a writer... confused

shrug


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Seb
Seb

Penguin of Mass Destruction and Tricky Bugger to the court of Claire the Askew
Location: Check behind you.
Member Since: 5th May 2005
Total posts: 642
Posted:I don't mean by claiming it to be something you thought of instead of the author, I mean by having the thought in your head at all.

Chucks nuns
Property of mynci and blu_valley, and proud of it.

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poig
poig

marmite and nutella sandwich
Location: Farnborough, Hampshire
Member Since: 19th Jun 2006
Total posts: 1590
Posted: Written by: simta


 Written by: poig


I don't buy or share with friends, i use limewire. (free and legal, even apparently comes with apple macs)



only legal if the files you are sharing are not copyrighted etc...



But limewire has some music which you won't find in many other places.


THE hop Pyro.
(with parents)
Unowned

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:So its perfectly legal if the files you want are rare?



confused


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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted: Written by: Seb


The whole idea of being able music files is based in the idea of them as the same as a paperweight and not as infinitely copyable sa they are. It's not as if whoever you get the file from, and by extension the musician who originally recorded it, won't still have the music too. Do you steal someone's idea when you read of it in a book you're flicking through?




So, it's ok to steal books because the writer has an original copy?


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:Hey Seb, i was thinking of buying the new "Scaled of Poi" DVD that Meenik made:

http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...5/o/all/fpart/1
br>
Do you think it's ok if I just find someone who already has it, and just copy theirs instead of buying my own?

It's not as if whoever I get the video from, and by extension the Meenik who originally recorded it, won't still have the video too.


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Smelly_Moo
Smelly_Moo

newbie
Location: bideford, devon
Member Since: 29th Jun 2006
Total posts: 16
Posted:basicly, woooo! for stealing music, and seb is right, its not exactly stealing, I had the same problem with the piracy thing on video's, "you wouldn't steal a car...blah, blah, blah"

actualy, its a bad metaphore, as its more like making an exact copy of the car and driving it off. which is not stealing it, just stealing the concept.


-Rory

"The Trick to flying is to throw yourself at the ground and miss" - hitchhikkers guide

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poig
poig

marmite and nutella sandwich
Location: Farnborough, Hampshire
Member Since: 19th Jun 2006
Total posts: 1590
Posted: Written by: UmbiliciformCraterOnFace


So its perfectly legal if the files you want are rare?

confused



Well, no, but how else are you going to get it!
I'd say most of it's legal anyway. The other site i use is www.mp3sugar.com.


THE hop Pyro.
(with parents)
Unowned

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poig
poig

marmite and nutella sandwich
Location: Farnborough, Hampshire
Member Since: 19th Jun 2006
Total posts: 1590
Posted: Written by: Patriarch917


Hey Seb, i was thinking of buying the new "Scaled of Poi" DVD that Meenik made:

http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...5/o/all/fpart/1
br>
Do you think it's ok if I just find someone who already has it, and just copy theirs instead of buying my own?

It's not as if whoever I get the video from, and by extension the Meenik who originally recorded it, won't still have the video too.



If you get it for free, can you let me know where you got it from (it sounds interesting). I just want it for my PSP.


THE hop Pyro.
(with parents)
Unowned

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Meenik
Meenik

enthusiast
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 272
Posted:Interesting thread.

I don't think it would be stealing. Copyright infringement is illegal, and it can be uncool, but it's not stealing. If you copy my DVD, I still have it. You haven't taken anything from me.

If I tell you a joke, can I really tell you not to tell it to somebody else unless you pay me? Can I get some thugs to throw you in a box for it? That would seem ludicrous, right?

That said, I do fear that the next time I go to Thailand, all the poi vendors will be selling pirated copies of my DVD. Ooooh, and that would hurt. Selling somebody else's work is definitely uncool.

...but then, I have copies of pirated music, so could I really complain?

Copyright law was invented, in theory, so that producers of "intellectual property" could make a living from what they do. If people just share my DVD, then I'm out on the streets, thousands of dollars in debt to the bank, and burnt-out from thousands of hours of work for nothing. That would suck, for me and for the people who like my videos, because at this point, if the DVD flops I have to figure out how to put myself through school or something, which means school plus work plus some practice... and that won't leave any time for any more poi art stuff.

...and that's the central issue: If we want writers to write, musicians to make music, coders to make good software... then we should somehow participate in how they make a living. I would be happy to make the DVD available as a series of free downloads, if we could still support me somehow. I really can't do it out of the goodness of my heart. I invested too much, and it would be unfair to me. Heck, the popularity of "Dervishly Yers" ended up costing me almost $2,000 in bandwidth before I got a dedicated server.

My plan is to start building an increasingly meaningful relationship with the people who like the material I put on my website. I figure if that relationship becomes dynamic enough, we can work together to figure out how to fund my video projects. I don't need a lot of money, I just want to make enough to feel safe, ride a bike, eat good food, focus on poi practice, and make good videos that contribute to the art form smile

...big rant, but it was interesting that my DVD came up.

Cheers,

Nick


"They're interdimensional fractal intelligences. That's why they wear funny shoes."

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Neser
Neser

member
Location: North Queensland
Member Since: 27th Dec 2005
Total posts: 63
Posted:I generally download songs to get an idea of them, if I like them or not. If I dont, then I delete them, if I do, then, I'll either buy the single, or the full album of other songs I like (normally 3 songs minimum before I buy the album). Or if there's a song I absolutely cant find, for example, I wanted one song, but in order to get that one song, I was told I had to get the album, so album price plus shipping costed $40. That's a lot for one song; I only want one song, not the album, but I couldnt get that. I was told I had to get the entire album. I even checked various legal downloading sites such as iTunes store, but they didnt have that song I wanted. As a last resort, I went to limewire to get the song. (Even now they dont have the song on iTunes frown )

And what about bands putting their music on free download sites? Record companies dont like this, yet all they want to do is share their music - is that really a crime? (There was an issue with wanting to shut down free download sites)

As for burning - I burn my CDs/DVDs mainly because Im paranoid about losing them, scratching/destroying them or crazy children running through the house using them as frisbrees x_x but I've only ever burnt DVDs which I have bought - so would that be classified as stealing? I own my copy of the DVD now; would it be stealing if I burnt a copy for my own use/not-having-to-worry-about-the-original-being-destroyed?

What about lending a DVD or CD to a friend? Some disagree with this method. I personally think it help promotes it. If the person likes the DVD/CD that much - won't they go out and buy their own copy then?

Also, with the CDs, I tend to have a copy of any CDs I own on my harddrive so I can put them to my iPod. What annoys me is when I buy a CD that cost me $20, I try and copy it - only to find out that I cant/my iPod wont support it. I refuse to pay another $20 or whatever to buy the mp3s off the net for something I already bought. Instead, I'll go onto limewire (which is legal, apparently) - is this classified as stealing? I bought my copy of the CD, am I to be told now that I cant download a copy of the songs so I can put them on my iPod?

I think what is really stealing (this is just my opinion) is when someone either downloads complete DVDs/Albums off the net, burns them then sells them, keeping the profits for themselves. They didnt pay for the original copy, and they're trying to get rich off someone elses work.

One exception with this though, a real life situation. Friends of mine are in a band, and were selling their own made CDs, they run out. A person wants to get a copy, yet still support them. So they bring their own blank CD, and ask them for a copy, agreeing to pay them an amount for their work, however not the full album price because they brought their own CD. I dont see anything wrong with a situation like that.

Btw, I'm not implying anything wink just giving some examples, and my thoughts. smile

~ Neser


Fuel your fascination, burn your desire and dance with flames

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solar_bear
solar_bear

journeyman
Location: Kent, UK
Member Since: 19th Feb 2006
Total posts: 78
Posted: Written by: Seb

Do you steal someone's idea when you read of it in a book you're flicking through?

Of course not, but if you buy a copy of that book, make copies yourself and flog or give them away down the local market, without paying royalties to the publisher and author, then yes - you are stealing.

 Written by: Meenik

Copyright infringement is illegal, and it can be uncool, but it's not stealing. If you copy my DVD, I still have it. You haven't taken anything from me.

Not, but you've stolen the royalties from the owners of the copyright - the people (regardless of how rich they are) who invested millions in making the film and have a reasonable right to expect a return on that investment, without it being eroded by theft.

A band putting their own music up on the web for free is different, because they have given their permission for those tracks to be copied, so no laws are being broken.

If anything, copyright is one legal area where the UK and Europe are tighter than the US. Unlike America, our laws don't recognise the concept of "fair use" - where you make a "back-up copy" to protect the original, or transfer a CD onto a cassette to play in your car.

I agree, the interenet is revolutionising the popular music business. Record companies are becoming obsolete in their current form and are losing control of the market they've been rigging for years. These are exciting times for pop music - control is being taken back by the musicians and the public seem to be more receptive to unusual acts. I mean, I may not much like bands like Anthony & The Johnsons myself, but I think it's fantastic that there's an environment at the moment where that kind of act can get exposure and publicity.

In a way, history is kind of repeating itself here: when the first wax / vinyl recordings started being sold, the sheet music industry (huge at the time) did as much as possible to run them down as "inferior products" - scratchy, poor quality, requiring no skill and removing the joy of making music for yourself.


It may stop, but it never ends.

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Smelly_Moo
Smelly_Moo

newbie
Location: bideford, devon
Member Since: 29th Jun 2006
Total posts: 16
Posted:basicly in the end, its simple.



no one has a problem as long as the people that make the intelectual property get there fair reward. and the law is the way it is to facilitate that.



but when the software / music / dvd / etc producer is a overly rich censored because of it *cough* microsoft *cough*... then I dont think anyone has a problem, as long as not everyone does it (which isn't a problem as atleast businesses need to purchase it legaly)



but when its a small producer of music, and they're trying to make ends meet then its totaly unfair to 'steal' they're potential money. BUT, this doesnt apply if you would never have baught the music / dvd / software... for example I have VERY expensive software, which if I didnt download, I just wouldnt be able to afford, therefore they're not losing anying.


-Rory

"The Trick to flying is to throw yourself at the ground and miss" - hitchhikkers guide

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brenonfire413
brenonfire413

Fire Spinner Exarch
Location: New Orleans, LA United States
Member Since: 22nd Dec 2009
Total posts: 514
Posted:I download a ton of movies, just this last week I've watched GI Joe (sucked), Jennifer's Body (B level horror, entertaining) and finally watched Sin City (awesome!) in addition to most of season 4 of Dexter. The thing is I wouldn't have payed to see them otherwise, so even though I'm stealing, technically, I see it as a very small crime because my choices were to wait until they came out on basic cable or not have seen it at all. I never was going to see them in theaters or buy the DVDs ever so it doesn't make much of a difference. However I saw Zombieland in theaters twice because I loved it so much!

"Are you sure it's safe to drink bleach?"
"Yes, bleach is 90% water, we are 90% water, therefore: we are bleach."
-Nathan Explosion, Metalocalypse

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SpinnerofDetroit
SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA
Member Since: 25th Oct 2009
Total posts: 2280
Posted:I pirate most of my musi from PirateBay, but certainbands that I really like and want to support, I will buy their albums if I can find them. But, what are people that can't affors to buy CD's all the time like me do? I can't just not listen to music! That would be insanity! But that again brings up Brenon's point of "it doesn't matter because I wasn't going to buy it anyway" thing.

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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Fine_Rabid_Dog
Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 10530
Posted:Piracy FTW

The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

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Seaspray
Seaspray

stranger by the day
Location: At the Back of the North Wind
Member Since: 8th Jul 2009
Total posts: 924
Posted:tend to avoid pirating.

It's my firm opinion that's the reason why pc doesn't get as many interesting games


Just a dancer in the dark

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Fine_Rabid_Dog
Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 10530
Posted:Werd. Piracy killed the PC gaming industry. Sad times frown

The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

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SpinnerofDetroit
SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA
Member Since: 25th Oct 2009
Total posts: 2280
Posted:Ah never a fan of playing with a keyboard and mouse anyways tongue2

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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Seaspray
Seaspray

stranger by the day
Location: At the Back of the North Wind
Member Since: 8th Jul 2009
Total posts: 924
Posted:mmm, might be another reason, like how consoles were more powerful when they came in and a more consistent format to program for, but still... seen the finger pointed at piracy more than often enough

Just a dancer in the dark

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aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:I will buy stuff if I can. The problem is that I tend to like such a wide variety of artists and genres, but not everything by them, that to actually get what I like, it becomes quite difficult.

As for games, since I tend not to have a computer that can deal with the new ones, I just get the old ones that I have not played cheaply.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Zephyre Phoenix
Zephyre Phoenix

Familiar stranger giving out popcorn. (formerly Ascilith)
Location: Lawrence, KS
Member Since: 1st Nov 2009
Total posts: 1264
Posted:I buy when I can, otherwise Limewire and things like that. Wherever I can find it

Never take candy from strangers...... But popcorn is okay!

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forrestfire
forrestfire

lonely spinner
Location: Houston, Texas
Member Since: 15th Aug 2009
Total posts: 67
Posted:with me most of the artists i listen to don't care. i talked to one of my favorite dj's about it. he said "nah its all cool shits expensive as long as you play my censored im fine!"

he releases free tracks out to the public all of the time. He just loves the music he makes and he shares it.
Now once his new vinyl comes out im TOTALLY buying it because vinyl is better quality


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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

addict
Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:Originally Posted By: Fine_Rabid_DogWerd. Piracy killed the PC gaming industry. Sad times frown
or what they are doing now is creating games with a single access pin, like MW2, this mens that it has one use only, on one computer. You are not even allowed to do the lawful sharing of this game.

Im gonna be honest, I download music and movies. mainly because I dont have enough money to buy them outright. When I was working I bought everything, and when I work again I will start again.

Right or wrong aside, if you have a choice infront of you of spending $50 on a DVD, or downloading it free in 20 min. its easy to understand why piracy is so prolific


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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SpinnerofDetroit
SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA
Member Since: 25th Oct 2009
Total posts: 2280
Posted:Now that right there is a point that I follow when it comes to piracy. ANd about that code thing on games O_O I never knew they went to something like that, and what does it matter, there are programs with algorithms that make working codes, that get this, YOU PIRATE! XD

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:



quote:qoodlandapple] Originally Posted By: FRDWerd. Piracy killed the PC gaming industry. Sad times [quote]

or what they are doing now is creating games with a single access pin, like MW2, this mens that it has one use only, on one computer. You are not even allowed to do the lawful sharing of this game.

only stops people with a basic knowledge of computers...

copyright was invented so people could make a living off their creations, orriginally (so i hear) it only lasted 15 years, thought being if you didnt get off your arse and make it work in that time, it would be of benefit to society to be shared knowledge. but with the advent of corporations its been dragged way out of proportions to the extent that potentially world changing knowledge in the fields of science is locked up because some company somewhere is waiting for the right time to profit.

the people who make the biggest complaints about music theft are groups like the phonographic performance company of australia and the Recording Industry Association of America, which basically collect royalties for the big recording companies, who obviously are more interested in their own companies profits than the artists they are selling.

this documentary gives quite an interesting slant on the concept of copyright, it can be watched for free on the website (and edited, or reproduced, if you want) and i'd recommend it to everyone reading this thread.


Originally Posted By: brenonfire413However I saw Zombieland in theaters twice because I loved it so much! grin my friend showed me a pirate copy and it was MNSIRDEKFGN brilliant!!!! the screening at the cinemas was too short and i didnt get to see it on bigscreen, i bet it was awesome! one movie i will be buying when its out.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:Well, what is interesting is that (for example) Baen Books give away a fair number of books for free, with no DRM. They are doing ok, especially since most people prefer dead tree copies of things that they like.

(Also, why are e-books so expensive? They have nowhere near the costs of a paper book. Distribution? low. Printing? none. They still have the editing and similar but why are the books not cheaper? If they want to charge nearly the same price, I want to know that they pass on what they have saved by giving the author the deficit.)


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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