Forums > Social Discussion > Glowstringing, Fact or Fiction?

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mixinluv2u
member
Location: chicago suburb, IL
Member Since: 12th Feb 2004
Total posts: 129
Posted:Just curious, how do you guys view glowstringing?

couple questions to focus/start off the discussion:

Is glowstringing and poi one and the same or different? If it's different then how do you define glowstringing and seperate the two?

Do glowstringers have a unique set of moves outside of traditional poi moves?

Should the difference in each tool/medium (glowstring vs sock poi vs fire poi) be emphasized? Or should all of them be spun the same way?

How do you define/develop style and originality in poi? Should the same principles of style and originality be applied to glowstringing? Or can glowstringing have their own principles and methodologies?

Are there differences in cultural background and philosophy between poi and glowstringing?


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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:I think its Ficton...

smile


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mixinluv2u
member
Location: chicago suburb, IL
Member Since: 12th Feb 2004
Total posts: 129
Posted:would you mind going into a bit more detail as to why you think so? you can use the questions listed above as a guide.

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munkypunks
munkypunks

enthusiast, but not enthusiastic
Location: Los Angeles, California
Member Since: 21st Jan 2005
Total posts: 367
Posted:I think UcoF is messing with you.

But I'd be interested in opinions/instructions also. I've been working under the assumption that the same principles apply, and it doesn't work so well.


You can't fall off the floor, but sometimes you need a chair to reach the cookie jar.

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mixinluv2u
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Location: chicago suburb, IL
Member Since: 12th Feb 2004
Total posts: 129
Posted:what kind of problem did you run into when you try to apply the same principles? what are the style/originality principles for poi that you are using?

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Jo
Jo

member
Location: Sheffield, England
Member Since: 13th Dec 2000
Total posts: 517
Posted:My oppinions (extreeeeemly oversimplified... smile )



1. All moves are achievable with any set of poi (assuming non-fire, otherwise there are limitations)



2. The design/weighting/cord of the poi make a HUGE difference in the difficulty and appearance of moves.



3. A lot can be learned by focusing on the advantages of each tool.



4. A lot can be learned by focusing on 'transposing' the more tool-specific moves to other tools.



5. Style is the subconcious expression of the moves you have *really* learned.



6. An individuals style is easier to apply by starting with simpler, less restrictive moves.



7. When spinning a toy, it is worth always knowing the advantages and limitations of it.



Jo. smile

EDITED_BY: Jo (1112822509)


Educate yourself in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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munkypunks
munkypunks

enthusiast, but not enthusiastic
Location: Los Angeles, California
Member Since: 21st Jan 2005
Total posts: 367
Posted:I just attached lights, instead of poi, to my chains and assumed I could do the same stuff. But my lights (okay, granted, they're scuba diving lights, but that's all that was readily available. I have since ordered proper streetlights, which should be at my house today! whoo-hoo!) are much lighter and longer than poi, which throws the balance off. You have to compensate.

I don't know very many glowstringers, but seems it's a different mindset. I only started doing it as an alternative to fire - something that would still look cool that I can do by myself. Only to find out that it's not the same thing. There's always a catch!


You can't fall off the floor, but sometimes you need a chair to reach the cookie jar.

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mixinluv2u
member
Location: chicago suburb, IL
Member Since: 12th Feb 2004
Total posts: 129
Posted:very interesting! thanks for sharing.

most glowstringers use shoelaces instead of chains. chemical glowsticks or homemade LEDsticks (with emptied glowstick casing) are also preferred over hard plastic LED lights (like streetlight or illumix), because they are a lot less likely to shatter on impact.


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:OH JEZUZ WES!

I'm gonna PM you my response... no reason to drag everyone else into this yet...


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:Righto.



So we are bringing this to HoP now? I appologize in advance for any negative feelings or disagreements. wink



Written by:


Is glowstringing and poi one and the same or different? If it's different then how do you define glowstringing and seperate the two?



I feel as someone who focused exclusively and dabbled in glowstringing for about 2 years now and is practicing more poi with fire + socks, that glowstringing is different enough to merit the label. I'm not a big fan of labels and naming everything however - see below.



Written by:


Do glowstringers have a unique set of moves outside of traditional poi moves?



Supposedly yes. Most glowstringers don't focus on "non-poi/non-swinging" glowstringing moves and most people don't make a differentiation. The glowstringer masses practice poi with glowsticks rather than trying something new. Freehand and various gumbies, I hear they can be done with fire? *hint hint



Written by:


Should the difference in each tool/medium (glowstring vs sock poi vs fire poi) be emphasized? Or should all of them be spun the same way?



The difference should be emphasized, but not feared. It takes years to learn and become proficient in a tool and you may never fully master one or the other. For example, newbies should not be spinning fire the way they spin glowsticks, but with enough training, perhaps.



Written by:


How do you define/develop style and originality in poi? Should the same principles of style and originality be applied to glowstringing? Or can glowstringing have their own principles and methodologies?



As poi is a spinning art, they stay with spinning. They learn style by learning how to move while spinning, and how they spin their moves. We, glowstringers have a more open move set than just spinning, including freehanding (I don't believe most HoPers would have seen too much GOOD freehand glowsticking) but that's an object manipulative dance also.



Written by:


Are there differences in cultural background and philosophy between poi and glowstringing?



Some are older hippies and some are newer hippies. Damn ravers/clubbers. wink



I know that many of you will disagree. Glowstringers do some poi and some non-poi. Respectfully, I hope as someone who was born of glowstringing I may show you what I'm talking about someday and that we can just enjoy what we each do.



It'll be interesting to see your opinions. biggrin What we ought to do is see what we can learn from each other. Isn't that what these internet community sites are about? Meeting people, learning, teaching, sharing.


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: mixinluv2u

Just curious, how do you guys view glowstringing?

couple questions to focus/start off the discussion:

Is glowstringing and poi one and the same or different? If it's different then how do you define glowstringing and seperate the two?

...............

Are there differences in cultural background and philosophy between poi and glowstringing?



I would say there's a clear distinction between the two; if only because the first time I saw a glowstring video, it struck me as being very unlike poi.

Then again, there are many distinctions between styles of poi, so it's not a black and white thing.

I'm not particularly up on the glowstringing culture; but I know it does exist, and it does have coherence, so it could be said that it is distinct from poi culture.

But, then again, there's not a single 'poi culture'- some poi culture is tied in with the nightclub/smoker environment, other spinners aren't involved in that. The original Maori poi culture obviously has virtually nothing in common with modern western poi culture.

--------------

I detect in this thread some references to well established debates on this issue in other places (which I've not really followed).

My feelings is that the difference (or not)between poi and glowstringing are nothing to get hostile about.

mixinluv2u- you may be interested in this article I put up some time ago, which addressed hostility between poi spinners and jugglers, and tried to show that it was based on misunderstanding, rather than actual differences: -

http://www.geocities.com/combatunicycle/poi_juggling.html


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:1. music differences: i've seen poi spinners spin to all kinds of crazy stuff, but i've never seen a glowstringer spin to, say, dnb . .

2. wraps. glowstringers do these incessantly

3. speed. poi are slower.


ture na sig

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mixinluv2u
member
Location: chicago suburb, IL
Member Since: 12th Feb 2004
Total posts: 129
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave


I detect in this thread some references to well established debates on this issue in other places (which I've not really followed).



My feelings is that the difference (or not)between poi and glowstringing are nothing to get hostile about.





i agree, nothing to get hostile about. there are no hostility between poi and glowstring communities as a whole. i simply want to get a wider range of opinion so i ask these questions here.



and about the previous debate reference, i rather people not bring that here. i would apperciate it if this is a clean slate without pervious influences. most people here on HoP aren't familiar with what was said before anyway. so we should start from the beginning. =)

EDITED_BY: mixinluv2u (1112837871)


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mixinluv2u
member
Location: chicago suburb, IL
Member Since: 12th Feb 2004
Total posts: 129
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

I would say there's a clear distinction between the two; if only because the first time I saw a glowstring video, it struck me as being very unlike poi.

Then again, there are many distinctions between styles of poi, so it's not a black and white thing.

I'm not particularly up on the glowstringing culture; but I know it does exist, and it does have coherence, so it could be said that it is distinct from poi culture.

But, then again, there's not a single 'poi culture'- some poi culture is tied in with the nightclub/smoker environment, other spinners aren't involved in that. The original Maori poi culture obviously has virtually nothing in common with modern western poi culture.



which glowstring video was the first one you saw? can you pinpoint what it is about it that made it "unlike poi"?

if poi culture is so varied, amongst so many different types of environment. are there any central philosophy or ideals that pretty much everyone follows?


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I said it on GSC and I'll say it here.

I believe that there is more variance within the poi community than between the poi community and the glowstick community.

What I do is closer to what Kael does than what a Maori dancer would do.

There are some firespinners that are very glowsticky. Pozee from the old school. Crazyraverdude, another old old schooler. Most of the videos on this site are not indicative of all of the different styles.

Wes, I believe that HoP is greatly influenced by the LONDON style of poi spinning. Slow technical sock poi tied closely to juggling.

That's VERY different than the major American poi communities which are closely tied with Burningman.

Both of these are MILES away from Maori poi spinning, which is ceremonial.

In order for me to acknowledge that glowsticking is different than poi spinning you're going to have to concede that there are larger differences within the spinning communities in general.

I understand that one of the fundamental philosophies of Glowsticking.com is that glowsticking is independant of "poi". But I think that it's hypocritical for y'all to promote independance without granting us poi spiners autonomy from other sects of poi spinners.

[This conversation crosses over from a heated discussion on GSC... sorry I didn't fill in the blanks for everyone.]

And since you're bringing some of the bad vibe threads from GSC to here... I think go over to GSC and start a thread numerically ranking how hot the girls there are. wink [But seriously, how HOT is that Ravergirl chick?!] biggrin


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:Written by:
think go over to GSC and start a thread numerically ranking how hot the girls there are. wink



*rocks in fear* biggrin



I do agree with NYC in this regard without a doubt. I was bought up using the maori form of poi, very ceremonial and scared. The specific moves represent different meanings. Since then my style has changed since I was only a little tacker and singing "poi e" while swinging two long poi.



London poi DEFINATLY influences the more modern style of poi, and that has directly influenced my style, its more technical and quite often I will have a maori person stop and look at what I am doing and go..."whoa" not cause Im particularly good at poi, just becasue of the huge difference between that style and the one that they are used to.

When they see people like Dev Kev and Bluecat they go into meltdown.



I have seen a lot of glowsticking vids.. I cant name them or give specifics except that one was some type of 'krew' in the U.S



Arsn and I can ALWAYS tell when someone who does a lot of glowsticking picks up a set of poi because their style is very fast, with a huge amount of wraps, and they tend not to move too much, they stay in a very tight spot.. now I am not saying thats ALL stickers ok? that would be me generalising unfairly...



the way i think about it is that prehaps poi'ers drive a manual car and glostickers drive a auto car... the same vehicle but the mechanics are different. smile


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi mixinluv2u



Just curious, how do you guys view glowstringing



I actually started with glowstix then went on to staff, fire chains, juggling and stuff. There should be a few old glowstick threads around HOP, like the giant thread on wraps or the one on the merits of different brands of laces wink I still do strings occasionally, but it takes a lot of practice to get used to the light weight. Sometimes I cheat and use handles or add extra stix. Generally, I just drag out my electro glow poi or clubs and use them.



couple questions to focus/start off the discussion: Is glowstringing and poi one and the same or different? If it's different then how do you define glowstringing and seperate the two?



Same - things on strings. Seems like u want there to be a difference?



Do glowstringers have a unique set of moves outside of traditional poi moves?



U probably need to define traditional poi moves. Like do you mean Maori poi? Because most of the stuff here, well basic stuff anyway, is really Indian club swinging. So without any definitions Ill say different, but not unique.



One reason why I keep suggesting that a lot of poi is similar to clubswinging (in Melbourne anyway) is because initally the only resource people had to learn poi from in Melb was a clubswinging book that was sold by the major Australian juggle props supplier. Also See NYC comment below.



Should the difference in each tool/medium (glowstring vs sock poi vs fire poi) be emphasized? Or should all of them be spun the same way?



Each has advantages, why not use them.



How do you define/develop style and originality in poi?



Most people develop their own style. U need to read some of the dance/footwork vs. tekki threads here to get a deeper understanding of different peoples approach to style.



Should the same principles of style and originality be applied to glowstringing?



Yes they could be, why not? I dont see a big difference b/t poi and glowsticking anyway.



Or can glowstringing have their own principles and methodologies?



It seem some people want there to be a difference, when we are all basically doing the same thing swinging things on strings.



Are there differences in cultural background and philosophy between poi and glowstringing?



Perhaps superficially, but most the same. Like most of the poiers I know are into the psi trance, doof scene where both chains and glow are done. Not sure how much glowsticking gets done in Melbourne clubs.



But hey, you should have seen the new light stick I saw last night. If they make poi like these ones, with all these flashing combos, strobing, spiralling effects etc. then I reckon lots of glow stringers will be trading in their laces for some of these heavy hitting electro poi.







Ummm, NYC Im not sure I agree with you suggestion that Written by:
I believe that HoP is greatly influenced by the LONDON style of poi spinning. Slow technical sock poi tied closely to juggling.

I think there is a London style, but its influence is one of many.



Btw when people talk about the London style are they really meaning Club Swinging style?



smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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chase
chase

Member
Location: Jasper, Alberta
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 43
Posted:I just recently joined Gsc to explore more possibilities with spinning - that and I'm looking to spin then wrap into freehand then back to spinning as part of my fun. I think all influences are valid and I like to think of poi and glowstringing as part of one society with different communities inside it grouphug I respect all forms of dance out there, and respect all forms of spinning out there. In fact, I heard a funny and scary comment the other day (he was serious) - wanting to spin crobars... eek well... we do play with fire...lol.
NYC - I agree, ravergirl sure is awesome.


...it's safe to say that relationships inspired by the art of poi are not necessarily 'poi'fect...!

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:ummm... yeah she's pretty hot NYC.



*cough



*is DATING Ravergirl

XD (She won't mind me posting this methinks)


Non-Https Image Link




Look at that filename! wink



You see, I would LOVE to go to New Zealand and learn the true meaning behind poi. There aren't many examples of Maori poi spinning on the net. Aotearoa! biggrin


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

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Fathom
Fathom

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Location: Online!
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Total posts: 103
Posted:since ive never spun fire do i have to stop posting now? wink

imo, poi is the style of dance not neccicerily whats attactched to your strings. yes what you use limits what moves you can do but the basics are all still there. i would define glowstringing as spinning poi with glowsticks instead of fire or socks or streamers...

the only cultural backround or philosophy i know of is that glowstringing is almost predominatly rave based. thats where i first saw someone perfom poi and it was after almost two years of spinning myself that i even found out that there was such a sophisticated background for it.

anyways im sure there are differences but there mostly superficial so dont fret.

biggrin


Kangaroo Island eh? I hear that place is really hopping!

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onewheeldave
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Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: mixinluv2u




which glowstring video was the first one you saw? can you pinpoint what it is about it that made it "unlike poi"?









It was the 'chicago glowstringers' vids



Specifically 'glowstring - will(12.13.02).wmv'



and



'chicago compilation 2002.wmv



After watching a whole lot of varied poi style, both fire and non-fire, fast and slow, wraps and hyperloop based etc etc; those glowstring vids blew me away- they were (to me) totally different visually, stylistically and in mood, from any poi stuff I'd seen.



I do understand that some people are going to want to maintain that the two types of spinning are in fact the same, arguing that they're based on weighted cords, or based on the same moves.



For me though, I remember how I felt on seeing those first glowstring vids (and I've got to say I've not really followed the scene, or been as blown away by later glowstring vids since then) and I'm always going to feel that glowstringing is an art in it's own category.





"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
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Posted:Written by: Stone


U probably need to define traditional poi moves. Like do you mean Maori poi? Because most of the stuff here, well basic stuff anyway, is really Indian club swinging. So without any definitions Ill say different, but not unique.

One reason why I keep suggesting that a lot of poi is similar to clubswinging (in Melbourne anyway) is because initally the only resource people had to learn poi from in Melb was a clubswinging book that was sold by the major Australian juggle props supplier. Also See NYC comment below.





It's worth pointing out that many poi spinners see clubswinging and poi to be entirely distinct as well.

Me for example (we've discussed this before)- I regard what I do as being unconnected to club swinging.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Jo
Jo

member
Location: Sheffield, England
Member Since: 13th Dec 2000
Total posts: 517
Posted:Dave....



"I'm always going to feel that glowstringing is an art in it's own category"



So, would you regard your thought here as:



a) a catagory like 'spinning'



b) a catagory like 'poi'



c) a catagory like 'firepoi'



d) a catagory like '"London" poi'



just curious because I am of the impression that:



Glowstringing is (d) or (c) depending on definition.



and that it may be unhealthy to aim at a sole source of inspiration.



For example, your poi style (although extremely unique within poi) seems sybiotically related to your meteor 'style' which is a (b) catagory.



Do you find that by looking across all genres - from all the (a)s through to all the (d)s - you could explore your individual preferences more completely?



Do you think your wide range of 'inspiration sources' has assisted the development of your style?



Jo.


Educate yourself in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:nice categories jo - they help make it very clear to me smile



i think glowstringing is a combination of (c) and (d).



i.e. a certain prop has been taken on by a community (the north american club/dance music scene) and a very ditinct style has formed out of it.



c.f. sock poi and london - i doubt tangles or inverted stuff would be nearly as popular as they are around here today if everyone still used tails...



is bounce juggling separate from toss juggling or are they the same discipline?

what about european artistic juggling vs american sport juggling - are they the same thing?



no, they are not the same things for so many reasons, not least of which being that they look completely different (aesthetically speaking).

but yes, they have an overriding common factor (lots of throwing and catching) that means they can be grouped together as different facets of the same discipline.



i guess the next question would be then:



is glowstringing more akin to dance-poi or technical-poi...? tongue



ubblol





cole. x


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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
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Total posts: 3638
Posted:ubblol rolleyes - please.........nooooooo!

Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: coleman

i guess the next question would be then:

is glowstringing more akin to dance-poi or technical-poi...? tongue

cole. x



Don't say the "D" word in front of the glowstickers. Kael tried it and they got very upset. wink

ubblol


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Go Dave, I waz blown-away the first time I saw glowsticking. They were awesome, though same same but different. You have yet to point out one reason why poi spinning is entirely different to club swinging. So I ask, where do you think this London school of poi originate from? Where do moves like the waist wrap, windmill and fountain come from? Perhaps, the British Raj in India.

Maybe it will help if Im more specific. Mr arashi has taken poi beyond poi, but a big early influence for me was a certain Jo in COL 1 or 2. He was doing these really great reels with electro glow type poi. Michal Khan in her poi spinning book acknowledges the influence of club swinging on contemporary poi. And certainly in Australia, Juggleart were selling Ben Richers Club Swinging book as a defacto poi book way before there were any poi book on the market. Plus there are also girls coming into poi that have learnt the basic poi moves from their club training in Callisthenics. So Ill ask again. Where do you think the foundation for poi in the UK originated from?

Come on guys. Glowstringing is a combination of (c) and (d)? This reads as glowstringing is a catagory like 'firepoi' that originated in London. *cough* Like where the London connection? Or the acknowledgment of clubs and meteors in circus and north America ???;)


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Vixen
Vixen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Oxfordshire/Wiltshire
Member Since: 10th Jan 2004
Total posts: 3276
Posted:oooo i love the tune in the chicago glowsticking vid - what is it??? xxx

tHeReS gOoD aNd EvIl iN EaCh InDiViDuAl fIrE, iDeNtIfIeS nEeDs AnD fEeDs OuR dEsIrEs.

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: coleman

nice categories jo - they help make it very clear to me smile




That was totally my idea Jo. CURSE YOU! wink

I'd put glowsticking in category "D". I was just as blown away by seeing the difference in London poi spinning as by glowsticking.

To build of "Jo's" point.... one of my fundamental arguements on GS.C was that I can't put glowsticking OUTSIDE of "B", which is one of the fundamental arguements of the adminstration of the site.

I don't think it's accurate to put glowsticking in one box, and firepoi, london poi, Maori poi, burningman poi in another single box. They're either ALL in seprate boxes, or they're all in the same box.

biggrin


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:Written by: Vixen


oooo i love the tune in the chicago glowsticking vid - what is it??? xxx





A mix of Angel One - Into your Eyes (Dj Dean vs. Dj Deelay Remix), DJ Dean - Play it Hard (DJ @ Work)



hahaha! hahahaha!



You poists said "dance".



ubbloco



*listens intently.


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Ive wondered that...

many, many, many times..

Ive just checked and it doesnt say....

smile


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