Forums > Social Discussion > Glowstringing, Fact or Fiction?

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mixinluv2u
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Location: chicago suburb, IL
Member Since: 12th Feb 2004
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Posted:Just curious, how do you guys view glowstringing?

couple questions to focus/start off the discussion:

Is glowstringing and poi one and the same or different? If it's different then how do you define glowstringing and seperate the two?

Do glowstringers have a unique set of moves outside of traditional poi moves?

Should the difference in each tool/medium (glowstring vs sock poi vs fire poi) be emphasized? Or should all of them be spun the same way?

How do you define/develop style and originality in poi? Should the same principles of style and originality be applied to glowstringing? Or can glowstringing have their own principles and methodologies?

Are there differences in cultural background and philosophy between poi and glowstringing?


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onewheeldave
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Posted:
I think that mixinluv2u is arguing more for the view point that he wants to emphasise the difference between GS and poi- that is different from maintaining that they are totally different things.

To use your sports analogy- soccer and rugby are indeed sub-sets of football; nevertheless a division is maintained i.e. we don't get people arguing that, since they are the same thing, that we should have soccer people and rubgy people playing on the same pitch in the same game. Or that soccer players should train/eat in the same ways as rubgy players.

To take that analogy further- it is possible to play football with a rugby ball (true, it's not round, but with skill it can be kicked)- yet you'll never see it in a match.


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Jo
Jo

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Location: Sheffield, England
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Posted:Wow.



If the same link is cut and pasted, how come the first link goes to the bit of this thread that says:



Dance



and the second time it goes to the



Hop Community! biggrin biggrin



that is very weird, I see it as a sign that says 'all gs.c people are most welcome to come and chat with the hop community' smile



Jo. hug

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Jo
Jo

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Posted:OWD,



to that I say, fittness training, and diet, and attitude, are necessary for all forms of football...



...and there is no 1 correct excercise, diet, or attitude 'reigime'.



Jo.

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Spanner
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Posted:mixinluv2u: did you begin this thread in to acquire some kind of "blessing" from poi spinners for the differentiation you aiming for? I know you've said most, if not all questions can be answered by reading back through this thread, but since you and CynicDave have both happened to leave the discussion specifically after reading a post which could be perceived as such an approval, there's only one conclusion I arrive at by doing so. Is this the case?

I've been watching this thread since I last posted but since Jo was banned from Glowsticking.com (for something that was written here and which I felt was only termed "offensive" through convenience) I refrained from posting further because I felt debating with someone who would take such a immature action would result in time wasted. I trust this has become irrelevant by now though.

I see no reason why glowstringers shouldn't emphasize the difference between it's fellow subsets of poi, but despite the length of this discussion, I still don't think it's independent and I highly doubt it ever will be.

To have such a division, or to create the impression that one exists, would encourage glowstringers but at the cost of discouraging those who choose to spin the remainder of poi, thinking "this can't be done with poi". Luckily, I see a lot of people willing to take up the challenge of achieving glowstringing moves with other subsets of poi and vice versa.

Aside from all this, I agree that the culture or opinion of Home Of Poi or Glowsticking.com opinion (if indeed they are collective on either side) cannot necessarily be extrapolated to the wider community. Not that I think they necessarily should be, but I certainly don't think they ever will be if we insist on limiting not only what is poi, but our communications regarding it...


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:OWD, its only an analogy. It was used to point out similarities ie. wicks and glowsticks are both a form of poi. I dont want to take it to a round ball / glow vs oval ball / wick debate. I watched a heap of great glowstick videos now, and while there are cultural and style differences, if I pick up some glowsticks, learn some new tricks and go stringing :



poi is poi bounce poi



smile

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If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Jo
Jo

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Posted:Off topic this but I would like to just *squeeze* it in here since (hopefuly) this issue will slide a little...

My name has been smeared a lot on gs.c and my motives questioned more than once...

but ONLY because I was 'smearing' too - so I hold no grudges at all about that. However...

I threw everything *EVERYTHING* I had into trying to make a difference at glowsticking.com

because I love all of the spinning communities. It is that simple, honestly.

I had no sleep whatsoever for over 2 days during this discussion. And I hope that -alone- illustrates my point enough to clear my name (to an extent) with gs.c and the glowsticking communities.

peace out.

Jo.


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onewheeldave
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Posted:I'd like to say at this point that all my replies have been soley in regard to the actual issue of whether GS is or isn't a sub-set of poi.

I realise that underlying that question are some complex politics, agendas etc; but I'm not particularly up on those, nor are they the kinds of things I'm emotionally suited to engaging with.

So, despite being aware that there is a considerable political aspect to some of the opinions expressed in this thread, none of the views I've expressed are meant to refer to those aspects.

Apologies to anyone who feels let down, or feels that I've played into anyones hands.


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Jo
Jo

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Posted:edit (unintentional pun) I don't feel let down Dave if you mean me when you say 'anyone'



balance is good.



Jo.

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Spanner
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Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

Apologies to anyone who feels let down, or feels that I've played into anyones hands.



I don't feel that way - as always, your focus on the actual subject rather than the politics which may be associated with it, is never a let down to me smile


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Cynicdave1
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Posted:to everyone: who gets to use the term "poi" and use it for all swinging, even though most people agree poi is a maori word?



specifically, i consider poi a cultural word with specific definition-set describing a certain culture of art that originated in the asian/australian/pacific area.



obviously, this is a modern phenomenon, since debates such as these has raged since glowsticking.com's inception, i have to ask.. who specificallly decided to use the term "poi" to describe all stringed activies some not derived from the original, traditional, poi?



so the real question is the question of legitamacy. we obviously have very big communities, the both of us, so who gets to decide?



is tomato: toe-may-toe or toe-mah-toe?



is it color or colour?



is it gray or grey?



is it theater or theatre?



is it President or Prime Minister



is it Britney or Kylie



Do you drive on the right side of the road or left side of the road?






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Jo
Jo

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Posted:As far as I'm concerned, Dave (and I think I'm speaking for most here)...



you are welcome to call it glowstringing AS LONG AS we can call it poi.



the end?



Jo.


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onewheeldave
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Posted:Seems we've got a group of people who consider GS to have sufficient differences to poi to warrant it being considered a seperate art, and another group who believe that it should instead be considered a style, or sub-set of poi.

After this thread, and a lot of thought on the issue; I can see merits in both points of view.

To me, GS lies either on, or very close to, the border of that which we know as 'poi'- it's a gray area- some will see it as within the border, others will see it as without.

I like Jo's proposal- if one group really wants to consider it as seperate, and another as the same, then why not just let it go, with, as Jo says, the understanding that the opposite group has a right to call it something different.


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Stone
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Posted:Kylie ubblove



Cynicdave1 said Written by:
who gets to use the term "poi" and use it for all swinging, even though most people agree poi is a maori word? who specifically decided to use the term "poi" to describe all stringed activies some not derived from the original, traditional, poi





Good question. I dont know who originated it, but it has become widely accepted by the general public. So I say the public.



For example, Im doing tailed poi at a remote agricultural show in the country Oz somewhere, and people come up and say oh I like you poi poi or I saw poi like that when I was in NZ. etcetc. This has happend a lot. Many people, outside these communities, identify spinning things on strings as poi. I would suggest even more so than fire poi.



Cynicdave1, the history of why driving on the left hand side of the road, is the right side of the road to drive on, is so knights could draw their swords and hold them in their right hand to face the enemy.



Jo hughughug



OneWheelDave, according to your rationale if someone purchased some plastic electoglow clubs and incorporated some contact rolls plus some liquid type moves into a flowing routine then they wouldnt be juggling.





Britney ubblove


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
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Posted:Written by: Stone

OneWheelDave, according to your rationale if someone purchased some plastic electoglow clubs and incorporated some contact rolls plus some liquid type moves into a flowing routine then they wouldnt be juggling.




Just out of interest, what do you consider my rationale to be?

I've said quite a few things on this thread, and you're obviously commenting on some aspect of what you've interpreted my view to be.

I'm not entirely sure what you see my viewpoint to be, can you clarify?


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"Last of The Lancers"
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Stone
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Posted:This one OWD:

Written by:
"So is it fair to say that the reason you want to emphasise the difference between glowstringing and poi, is to encourage glowstringers to develop and innovate a style that fully exploits the characteristics that set glowstring equipment apart from poi equipment (eg lightness)? In conjunction with a belief that constraints (in terms of moves used etc), far from diminishing the style, will actually progress it."



Plus others that I havent got time to dig out now. Must rush.

Apply that to glow v fire clubs, and to me its like saying someone juggling three fire clubs is different to someone juggling five electro clubs, especially that someone incorporates some liquid or strobing or whatever into their routine.

But the really, really BIG question is, is it dance?

wink

There are no strings


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
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Posted:That quote is me feeding back to someone my interpretation of their viewpoint.

I do, to a large extent, go along with that view, though, as my later posts mention, I can also see the other side as well.

If someone (like Jo) wants to define poi as anything that involves spinning weighted cords, then, from their viewpoint, GS is simply a style of poi.

Then again, someone from GS may consider that GS-ing has sufficient differences for them to want to distinguish it as more than just another style of poi.

Maybe one way to look at it is to reflect that, in the west, we pretty much have one word to cover 'snow'- we don't need more because we don't get much snow.

An eskimo could have forty words to describe different types of snow- he/she needs that because snow is a major part of their world, and understanding it to that fine degree is a matter of survival.

Maybe a poi-er looks at GS and just sees poi done with different tools- maybe a GS-er looks at it and sees it as entirely distinct from poi.

It's just two ways of seeing, IMO, both totally valid.

So, that's my current viewpoint- those who want to call it all poi are OK, those who want to call it GS-ing are also OK.

I guess what I object to is those who, for what reasons I do not know, insist on it being one or the other, and calling the other side 'deluded'.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


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onewheeldave
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Posted:Written by: Stone




Apply that to glow v fire clubs, and to me its like saying someone juggling three fire clubs is different to someone juggling five electro clubs, especially that someone incorporates some liquid or strobing or whatever into their routine.











Glo-club juggling and fire club juggling. Club juggling with different props. We call it all juggling.



Then again we have 'contact juggling'- it's got juggling in the name even though it's nothing like juggling.



We have 'club passing'- it's not got juggling in the name, and it is fairly distinct from juggling, in that, by necessity, it requires more than one person, and, when I do it, it has more of a feel of interacting than juggling.



The point is, much as we try to pin down and make exact and watertight our descriptions of these skills- at the end of the day there will always be gray areas and inexactitudes.



I'm not a glowstringer; most of us here on HOP aren't. GS.com is a long standing and successful online community- it's easy to bung something up on the internet; not so easy to keep it going, and growing, through the years and the inevitable set-backs.



If members of that community who do glowstring, and who know far more than us about the techniques and feel of GS, and the community aspects of GS; feel the need to distinguish GS from poi, then so be it.



What is this arrogance that some members of the poi community feel the need to say to the GS-ers 'you are wrong; you are doing exactly the stuff that we are'.



Isn't that like us going to the eskimos and saying 'OK, you call snow 40 different names, but it's bullsh*t, snow is snow'.


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ben_in_a_spin
ben_in_a_spin

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Posted:Written by:
What is this arrogance that some members of the poi community feel the need to say to the GS-ers 'you are wrong; you are doing exactly the stuff that we are'.



hurrah. given that this has been a free-for-all, i'll add my little .02: soapbox what really riles people is being defined by other people's terms. pages ago someone complained about being told they were glowsticking when, as far as they knew, they were doing poi. they did not enjoy being informed, politely or otherwise, by someone else, that what they were doing IS THIS, or IS THAT.

it is clear that some glowstickers are being told they are nothing but poi spinners with delusions of grandeur. why would anyone want to tell this to someone who clearly doesn't want to hear it? spin and let spin (or 'swing' if you like), surely? peace

i'm not sure what the intention of calling glowsticking a subset of poi is, but in effect, it comes across as an attempt by an older, pre-established community to belittle a newer, possibly smaller, one. 'you can't have a new name, you're doing nothing new! i don't see what's so special about all these glowstickers! they're just doing what we do, after all.' well no, it's fairly obvious from just watching a single glowstringing video that 'they' are not just doing what 'we' do, and i don't know why certain spinners have seen the move away from poi as a deep attack on the art.

Written by:
the understanding that the opposite group has a right to call it something different

is one way of dealing with it. another would be for the 'opposite group' to back off, and avoid future confrontation by letting glowstringers escape the feeling that they have some deep roots in poi, or that they are a little off-shoot of a much larger, more important plant.

if you grant glowsticking legitimacy on its own terms, who is hurt? the communities are already fairly distanced, if the web is anything to go by. poi is not under threat hug. you are not in danger hug. stop being reactionary and the two communities can grow in whatever direction they choose, and learn from one another, and in five years, we'll see what the scenes look like. if this antagonism continues, it could easily drive an avoidable wedge between the two households. imho it would be... polite... to allow a group to define itself.
as a newbie, i guess i'm out of credit... smile


please help keep the world clean - others may wish to use it

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Stone
Stream Entrant
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Posted:Dave, Im almost Past Caring



But come on what arrogance and by whom?



I dont know why u assume that people who visit HOP dont use glowsticks. Many have in the past, and hopefully more will in the future. I have a least ten different types of poi, including short poi and a couple of bags of glowsticks. So, poi to me is like snow to the eskimos. I bet plenty of people here have lots of glow and fire toys.



Dave imo saying somethink like That quote is me feeding back to someone my interpretation of their viewpoint. is rationale.



And if you see glo-club juggling and fire club juggling as juggling with different props. Then thats the same as I see doing poi with different props. There are however big differences in culture and style, as acknowledged.



Certainly since this discussion, I can see subtle differences b/t doing current moves with glowsticks compared to glowsticking (with strings?) what Id call stinging. One thing that seems to have changed is the amalgamation of freehand with strings. Good idea, though I wonder if at one time there was a seperatist policy. Like Ive heard skool liquid dancers suggest that freehand glowstickers werent doing real liquid an so on. Obviously, things have moved on a bit since Ive been out, but if I was Id practice stinging moves.



I hope my opinion doesnt sound arrogant, it's not ment to be.



Ben-in-a-spin This has not been a free-for-all, and no one is putting down glowstickers, ok smile



cheers grouphug





If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
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Posted:While some HOP-ers may use glowstick poi, that doesn't make them glowstringers. 'Glowsting-ing', in the sense meant by GS.com isn't doing standard poi moves with glowstick poi.

I like Ben-in-a-spins post, it expresses very well, the viewpoint of those who do find some of the attitudes concerning GS a bit riling.

As this thread seems to be reaching its end, I'll add this: -

Often, it's not the content of what's being said that causes controversy, argument or offense; it's the way it's said and the tone in which it's said.

To say 'IMO, glowstringing is a form of poi spinning'; is unlikely to offend, or push anyones buttons.

To say 'glowstringing is just a style of poi' is saying something extra- 'glowstringing is just a style of poi'.

Sticking in 'just' is a common way of slipping a tone of contempt into what seems initially to be an objective/non-judgemental statement.

To say 'You glowstringers are idiots if you think what you're doing is not poi' is going all out to provoke.


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UCOF
UCOF

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Posted:"While some HOP-ers may use glowstick poi, that doesn't make them glowstringers."

smile


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Stone
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Posted:i could say many things, but all Ill say is this.



why is does it seem like so many people are intent on dividing two rich communities that have so much in common?



answer me this, and Ill stop stoking me chin wink





meditate


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Spanner
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Posted:Written by: Unfortunatly Can Obtain Fruit

"While some HOP-ers may use glowstick poi, that doesn't make them glowstringers."




I'd also say that while some glowstring, that doesn't make them glowstringers: it's the prerogative of the individual, which is why I've omitted mention of either online-based community smile


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yay,

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
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Posted:I cant believe this has gone on for twelve pages.

i've read alot and skimmed all of em.

honeslty was all this sophistry really necesary? I dont think so.

Im not interested enough in either poi, stringing or argueing so get myself steeped in this. I do find it rather depressing sometimes though when a potentially interesting discussion desends into the madness of sematics like this.

I dont think i've learned anything from this thread.

do yourselves a favour folks. go out in the sun and spin

my personal take on this is the same as it is for alot of things

you roots are important. sharing is important. learning and teaching are important.

im a staffer, but if i could be a baton twirler too, i would. except for the costume wink

Or is it the costume that makes them baton twirlers. ha ha, now im doing it too, must be the HOP in me.

best of luck to all you object manipulators

a


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coleman
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Posted:the opinion of the general public



the bit about poi (not the slop stuff) says:



Written by: answers.com
The Māori word "poi" means "ball." More specifically, this refers to a form of juggling with balls on ropes, held in the hands and swung in various circular patterns, similar to club-twirling. This was traditionally practiced by women an exercise to increase flexibility of the wrists and hands, and by men to increase strength in the arms and coordination. It developed into a traditional performance art practiced mostly by women.



Today, poi swinging is seeing much wider popularity. Poi swingers use everything from rolled-up socks to expensive devices with light-emitting diodes and combine swinging with body moves. This is fire dancing when the poi are made of wicks and set on fire.





so it seems after all this 'debate' that swinging glowsticks is indeed a poi discipline and 'fire dancing' is in reality the separate, uniquely defineable skill shrug





finally (for me) this quote made me realise that i am and hopefully will never be a glowsticker - i would not be proud to be a part of a community that can 'have a lot of fun' when stuff like this is going on:



Written by: Cynicdave1


we have seen battles gone wrong. i have seen people getting stabbed at raves, people fighting over girls, etc. We at the same time have had a lot of fun together





frown





cole. x


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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
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coleman
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Posted:this thread is so big now most of the last three pages have been retreading what was said in the first 7 pages (which had a lot of saying the same thing too).



from this page:



Written by: Unfortunatly Can Obtain Fruit


"While some HOP-ers may use glowstick poi, that doesn't make them glowstringers."







Written by: Spanner


I'd also say that while some glowstring, that doesn't make them glowstringers: it's the prerogative of the individual, which is why I've omitted mention of either online-based community smile





form the first 5 pages:





Written by: coleman


i span glowsticks on strings before i knew sh!t about the american scene.



was i glowsticking then without my knowledge, or was i just simply poi-ing with glowsticks...?



i.e. why does glowsticking get set aside from all the other poi tools - why is it not glowstick poi-ing?





Written by: Adrillf


And yes when you did use glowsticks, you were glowsticking. You may have not known the name for it or what you were doing, but you were still glowsticking. For me it is not the moves that get the different name, because moves are interchangable from one medium to another, for me it is the object that you are spinning the calls for another name.





Written by: Cynicdave1


it's what you DO with the tool that set things apart. If you play basketball with a soccerball, you are playing basketball. If you are juggling chainsaws, you aren't ... chopping down trees, but juggling.





Written by: coleman


so if i am poi-ing with glowsticks, am i poi-ing or glowsticking...?



by your examples above and your point that "it is not the tool but what you are doing with it", i would be poi-ing with glowsticks.



if you can describe to me how it is possible to glowstick with poi, i will be totally convinced that glowsticking is an art separate from poi but as it stands, i cannot.





no-one ever addressed that last point by the way...







cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Spanner
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Posted:Written by: coleman

this thread is so big now most of the last three pages have been retreading what was said in the first 7 pages (which had a lot of saying the same thing too).




I do see what you mean but regarding what you quoted from me, I still felt that it was important to emphasize that this isn't a "HoP versus Glowsticking.com" issue. Happening to register with one site rather than the other first hasn't got a lot to do with the debate, that's all.

And it may seem like the same themes are being repeated, but the good thing about HoP is that everyone's allowed their say - not just those who get in there first wink It doesn't necessarily have to be a new point, but can be simply to show support of one opinion and I see no harm in that smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Jo

As far as I'm concerned, Dave (and I think I speak for most here)...

you are welcome to call it glowstringing AS LONG AS we can call it poi.

the end?

Jo.



I disagree. biggrin

I think he's welcome no matter what his beliefs are.

We don't dictate philosophy here. We never have. I see no reason to start now.

ubbangel


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:okay spanner - thought your point was more general than the online community angle.

i just thought it was interesting to point out the very grey area here is that no-one seems to agree what the central defining issue for glowstringing is at all: the tool, the activity or the style of the activity.

for 'glowstringing' to be a verb that involves more than just a difference in the prop used to practice it, it must have definable characteristrics that set it apart from poi.

i have tried to emphasise the fact that that glowstickers claim that poi moves spun with glowsticks can be labelled 'glowstringing', yet no-one can explain how to glowstring with poi.
nyc's new thread may adress this but i sincerely doubt it.

i think i'm back to square one: what the hell *is* glowstringing if its not poi?


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:I'm up for the style of activity description,,lots of wraps but I just can't get my head around the not turning style. Guess I'm a poist at heart.

I'm not fussed if the glowstringers want to do the distinct society thing, let them, I mean 12 pages ago I didn't even know they existed.

But this discussion has turned me into a "spinning empty 2oz.paint bottles on the ends of shoelaces with designs of figuring out wrap combos" kinda guy.


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