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Forums > Social Discussion > Glowstringing, Fact or Fiction?

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mixinluv2u
member
Location: chicago suburb, IL
Member Since: 12th Feb 2004
Total posts: 129
Posted:Just curious, how do you guys view glowstringing?

couple questions to focus/start off the discussion:

Is glowstringing and poi one and the same or different? If it's different then how do you define glowstringing and seperate the two?

Do glowstringers have a unique set of moves outside of traditional poi moves?

Should the difference in each tool/medium (glowstring vs sock poi vs fire poi) be emphasized? Or should all of them be spun the same way?

How do you define/develop style and originality in poi? Should the same principles of style and originality be applied to glowstringing? Or can glowstringing have their own principles and methodologies?

Are there differences in cultural background and philosophy between poi and glowstringing?


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:

What I posted was in reply to-

Written by: spherculist


Poi in britain came from the rave culture too you know,



which struck me very forcibly as nothing more than a totally unsubstantiated opinion, so I posted my opinion in a similar (unsubstantiated) form-

Written by: onewheeldave


No it didn't.



I expect poi in Britain came from, and developed from, a number of different sources, including people who'd travelled and picked it up elsewhere, internet resources (HOP).

Some believe that poi was given to all the world as a gift by the 'poi spirits', as a point of interest, I believe it can be argued that there is actually some evidence for that viewpoint.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that that is the case, just that there is evidence for it.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:so who introduced glow stringing to the ravers then?

chicken and egg guys....


Love is the law.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:i learnt the basics of poi before i'd ever heard of juggling workshops.

i learnt from people that i went clubbing with.

most of my spinning was done either in a garden or in a club.

and the only workshop i ever visited was a workshop run for and by spinners - not jugglers.



i missed out on the drome.

it was a squat.

that was used, among other things, for parties.

'other things' included a juggling workshop.



so i'm not saying that the people i learnt from didn't go to juggling workshops and learn there.

but i didn't pick up poi from the juggling community, nor was i a part of its culture until i learnt to juggle.

i got into and progressed in poi at outdoor parties and in clubs during winter.



my poi *did* come from and grow out of 'the rave culture' i was immersed in at the time.



i too think poi in britain had many influences and for me, the london party scene was central to these influences - why would people have gone all-out to find super uv sock material if the culture was based primarily in daytime/evening juggling workshops?



parties are the real world 'home of poi' to me smile





cole. x



[edit: sounds like i'm arguing against someone's opinion here - i'm not, i'm just sorting out where i think the various elements of what i know were learnt.

before this discussion, i had forgotten how much poi i learnt away from workshops - it was most of it.

my technical understanding of poi improved by coming here and meeting old school spinners at workshops and meets.

but i was taught most of the important stuff by people i partied and chilled out with, in our homes.]

EDITED_BY: coleman (1113903171)


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:That's fair enough Coleman- you've pointed out that you learnt via 'rave culture' whilst not claiming that so did everyone else.

It's no surprise to me that you didn't learn poi from juggling circles as, in the years we're talking about, there was a fair bit of prejudice against poi in juggling circles.

For the record, I definitly didn't learn poi at 'raves' or clubs- for me it was a combination of interent resources, learning from friends, and personal innovation.

Admittedly, some of those friends were involved in the club scene; nevertheless, I'll maintain that it was a minor influnce, on the grounds that they were also innovating.

IMO poi developed here primarily due to innovators, some of whom had substantial rave/club influences.

And, IMO, it's no coincidence that the huge boost in poi technology occured with the rise of the interenet- I'm confident that if the internet hadn't happened, poi would be much rarer.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:Here's the conclusion about glowsticking / stringing from gsc

Written by:
In conclusion...
In all glowsticking has a fundamentally different outlook to its art than do other dances. We are defined by our roots in the rave culture, and thus our philosophies about style and dancing are different from other arts. That does not mean, of course, we are stuck in the rave culture, and to even define the rave culture as such is sort of a misnomer, as it is different in every nation, in every region, and even in the same city. As the music and the dance evolves, so will glowsticking and glowstickers.

We simply ask that everyone have an open mind. Thank you for respecing our culture and taking the time to read through all of this.



All of that definitely applies to poi as i've seen it grow in britain.

1999 ~ The Warp Experience, The Drome, London

I bet that 90% of spinners in the south of england could trace their poi ancestry back to that time and place or one of the many off shoots like Synergy, ID Spiral, Liquid Connective and so on. A hell of a lot of those people travel all over the place, thailand, india, austrailia ~ sure they bought back knowledge from all those places but i think that london around the turn of the millenium was a melting pot of new inovations which i'm very glad to have been a part of.

The London Rave scene has for many years been number one showcase for the most badass spinners around. I mean come on. Never heard anyone talk about badass London Style Spinners before? Hell, that's where Nick and Ally's infamous Orange poi come from.

Now obviously anything I say is my opinion only, perhaps dave you feel like you have some omnipotent opinion on these matters, just feel free to add an IMO anywhere you like.

So you personally didn't go to raves and learn poi from them. I think you're very much in the minority.

I went to glastonbury 2002, 2003, 2004. In 2002 there was a handful of people spinning poi, in 2003 there were a lot of people spinning, in 2004 there were only a handful of people not spinning poi up at the stone circle. It was a massive explosion which i'm certain was fueled by free parties. The number of people who have seen me spin at parties and festivals and then told me they wanna learn is enormous.

Anywho, my main point was that the glowstringers seemed to feel that glowstringing exclusively came out of rave culture and somehow it was more about the 'dance' than contemporary poi. Maybe i mis interpreted it but IMO that is BS and could be said about the london poi scene as well.

Or maybe i'm just a glostringer at heart. I certainly don't spin like a maori woman, So why call it poi?

In conclusion. I don't think a distinction can be drawn between poi and glostringing, they are subtley different but they are still both sphercular forms.

laters


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: spherculist


Now obviously anything I say is my opinion only, perhaps dave you feel like you have some omnipotent opinion on these matters, just feel free to add an IMO anywhere you like.




With respect; I do stick a good few IMO's in my posts; I'm under the impression that it's you who tends not to.

In particular, as I previously mentioned-

Written by: spherculist

Poi in britain came from the rave culture too you know,





was, IMO, somewhat presumptious, unsubstantiated (at the time anyway; your recent post is a worthwhile attempt at giving grounds) and was presented more as straight fact than your opinion.











Written by: spherculist


The London Rave scene has for many years been number one showcase for the most badass spinners around. I mean come on. Never heard anyone talk about badass London Style Spinners before? Hell, that's where Nick and Ally's infamous Orange poi come from.







In all honesty, yes, I have never heard of the 'badass london style spinners' or of nick and ally's infamous orange poi.

Nevertheless, I do a lot of poi, and don't feel any loss from not having encountered these marvels smile










Written by: spherculist

I went to glastonbury 2002, 2003, 2004. In 2002 there was a handful of people spinning poi, in 2003 there were a lot of people spinning, in 2004 there were only a handful of people not spinning poi up at the stone circle. It was a massive explosion which i'm certain was fueled by free parties. The number of people who have seen me spin at parties and festivals and then told me they wanna learn is enormous.






I'm sure the rave side was a factor, I just consider it to be far from the main one.

Those who go to raves a lot will, I'm sure, tend to see a lot of poi there. Those of us who never went to raves, also saw a lot of poi in other (non-rave) places.

IMO, if the rave/club scene had never been, poi would be around today; whereas if the internet had never been, I suspect it wouldn't.

I'd say that the internet is more responsible for the growth of poi than the rave scene.

Written by: spherculist
The number of people who have seen me spin at parties and festivals and then told me they wanna learn is enormous.




Similarly, a lot of people say the same to me when I spin in non-rave environments such as parks, juggling clubs etc- it's more of a people-seeing-something-good and-wanting-to-learn-it thing; and yes, some of them will happen to be at raves at the time; equally, others won't. People like you will encounter the ones at raves, people like me will encounter them elsewhere.

I suspect that there's an element of some people in the rave scene who spin, being a bit blinkered and possibly possessive here.

ie they spend a lot of times at raves, and little time at non-rave spinning events, or the non-rave spinning events they do go to tend to be frequented by ravers etc.

So they come to equate poi with raving.

Then maybe some also feel the need to 'possess' poi, and claim it as part of their rave culture.

In a similar vien we had, in the past, threads addressing the overriding missconception that poi were inextricably bound with drug use, due to the perception that most spinners used drugs.

Those threads cleared up that misconception and established that many spinners do not use drugs. It seems obvious now, but at the time the misconception was rife.

Similarly, if we make an effort, with maybe a poll, or maybe just with this thread, IMO we'll find that many people spin who do not associate it with rave.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave


I suspect that there's an element of some people in the rave scene who spin, being a bit blinkered and possibly possessive here.



ie they spend a lot of times at raves, and little time at non-rave spinning events, or the non-rave spinning events they do go to tend to be frequented by ravers etc.



So they come to equate poi with raving.



Then maybe some also feel the need to 'possess' poi, and claim it as part of their rave culture.







i think that's a major point and it is exactly what many of us (at least myself, nyc and spherculist i think i can speak for here) believe the glowstringer section of spinners has done, over at gsc and in general.



possession of the activity/culture is what this thread is all about, no?



and trust me dave - you have definitely lost out on not spinning nick and ali poi wink

in all seriousness though, i still stand by the fact that they are the original and best ever examples of 'sock poi'.





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:No, I believe as one of the glowstringers over at gs.c and as a poist of HoP that the "possession" of the activity and culture is not what it's about.

We're not claiming we 'possess' or 'own' glowstringing, and that no one else is entitled to it or the nomer. Yes, we are pushing for a different sort of dance. The label is what counts.

Are there that many good examples of the differences? No. Not yet.

But are we trying to differenciate and push further? Yes.

It's not our place to say who 'owns' it as indeed, who knows who the first person to swing glowsticks on strings was? Maybe some drugged out faded raver wink

But I can speak as one who got into glowstringing/poi without being a raver that the label distinction is helpful in pushing either one further. Otherwise I'm limited in my respected fields.

Dave, I totally agree that if it weren't for the internet, none of thise would be possible. Innovations in California, Illinois, Texas, New York are spreading all across the US and further through sites like gs.c. Much like ideas are coming around the world through HoP.

But then again - taking a step back to look at the all encompassing universe and I feel quite insignificant.
*goes back to his dancing smile


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

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chase
chase

Member
Location: Jasper, Alberta
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 43
Posted:I wonder how long it will be (or maybe if its been done) until someone glowstrings in one hand and spins poi with the other biggrin hehe, a bunch of wraps from one hand and large flowing circles from the other - just as a simple example of course smile

I can personally see the distinction between poi and glowstringing - from the emphasis on moves to culture; but then that is a simplified generalization. I know it has been said, but each catagory is what you make of it. Of course, from my experience, spinning poi in a park during the day receives (generally) a more welcome response then glowstringing with dead glowsticks. But that also has to do with a few people's negative view of raves and their association of glowsticks with raves. Of course, here in North America (and I'm genralizing again) I get weird looks for dancing in public, and even out at the pop night clubs - dancing is seen as for girls while guys act all cool and macho. I've been told it is not the same in Europe. Well, I'll find out in the fall...Euro trip...weeeeee. bounce


...it's safe to say that relationships inspired by the art of poi are not necessarily 'poi'fect...!

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:sorry kael - i think the word possession had very negative connotations which i did not mean to imply.



removing 'possession' from dave's quote, it expresses for me what i think has led to gs being regarded as separate from any other style of poi spinning:



Written by: onewheeldave


I suspect that there's an element of some people in the rave scene who spin, being a bit blinkered.



i.e. they spend a lot of times at raves, and little time at non-rave spinning events, or the non-rave spinning events they do go to tend to be frequented by ravers etc.



So they come to equate poi with raving.







this is true of many spinners in both britain and america.



but the american raver community was limited to a partiular setup (glowsticks on strings) and was so separated from any other poi communities, that they chose to name what they do 'glowstringing'.





what i meant by 'possession' is thinking that the style of spinning you do is so unique that it is seen fit to rename the activity.



this is all just my opinion - i'm expressing it so others understand how i see all this.

i am not arguing against the differentiation here, nor am i trying to prove that it is wrong.







cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:No offense taken, cole.

Different cultures will see things differently, that is a given.

I don't want to argue either. I just like to dance, learn, and teach. But I will stand up for my fellow community. wink

I'm sure we can continue to share and learn as well as maintain our own separate and unique cultures. smile

<-crazy yank


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks guys. I think its like OWD said about there being lots of different influences. Though Im with rev, and Im wondering what was going on earlier, back in the 70/80s.

Its really been a fire staff - dance culture in oz, and poi was rare up until 02/03. The growth of poi follwed a similar time line to spherculists Glastonbury experiences. Which supports the internet theory.

Although, I'm sure much of that internet growth was due to people seeing poi at parties, festivals, raves etc. and wanting to find out more about poi. I originally found HOP from a doof site, and I think both tightly linked, despite peoples attempts to distance themselves from the rave scene.

The one thing that stands out as being different with glowsticking, is the incorporation of freestyle.


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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ShawnF
member
Location: Springfield, MA - USA
Member Since: 16th Dec 2000
Total posts: 162
Posted:Ok, I must be crazy in that I read all 17 pages in one day! eek

I probably should let it go, but I really feel like I have to comment, especially with someone early on talking about someone from "yoyo.com" coming in to comment. They meant it as a joke, but I came into poi through yo-yos, and one of the biggest forums in the yo-yo community is yoyoing.com. So I just have to make the prophecy come true.. wink

I've been kind of sporadic in checking into the poi scene in recent years. I'm actually kind of surprised that my BTB weave description has stayed up all these years. I could barely even do it back when I wrote that.. wink I was a bit more active around when the hyperloops and such started to show up. I remember there was this awesome poi gathering in Vermont that I went to with Pele and Peregrine and others and I took the "inclusive" tact of trying to mention yo-yos as much as possible.. wink

I remember one thing I did was letting the poi swing around a body part while letting go and recatching the handle. That was inspired from a move that yo-yoers did. Back when 1A yo-yos were responsive, if you just let go of a yo-yo, it'd instantly wind up. The only way to let go (before freehand/5a's counterweight idea came into being) was to have it swing around a body part and quickly recatch before slack got into the string. I also wrote up a big thread with ideas for poi like throwing in the air and recatching and other stuff I didn't see poi people doing in videos online at the time. I don't know if any of that was actually influential or if it just came in later from other sources, but I'll give myself the delusional luxury of thinking maybe I influenced some people.. wink

In any case, I wrote up some notes on some of the different aspects of the "poi vs. glowstringing" debate while I was reading it. The real problem is not just semantics but also that there are multiple aspects being discussed at the same time, all with their own issues.

First, I think there is aspects of isolationism versus inclusiveness. Please note that I don't consider either of these to be necessarily positive or negative.

I can certainly sympathise with the glowstringers who want to concentrate on what they feel are the strengths of glowsticks and develop that as much as possible. I've seen many instances in yo-yoing and other skills in which people who don't have a lot of contact with others can develop a really unique style and innovative tricks. But prop differences of glowstrings versus sock poi, say, are subtle and not always exclusive (like if someone has light fire poi and wears gloves). I think the best way to go was the eventual argument that it is just a matter of focus, instead of a matter of what is technically possible, which is, IMO, somewhat besides the point. Comparing glowstringing to a style called tailing which incorporates moves in which the tail of a streamer is grabbed. To me, the glowstringing philosophy seems to be of playing toward the strengths of glowsstrings instead of what those strengths actually are, if that makes any sense. In that sense, the tailers and glowstringers would be doing the same things, while the current discussion in this thread is a larger argument of how big of a deal and how positive emphasizing playing toward prop-specific strengths is.

Putting in place restrictions to focus things can certainly help. Yo-yoing used to have two main divisions A and AA. A is "string tricks" involving one yo-yo with the yo-yo sitting on the string and doing crazy cat's cradle type tricks. AA was two yo-yos, one on each hand, doing looping (the yo-yo constantly winds and unwinds in a circular motion similar to poi).

Eventually an X division was set up for other styles to show off. When the different styles people came up with got split up into 3A (string tricks with two yo-yos), 4A (offstring: the yo-yo not connected to the string) and 5A (freehand: using a counterweight instead of having the string attached to your finger), that helped even more. Now people were like "how do I fill up three minutes of just offstring and not be repetitive". And I also remember some jugglers calling offstring "toy diabolo" before it's really unique tricks were developed. And the potential of 3A, thought at first to be limited, is only now starting to come into its own.

But I can also sympathise with those who are more in the vein of inclusivness. I think that cross-over from baton twirling into staff has been a pretty positive thing. Yo-yo has been influenced by diabolo and vice versa. Seeing people's different styles on the internet create instant cross-fertilization. I can see why people would feel that glowstringing trying to be so separate is to the detriment of "spinning" as a whole.

In a sense both opinions are perfectly justified. Concentrating on glowstring-centric tricks can help develop innovative things. Not taking in all influences can be limiting. So.... yeah...

An entirely different thing but probably the most confusing part of this thread is the unclear definition of "poi" itself. I haven't yet read that thread about "should it be called poi" but I can guess a lot of the issues involved. Maori culture defines poi as a particular thing, but not even that is the big issue to me.

For instance I don't agree with that 4-point chart, because it doesn't break down that easily. It mixes prop and how the prop is used, which is certainly related but not in an exact way. Part of the initial reaction of jugglers that poi was easy was club swingers going "I tried those tricks and could do them instantly.. I didn't even have to worry about grips". Things like weave are common to both poi and clubs swinging, so it isn't entirely effective to have weave be "under" the object. Some tricks are more specific to props than others.

Even the breakdown of objects is tricky. In my own mind before this thread, I considered poi any weight on a flexible tether. However, that leads to problems. Many aspects of AA yo-yoing overlap with poi, but if I take my above definition literally, ALL yo-yoing is poi, which doesn't seem quite right (and is kind of where the glowstringers are coming from, though in a much more subtle way).

But then if we define poi a combination of object and method, it becomes even more tricky. For instance, a meteor is considered one long flexible tether with weights on each end. But what about the glowstringing and poi techniques in which you have a weight as the handle and can switch? Aren't you really using a meteor? And if you take a monkey fist meteor and hold one end of it, are you now doing poi? There isn't a real easy answer to that question I don't think.

And that is what makes even the question of "glowstring versus poi" a potentially loaded one. It is like when I see arguments about "comics versus manga". No one can really agree on what "manga" really means and to some degree "comics" and in at least some of those definitions, comics include manga, but it gets way tricker if you try to take about western comics influenced by manga. How can you have "amerimanga" or "comics in a manga style" if someone else defines manga as "comics made in japan regardless of style". There just isn't an easy answer when it comes down to opinions.

On this very thread, I saw someone say that "contact juggling" wasn't really juggling. Well certainly the person who named it that would disagree with you! My personal definition of juggling was shaped by an Amazing America episode from years ago that profiled a juggling convention. A guy talked about how juggling was any interesting manipulation of objects, even including your own body. That is a super-broad definition that arguably includes dance. Some people only consider things thrown and caught to be juggling. Others only consider traditional circus arts to be juggling, which can lead to the ludicrous statement that diabolo is juggling while yo-yoing isn't... It goes on and on..

Part of what makes it even worse for poi is again that lack of clearness on what "a poi" actually is in the physical sense. Most people agree on what a ball is or a yo-yo is, regardless of what you do with it. But as I mentioned above, it isn't that clear for "a poi", because the definition of the object is wrapped up with the use of it. Is a rope dart just a long poi? Is even string tricks in yo-yoing a form of poi? It is hard to differentiate in one way without causing problems in another way... How can we possibly define the guy that was doing ball juggling with the ends of poi that were moving like butterfly? Was it even poi or was it double-meteor? Was it juggling? Or shouldn't juggling cover all of poi including glowstringing anyway?

In the end, I fear none of that kind of discussion will get anywhere because it really comes down to opinion on what the words mean. I concede that naming something gives it a legitamacy (like the categories of yoing and even subcategories of 1A like grinds, slack, suicides, whips, or hyperloops in poi).

Still, I think the actual useful thing is the inclusive vs. exlusive that I first mentioned above, and which as I said is kind of a stalemate. smile But I think it is useful to recognize the two sides. That glowstringers want to concentrate on what they're doing and aren't just ignorant of other styles. And that others are coming from the perspective of sharing and cross-fertilization and not just trying to be imperialistic in their inclusivity. I hope that that is the main conclusion of this thread, since I think that that kind of understanding is ultimately positive, even if it is a form of "agree to disagree".

BTW, as an aside, as I mentioned on tangly thread, it is probably futile to try to track the origins of hyperloops, but it sounds like at least one yo-yo player was doing it around 2000. But a different player seems to think he saw a poi person doing it at a US juggling convention before 2000, so who knows. I'll update if I find out any more. In one way it is silly to argue about who did what first, but I also think it is interesting from a historical perspective to trace the paths of evolution.

Also, rope-dartish wraps (like neck wrap) have been common in yo-yos for many years. This is a definitely a case of prop dictating style in that since a yo-yo spins, hitting it against your body is very detrimental. Doing what poi people ususally associate as a "wrap" only started to be attempted in yoing recently, since it is difficult to do. When I first came on to HOP, I was a bit bewildered by the difference in terms. "How can it be a wrap if it is actually hitting your body??"

Also interesting is that, one of the more common tricks in AA style yo-yoing at the moment is like an advanced form of tracing. Though normal tracing is certainly possible, yo-yoing makes possible a different kind (though the difference between a wrap that doensn't hit you and a trace starts to blur). I mentioned before that "looping" is a yo-yo which constantly retracts and unwinds. It can also "sleep" in which it stays at the end of the string until you tug it back.

Very simple poi moves have been possible with yo-yos for many years (a very old trick called Eye of the Tornado was just the simple cross and uncross of twirled sleeping yo-yos, back when yo-yos still had wooden axles and only like three rotations of a yo-yo were practical). The newer ball-bearing yo-yos let you have 10+ revolutions of a sleeping yo-yo, making most poi moves possible, before having to either catch or "regenerate" (using a loop to put spin back into the yo-yo).

Some of what makes yo-yoing unique is that looping is directional. You can use long strings and loop directly in front of your body or lying down since it just goes outward in one direction. There is also "moon" style tricks which move in a parabola instead of a circle. Also, sudden retraction of the yo-yo makes direction changes possible without an impacting style wrap.

Another thing is the comination of looping and sleeping. Constantly switching between a loop and an around the world (just a sleeping rotation) is called warp drive and gives an interesting effect in itself.

But what's really cool the combo of looping in one hand while sleeping in the other. You can wrap/trace one yo-yo around your other arm (which is looping) and then undo it because you can pass the string through at the moment that the looping yo-yo has retracted. That can be done continously and and even be switched into "hyperloop buzzsaw" (just called tangler in yoing) and back out again by making the looping hand sleep and then go back into looping again.

This freestyle by Hiraku Fujii at the 2005 Japan Nationals has a good variety of AA style tricks in it:
http://yoyomovie.dip.jp/2005JN/2005JN-2a1-hiraku.mpg
br>
He does normal looping, normal sleeping, various hyperloop buzzsaw stuff, normal tracing, moon combined with sleeping, trace/wrap combined with sleeping, and even an impacting wrap at the very end.

Also check out Jun Taniguchi's freestyle, which while much less polished has some really neat tangler variation stuff in it (which poi/glo people are probably already doing, but I haven't seen it myself yet):
http://yoyomovie.dip.jp/2005JN/2005JN-2a6-jun_taniguchi.mpg
br>
Lastly, if you'd like to see a bit of an overview of the different styles of yoing (except for freehand), this is a pretty fun clip video from a club meeting in Japan (also has some fun stuff like hyperloop buzzsaw with clapping, crossed arms horizontal hyperloop buzzsaw, etc):
http://video.yoyoing.com:8080/yoyo/bu-ko/video/bk_WestJapanContest2005.mpg
br>
Or just check out the winning freestyles in the 5 different divisions of the various contests (Like Kenji Eto in 2005 East Japan vividly shows why offstring yo-yoing is distinct from diabolo in an incredible freestyle, Hiroyasu Ishihara's 5A freestyle in Japan Nationals was amazing, all the Worlds videos are interesting, etc):
http://yo-yo.jp/video.htm
br>
And I do find it interesting how culture affects things. Like how baton twirling's culture seems so utterly divorced from fire staff people, despite there being fire batons and all. I'm sure yo-yo culture seems odd to a lot of you, with the equivilant of poi/glo being done up on stage and being judged (though it is way less in that direction than baton twirling.. most people come to yo-yo contests just to hang out and have fun and plenty of the culture revolves around just sharing moves online like with poi/glo). Even music is different, like how many yo-yoers use eurodance or jpop music.

So, I felt like I just had to comment. I hope someone gets something out of this message. smile

Cheers,
Shawn


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:That's a really good write up; it's good to get some yo-yo perspective.





What is juggling? Some jugglers would be happy to define it as 'object manipulation', in which case contact would indeed by juggling (as would poi); others would define it as 'there being at least one more object in the air than there are hands to throw/catch them'- in that case 'contact juggling' would not be juggling.



The real answer is that there is no 'real' definition of juggling- different people define it in different (and contradictory ways).



My opinion is that it's all very well to say-



Written by: ShawnF






A guy talked about how juggling was any interesting manipulation of objects, even including your own body. That is a super-broad definition that arguably includes dance.









and emphasise the wholistic, encompassing, 'new-age' aspects of this amazing skill of juggling that I've personally spent most of my life practicing.



But, then again, to say that juggling is anything to do with object manipulation, has the downside of a term being rendered somewhat useful for description purposes.



We have diabalo, devil sticks, poi, contact etc- if you call them all 'juggling', suddenly the term becomes pretty useless.



And, if you want to describe 'three-ball work' you have to invent a new term, say, 'toss juggling', which then means exactly the same as the old one did('juggling').



So, for me, I use the term 'circus skills' to cover the whole lot; however, that's only when trying to describe it to the general public (non-jugglers), because I know that 'circus-skills' is innacurate too- it implies that these skills have their origins purely in the circus, and that is not so (a prime example being poi).



So 'object manipulation' is possibly an even better umberella term.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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ShawnF
member
Location: Springfield, MA - USA
Member Since: 16th Dec 2000
Total posts: 162
Posted:Yeah, I can agree with that. I've used "object manipulation" myself before. The main problem is that it doesn't really roll off the tongue, and unfortunately it seems like that is one of the main deciding factors on whether a term really "sticks" in terms of general use. Good for semantic discussions like this and reference pages, I doubt we'll see any newspaper articles on "object manipulation" heh.

I guess my main concern isn't over the name itself but in the attitudes the definition can foster. If you feel that a place like a juggling club might be your main option for hanging out with other openminded people to do all kinds of different stuff, encountering someone who both has a limited definition of juggling and thinks less of those things not fitting that definition is where the trouble can come in...

Luckily there seems to be little elitism in this area (Umass Juggling Club) where a yo-yo player is even a treasurer. smile Yo-yoers also seemed to be pretty well received at the BUJA convention in Boston, which was nice. I've heard some bad stories from other areas, though.

Shawn


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi ShawnF, I enjoyed your comments.

I loved yo-yo as a kid, but admittedly I had never thought of yo-yo as a form of poi. I think poi can be defined if we look at these examples from: Maori performance arts, Poi Toa and HoP.

I think the other props and weapons can be defined by their history or the paths of evolution as you suggested. Because, it seems evident that yo-yo has a history that suggests it is not poi. While meteor, rope dart and Indian clubs all evolved independently.

This doesnt prove anything one way or another, it just shows an independent evolution. Im not even going to even try to answer the obvious glowstick question here.

Good point regarding dance as juggling. Apparently the butterfly, a contact-juggling move, is copied from a Middle Eastern dance. Snake arms are used in middle-eastern dance, clubs and poi. And dance, put the hula in hoop.

No comment of baton and staff twirling's cultures.

I dont think it will get past the agree to disagree" stage. But does it matter? People are tying new things, and everyone is passionate about these arts.

Thanks, great read.

cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:OK I have to do this.

*breathes*



We made a sand sculpture scorpion for Moonfest last night... used a green/orange glowie for the sting at the end of the tail...



Led to the obvious question...



Glowstinging.,, Fact or fiction?!?!?!?!

wink


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Dr_Molly
Dr_Molly

Pooh-Bah
Location: Away from home
Member Since: 4th May 2004
Total posts: 2354
Posted:ubblol

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:tongue ubblol



at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the sting is made of, its the poison inside it that counts wink





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol
clap clap clap


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:*Wick* ed humour there Cole

(how do you get bold type?!?) confused


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:And why is this thread telling me that it is * how to build an igloo...* as well as *glowstringing*....??? umm

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:It's a riddle.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Dr_Molly
Dr_Molly

Pooh-Bah
Location: Away from home
Member Since: 4th May 2004
Total posts: 2354
Posted:cole - you're a funny man hug

bold type is brought to us by the square brackets and the letter b

and it's called "how to build an igloo" because it isn't in the spirit of the thing to claim you can't build an igloo out of whatever you want and call it something terribly specific wink


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:grouphug to gabe and the chuckling crew smile



apologies for this - i thought it was all sorted out in my head and then i read something that seemed to suggest glowstick 'dancing' embraces all the elements that techy poi spinners are accussed of replacing dance with confused



it seems reading this that if you do poi with the dance bit removed, it suddenly makes it more glowstick in nature.



it also sounds like all poi spinners have exactly the same dance style when seen through a glowstickers eyes...



Written by: wes from the other thread in poi moves
well, my honest opinion is that it looks kind of ugly. there's really no thoughts behind it, nor is it artistic.



for the most part its swaying and side-stepping back and forth while wrapping. those movements are both generic and unnecessary. those movement has NOTHING to do with the wraps he is doing. he would sway the same way no matter what wraps he is doing. there's no thought behind it, he just does it just because. i see that as a bad habit.



to me a good dancer knows where his/her body is and what its doing at all times. eliminates unnecessary movements and add variety at the same time. compliments whatever else he is doing with the rest of the body movement.



and in this case, Kael did not do so. he just sways and sidesteps without care.



other movements he done are the quick spins and the under the leg swing while turning. how is that different than another persons when they did a weave/turn or under the leg swing turn? those movements are pretty much "built in" in the moves themselves. there's specific timing where you need to turn to make it work, and that goes for everyone.



with kael's case, his turns looks awfully similar to Nick's Devilishly Yers, but only a worse. less graceful. he even admitted that's where he tried to copy these from.





i don't think i understand your definition of 'dancing' ast all wes and i'm worried that i might be misinterpreting what you are saying.

it seems you think that any body movement whilst swinging is bad?



what defines 'good dance' for you when it comes to swinging poi and/or glowsticks...?



personally, i didn't think kael's movement style looked even remotely like nick's but there ya go...





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Crikey chaps, not all poi spinners are techies sockies, wrappies or even English! There's amazing people dancing beautifully with poi all around me here. And contact staffs. And hackie sacks. Even the devil stickies are groovin!

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:that's what i was trying to ask - what exactly defines good dance with glowsticks and what do glowstickers think good dance with poi encompasses?

the criticism is often levelled at 'techy' poi spinners that they do not dance enough.


i personally tend not to bend my legs at all which limits my movement quite a bit but gives my style a definite look.
i turn lots, have a good concept of rhythm and tempo and i aim to move between definite body positions.

there seems to be a definite contrast in that glowstickers aim for a low amount of body-movement when swinging and i was wondering exactly what glowstickers see in poi swingers when they dance...


cole.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:If I put green color to my fire Poi I will be glowstringer? smile

POI THEO(R)IST

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Hi Cole
* not dance enough* is an interesting concept.

Every person I see spin has their own style... some people move heaps, take up heaps of space. The movement of their bodies is sometimes related to what they're playing with, sometimes the music ( if there is any), their mood, the phase of the moon... whatever. They move more and there can seem to more difference between them.

The sockwraptechyperloop types move far far less... to the point where I would not call it dance as such, but a movement style for sure.. they might look more 'similar' but the differences in how someone carries themselves, turns and so on are still there, more subtle.
And that's fine by me, I really enjoy watching them and really appreciate that way of being. Why should people who express the,seves so beautifully like that 'dance' more just because someone else does?

This isn't a 'sport' with ' rules' (and 'winners') surely?


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:I read it somewhere:

Glowstringing is life without glowstringin you'll die. smile

and

No crews, no battles,
we are just some friends who want to hang out
and do what we like to do.

Hope nothing changed , light
:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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