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Forums > Social Chat > Dont Attak Iraq Demo!! (london 28th)

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Urban_Culture


member
Location: coventry, midlands, uk

Total posts: 89
Posted:NE1 goin to the demo, itz gona b a biggun! stop the war coalition

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Yay lets all support uses of chemical weapons!! Lets all get together and praise Maddas (Saddam backwards) for using his people as guini pigs and sending mistles into innocent Isriale!!

Damn that sounds like a fucking hoot!!

Why dont you bring back communisim to?!!

I love how they try to make it a whole world vs Islam. Very shiek. How they have the arab looking woman with a sign over her head. Ya I really thing that is what she is shouting.

"Tell the MPs how you feel..." yep they are gonna listen. Why dont you attack the US Embasy instead of afternoon tea?

The amazing thing about the little chart that they have is that yes America probably has the most nukes and what not (I cant confirm nor deny that) but the cool thing is... we dont threaten nor do we use them.

[ 23 September 2002, 00:11: Message edited by: Raymund Phule ]


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Urban_Culture


member
Location: coventry, midlands, uk

Total posts: 89
Posted:Raymond how am i suporting the use of chemical wepons , i simply dont agree with the fact that if iraq is attaked the 1000's of inocent people will die and Saddam probly won't.
Quote: "we dont threaten" we meaning the U.S
thatz got to be the funniest thing ive heard in a long time!


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Muff_Daddy


member
Location: London

Total posts: 45
Posted:Raymond, u need to chill and have a read of what urban culture just said. u urself said in ur first couple of lines .. that saddam is using ppl as gunie pigs...and if there is an attack on iraq they are the gunie pigs who are gona die, ppl who have nothin to do with the weapons saddam has. so bacially if there is an attack what's it gona do to saddam? kill people who he would probably kill himself?

'Statistics are like miniskirts, they reveal more than they hide.'

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:WOW Ray, I certainly don't condone or support Saddam or his regime. He is one badarse (trained by the US ???) but you've got this one backwards. Because surprising as it seems, most people don't want to go to WAR. If the US attacks Iraq, without reason or the sanctions of the UN, then the Bush is just as bad as Saddam.

And, for all intention purposes it will be the US invading Iraq for OIL (which is what this is really about). Which kinda contradicts your "…yes America probably has the most nukes and what not (I cant confirm nor deny that) but the cool thing is... we dont threaten nor do we use them." statement.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Urban_Culture


member
Location: coventry, midlands, uk

Total posts: 89
Posted:well said stone!

(these arnt my words but true all the same)
Tony Blair wants to commit us to a horrific war. An attack on Iraq will kill thousands of innocent people, devastate a country already reeling from sanctions and bombing, and further destabilise the Middle East.

Bush's oil and war faction admit this isnt really about Saddam's weapons. They want "regime change". But it will be the ordinary people of Iraq that suffer from the attack, not Saddam.

Polls show the majority of British people are against Bush and Blairs war drive. Ten trade unions, church leaders, Muslim groups, leading journalists, over 150 MPs are saying, "Dont attack Iraq".

The Stop the War Coalition urges everyone to demonstrate on 28 September, but also to spread the word. Tell your workmates, friends and neighbours, leaflet your street, publicise the demonstration in your trade union, church or tenants group, and get in touch with your local Stop the War Coalition group.

An enormous demonstration on 28 September can make Tony Blair think again.

Please note that the route of the march has been changed because Trafalgar Square is partly closed. It will now go from the Embankment to Hyde Park. The march will assemble at 1pm, as previously advertised.


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vaperloc...the mighty


vaperloc...the mighty

look @my member
Location: Ft worth Texas

Total posts: 466
Posted:Well of coyurse if sadaam would give up his nukes then there would be no invasion .fuck saddaam.
And my freind you are mistaken if you think we use our bobms to threaten people, if that was the case there would be a smoldering crater where iraq used to be.Most of sadaams soldiers think he is crazy too,but they want to feed their families so they work for him.which I understand,but I do think that saddaam should give up his shit.thee last thing the world needs is nuclear war,and if that crazy fuck decides to launch ,guess whats gonna happen the.
I may not be totally educated on the subject but I know sadaam is a worthless fuck.
SADAAAM

Non-Https Image Link


There are no obstacles only challenges.
Very funny scotty now beam down my pants.
[colour."green"}What would willie do?

AHH theres too many wee leprechauns i cannae squash them all

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vaperloc...the mighty


vaperloc...the mighty

look @my member
Location: Ft worth Texas

Total posts: 466
Posted:And it's also morning to me so I cant type or spell well right now.

There are no obstacles only challenges.
Very funny scotty now beam down my pants.
[colour."green"}What would willie do?

AHH theres too many wee leprechauns i cannae squash them all

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ray, I agree that Saddam has to go. But this is a really bad time.

The brand of Islam that they practice in Iraq is the other end of the pole from the sort that OBL practices. It's like Catholics vs. Mormons, but more so.

We cannot claim that we're not fighting a war on Islam and then hit both poles of the religion. Iraq had nothing to do with the attacks on the WTC and Saddam Hussein is not doing much right now. Bush is basically shooting guns into the air out of frustration.

What we should be doing is finding OBL or his remains.

Hussein has been sitting there festering for ten years now and he hasn't done anything that threatening to us. There's no good reason to attack Iraq right now, of all times.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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vaperloc...the mighty


vaperloc...the mighty

look @my member
Location: Ft worth Texas

Total posts: 466
Posted:Why not now??/ it doesnt matter whether or no thehelped obl,screw that crazy bastard there is no telling when he could just get a hair up his ass to luanch a nuke.who cares what thgeir religion is that has nothing to do with it from our end.yea he has been festering fo rten years and building back his army.I say hang em both from the biggest treee we can find.then let some wild animals have the bodies.

There are no obstacles only challenges.
Very funny scotty now beam down my pants.
[colour."green"}What would willie do?

AHH theres too many wee leprechauns i cannae squash them all

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SickpuPpy


SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.

Total posts: 1100
Posted:So that war on drugs, that should be any day now, right?

Jesus helps me trick people.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Why dont you try using that in context Urban? Might kill your point but then again, I might be mistaken but isnt that plagerisim?

Muff Daddy, you need to learn something quick fast and in a hurry, you say something against my country, your saying it against me! I take great offence to it.

You dont go to war, people like me do!

Why do you insist that we are out to kill innocent people? Saddam uses his own weapons on his people, that is fact. Frankly I would rather die from a bomb rather than a chemical weapon. If I can get permission from intel I will post some pics of people who have. I doubt I will but I will try just so you can see how horrible it is.

It is not about oil, dont forget that your country depends on oil just as much as the US and the UK. How do you get off saying its just about oil.

Vaperloc, you are quite mistaken about the soldiers of Iraq. They dont work for Saddam to feed their families, they work for him because if they dont, they will be killed. That is a fact the US learned 10 years ago or so. They are starved, have little to no water. They work out of fear for their and their families lives.

Mike, Iraq may not have had anything to do with the attacks, enphisis on may. Saddam is a terrorist at the highest levels. Your right Saddam has done nothing but shoot down a few planes. The UN that includes the UK and Austrailia imposed sactions against him that he has not lived up to. The punishment of not following those sanctions is what is about to happen.

We are not fighting against Islam, how could you think that? The prodominent religion in that region is Islam, that is true but we are not targeting Isam. If we were, we would be blowing up mosks.

Sickpuppy, the war on drugs would be over long time ago, but people like you enjoy them too much and if your not part of the solution your part of the problem! There is no middle ground, but that is another topic save it for a different post


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Bram....


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Location: the arms of the Ganja Goddess

Total posts: 1551
Posted:Fuck Ray. America is attacking middle eastern coutries so that they can put their own variations of local gov't into power there. There is immense riches to be had there. As well as the fact that american economy grows immensly during times of war. So by attacking weaker countries they further thier own territory, as well as become richer. How long will it be before America decides that they want to take over Sth. America, Canada, England or Australia. Think about this before you praise your countrie Ray. Think about friends that may be lost to you because of your gov't' greed for power and money. America was built upon genocide and treachery, and will forever be.

You. Its whats for dinner!

As time passes, you realise all the mistakes you amde and the ones you wish you never did make.

The wave crashing on the beach

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:The American Economy has been at war for a year now and guess what? Record losses in the markets! Yep were doing quite well. I am glad I am not an invester! Frankly to your credit, the only companies not losing money are the makes of kevlar guns and other weapons. Excluding major plane manufactuers who double as weapon manufactuers for the military. America is not out to conquer the world your delusions are a joke. I will give you 6 billion reasons not to take over the world. You would have to take care of so many sick and squabbiling people, it wouldnt be worth the trouble. Sorry if that was to blunt. Your just wrong sorry bud.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

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Posted:quote:Originally posted by High Emperor Bram:
America was built upon genocide and treachery, and will forever be.Where do you get off saying that, America was and is a clongomeration of ever race relicion and creede. We can not commit genocide without wiping ouselves out. There is no such thing as a pure blood American. We all have blood from diferent persons from different countries in us.

Bah!


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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fieryfiend


member
Location: California

Total posts: 48
Posted:Remember when Sadam used chemical weapons on his own people? Remember when he attacked Kuwait? He's not exactly the nicest dictator the world has ever seen. Why did he block UN inspections ? Its scary to think what he has been developing for the last four years. He has shown his tendancy for terrorism and I feel its only a matter of time before it is unleashed again. On who is anyones guess. If we don't attack I feel at best it would another Cold War, at worst we could see another Hitler (FYI: whom he has compared himself to him).

Bram I really don't know where you get off suggesting the US will attack Canada, England etc. I hope you don't actually believe that. Sounds like you were just blowing off a little steam that unfortunately came out of your ass.

If your interested in seeing where other countries stand on the issue check out this link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/2240570.stm#top


Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ray, the United States massacred the Native peoples as White Man marched West across the land. We gave them blankets with smallpox on them (biowarfare), among other things.

This is a country built on genocide. Sad, but true.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ray, the United States massacred the Native peoples as White Man marched West across the land. We gave them blankets with smallpox on them (biowarfare), among other things.

This is a country built on genocide. Sad, but true.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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master sodium


member
Location: carson city, nevada

Total posts: 536
Posted:and. . . um. . . ray. if we're not trying to take over the world, then why did we put military bases on muslim holy land? why did a "war on terrorism" happen in afganistan and pakistan just a few weeks after we discovered oil deposits in afganistan and pakistan, which by the way, the american government didn't seem to mention at all? why are we considering attacking a country, when the rest of the WORLD thinks we shouldn't? and why are we risking loosing our allies to do it?

and if you believe someone using drugs is a part of the drug problem, then someone using bombs is part of the war problem.

I would also like to mention that you should look at my signature at this point


you can't have a war against terrorism because war IS terrorism.it's not about worshipping fire. its about making the fire want to worship you.

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fieryfiend


member
Location: California

Total posts: 48
Posted:quote: why did a "war on terrorism" happen in afganistan and pakistan just a few weeks after we discovered oil deposits in afganistan and pakistan, Not sure if you heard Sodium but over 3000 people died on Sept 11th. That is why we attacked afghanistan. More people died from that attack than the attack on pearl harbor. If that isn't reason enough to declare war I don't know what is.
Personally I don't know how someone could be such a passivist and not be outraged by that extreme an act of terrorism. It's that type of mentality that allows people to become oppressed.

quote: why are we considering attacking a country, when the rest of the WORLD thinks we shouldn't? You should sincerely check the link I posted on my previous post. It might give you better sense of reality.


Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do

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master sodium


member
Location: carson city, nevada

Total posts: 536
Posted:not sure if you heard fieryfiend but there is a decent amount of evidence to support the fact that our own government had alot to do with the "terrorist attacks". I mean, how many people were there who worked in the buildings that just happened to not be there when they should have for work. if this was truly an unknown attack ALOT more people would have died.

you can't have a war against terrorism because war IS terrorism.it's not about worshipping fire. its about making the fire want to worship you.

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:This kind of thread always makes me wish I could reel off some nice shiny statistics to prove my point. But then again there is that good old "lies, damn lies, & statistics" shite so I will stick to my usual tactices, withhold my opinions till the last minute, and throw some questions into the mix:

1. Do you believe that Iraq has a nuclear weapons capability?

2. Do you believe that the sanctions imposed by the UN have been effective or ineffective? Please outline why

3. What options are there to solving this issue?


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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master sodium


member
Location: carson city, nevada

Total posts: 536
Posted:ok, so like 6 or seven of those countries supported bush. how many countries are there in this world who weren't mentioned. besides, this was put up by the bbc, which is basicallt controlled (to an extent) by the brittish government, which is controlled by tony blair, who seems to be the only avid supporter of bush. the rest of the countries who "support" bush are basically saying "I won't send troops, but I need you to be on my side when you take over the world". at least thats how I see it.

you can't have a war against terrorism because war IS terrorism.it's not about worshipping fire. its about making the fire want to worship you.

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master sodium


member
Location: carson city, nevada

Total posts: 536
Posted:also keep in mind who created nuclear weapons to begin with.

you can't have a war against terrorism because war IS terrorism.it's not about worshipping fire. its about making the fire want to worship you.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:No Mike, biowarfare is intentional, the small pox that infected some native Americans was not intentional. Hell I would be willing to bet that our ancestors didnt even know what a germ was let alone small pox!

Actually oil has been known to be in Afganistan for years! You are so braod on your definition of terrorisim and war. But if you want to play that way, breaking the law is terrorisim!

Master Sodium your about a friggin rock, you should be estatic that more people didnt die. How dare you come off and accuse the government of choosing who got to live and who died.

You are just full of conspiricies arnt your Sodium. Gee I bet you think that Bush assainated Kennidy too!

Your absolutly right, America made the first nuke used the first nuke, but think about this... if we hadnt guess who would have. Hitler! You want him runnin the show? Everyone who isnt blond haird and blue eyed would be dead right now.

Your a fucking cowerd and traitor in my eyes Sodium, you hide behind the freedomes that people like me are willing to die for.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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master sodium


member
Location: carson city, nevada

Total posts: 536
Posted:ray, I realise that we've known oil to be there for years. but there was a recently discovered oil deposit found there not to long before the sept. 11 attacks. made me wonder a little bit.

and I am glad that more people didn't die in the attacks. I felt remorse and sadness just like the rest of the US/world when I heard of what happened. why do you think I would be so angry at my government for not doing something to stop it, when I've seen enough evidence to convince me that our elected officials and their staff at least knew of what was to come. and the reason I can come off and accuse my government of choosing who lived and who died is because I believe they did the same thing for the oklahoma city bombing (same deal, alot more people should've been there then actually were).

and I'm sorry I don't hold the bush family in higher regards, but the fact that the osama's and the bushes teamed up to start drilling for oil in saudi arabia kinda makes me a little weary.

and if breaking the law is terrorism then you must be a terrorist as well, because I'm sure you have exceeded the speed limit at least once in your life. you probably have also lit up your staff without having a certificate of registration.

and I'm a coward for standing up and speaking my mind? you know ray, it takes alot more guts to be willing to go against the grain, especially in a situation like this, then to conform and call other people cowards and traitors for not believing what we're supposed to.

and finally keep in mind, THIS IS MY OPINION. and if it bothers you this much that I have a different opinion, then you must not believe in yours to strongly, because anger only comes out when one feels threatened.

I'm truly sorry ray that you are not willing to let my opinions be without having to resort to childish name calling. I was just trying to debate my side of the argument, and you had to get all pissy and attack me. and I know, I know, you're gonna say "you attacked me first", but I was just arguing my side.

well, I guess being the traitor I am, its time to go smoke three joints, burn an american flag for the fun of it, spread the word of communism to all the young people, and if I have time maybe I'll go bomb a government office or two



you can't have a war against terrorism because war IS terrorism.it's not about worshipping fire. its about making the fire want to worship you.

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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:**** WARNING: LONG POST AHEAD *****

"War is Hell."
I dunno who quoted that, but they were right on the money.

Firstly, to all the war mongers out there: What do expect war to solve? Mankind has been engaged in war since they could grip a jawbone and swing at the guy next door. Most people who say "Let's go to war." are the same people who have never really seen a battlefield. What good has war done us? Why do you people need excuses to start one? We never had one before. "Oil, Money, Revenge, F--king UN Sanctions...what's the point? Those issues won't get resolved. War does nothing but destroy lives. Period.

Nuclear Weapons. You better believe Saddam has 'em. When Communism collapsed and Russia split into a dozen independent republics, where do you think the nukes went? About 30% of the former Soviet Union's nuclear arms are UNNACCOUNTED FOR. That means they were most likely sold to Middle Eastern nations. You know, the land of hate and money? And if we attack, he'll be 'justified' using them, won't he? And if he uses nukes, we'll retaliate with them and the rest of the world, no matter who's side they're on, will DIE from the resulting fallout.

Biological Weapons. Man has been using germ warfare just as long as war itself. In the old days, soldiers would catapult dead/diseased animals over the enemy's gates. Or they'd dump them up stream from the enemy camp. The hope was that the opposing army would catch Bubonic plague, or smallpox. These days, we've got biologics so fast & deadly, we don't even have vaccines for them. Ever see outbreak? That's NOTHING!

I'm not even gonna get into Chemical weapons.

And as far as the U.S. rattling it's sabres? What do you think the State Department is for? We threaten everyone! In 1945, we threatened Japan with complete and utter destruction!
We said "Surrender or else."
They said "Ha!" (But in Japanese)
We said "Goodbye Hiroshima. Now surrender or else."
They said "No way you got two of those babies."
So we dessimated Nagasaki. See all the good it did? Millions dead. and those were LITTLE BOMBS. a few kilatons each. The average nuke these days is around 40. You know what a nuke is good for? Causing thousands of innocent people to reach 10,000 degrees in less than a second. That's it.

And as far as national loyalty, I haven't seen a single country on this planet I'd be willing to kill OR die for. This country (U.S.) was founded by slave owners who wanted to be free. To do this, they killed millions of people, English, French, Spanish, Dutch, Indians, Blacks, etc., and that was just to establish the country. The 200 years since then were even worse.

And how the Hell can you make a Declaration of war against a group? A country, Yes. A coupla hundred crazy people? No.

So before you condone a war, please think about the consequences. Hopefully you'll change your minds about war being an option. It's not. Just think.


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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master sodium


member
Location: carson city, nevada

Total posts: 536
Posted:well said prometheus.

you can't have a war against terrorism because war IS terrorism.it's not about worshipping fire. its about making the fire want to worship you.

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:Ray, bub, I know that you will be one of the ones on the front line should the U.S. declare war. I also know that the ones who will die in Iraq will most likely be the innocents of that country, not the leaders. And that is why I would say no to war.

We have talked together about proud cultures, in other contexts, and how military action against them has made their attitudes to foreigners worse, not better. This could happen again, and this country may not have the outlet in trade that others have had. And that is why I would say no to war, I don't believe it is a solution, rather just a way of postponing the problem.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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David Ike's Decaf


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Location: Quiet Suburbia

Total posts: 17
Posted:David Icke says;
George DudududududuB-Ya Bush is a planet raping Lizard, and anyone who supports him must be a Lizard also.

Just because the people who run our countries say something is right and just doesn't mean it is.

We should have the strength of mind, courage and conviction to see past the veil of conformity and seek out our own views rather than the Coca Cola endorsed, Mc Shit friendly-capitalistism-is the great white hope bullshit we are bred to believe.

Escape Robotisation.


Hi I'm David Ike,You may remember me from such films as Whoops, is that my Lizard? and the weather on ITV.

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Ooooo! another political debate. Cool! It's always nice to see long thought out posts and the venomous attacks, both of which come from both sides of the debate. This is going to be a long one, and it's for those interested. Some of it's repeated in other threads, but so what!

Firstly you're thinking "Dom's a European. An appeaser". Let me once again point out that just because someone says "We should not attack Iraq" that doesn't mean they support Saddam, think the state of the world is hunky-dorry or that we should stand back and do nothing. It's because, like Prometheus points out, they know war solves little and there are other ways to solve a crisis, ways which don't piss off the majority of the world.

Secondly the word 'conspiracy' has been harked. It's such a useful phrase! It's now associated with crack pots who think the world is run by giant gerbils who live in the hollow centre of the earth. So to listen and think about a 'conspiracy theory' is seen as being a crack pot. No sane person believes these conspiracies do they? Of course not! This mental control is a powerful tool. All somebody in the media, government, or a normal Joe with a closed mind has to do to kill an idea for other people (or more commonly - themselves) is label an idea a conspiracy.

So, now onto some thoughts.

The phrase "Saddam has weapons of mass destruction!" has replaced "Saddam gassed his own people!" as the mantra of war-mongering dittoheads. But despite Scott Ritter's (a U.N. weapons inspector and former U.S. Marine who recently visited Baghdad) assertion that there's no proof Hussein has amassed weapons of mass destruction, Dick Cheney says there's "no doubt" he's got them and plans to use them.

However during the Gulf war, when Saddam was at the height of his power, and in the decade since, there was no use of chemical or biological weapons. We know he definitely did back when Saddam was our partner in the war against Iran's Islamic revolution.

What did happen however was the Western Allies used vast amounts of depleted uranium and left vast amounts of Southern Iraq with extremely high cancer rates. In southern Iraq infant mortality from cancer is through the roof.

The creation of Iraq's original arsenal of chemical and biological weapons was greatly facilitated by U.S. companies' sale of hardware to Iraq - sales that were approved during the 1980s, when the administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush both sided with Iraq in its war with Iran. These weapons, however, were largely eliminated by previous inspections. The UN Weapons Inspection team reckons what materiel remains has deteriorated to the point of uselessness.

As for nuclear weapons, Iraq's program lags far behind that of other unstable extremist nations, including Iran, North Korea and Pakistan. Yet we have lifted sanctions against Pakistan intended to end its nuclear program, are building a nuclear plant for power generation in North Korea and have chosen to ignore Iran's well-documented nuclear weapons program.

And if concern over Iraq's nuclear program was truly the issue, we could destroy any suspicious installations from the air, as the Israelis did two decades ago in demolishing Iraq's French built nuclear reactor (an action condemned by the US as an illegal attack on its ally, a Mr Saddam Hussein).

At this stage please note that the US is the only country ever to use nuclear weapons in anger. Hussein is not allowed even to contemplate a horrible act for which the United States remains not only unapologetic, but even proud.

And you reckon the US doesn't threaten the use of nuclear weapons? What planet are you on? Even if you're too young to remember it did you not hear about something called "The Cold War". It was really big in the 50s. And the 60s, 70s and 80s. The principal was Russia and the US both constantly threatened the use of nuclear weapons as a deterrent. The US has spent decades threatening to use nuclear weapons!!!! And didn't the US did threaten the use of small nukes as a way of reaching deep bunkers in Afghanistan?

In his speech to the United Nations Bush was reduced to trotting out examples of Iraq's war crimes from the days when Saddam was a ally of the United States.

The Bush administration harks on about how Saddam has defied the UN repeatedly and should be made to answer for this. This was one of fundamental arguments he used at the UN. I quote: "Are Security Council resolutions to be honored and enforced or cast aside without consequence? ... We want the resolutions of the world's most important multilateral body to be enforced."

Israel has repeated resolutions against it, some dating back 35 years, namely Security Council Resolution 242 - which calls for an immediate end to the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and citing "the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war". This is the same rationale which compelled the Security Council to condemn the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait.

It appears the US happily will "cast aside without consequence" international opinion and UN resolutions.

The UN has also repeatedly stated the devastating effects of US-led sanctions on the people of Iraq, mostly caused by the US and further damage inflicted by the US repeatedly vetoing critically needed shipments, some of which is needed to save the lives of kids dying from cancer caused by the US use of depleted uranium. The sanctions against Iraq do not do what they're mean't to do. One million innocent people have died as a result. 1000000. Makes September 11th look like a pretty nice day for a sightseeing trip up the the WTC.

"Iraq persecutes it's minorities!"
Yes, it's true. And he shouldn't, he's a bad dictator (as opposed to Pakistan's nice dictator who we like because he helped us bomb Afghanistan). Nobody should. Everyone should have the right to a free life. However Iraq doesn't stand out from the crowd here. Even US allies have in recent history and currently actively surpressing and persecuting their populations. Indonesia murdering the Timorese, Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, Turkey brutally oppressing its Kurdish minority.

Hussein's suppression of his domestic population was encouraged and supported by the US - both before and after the Gulf War. After the ceasefire of March 1991, Hussein asked for permission to fly air strikes against rebels in both the northern and southern no-fly zones of Iraq. The elder Bush granted Hussein's wish, even though the American President had publicly encouraged the Kurdish population of Iraq to rise up. Hussein brutally suppressed this rebellion.

And then there's the 'bigger picture'. The massive geopolitical consequences of words and actions are not to be underestimated. Every Arab and many, many other people in the world are looking at the US and thinking "Yes, Saddam is bad, but he's not the worst. If you want to get involved in solving injustices in the Arab world fix the Israel/Palestine situation first." That's the biggest problem in the Middle East, the situation which will cause most instability in the region. So the US should start there, by making it's protege abide by the UN resolutions against it and make progress on the numerous UN plans to bring the situation to a peaceful end.

An attack against Iraq will destablise the Middle East. Islamic fundamentalists will gain more power, the anti-West sentiment will grow exponentially. It'll set back global relations decades! This isn't a Wild West town where there's a bad guy about town and somebody needs to take him down; this is global politics and there's 6 billion souls at stake.

Still, the US must go to war or US voters might start focusing on the dismal state of the economy under George Bush's government. There isn't a war on War hasn't slowed US economy, Bush has, especially with the huge tax cuts he brought in to make people happy after he was elected. Fortunately for Bush, arguments over Iraq now dominate headlines, rather than the recession and incredible shrinking 401Ks.

Nice and long. Thanks for reading.


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