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Forums > Social Chat > Dont Attak Iraq Demo!! (london 28th)

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Urban_Culture
member
Location: coventry, midlands, uk
Member Since: 21st Nov 2001
Total posts: 89
Posted:NE1 goin to the demo, itz gona b a biggun! stop the war coalition

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Dom, the justification is this, over 10 years ago Saddam attacked a peacefull contry. Due to the good graces of the UN he was allowed to remain in power. Why I dont know and you sure as hell dont know, you are not and never have been part of the UN so dont presume shit. Now that attack was justification back then and it still is now. There is no after the fact laws or loopholes in war.

Leave it be Dom you cant understand nor can you comprehend, you can only further bad mouth and spread propiganda. I am sick of you and sick of your mouth. I have tried to be civil time and time again and now what was left of this nice guy just left. You will never see my nice side. Frankly you should hope we never meet.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Being a civilised person I'm still civil even when faced with arrogant abuse. OK, your point for justification is interesting as that is something different form the 'he's a threat to the US' line and so we can discuss that if you want.

The Iraqi invasion of Kuwait is often depicted as a random act of madness. It was in fact a desperate act by a desperate country. Iraq invaded Kuwait for what it saw as illegal slant drilling of their oil reserves and, along with other Arab states, flooding the oil market to devalue the price of oil. Iraq had a crippling war debt and needed the money from oil to rebuilt and sustain the economy. So Iraq invaded Kuwait in order to corner a larger share of the oil market. Iraq also has a claim to Kuwait. In 1921 Kuwait was created, primarily to deprive Iraq of access to the Persian Gulf, so there's some merit to the claim. This isn't a justification for his invasion, but it shows motive (there's a difference) and it's important to understand the motivation behind people's actions.

Anyway, Iraq invaded and was then counter invaded and forced out. That was the war. Then the war ended. Iraq, as a country, paid a big penalty for the war, and continues to do so. Do you not think that over one million dead civilians, half of them children, and over $200 billion is a fair price for the invasion?

Over a decade has passed and the Gulf War and Kuwaiti invasion is history. To re invade now for past reasons is not valid. Most only other people fighting for a past cause are labelled terrorists and rebels, e.g. the IRA in Ireland; Hamas, etc... in Palestine; Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. The list goes on. Waging war again for a crime that is past and the price paid is not legal or justifiable. Do you not agree?

And me sprout propaganda? Er, what? In a debate you put across evidence to substantiate a claim or support point of debate. That's not propaganda. Propaganda is spreading information, true of false, in support of a cause in order to facilitate support for that cause. True, I offer up information why we should not attack Iraq, the point of the thread, where as you repeat US government propaganda. Thusly I argue that you are the successful target of an efficient propaganda machine.

I argue that you can comprehend and understand a lot surrounding these issues. I'm curious, if you really think you can't understand it then any opinion of yours is invalid and flimsy, so why do you continue to believe it and shout it with such vigour?

Bram, I've got your name! When I'm in charge of the world you'll be first against wall!


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Dom I dont want to talk about anthing with you. All you want to do is rationalsie everything that happens in the world. You are no more civil than you are royal. Go to hell Dom

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:This is a debate, a conversation, where you rationalise things in order to discuss them and converse.

Sorry Ray, but you can't run around insulting people and hitting them just because you don't agree with them and they ask your reasons for why you believe what you do. Well, you can, but nobody except other brainless, monosyllabic yobs will agree with you, and you definitely can't claim to be civilised or reasonable. To back out in such a pathetic manner is to admit ungracious defeat.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:No Dom, you dont just rationalise points you do your damnedest to make Saddam the victim. This debate conversation whatever is over you deserve what ever tyrant you serve, you have no stomach for freedome only pretty white flags.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:How did I try to make Saddam look like the victim? I raise the issue that the Iraqi people are victims, and argue that the UN, and the US government in particular, has created this situation, where the Iraqi citizens are subdued and powerless under a dictatorship. This destroys the ability of the Iraqi people to live free lives and facilitate their own democratic society.

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Zaphod
member
Location: the lonesome crowded west, usa
Member Since: 11th May 2002
Total posts: 23
Posted:Holy Shit! This took a long time to read, I've read every reply so I have the history, although it almost seems like a futile discussion now.

I hope not to offend anyone with my opinion so please keep that in mind.

quote:Think for yourself, question authority--Dr. Timothy Leary

I for one never have or will support war. Why? Well becasue this disscussion is evidence enough of why war still exists in the world: people never seem to see eye to eye. People won't see eye to eye because human nature in itself is greedy and selfish. The only thing I feel that can save anyone of us is ture love and compassion. You can't solve hate with more hate. Its just an ongoing cycle a circle that has no end,it's like a dog chasing his tail.

Quite frankly I agree mostly with what Dom has been stating. Ray I have respect enough for your willingness to defend American citizens, but have we really been threatend to obliveration yet?

I see the September 11th attacks as a mean for Bush to gain his end: his hidden political agenda.

Bush would have never, ever been in office if it wasn't from his families wealth from oil. This is mostly about oil, and clout. The oil industry and trade is the only thing the American economy is standing upon right now. Without it we'd be helpless!

I have a firm suspicion of the American government.

The September 11th attacks are a little too convienent in my eyes. What better excuse to go to war with a government that American wasn't benefitting from. Before all that happened America approached the Taliban about building a huge oil pipeline through their country to tap it out from under the Caspian Sea. They said NO! And guess what happend? I'd put money on it that the American government will be putting a huge pipline through there now that the government is in their favor; in their best interest. If it hasn't already happened.

I know this may be a bit off topic, and for that, I apologize.

Lets face it, if the Middle East had nothing to offer to the American government would we even be there? This is just a war of ego, pride, greed, and selfishness. But then again I try to maintain a simplistic view about things.

quote:Overthinking overanalyzing separates the body from the mind, withering my intuition leaving opportunities behind....--TOOL

I will trust my intution over anything that the media, or people, claim to be "fact" to me it is more real than anything.

My intuition tells me that Bush is not at all a promising leader. The Homeland Security was appointed by dubya himself, therefore doesn't have to answer to congress for any action it takes. That to me is a cause for questioning. It is a loophole in the Constitution. Any appointed position from the president only answers to the president. To me, Bush is dumb like a fox. He appears stupid to fool everyone, its just a front. People see that and don't take what hes doing seriously.

9/11 is FEAR'S national holiday. People's fears arise and they look to their government for protection. The government sees this. They see it as a way of gaining more control over people's lives. Give up your freedom and you'll be safe. I say FUCK THAT.

The Bush Administration is just playing off of people's fear. They sit their and spout thier shit to make the public afraid of what "might" happen. The are gaining control by and from fear.

quote:There's no love in fear--TOOL

That's all I can think to say right now. I'll have more later I'm sure.

quote:Don't just call me pessimist, try and read between the lines--TOOL yet again.


DON'T PANIC

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Mike, if I dont go in and risk my neck, who will? You? Doubtfull, sorry man its not my neck that I am worried about, it's yours!

If I dont risk my neck who will ensure that you are able to finish your edjucation? I'm here for you, not those retards on the hill! I guess I just think it's interesting that you think my neck is at risk by Saddam and I don't see it that way.

Be that as it may, thank you for risking your neck on my behalf. Even if we don't see eye-to-eye on whether my neck is actually at risk, I truly am honored and grateful that you choose to stick your neck out for mine when you think my neck is in danger.

That said, if I ever feel like my neck (or any other American neck) is in danger due to a foreign force, you can bet that I'll be standing in line to offer what I've got to help keep America safe.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:And Ray and Dom? I think I'd rather see you two ignoring each-other than going at it like you are.

I really like both of you and it sucks to see you both fighting like this.

Do you guys think you can maybe chill the issues a bit? Like, without a flurry of finger-pointing first?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireMikeZ
FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US
Member Since: 24th Jul 2002
Total posts: 1438
Posted:Zaphod, Tim Leary is my role model!

(will explain that one to ya sometime)

quote:Originally posted by Zaphod:

quote:Think for yourself, question authority--Dr. Timothy Learyand Tool rocks!

quote:also posted by Zaphod:

quote:There's no love in fear--TOOL

[ 01 October 2002, 11:14: Message edited by: FireMike ]


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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FireMikeZ
FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US
Member Since: 24th Jul 2002
Total posts: 1438
Posted:Don't Attack Iraq Demo - Los Angeles Times article

peeps, i was too late to get the online text for this whole article. . . thought you in UK who attended might like to hear some of how you were covered on the US Pacific coast. . . so i have to type it in from the newspaper hardcopy.

since i'm still interested in hearing why Blair acts as spokesperson for US policy when it seems most of HM's subjects don't support the force of what he says (though a majority would support war if the UN approves, which is far far from Bush's position, and maybe never), i'll use my finger time to emphasize that part of the article. please, as i asked way above, why does he do it? really? i can't figure out WHY, is he planning on retiring to somewhere on a CIA pension?

[damn, browser lost a whole lot of article i typed in. i'll do it again in my text editor, then post it up in about an hour. here's a start, check back later. DONE, 8:10 PM PST.]

~
Los Angeles Times, The World section, Sunday, Sept 29, 2002

TALK OF AN IRAQ WAR RILES BRITONS
by William Wallace, special to the Times

Rally: Thousands march through London protesting the Blair and Bush administrations' steady press for a military solution

LONDON - Jeering President Bush and chanting "Not in our name!" tens of thousands of anti-war protesters tramped through central London on Saturday, massing in Hyde Park for a three-hour rally against what they see as the British and American governments' enthusiasm for a war with Iraq.

Aimed at stopping a conflict that has yet to start, the protest was a preemptive strike of its own by a peace movement angered at Prime Minister Tony Blair's support for the Bush administration against Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

Organizers said that more than 350,000 people -- some shouting "Shame!" as they passed Blair's 10 Downing St. residence -- marched from the demonstration's starting point near the Houses of Parliament.

London's Metropolitan Police estimates were lower, putting the crowd at about 150,000. And the numbers were certainly boosted by the fact that the rally was twinned with a demonstration calling for an independent Palestinian state.

But the marchers were the visible tip of deep public anxiety here about a war, especially if London and Washington acted without the backing of the United Nations.

Recent polls have shown that only one in five Britons would support such an attack, although the number rises to 70% in favor if a U.N. imprimatur was obtained.

[. . .]

"This is not about the defense of British interests. It's a war so a bunch of corrupt American politicians can get their hands on Iraqi oil," said London Mayor Ken Livingstone, a radical left-wing populist whose style and personal clashes led to his expulsion from Blair's Labor Party two years ago.

Livingstone's language was fully in keeping with the protest's tone.

[. . .]

Several speakers who mocked Blair for his "revolting love affair" with Bush.

[. . .]

But in Hyde Park on Saturday, the anger at the U.S. president and the prime minister -- whom one banner called "Bomber Bush, Bomber Blair" -- appeared synonymous.

"They are twins of evil," said Yvonne Ridley, a British journalist who gained fame here for being captured by the fundamentalist Taliban when she sneaked into Afghanistan before last year's U.S.-led bombing ousted the regime.

Ridley, now a full-time peace campaigner, said Blair's support for the American position makes him "a shallow, vain, self-serving hypocrite -- the 51st governor of the United States."

[. . .]

[former U.N. weapons inspector for the U.S., Scott Ritter] dismissed the Blair government's recently released dossier on Hussein's alleged arsenal of chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons as falling far short of "case for war."

He argued that "this document is not worth one drop of blood from an American soldier, a British soldier or an Iraqi civilian."

But Ritter also chastised those in the crowd shouting anti-American abuse.

"The American people can be your ally," he told them. "But we have an alcoholic at the wheel of American foreign policy in George W. Bush, and we need to reach in and grab the keys to the ignition away from him."

FireMike here: what a wonderful fire-lover's perspective on which to end our dip into this article!

The comment drew loud applause.

and for Ray: The former Marine also argued backstage with Ridley, who was wearing a T-shirt featuring an American flag -- with dollar signs and swastikas in place of stars -- and the slogan "Terrorist No. 1."

"I didn't like it," Ritter said in an interview. "I wore that flag on my sleeve in war, and I love my country. What I'm doing here is about being a good American -- about holding my country accountable to its standards -- and that's what I am here to tell these people.

"But this issue of war with Iraq is not going to be resolved in London," he said quietly. "It's going to be resolved in the United States, by Americans."

END OF ARTICLE

[ 01 October 2002, 15:25: Message edited by: FireMike ]


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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Fire_Emanator
member
Location: Australia
Member Since: 14th Aug 2002
Total posts: 96
Posted:Who are Hiroshima and Nagasake, and how can you be sure they have shit for brains??

[ 01 October 2002, 15:57: Message edited by: Fire_Emanator ]


Free your mind and your ass will follow!

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Cheers FireMike! Nice to see it getting reported over in the US. I was watching CNN last night and they mentioned the march as well.

Blair's currently right in it. There's a Labour party conference and there's loads of talk against him over a lot of issues, including the war. However the Labour party also know they can't get rid of him as without him they'd probably lose the next election.

MikeGinny, know what you're saying, but we're not fighting (much ), we're discussing. And it's always interesting.


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Dom:

MikeGinny, know what you're saying, but we're not fighting (much ), we're discussing. And it's always interesting.Ok, it just sounds to me like if it were in person, it might come to blows. I don't want either of you putting his hand through the monitor, ya know?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Nah, it wouldn't. I'm a pacifist. And I can run real fast!

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:If some of you guys haven't got it yet after 5 pages!

No one wins wars, not even the war of words.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireMikeZ
FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US
Member Since: 24th Jul 2002
Total posts: 1438
Posted:thanx, Dom, glad ya liked seeing da article.

so is anyone from Tony Blair land or who knows its beat gonna answer

WHY IS TONY BEING GEORGE'S TONGUE?


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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Bram....
member
Location: the arms of the Ganja Goddess
Member Since: 17th May 2002
Total posts: 1551
Posted:Because Bush has made Blair his bedroom bitch

You. Its whats for dinner!

As time passes, you realise all the mistakes you amde and the ones you wish you never did make.

The wave crashing on the beach

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lightbug
member
Location: arizona
Member Since: 24th May 2002
Total posts: 321
Posted:well i hope all you anti war protesters are real sure of yourself. i hope your all %100 positive that saddam is not planning on a vicious attack on somebody. personally i think you have your heads way up your asses if you think saddam is just gonna disappear quietly into history. dom, once again you are full of shit. where do you get your bullshit facts. we allowed saddam to break the no fly zone. i dont know what your reading but i have never seen anything remotely close to that. i know you think im stupid but i do study wars and it sounds to me like you just study lies. or you make up your own shit as you go along i cant decide. look guys i dont like war i dont like people getting hurt in any country. i just think its a real bad idea to put so much trust in a complete asshole like saddam. hes a slippery dirty killer. if you want to sit there and debate morales and sling mud at your goverment go right ahead. war isnt about morals, its about survival. i for one want to live.

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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Urban_Culture
member
Location: coventry, midlands, uk
Member Since: 21st Nov 2001
Total posts: 89
Posted:thanx fire mike, i was wonderin how the press in u.s would cover the march and now i know

lightbug i think ure stupid 2, we are not trusting sadam buy aposing to this bloody war!


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lightbug
member
Location: arizona
Member Since: 24th May 2002
Total posts: 321
Posted:quote:Hey, leave Lightbug alone. Him and I still control the world. here lightbug *hands lightbug a big stick* now beat him wif it Look at 'im go

LMAO

i know bram these fools think they own the world or sumfin... better recognize


drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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lightbug
member
Location: arizona
Member Since: 24th May 2002
Total posts: 321
Posted:quote: I believe your arguments, and especially lightbug's, are often driven from a more childish and insecure desire to attack me rather than to justify your belief that this war is worthwhile, which is the point of the thread.
well arent we the ego maniac... i know you think your just the smartest thing in the world but im not as impressed w/ you as you are. i personally think your an ass but that has nothing to do w/ my views on war or this topic. i really dont care about your opinion of me. you dont even know me. i happen to be very secure. i dont say anything that you cant verify through a reputable source. i seriously doubt you could say the same. if i dont make a mistake or say somthing that i later feel i made a mistake on im a big enough man to say i was wrong and im sorry. i understand your arguements just fine but what you propose puts a whole lot of peoples lives at risk to protect the rights of a select few who have no business being in power anyway. so i hope your actually secure w/ your opinions and not just letting your massive ego speak for you.


drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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lightbug
member
Location: arizona
Member Since: 24th May 2002
Total posts: 321
Posted:quote: lightbug i think ure stupid 2, we are not trusting sadam buy aposing to this bloody war! uhh.. yes that is exactly what your doing numb nuts.

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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FireMikeZ
FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US
Member Since: 24th Jul 2002
Total posts: 1438
Posted:quote:Originally posted by lightbug:
bram these fools think they own the world or sumfin... better recognizegood one!


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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Fire_Emanator
member
Location: Australia
Member Since: 14th Aug 2002
Total posts: 96
Posted:quote:Originally posted by lightbug:
[QB]well i hope all you anti war protesters are real sure of yourself. i hope your all %100 positive that saddam is not planning on a vicious attack on somebody. [QB]What everyone is 100% sure of, is that George (his ass) Bush is planning a vicious attack on somebody!


Free your mind and your ass will follow!

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lightbug
member
Location: arizona
Member Since: 24th May 2002
Total posts: 321
Posted:i wouldnt say vicious.. if all goes to plan saddam and his military should be the only ones envolved. the military has no interest in harming the people of iraq or anyone else who will stand down and let them do what they need to do.. anyone who wants to fight for saddam knows what there getting into and willingly place themselves in harms way. sucks to be them.

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:

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woody
member
Location: Northampton, UK
Member Since: 28th Jul 2001
Total posts: 99
Posted:Hmm back on the orginal topic.... here are my pics of the demo in London:

http://wood2.woodyland.org/pics/missions/dont_attack_iraq-london-28092002/page.shtml


Great day. a good turn out. Didn't run into any other poi types though :-(


Luv and Lemons.WoodyMrs Jaypher said, 'It's saferIf you've lemons in your head;First to eat, a pound of meat,And then to go at once to bed.

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