Forums > Videos > 'The Meatrix' and 'What Barry Says'~ Brilliant

Posted: 31st Mar 2005

>Interstellar travel my friend.

You must be joking! You make it sound so easy! By the time we could invent a way to do that (if it is possible) we'll be dead continuing at the rate we're
going at the moment.

>Its the next step in technological
>advancement and its not gonna happen if we have a perfectly
>good planet to live on.
So your argument is that we have to destroy our planet in order for interstellar travel to be invented ? !

Posted: 31st Mar 2005
NYC ~ I used to live in SF and i know a lot of americans who are a part of the solution. Plus look at britain, it's fecked!! President Blair is a complete metalist, the government have privatised about everything but the air we breath and we make most of our money from selling weapons to countries at war.

I don't really care if you eat meat, i don't particularly mind if you choose to stuff a big mac down your throat twice a day. I just wanna make sure that you understand the risks you are undertaking by doing so. Giving you some information so that you so you can make an informed choice. If you still wanna kill me and others around me then be my guest. I'm no saint afterall.

I can't believe people are getting so worked up about those two little videos, guilty conscience come back to haunt you? "GO BACK TO BED AMERICA, WE ARE IN CONTROL"

lame

Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

Posted: 31st Mar 2005
Naw... I loved the videos. Just showed the Meatrix to my vegitarian brother.

It was actually your comment about "lemme guess, you guys are from the USA" combined with UCOF's quote about America being a great big mistake combined with the endless pointless Americabashing that I see.

But I think you're gonna be surprised as to why.

Americabashing doesn't bother me because I'm American. I don't have that kind of pride for my country.

I think that foreigners who blame "America" for problems are being just as lazy and apathetic as the Americans they are trying to mock.

You want to blame Bush's foreign policy? Great! You want to blame the utter colapse of liberal leadership? Absolutely! You want to blame the selfishness associated with the level of consumerism that is so prevelant in America? I salute you! You want to blame CERTAIN SPECIFIC American corporations that exploit? Tell me what time the rally is!

But to blame "America" is LAZY. And that's why it bothers me.

But I'm not actually as worked up as I seem. It's just how I type.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 1st Apr 2005
NYC ~ I totally agree. My comment "lemme guess, you guys are from the USA" was purely because i had 3 negative replys to the meatrix video. To be perfectly honest the first thing that sprung to mind was that the 3 people who replied were from the states, and they were.

After living in america for a while i realised just how much your media controls the masses. When i came back to UK i could see how our media does the same thing ~ but just not quite so blaitantly, and not so well.

I like those 2 videos because they give me a sense that there are people in the world doing a little to sort it out. I certainly don't think the world's situation is irreversible. But it is critical. To turn round and say it doesn't matter that we are going exstinct is simply very naive, if you have this point of view you are entitled to it but i'm telling you now that you need to inform yourself better about what's going on because no sane person, who understands the reality of every human being on the planet dieing unnecessarily can say that it doesn't matter. I can say that absolutely because if this is your view then this clasifies you as being insane or at least psychotic.

2 more films that you should watch, especially if you live in america:

The Corporation : https://www.thecorporation.com/


Outfoxed : https://www.outfoxed.org/


You're gonna need to rent them, but if you can't then i'm sure they won't mind you downloading them. They are both excellent.

matt

Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

Posted: 1st Apr 2005
Oh, don't get me started on Fox.

[Wrote 32 things and erased them in the interest of sanity.

Yes. Fox Bad.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 2nd Apr 2005
Haha, yes I'm from the states. No, I do not vote Republican... actually I don't vote at all because there IS no other party in our country right now... the democrats have castrated themselves... I read two newspapers a day, one liberal and one conservative, though there's really no difference between the two. Our media does suck, and I don't watch TV anymore.

And I'm vegetarian. I also like Taoist philosophy which, if you know anything about it, maintains a strict adherence to the laws of nature.

Don't get me wrong, yes I see that things suck where we've put ourselves... and its our own damn faults. It would be great if we could all come together and change the way we are and live happily ever after... but we don't live in a fairy tale, and if you believe that is going to happen, thank God because there needs to be people as idealistic about such things as there are people who don't care.

I think we SHOULD do just that... I just don't think its realistic to believe it will ever happen anymore. At least not in my country. Maybe things are different over there... but my impression when I was acorss the pond was NOT too much different than it is here.

Rather, I believe that things evolve as they must. Change is not revolutionary (and never will be again, though at one point the population and organization of the world allowed for it). Things aren't going to change... you can look down the line and see whats coming... and its going to be a whole lot of bad and a whole lotta good. As a subscriber to taoist philosophy, I believe in the ultimate balance of reality. Its pointless to get involved because it will flow where it must when it must.

This is why I don't concern myself with it... not because I don't think its wrong. If I did, I wouldn't ACT the way you think I should (and I do for the most part I think). I just don't think it will matter if I try to change the mind of others because I realize most people are stuborn and won't get the hell off the fire until they get burned. When they do, things will change, as they will have done naturally anyway. While its GREAT that this information is out there, and it needs to be because its part of the process, you won't change anyone mind with "Scientific" predictions. I mean look at the monkey running my country... he still thinks global warming is stupid, and is getting ready to start drilling into the Alaskin wildlife preserve. Idiocy...

But such is life. I was once as idealistic as you seem to be. But the more I learned, the more I realized that BOTH sides are really being stuborn and silly. And thus I divorce myself from active involvment of the subject. All things will occur as they must. You seem to believe that my attitude is indoctrinated... but this is not the case. I am as adamently against my system as you are... and I live my life as such. But I am not so sure of myself to believe that I am right...

My philosophy majors hate me for this... they can't pin me down because I never believe I'm right. As such very few people really understand why I say what I do, even when its obviously against what I really believe. I do what works for me. I adapt to what I must, what I can't control. That is my way.

Posted: 2nd Apr 2005
This is too much, it really is.

'I also like Taoist philosophy which, if you know anything about it, maintains a strict adherence to the laws of nature'

'Its pointless to get involved because it will flow where it must when it must.'

Firstly: you can't fail to adhere to the laws of nature. That's why they are laws. You don't get the option of whether gravity applies to you or not. So 'strict adherence . . . ' is nonsensical.

Secondly: stuff 'flows' in virtue of your actions, not in spite of them. It's just wrong to say 'I'm either going to die of cancer or I'm not, so I might as well smoke if I want to.' And can you imagine how utterly shite it would be if all of the world's charitable organisations suddenly thought '[censored] it, we can't mess with Fate, so why bother giving these people food?'

Thirdly: you claim that change 'never will be [revolutionary] again'. How on earth can you know that? Maybe you have some privileged access to the future which the rest of us don't. Then again, I bet the Romans never expected that slavery would be abolished.

Attitudes to race, sexual orientation, and social obligation are still changing. Do you honestly think that this has nothing to do with individual effort?

'I just don't think it will matter if I try to change the mind of others because I realize most people are stuborn '

Argh! Just because *most* people are stubborn doesn't mean that it isn't worth the effort. Maybe you only need to change one or two people to make it worthwhile.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as a bit harsh, but the one hope that humanity has left is for people who have the ability and the inclination to think, to do so, and to act accordingly. It's not arrogance to believe that you're right when you campaign against racism, homophobia, etc. Those who opposed Hitler's 'final solution' weren't being cocky; nor would they have been right to think that the fact that 'all things will occur as they must' should serve as some kind of excuse for inaction.

Fatalism is badly flawed, and inaction of the kind which you seem to be proposing is either lazy, or downright wrong. The last thing that this world needs is people opting out of the battle.

e / q

p.s. if you still think that determinism implies fatalism, I strongly suggest you take a look at the relevant sections of the introductory volume entitled 'philosophy', edited by A C Grayling. daniel dennett's 'elbow room' is also worth a look, though on a slightly different subject.

ture na sig

Posted: 2nd Apr 2005
Hmm... yes I spose I was a little loose with my terms there... should have qualified it a bit more I guess. I struggled over what word to use there, and "laws of nature" is what came out... Obviously not what I meant to say. What I meant to say is they have the idea that things are perfect without being messed with so they try to live in harmony instead of destroying things. Your right, it is nonsensical because EVERYTHING is Natural in this sense. However there are other reasons Religious Taoists livein this harmonistic way whcih perhaps we can talk about privatly if you would like...

What I meant to get across was not that you should be inactive. There are times to act and time to not act. I chose not to fight with people about these kinds of things (Whether you should or should not do something) because life isnt supposed to be one thing over another. However I still live MY life the way I THINK it should be lived. HOWEVER I'm not running around proclaiming my self to be right, because I could be completely wrong.

Things flow by virtue of action, but always to a null state. Yes, any good cause is ultimately pointless (Like the King Ozymandius story), and so is any bad cause. Both are necessary to equal the other, but the ebb and flo is continuous. Instead of occupying myself fighting I am living my path, on which it is no longer of great concern to me because of the wisdom I believe myself to have but don't believe to be right. Except for me. In which case its right. Or something.

As for change never being revolutionary, yea I know I was kicking myself for including that bit already. Revolutionary change of that type I don't see working unless the entire system fails, and with the redundancy ofthe systems we have in place now, I do not see that as probable. But not impossible of course... which is why I was kicking myself. Even if it were revolutionized though, the cycle would eventually return to an even more massive deficite to equal out the system. Ebb and flo.

See... for you inaction in this cause is wrong... but not for me. And not for a whole lot of other people because our concern is not with such causes. I just like to argue so I posted some weird views to generate discussion. And because some of them I actually subscribe to for me.

Anyway, I didn't want to hijack the thread, just put forth a view that is like those against you, but from a completely opposite motivational perspective. But I spose a clip like that was bound to start discussion...

p.s. Determinism and Free will are both wrong. And both right. Cheers!

Posted: 2nd Apr 2005
Oh I love the second video BTW man! That was sweet.

Posted: 2nd Apr 2005
Beefy:

'I chose not to fight with people about these kinds of things (Whether you should or should not do something) because life isnt supposed to be one thing over another'

I disagree with your decision. Strongly. You must fight with people over whether or not you should do something. Inaction is what lets evil win.

Maybe things always flow to a null state [whatever the hell that is] in the end. But the end-state isn't all that matters; how you get there is also important. For instance, we all die in the end, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't pay attention to how we live.

Secondly, your stance is hypocritical. A hypocrite is someone who says one thing but does another. So if I run around saying 'eating meat is wrong', but have steak for lunch every day, I'm being hypocritical. Likewise, living as if you think you're right, but not saying that you are, is hypocritical. Effectively, you're saying 'hey, I don't think I'm right', but behaving as if you think you are.

Furthermore, you don't have to rule out the possibility that you might be wrong in order to think that you're right. For instance, I think that the Earth orbits the Sun. I also admit that it's *possible* [although extremely unlikely] that I'm wrong; perhaps something really weird is going on. But what matters is that I've got a justified belief that the Earth orbits the sun. Given that, I'm prepared to behave as if it does.

You say 'See... for you inaction in this cause is wrong... but not for me'. Crap. If there's a baby drowning in a pond, it's just as wrong for you to fail to act as it would be for me to fail to act. Whether something is right or wrong depends on facts about the act, not about the assessor. Whether Hitler was wrong to massacre the Jews is a matter of the gross violations of human rights, and creation of vast amounts of suffering: it's not my disapproval of his actions which makes his deeds wrong.

Hence my general problem with moral relativism. Things aren't wrong because you don't do them, they're wrong in virtue of features of the actions themselves. And if you're going about things the right way, you'll avoid doing stuff that's wrong - because it's wrong. Your account just has things back to front.

Determinism - well, maybe it's false. Current quantum mechanics would have us subscribe to something like 'parameterised' determinism, where events are determined within parameters. But I thought you were claiming that it was true, in your 'whatever must happen, happens' claim.

As for free will - that's a concept, not a theory. And concepts can't be right or wrong (c.f. 'red' is a concept - but it can't be right or wrong).

I'd be more than happy to engage in a debate with you over this. My email is im4985@bristol.ac.uk.

best wishes

e

ture na sig

Posted: 3rd Apr 2005
Oh your a virtue ethics person... haha we're never going to agree. I am very much in the relativist category and because we disagree on this basic precept despite the fact that we may or may not end up with the same beliefs, but for different reasons.

It is not hypocritical at all. I am not just a moral relativist: I am a complete relativist. I do not believe in Truth period. However this does not mean I am going to sit around doing nothing. I will do what is true for me. But I don't think Im Right in the sense that Im willing to pass judgement on someone elses actions unless it actively gets in my way.

Further as a relativist, I dont believe in absolutes period... like good and evil. Theres no fight between dualities for me. I still do good things, just for completely different reasons. And I'll continue to act the way I think is right. And Im sure everyone else will too. Good and evil are inseperable sisters.

Anyway, I'll just e-mail you now... We're getting too far outside of the topic.

Posted: 3rd Apr 2005
how can you pass judgement on your own actions, if you cant pass judgement on anyone elses? If you are a complete relativist you must also be completely confused.



If you are a complete relativist - you must not be able to fault the behaviour of ppl like Hitler, in fact, you couldnt even say the holocaust was wrong at all. You talk about having reasons for doing good acts - what are they? Do you have a concept of fairness? If you do, you cannot be a relativist.



Your point about not judging someone unless it gets directly in your way implies a false distinction between yourself and the rest of the society you live in. No man (or woman) is an island. Your actions have a measurable impact on those around you (and vice versa), whatever you believe.



It sounds like you're not a complete relativist, the description of your philosophical perspective sounds a lot more like Egoism. An Egoist solves moral dilemmas by choosing the option that serves them most.



Josh

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

Posted: 3rd Apr 2005
Hey everyone, this all seems to have turned into a philosophy class, that's not really what i intended but it all makes for interesting reading.

Beefy: glad you like the second video. I dig it a lot. I kinda understand your position on this now, i have no trouble with it. Personally i don't believe there is absolute good or evil and that every truth is but a half truth. In Taoism there is the balance you speak of, and everything happens as it's intended to and all that. Thing is there are people in the world who don't even know that the meat they eat has been pumped full of toxins. All i'm saying is if you wanna eat meat, you might want to buy good quality meat and learn how to cook vegetables well.

The indroduction of manmade chemicals into the environment happend really recently, like within the last hundred years, and mainly only in the last fifty years. That's soooo recent, 2 generations have allowed a sh1t load of toxins into the environment. I think it's pretty rediculous to think nothing's gonna change this. All it takes is for people to be informed ~ hopefully most people will tend towards a positive outcome. Critical mass gets breached and it's all good.

I'm too hung over for all this, gonna take a shower.

laters

Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

Posted: 5th Apr 2005
Not at all Josh. I can pass judgement on myself, and only myself. Judgement is a subjective thing which I am trying to show is only being thought to be RIGHT in these cases BECAUSE of social reinforcement. As I am not a virtue ethicist, this is not a problem for me. Your right, I do judge others a lot... but I try my very best not to, and I really hold very few concrete beliefs that apply to anyone besides myself.

Your absolutly right though. Outside of human judgement of them, the actions of such people can't be judged better or worse than any other because the universe takes no favorites. Do I have a concept of fairness? Sure, if I invoked such a concept and BELIEVED it was right then I would be confused. The modern human being is very much judgemental. I try not to be, though I do slip into judgemental stances a lot... But I DO constantly try to remember to be skeptical of my own judgements because I DON'T believe that such concepts are right.

There is a false distinction here? I disagree. The judgements I make involving my own actions apply only to myself, obviously. I can not seperate myself from the world around me, your quite correct. How I respond to said world is another matter entirely. Other peoples actions do effect me, you are correct. When they do, I make judgements about them to determine what path I should take next. This is a very important survival mechanism... but I am judging not their actions intrinsicly, but how their actions will affect me.

Really? Is that what egoism is? Well then by that definition I guess I am... and so is everyone else. But I am also a relativist because I don't believe that there are any absolutes. Not even me being an absolute egoist, as I usualy dont do merely what is good for me.

Oh I hold no illusions about our wholesale destruction and silly way of life. We do in fact do some pretty stupid stuff. A lot of it is what has allowed us to grow in population size to the point have. The kinds of problems we have will not be stopped though, only slowed. They are still inevitable ends of the cycle. Any possitively naturalistic way of living to STOP it is unrealistic though. It just aint going to happen. For political, economical, social, psychological and a host of other reasons.

And as I try not to live my life that destructive way, Im happy to watch everyone else do what they want to hurt themselves in the end. I can always move. Which is why my post came across so sarcastic and arrogant... Suffering is inevitable. I will try my best to adapt or die. That is the way of the Savage Garden.

But for the record... I really agree with both of those videos for my personal life...

Posted: 2nd Jun 2005
This is definately a good video...unfortunately, too many people are far too narrow-minded to care about actual issues or things that don't affect them directly.

On another note, I do think we seriously need something done about overpopulation so there is one plus to mass amounts of poeple dieing.

Those that just wont listen will just have to suffer for their own stupidity and ignorance.

I'm not strange... I'm just not like you.

Posted: 12th Jun 2005
10 years ago there was an ongoing genocide in the county of TIMBUCKTOO, and the USA came in, stopped the genocide, gave the people their own democratic government and free elections, and then left. And you are still whining about how the USA "declared war" on the poor innocent people of TIMBUCKTOO?!?!?!?, and did it for corperate greed, killing millions of innocent babies, and blah blah blah....



Saddly, our youth are dieing to give freedom to a bunch of people who don't have the will power to do it for themselves, like we the people in the USA did back in 1776. Nothing would make me happier than for all our troops to come home, set up camp across the mexican boarder (to keep out the arab illegals) and let the rest of the world tear itself apart.



That's what you all are advocating, right? We should have let the muslims in yugoslavia get genocided, we should let nuttbag kim dung stock pile nukes in korea untill he has enough to wipe out japan and lob a few at USA and sell some to the terrorists, we should let the arab muslims genocide the black muslims in africa, and we should have let Saddam continue to kill his own people by the hundreds of thousands with weapons of gas destruction. And we should have left Saddam in charge of the torture in Iraq, cause he does it right, (not wimpy half hearted tortures such as making bad guys stand naked in front of women, or pissing on their bible), but REAL torture, like cutting off body parts and killing people for thinking about freedom.



I know it is painful.... REALITY CHECK



I know our world is FUBAR, but whining about the great evils of the USA (while your own country (government) is doing just as may of the things you are whining about) is called hypocracy, the last time I checked.



Personaly, I look forward to the oil crash. We all know (in our hearts) that that is the only way things will change. They will change when they must, humans are to content and brainwashed to do otherwise. As long as they can plop down in front of the TV after work and say "entertain me", they aren't going to spend one minute educating themselves (reading) about the reasons our world is going to self destruct.



Corperate greed will continue to produce gas guzzling SUVs, and refuse to build solar powered cars.



Corperate greed will continue to buy up family farms and turn them into flithy meat factories.



Corperate greed will continue to raise beef in canada, ship it to mexico for processing, then ship it to USA for consumption WASTED OIL



They will do it as long as they can, so they can make as much money as they can before it all comes crashing down.



BLAME WAL-MART

we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

Posted: 12th Jun 2005
But, do not lose hope. After all the easily obtainable, cheap oil is gone (and the military controls what little is left) , humans will be forced to grow their own food localy, and stop driving cars, and stop shipping our troops overseas to stop genocides (conserving oil will become more important than conserving lives), and stop importing/buying cheap junk from China...... happy day!

we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

Posted: 13th Jun 2005
um Dantana? who put Saddam in power in the first place? The US CAUSED the instability of the middle east - and now youre blaming them - and killing them at the same time?

As far as I'm concerned, the people of the US are move over a barrel than just about every 'fundamentalist' people in the world. I mean, you guys dont even seem to know your government are assholes. At least the Iraqis knew Saddam was bad. Fox News is your Matrix dream world- and youre all plugged in..supporting a way of life almost none of you are lucky enough to live.

If the US ever did stop meddling in the ways of the world, the US economy would crumble in a second, because its not able to live without the inequality it was built on. It needs to be fed developing economies in order to survive. And to talk about democracy as an american you should be ashamed! your government was elected by a system widely accepted to be rigged.

These points only scratch the surface of what I could say. Im hardly a fan of the US government. You suggest that America has stopped genocides, but all Ive seen was America dragging its feet on all issues of human rights unless it has a vested economic interest in sorting out the problems, in which case it waltzes in guns blazing and usually makes a crock of it. Look at Vietnam for eg. Dropped more bombs than there were people in the country, and still completely lost...creating millions of refugees in the process. Afghanistan the same, and Iraq is turning out the same. Yeah run home to your SUVs and leave the dead overseas where you cant see them - makes it easier to forget..easier to write crap on the internet.

Love and Light

~*~ Katinca ~*~