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Jo


Jo

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Location: Sheffield, England

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Posted:There are many definitions of inteligence out there - but I'm going to define it simply for this thread:...

Inteligence includes self awareness and creativity.

Also, for the sake of this thread, I'm asuming Darwin was just about right with his thoughts. wink


At the moment no computer/program can be considered even close to achieving AI.

However, I think the seeds of an accelerated artificial evolution have been sewn.

Inteligence took millions of years to evolve from single cell organisms. Now many species on earth can be considered intelligent.

I'm thinking this process is beginning on-line right now.

Computer viruses can replicate/adapt at astonishing speed compared to anything in nature.

The Internet provides an infinite arena of 'genetic engineering' and growth.

The next stage I think is the evolution of 'artificial animals'...

Evolved, mutated, and/or combined viruses that have lost their initial intensions and are bumbling around cyberspace oblivious to the fact they are destined to become vastly more intelligent than humans... through natural/artificial selection...

what ya think?

I reckon this scenario is far more likely than a human stumbling accross the key to consciousness...

Jo. confused


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onewheeldave
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Posted:I'd say there's three options in the 'race' to AI : -



1. intentional creation of an intelligence by human programers



2. intentional creation of a unit which has a basic 'learning program', which, when placed in a long-term human social system, acquires intelligence much as a human baby does



3. the development you're talking about, ie evolution from viruses on the net (ie no human intention involved)



----------------



Of those I'd say that 1 won't happen, and 2 probably will.



3 I think is a good possibility, and it's one I've thought about myself quite a lot.



Some things I think about 3 : -



a) we wouldn't necessarily know that much about it until it's very well developed



b) it might be a case of having to deliberatly look for it, in the way that currently scientists look for signs of extra-terrestial life amongst inter-stellar radio waves (along with the issues of how intelligence would manifest amongst those signs)



c) 'computer time' bears no relation to our time- a process run at high processing speeds is effectively 'time-speeded up'. This would mean that the bigger and faster the net gets, the faster 'evolution' would progress.



Lastly, and this is something I've mentioned before, of all the Gigillions of viruses on the net at the moment, can we say that all of them were created by human hackers?



I'm suggesting that maybe some could have arrisen due to random data corruption that happened to result in a self-replicating data structure. This would fit in with your evolution hypothesis.


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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

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Posted:Written by: Jo
Computer viruses can replicate/adapt at astonishing speed compared to anything in nature





Computer viruses can't adapt at all, other than a bit of crappy AI they may have. They're just programs. There's no such thing as a computer virus that's evolved itself. All the variants of computer viruses you see have happened as a result of programmer intervention, generally by someone whose far too lame to ever write anything themselves, but fancies the idea of modifying a few lines of code and feeling that they're really clever. As for speed of replication, I really don't think you can compare telecom infrastructure to organic infection.



Written by: Jo
what ya think?





Sounds like you've watched too many films wink


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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

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Posted:I just got this off Google

its interesting reading, im only about half way through so far

http://www.carlzimmer.com/articles/2005/articles_2005_Avida.html


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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

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Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

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Posted:Hmmmm...

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg14119153.300


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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

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Posted:Written by: flid
Computer viruses can't adapt at all, other than a bit of crappy AI they may have.

i think the word current is missing from that statement, i think the sort of thing jo is talking about is the sort of research being done at places like the sandia national labs into cyber agents but the evil version of bear in mind this articles now 5 years old (hehe i remember reading that when i started my phd ubblove happy days) .

Written by: flid
There's no such thing as a computer virus that's evolved itself.

at the moment maybe thats debateable, is it possible? definately, take the work of Adrian Thompson at the center for computational neuroscience at the university of sussex, hes using evolutionary techinques with genetic algorithms on FPGAs (field programable gate arrays) so create circuits to solve a problem making use of physical phenomenon that we dont know about, one example of his work is a tone discriminator, your average geeky university professor would most likely tell u that its impossible to make one with 100 cells, however Thompsons work is able to do it with just 32 cells, 5 of the cells where only connected to each other and no other part of the circuit but taking them away caused the circuit to fail. Point being artificial evolution can go through thousands of generations very quickly if its directed to a particular task and can evolve things that make use of relations that we arnt even aware of and function in ways that we dont understand.

Written by: onewheeldave
Lastly, and this is something I've mentioned before, of all the Gigillions of viruses on the net at the moment, can we say that all of them were created by human hackers?

I'm suggesting that maybe some could have arrisen due to random data corruption that happened to result in a self-replicating data structure. This would fit in with your evolution hypothesis.

Its possible but highly improbible, heres why, the random data corruption would have to result in it not only self replicating but also transmitting to another machine, whats more the code has to be run to replicate in running if its corrupt then the application thats using it will fail and result in human intervension of some form. Id agree they arnt all written by hackers though i recon the vast majority are written by the antivirus companys

Written by: Jo
At the moment no computer/program can be considered even close to achieving AI.

by your definition of intelligence surely computer game badies in the newer video games are intelligent, they have a self awareness of their life/body (restricted movement for injuries) and adapt to the players game play hence creativity so that each time the game is played its different. defining intelligence its very very tricky. also chess was once considered a game requiring much intelligence but the world chess champion was defeated back in 97 (if memory serves)

Written by: Jo
Evolved, mutated, and/or combined viruses that have lost their initial intensions and are bumbling around cyberspace oblivious to the fact they are destined to become vastly more intelligent than humans... through natural/artificial selection...

I think for such a thing to happen would require a "god" program to be unleashed onto the internet to hunt out viruses give them dna and a genetic breading program that introduces random mutations. a similar less evil version of programs evolving and roaming round a network with different nodes on the network having different conditions for adaption has been done before, i think it was called cosmos.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Jo


Jo

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Location: Sheffield, England

Total posts: 517
Posted:Ado-P great link! smile



Flid, my ideas never come from movies mate (well.. T3 was a great film I guess... wink ). I have studied AI quite a bit in the past and this is to my mind the route AI will take.



I agree with Dave about the three main possibilities - and a combination of 2 & 3 seems possible/likely (especially after reading Ado-Ps link.



Computer viruses are every bit as unpredictable in their mutations as single cell lifeforms (either 'genetically' changed by a hacker, or combined/changed randomly)



They are also being constantly 'hunted' which WILL lead to natural selection IMO.



Ben-ja-men,

Do computer game baddies know WHY they are such baddies, in fact do they have any idea how much pain they cause at the end of each level? Do they decide not to fight, but to create some cool new weapons for themselves?



nope.



I think the self-awareness and creativity elements of intelligence are the stumbling blocks for most current wannabe AI creators.



GOD is simply selection imo. smile



Jo. smile

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

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Posted:Jo the main difference i see between the cellular automata situation like in ado-p's link and the situation you are talking about with viruses randomly evolving is that the CA's are set up in conditions conducive to yielding results and cultivating "life" where as viruses arnt just in tough conditions they exist in conditions designed to kill them

viruses compete with not only each other but reformating and anti virus software
viruses currently arnt equiped to evolve enough to beat the antivirus clean ups as they have a signature of sorts which is how they survive

"They are being constantly 'hunted' which WILL lead to natural selection IMO. "
i disagree, in that at the moment they dont evolve enough i doubt very much that many people would have heard of the Lehigh virus and i think the only place you would find it would be in virus collectors library. you could argue that back in the early 80s viruses where almost non existent then in the early 90s there where somewhere around 1000 known viruses and now well id hate to guess how many there are now. yes they are changing but its the programmers who are changing them. If they take the cyber agent road then yes i agree with your statement however this will require an intentional human design rather than occuring randomly, monkeys typewritters shakespear n all that.

while computer game baddies might not know (at the moment) that they are baddies or what their motivations are, they do have goals and drives. does my pet dog not realising that it is my pet stop it from being conscious? or does me not realising that i am apart of my dogs pack stop me from being conscious? they might not have a human level of consciousness but computer game baddies do react to their surrounding and they do change from their interactions and they do have a concept of their form.

self awareness is a tricky thing to measure. there is currently no test for human intelligence that im aware of for a machine to take to verify that a machine is intelligent, creative or self aware. lots of tests have been proposed like the turing test, total turing test, ultimate turing test, lady lovelaces test, virtual turing test, truely total turing test and several others i cant think of off the top of my head but they are all flawed for various reasons. largely because its very difficult to define what the human quality of intelligence is without actually being that other entity.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

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Posted:FPGAs are great, and I don't rule out the fact that computer programs could become advanced enough to create basic AI and show animal traits, but as for programs malfunctioning, surely that's a bug? Computers don't write programs themelves (at current)

It is remotely possible (but not on today's hardware) that in the future a bug like you describe *could* happen, but i'm highly sceptical. It shouldn't be called a virus, there's a fundamental difference between today's viruses and what you describe. Computer viruses arn't *that* complex, but a not likely the sort of thing which could easily come from randomness/mutation. And anyway, if it did, infected computers could just be disconnected/turned off, it's not like infection of animals.


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ben-ja-men
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ben-ja-men

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Posted:computers can write programs albeit very simple ones thats exactly what the tone discriminator did if signal > threshold then a else b.

i agree that i dont think its likely that programs malfunctioning will evolve viruses. i do think the evil version of the cyber agents will cause big problems. especially if the initial infection of the computer comes from something like the slammer worm which managed to infect around 75,000 computers in 10 minutes, which simply opens a port and downloads the base code for the evil version of cyber agent


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Jo


Jo

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Location: Sheffield, England

Total posts: 517
Posted:Ben-ja-men,

yeah, there's a lot to be thought about within 'intelligence'



I oversimplified to avoid debating that too much... I mean...



no-one could really argue that a game charactor has intelligence... can they??... wink



there's a lot more to 'self awareness' and 'creativity' than appearing to possess those traits - and like you said though, it's hard to test for.



I actually think cyberspace does fairly accurately represent the early stages of earth evolution..



Although the environment is 'designed' to kill viruses etc, that could be said of the natural madness that was Earth. Life still prevailed, and without 'god' agents imho - although those agents could of course serve to accelerate or spark the process.



Flid,



I think you're closing your mind a little thinking of what appears to be possible. Remember... mutation is pretty random whatever its means.



Like Dave mentioned, this type of 'evolution' could go completely unnoticed as by definition, the original nature of the program changes.



So turning off a computer won't help, because you wouldn't necesarily know it was there (stealth is a natural selection virtue)



And it doesn't at all need to be a complex program. First a one cell organism.



adapt, adapt, adapt...



then 2, then 3.



A virus is a perfect name for a one cell organism that embeds itself inside a hosts genetics...



until it becomes a 2 cell organism...



Jo. smile

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

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Posted:Written by: ben-ja-men


i agree that i dont think its likely that programs malfunctioning will evolve viruses.



We should be able to work out mathematically whether it's possible, likely, or inevitable that this has happened.

I'll supply the reasoning, hopefully others can supply some basic facts: -

1. Firstly, what's the lower limit in file size, in Bits, that a self-replicatingvirus type program can be (or what's typical actual sizes of virus files)?

2. What's (roughly) the amount of data (in Bits) content of the whole web?

(as a small digression, which may be relevant later, does anyone here know (roughly) how much data the human brain can hold?)

3. On average, what proportion of computer process actions create a corruption of data?

-----------

The reasoning here is that errors occur, a set of data that has a certain content, becomes a set of data with a different content.

The probability of that second set of data being self-replicating is very small; but if self-replicating programs file sizes are small enough, and the 'data-based-world' they inhabit (the web) is big enough, then that probability could approach certainty.


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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

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Location: Adelaide, Australia

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Posted:Written by: Jo
no-one could really argue that a game charactor has intelligence... can they??... wink /quote] that they currently have a human level of intelligence, definately not, that they can have a human level of intelligence theres alot of scope for discussion there, that they have some form of intelligence once again its debateable. do dogs have intelligence? do ants have intelligence? do plants have intelligence? do bacteria have intelligence? wheres the line get drawn?

Written by: Jo

I actually think cyberspace does fairly accurately represent the early stages of earth evolution..

which era of earth are u refering to? hadean where it was devoid of life being a big molten glob but full of chemicals? Archaean where there was rain and seas full of chemicals? proterozoic when there where cool things like dna and rna running around and cells n stuff starting to emerge? can you elaborate on what you see the similarities to be

Written by: Jo
Although the environment is 'designed' to kill viruses etc, that could be said of the natural madness that was Earth.

i disagree, the nature of the rain and moltern earth caused cracks in the ocean floor which poured out bubbles of steam full of chemicals and gases which could only result in life. if you get two flasks join them with tubing one with water in it and the other containinthe gases in the atmosphere at the time boil the water let it mix and zap it with electricity (simulating lightning) at the end of a week or so you will have lots of organic compounds including amino acids that are only produced in living organisms. this was done at yale back in teh 50s, later on they also managed to produce fatty acids and the chemical compounds that are the building blocks of dna and rna. because of the madness on earth life was bound to emerge


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

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Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

1. Firstly, what's the lower limit in file size, in Bits, that a self-replicatingvirus type program can be (or what's typical actual sizes of virus files)?

around the 2 kb size for a well written virus

however things to bear in mind are where it replicates to has a very big effect on how effective it would be on the web, also the selfreplication alone is not enough its the rest of it that also has to be correct, most importantly though the code has to be executed, as far as ones and zeros go i might have the melissa virus in my avitar picture but the way it is executed it doesnt matter

Written by: onewheeldave

2. What's (roughly) the amount of data (in Bits) content of the whole web?


LOL
um lets assume the population of the world is around 6,000,000,000, and lets assume that there 1 computer for every 100 people and each computer has a 10 gig hd (remember not everyone has wizz bang computers)
and lets say half of them are online so your looking at around
600,000,000 gig of data on people computers which are connected to the web

Written by: onewheeldave

(as a small digression, which may be relevant later, does anyone here know (roughly) how much data the human brain can hold?)

the average brain has 100,000,000,000 neurons which are interconnected with up to around 10,000 interconnections, also its now thought that memories may not necessarily be stored at any one point of the brain but may possibly be the superposition pattern of all the neurons firing, so um looooooots

Written by: onewheeldave

3. On average, what proportion of computer process actions create a corruption of data?


hmmmm with microsoft? to be totally honest the only times ive ever had files corrupt is when ive had a known virus. also the size of the data corrupted would vary in length as well as if it would get run again or just cause the program to malfunction. if random ones and zeros get corrupted its not necessarily going to translate into meaningful instructions the chances of it changing into meaningful instructions and the programs still working and it referencing valid memory addresses to copy to i would hate to think


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

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Posted:so assuming we go for the 2 kb program
2kb= 2000 bytes = 16 000 bits (0 or 1s)
so for the program to work it requires all 16000 bits to take the correct value theres a 1 in 2 chance for each one so theres a
1 in 3 x 10 ^ 4816 chance of that

now assuming that for every person it happens once a day (waaaay more than it does) with the correct length and the code gets reexecuted. it would take 5 x 10 ^ 4808 days

even if there where 1000 000 different programs of that length that work and do it it just knocks 6 more zeros off so 4808 becomes 4806.

like i said its a possibility but very unprobable


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

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Posted:this is a great thread.



would like to add some things.



someone on hop said this a while back in a thread about virus's



Written by:
Any sufficiently complex system will exhibit nondeterministic behaviour





I dont understand all this next bit but i get the jist. I came across it while reading about the above.



Written by:


Systems that follow the second law of thermodynamics evolve with time to maximal entropy and complete disorder, destroying any order initially present. Cellular automata are examples of mathematical systems which may instead exhibit ``self-organizing'' behaviour (1) Even starting from complete disorder, their irreversible evolution can spontaneously generate ordered structure. One coarse indication of such self-organization is a decrease of entropy with time. This paper discusses an approach to a more complete mathematical characterization of self-organizing processes in cellular automata, and possible quantitative measures of the ``complexity'' generated by them. The evolution of cellular automata is viewed as a computation which processes information specified as the initial state. The structure of the output from such information processing is then described using the mathematical theory of formal languages (e.g. [6--8]). Detailed results and examples for simpler cases are presented, and some general conjectures are outlined. Computation and formal language theory may in general be expected to play a role in the theory of non-equilibrium and self-organizing systems analogous to the role of information theory in conventional statistical mechanics.





Computational Theory



There are already plenty of these around. See these heavy hitters as an example.



http://www.top500.org/lists/2004/11/
br>


was reading somewher earlier about the development of systems intelligent enough to recognize any abnormal behaviour (port scanning, trojans etc.) and then take approriate measures to contain rectify the incident. They were building in an immune system. They were looking at building protection from attackers that sometimes take years to probe and scan huge complex networks for weaknesses. As dave said above. Time has little meaning for digital actions.



I was thinking about daves calculation and somthing flid said in another thread came back to me. And its that when it comes ot virus's, the home users are small fish. Think of the incredible network of technology that supports big business, banks, stock markets and most importantly, telecommunications.



Add to that large scale storge to support all this. Tens of thousands of machines are sold every year with hundreds of terabytes of storage space in high end machines. Then there is the petabyte drive... thats alot of space for a few bugs to play around in.



There is also the grid to think about. Its incredible.



As for AI.



If is has thoughts it is a virus right?

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Jo


Jo

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Location: Sheffield, England

Total posts: 517
Posted:Ben-ja-men,



For this thread, intelligence = self aware and creativity. Not just appearance of. I know we can't test for it so it's impossible for us to draw the line, but for me:



Dogs yes

Ants maybe

Plants no



Which period of Earth?



proterozoic when there where cool things like dna and rna running around and cells n stuff starting to emerge.



I rekon, food = electricity (provided)

rna and dna = code

cells = viruses and code 'objects'



The bubbles of steam full of chemicals and gases which could only result in life are humans tinkering and creating with computers. The chemicals and gas are already there in the form of cyberspace and current hardware/software. We're heating them into steam...



I disagree that the maths is relavent, although super interesting smile reason:



I'm talking mutation/adaptation across millions of generations changing one thing into another bit by bit.



I'm sure the leap won't be instant and from scratch (and the maths proves that to an extent I guess)





Jo smile




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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

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Posted:hehe oh aidan why oh why did you have to bring the second law of thermodynamics into this tongue hehe ok for those who want to keep reading but find aidans quote to be mind bending what it basically says is that
the universe is winding down (second law of thermodynamics)
that the universe is becoming more and more disordered
disorder is measured by a concept called entropy
in the universe energy in useful forms is slowly being dissipated out from where it was used into space via heat, this causes an increase in entropy
systems that have order ie you and i have low entropy
we are good at creating disorder (ie giving off heat)
so effectively we cheat the second law by creating a net increase in entropy


ok joe lets say for arguements sake that ants posess the level of structure for this self replicating evolving virus. an ant has 100,000 neurons each neuron has multple conections each with a different weighting (ie you need numbers to model each weight) so lets assume each weighting can be modelled with an integer (32 bits but lets say for arguements sake we only need 8 bits so we can have values from 0 to 256) so lets assume that the average neuron has 10 interconnections so we need 80 bits for each neuron which means we are going to need 8 000 000 bits so what your looking at now is needing to have 8 000 000 sequential bits just for the memory alone, this is not taking into account the structure that will run it. so you have to have all the bits have the correct value so you have a one in 2 ^ 8 000 000 which is to big for the poor little calculator program

"I rekon, food = electricity (provided) "
i would say the electricity was more of a catalyst in that it caused the innert gases to react

"rna and dna = code
cells = viruses and code 'objects' "
agreed

"The bubbles of steam full of chemicals and gases which could only result in life are humans tinkering and creating with computers. The chemicals and gas are already there in the form of cyberspace and current hardware/software. We're heating them into steam... "
I disagree in that the tinkering is being done by humans and directed along a path the humans are that lightening bolt which is bringing about new things it is also selectively destroying the ones it doesnt like.

"I'm talking mutation/adaptation across millions of generations changing one thing into another bit by bit. "

you need a big enough structure to arise that will
a) be able to self replicate (or be parasitic but random parasitic programs will most likely just corrupt the program it attaches to unless its very very lucky that it doesnt make the program stop functioning)
b) pass information about itself from one generation to the next
c) mutate ie either with a built in function for random mutations which will require a more complex copying process otherwise you are relying on the corrupted data to be corrupted again.

if it cant do these things it wont survive in a useful way for evolution. your still looking at a largish file size. there have been systems similar to tierra but with programs evolving however it only works because
a) a specific dna set is selected
b) theres a probabilty for each function being passed on
c) they compete for resources to survive
d) ineffective mutations are culled to allow new generations to come in otherwise all the resources get used and nothing can evolve

the emergent systems find an optimal solution to the dna set and the survival conditions and stagnate there until the conditions change. my point being alot of bits have to be randomly corrupted in the right way to create a system that is able to propogate itself in a meaningful way to evolutionary purposes.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Jo


Jo

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Location: Sheffield, England

Total posts: 517
Posted:http://www.bitstorm.org/gameoflife/standalone/
br>
simple form of the original 'game of life' circa 1970 - less involved version of Ado-P's first link... think 'go' the board game.

Benjamen (sorry, no dashes for your name coz you spelt mine with an 'e' wink )

I think we're basically in agreement here on the possibilities...

I just think the probabilities are less 'far-fetched' than you make it seem. We'll find out in our lifetimes I guess though so one day there'll be an 'I told you so' email from one of us... wink smile

great ideas guys please keep them coming smile

Jo.


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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

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Posted:hehe well if your going to be like that its benjamin but shhhhhhh its a secret tongue

ill tell u what if by 2040 intelligence has emerged as you described it ill buy you a coke, if not then you buy me a coke smile


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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