Forums > Social Chat > 13 things that dont make sense
Login/Join to Participatelovable smart-ass
785 posts
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria
785 posts
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria
Posted:
13 things that dont make sense
comments?
questions?
rude gestures?
13 things that dont make sense
comments?
questions?
rude gestures?
"is optimism in austria just a lack of information?"
-Alfred Dorfer
Master of the Munchkins
246 posts
246 posts
Posted:
i reckon the cosmic rays could come from pulsars, i dont pretend to know much cos im only 16 but ive been told that they release the most energy out of everything in the universe. Or maybe the cosmic rays are like coming from parallel universes? trippy and sci-fi, i like it
i reckon the cosmic rays could come from pulsars, i dont pretend to know much cos im only 16 but ive been told that they release the most energy out of everything in the universe. Or maybe the cosmic rays are like coming from parallel universes? trippy and sci-fi, i like it
Are you that clever that you smile forever? 
What's from the Earth is of the greatest worth
member
58 posts
Location: Ardfern (Kind of near Oban). At Uni in Stirling
58 posts
Location: Ardfern (Kind of near Oban). At Uni in Stirling
Posted:
I find 'the placebo effect' one really interesting. And I have a theory... Its probably really big headed of me to even try and come up with a theory but here goes!...
When you inject a substance into a person's bloodstream or muscle it causes an immune response, even if the stuff you are injecting is completely harmless like the saline solution. The body has an immune response to the substance because it is a foreign substance and the body tries to destroy it. You also have an immune response to your skin having a hole made in it and the body tries to repair it as quickly as possible.
The body therefore starts to 'concentrate' on the area of injection and a certain amount of signals from other parts of your body to your brain are blocked e.g. from the area where the pain is being inflicted in the experiment mentioned.
This works in all sorts of situations e.g. A hayfever sufferer can cure themselves if they swallow a hook-worm egg. (Hook-worms live in your intestines but do not cause any harm to you) Your body has an immune response to the hook-worms and stops having an immune response to the pollen - hayfever is cured because your body is 'concentrating' on the hook worms.
I have regular injections and have noticed that headaches/sore knee/hayfever etc go away for about 24 hours after the injection.
Big hole in my theory = how do placebo pills work? My theory does not take this into account!
Any thoughts anyone? Am I just talking a load of rubbish?
Axx
I find 'the placebo effect' one really interesting. And I have a theory... Its probably really big headed of me to even try and come up with a theory but here goes!...
When you inject a substance into a person's bloodstream or muscle it causes an immune response, even if the stuff you are injecting is completely harmless like the saline solution. The body has an immune response to the substance because it is a foreign substance and the body tries to destroy it. You also have an immune response to your skin having a hole made in it and the body tries to repair it as quickly as possible.
The body therefore starts to 'concentrate' on the area of injection and a certain amount of signals from other parts of your body to your brain are blocked e.g. from the area where the pain is being inflicted in the experiment mentioned.
This works in all sorts of situations e.g. A hayfever sufferer can cure themselves if they swallow a hook-worm egg. (Hook-worms live in your intestines but do not cause any harm to you) Your body has an immune response to the hook-worms and stops having an immune response to the pollen - hayfever is cured because your body is 'concentrating' on the hook worms.
I have regular injections and have noticed that headaches/sore knee/hayfever etc go away for about 24 hours after the injection.
Big hole in my theory = how do placebo pills work? My theory does not take this into account!
Any thoughts anyone? Am I just talking a load of rubbish?
Axx
Usually me on fire (rather than flames being amber coloured)
DIAMOND Member
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
Thanks for posting that
Thanks for posting that
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
about half of those shouldn't be there, but I am not going to go nit pick all of them, and instead just say that the new scientist is about the equivelent of a tabloid newspaper when it comes to science reporting. as a scientist I find the magazine a bit untasteful.
about half of those shouldn't be there, but I am not going to go nit pick all of them, and instead just say that the new scientist is about the equivelent of a tabloid newspaper when it comes to science reporting. as a scientist I find the magazine a bit untasteful.
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
can you just give us the numbers of the ones that you would say have satisfactory explanations vanize so we can ignore them?
and on a purely defensive tip
i reckon new scientist is great - it isn't aimed at professional scientists and that's probably why you don't like it...
its name says it all for me - as a science student at pre-university level it made me go and look up a *lot* of stuff before i got to study them properly.
if any science magazine deserves the tabloid label, its 'focus'.
cole. x
oh yeah - cheers konsti
can you just give us the numbers of the ones that you would say have satisfactory explanations vanize so we can ignore them?
and on a purely defensive tip
i reckon new scientist is great - it isn't aimed at professional scientists and that's probably why you don't like it...its name says it all for me - as a science student at pre-university level it made me go and look up a *lot* of stuff before i got to study them properly.
if any science magazine deserves the tabloid label, its 'focus'.
cole. x
oh yeah - cheers konsti
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
lovable smart-ass
785 posts
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria
785 posts
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria
Posted:
vanize, to us scientifically challenged peoples this is interesting...
and as a political scientist and economist i cringe at about 90% i read in the newspapers, most of what i see on tv and mostly i cringe at the BS that people post on the internet.
i still try and laugh about it.......
vanize, to us scientifically challenged peoples this is interesting...
and as a political scientist and economist i cringe at about 90% i read in the newspapers, most of what i see on tv and mostly i cringe at the BS that people post on the internet.
i still try and laugh about it.......
"is optimism in austria just a lack of information?"
-Alfred Dorfer
SILVER Member
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Posted:
i really like new scientist but im a crap scientist so that might explain it.
i really like new scientist
but im a crap scientist so that might explain it. Hop's Kitten Jester.
1,803 posts
Location: Wonderland igloo, Vic, Australia
1,803 posts
Location: Wonderland igloo, Vic, Australia
Posted:
Placebo effect is easy to understand.
When you'vwe inflicted pain on someone for so long, then given the morphine afterwards for a period of time. They come to believe that the saline you're about to inject into them is morphine, therefore their body has a reaction to that and the pain goes away.
Its like what Hitler did in the Haulocast - he amde a man watch him boil a kettle. Quickly, as the man didnt see, he changed the kettle around to one with cold water in it.
He poured the cold water over the terrified man - and it burnt his skin.
The anticipation is what changes the effect.
Placebo effect is easy to understand.
When you'vwe inflicted pain on someone for so long, then given the morphine afterwards for a period of time. They come to believe that the saline you're about to inject into them is morphine, therefore their body has a reaction to that and the pain goes away.
Its like what Hitler did in the Haulocast - he amde a man watch him boil a kettle. Quickly, as the man didnt see, he changed the kettle around to one with cold water in it.
He poured the cold water over the terrified man - and it burnt his skin.
The anticipation is what changes the effect.
.:Pink Exocutioner:.
I am Jack's Raging Bile Duct...
Loving you from the deepest part of my loins.
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
it is far too late at night and i got far too little sleep last night to actually follow what the hell is going on on that site! Konsti, how dare you try and make me think!
it is far too late at night and i got far too little sleep last night to actually follow what the hell is going on on that site! Konsti, how dare you try and make me think!
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
member
92 posts
Location: just behind your left shoulder, Australia
member
92 posts
Location: just behind your left shoulder, Australia
Posted:
Sakura_moon,
The placebo effect (unfortunately) isn't as easy as that (alack and alas, if only it were - the neuroscientists among us would all breathe easier). The key point in that article is not so much that the placebo effect existed as that it is BLOCKED by naloxone, a drug which blocks the morphine receptors in the neurons. If it was just a belief thing, the placebo effect would exist unchecked with or without presence of naloxone. As it is, the fact that naloxone blocks the effect suggests that the placebo effect must be due to some action of these receptors (or the neurons they are attached to), not just due to an expectation signal from the higher functioning cerebrum or hippocampus (brain areas).
And Amber Flames - I love your theory, an excellent piece of logic! Just one tiny problem I'm afraid - the pain response doesn't have anything to do with the immune system. Sorry! Pain signals are carried to the brain by neurons stimulated at the point of injury and running up to the brain; the drugs work not by interacting with the immune system but by stimulating receptors on these neurons that prevent them sending signals, thus preventing the 'pain' message getting through. you're certainly right about the hay fever point, but that is because hay fever is caused by the immune system overreacting to a pathogen. Sorry to put a hole in your theory!
As for myself, I have a half-formed theory (which I think may have a hole in it) but I have now to run to a Biochemistry lecture, and will have to post it up when I'm done
adios,
Jazz
Sakura_moon,
The placebo effect (unfortunately) isn't as easy as that (alack and alas, if only it were - the neuroscientists among us would all breathe easier). The key point in that article is not so much that the placebo effect existed as that it is BLOCKED by naloxone, a drug which blocks the morphine receptors in the neurons. If it was just a belief thing, the placebo effect would exist unchecked with or without presence of naloxone. As it is, the fact that naloxone blocks the effect suggests that the placebo effect must be due to some action of these receptors (or the neurons they are attached to), not just due to an expectation signal from the higher functioning cerebrum or hippocampus (brain areas).
And Amber Flames - I love your theory, an excellent piece of logic! Just one tiny problem I'm afraid - the pain response doesn't have anything to do with the immune system. Sorry! Pain signals are carried to the brain by neurons stimulated at the point of injury and running up to the brain; the drugs work not by interacting with the immune system but by stimulating receptors on these neurons that prevent them sending signals, thus preventing the 'pain' message getting through. you're certainly right about the hay fever point, but that is because hay fever is caused by the immune system overreacting to a pathogen. Sorry to put a hole in your theory!
As for myself, I have a half-formed theory (which I think may have a hole in it) but I have now to run to a Biochemistry lecture, and will have to post it up when I'm done
adios,
Jazz
C8H18 + 12.5O2 ---------> 8CO2 + 9H2O + you know what
Internet Hate Machine
10,530 posts
Location: They seek him here, they seek him there...
10,530 posts
Location: They seek him here, they seek him there...
Posted:
Best line ever!
"You cant give sick people tick-tacks"
Best line ever!
"You cant give sick people tick-tacks"
The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."
member
58 posts
Location: Ardfern (Kind of near Oban). At Uni in Stirling
58 posts
Location: Ardfern (Kind of near Oban). At Uni in Stirling
Posted:
Thanks for putting me right there Jazz, I hadn't thought about that... I haven't done much neuroscience so great to read your thread, thanks.
Axx
Thanks for putting me right there Jazz, I hadn't thought about that... I haven't done much neuroscience so great to read your thread, thanks.
Axx
Usually me on fire (rather than flames being amber coloured)
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
RE: that study on the placebo effect.
sounds like a conditioned response to me - the body is conditioned to recieve mophine after the pain incident. there is fair evidence (though perhaps not widely accepted) that mophine can be produced naturally in the brain, and that this produciton can be increased by upping levels of chemical precursors in the body.
therefor it is possible that a body conditioned to receiving morphine under certain conditions may produce an elevated level of morphine precursors to prepare the brain for receiving the expected morphine flood more efficiently.
these same precursors would also cause an increase in the (postulated) natural morphine production in the brain.
Therefor the placebo effect in this case would not be a true placebo effect, but rather a physiologically conditioned response to stimuli that causes increased natural morphine production.
which would explain perfectly why the morphine inhibitor still works like morphine is there - because it is, just not from an outside source.
of course all that reasoning depends on the natural ability of the brain to produce mophine, which is apparently a very debateable subject and not widely accepted.
RE: that study on the placebo effect.
sounds like a conditioned response to me - the body is conditioned to recieve mophine after the pain incident. there is fair evidence (though perhaps not widely accepted) that mophine can be produced naturally in the brain, and that this produciton can be increased by upping levels of chemical precursors in the body.
therefor it is possible that a body conditioned to receiving morphine under certain conditions may produce an elevated level of morphine precursors to prepare the brain for receiving the expected morphine flood more efficiently.
these same precursors would also cause an increase in the (postulated) natural morphine production in the brain.
Therefor the placebo effect in this case would not be a true placebo effect, but rather a physiologically conditioned response to stimuli that causes increased natural morphine production.
which would explain perfectly why the morphine inhibitor still works like morphine is there - because it is, just not from an outside source.
of course all that reasoning depends on the natural ability of the brain to produce mophine, which is apparently a very debateable subject and not widely accepted.
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
member
58 posts
Location: Ardfern (Kind of near Oban). At Uni in Stirling
58 posts
Location: Ardfern (Kind of near Oban). At Uni in Stirling
Posted:
But surely even if the brain can produce morphine then the effect that would be produced by injecting morphine would be the opposite to what you say...
The morphine injections aren't precursors and normally if you inject a naturally occurring substance into the body then the body stops producing it itself because it thinks it doesn't need to e.g. people who take too many e's stop producing seratonin naturally because their body has so much in it from the e's. The producers become 'lazy' and it can take many years for them to start functionally properly again. Another example of this is withdrawal from anti-depressants, it works exactly the same way...
So wouldn't it make more sense if the body stopped producing morphine because it has been injected rather than it producing more?
Axx
But surely even if the brain can produce morphine then the effect that would be produced by injecting morphine would be the opposite to what you say...
The morphine injections aren't precursors and normally if you inject a naturally occurring substance into the body then the body stops producing it itself because it thinks it doesn't need to e.g. people who take too many e's stop producing seratonin naturally because their body has so much in it from the e's. The producers become 'lazy' and it can take many years for them to start functionally properly again. Another example of this is withdrawal from anti-depressants, it works exactly the same way...
So wouldn't it make more sense if the body stopped producing morphine because it has been injected rather than it producing more?
Axx
Usually me on fire (rather than flames being amber coloured)
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