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NucleopoiBRONZE Member
chemical attraction
1,097 posts
Location: Ilkeston, Derbyshire, England


Posted:
I am interested in everyones opinion as to whether they agree or

disagree with testing new drugs or products on animals before

they are released on to the market.If you do not agree how else

would you make sure they were safe and if you do agree please

tell me why...thanks

flidBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,136 posts
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: Stone

flid, Im making an over generalisation of my own here when I ask why do people think products made with all natural ingredients are safer, better for the environment and effective?




I didn't study advertising and marketting at uni, so I'm not sure, but I guess because it coungers up thoughts of the way things used to be, before all these nasty chemicals came along. They had it good back then didn't they? wink

I don't beleive at all that all natural substances are better for health or the environment over their synthetic counterparts, and have written posts about this in the past (vegetarism thread I think)

colemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: Parliament Of Peace



and does ibuprofen come from aspirin as well?






nah, ibuprofen isn't aspirin.



ibuprofen was developed by 'boots' chemists in the 1960's and has since been approved as an over-the-counter pain killer all over the place.



in the uk, all otc painkillers are either aspirin, paracetamol, codeine or ibuprofen though some products are a mix these active ingredients.





cole. x

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


flidBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,136 posts
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
something i didn't realise until the other day is that neurofen an various other brands are owned by boots

colemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
yep - nurofen is the otc version of ibuprofen produced by boots.

its the original brand name for ibuprofen and for that reason only is why it sells so well.

boots also sell generic ibuprofen but i still see people buying the horrendously marked up branded stuff just because the adverts work too damn well.


cole. x

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
Written by: flid


Well, some companies do do taste testing, for instance dog food (my story comes from seeing it on tv smile), but of course this isn't the normal way that ingrediants are tested for things such as toxicity.




hehehe... would make some sense, having dogs taste dog-food wink not sure if that could be tested on humans, we might just go for a bit of a different taste!

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
Hi Sir_Sheep! And sorry for so many posts in a row, but I try and work my way through this...

I'm looking for alternatives to animal testing in the sector of inhalation toxicology. We're trying to find markers in cell cultures that can predict if an agent will cause fibrosis in the lung. Lung fibrosis is currently examined by inhalation studies with rats, or, more recently, something called "intra-tracheal instillation", where animals don't have to inhale things anymore but get anesthesized and injected the substance into the trachea instead (which still uses animals but at least they are less stressed).

It's an industry-sponsored project. If you already know now that you want to work on alternatives to animal testing you might want to contact ECVAM, it's the European Centre for the Validation of Alternative Methods (I think... something like that) and ask for an internship, they look at methods people suggest to replace animal testing and try to validate them.

Hope this helped, get back to me if you have more questions biggrin

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


Sir_Sheepold hand
725 posts
Location: Chester, UK


Posted:
Thanks for that Brigit.

I'm aware of several organisations which are actively involved with alternatives research, for examle The Doctor Hadwen Trust and The Lord Dowding Fund . As far my my research has taught me, they don't really fund undergraduate study (shame frown ), but as you say, there's always post-grad.

Spoiling Christmas for small children since 2003.


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,830 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Thanks flid. I was thinking that advertisers are certainly pushing the its natural it must be safe approach". And perhaps this lulls some of us into a false sense of security. As you say, there are many nasty chemicals out there and some of the natural ones are just as dangerous as the synthetic ones, like nicotine (tobacco) for example.

smile

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
hihihi...
actually, the most toxic substance in the world is natural: botox! I think the first one that's generally man-made (though it is also produced in not-man-made fires) is a dioxin, which is still comparatively much much "safer" than botox.
So in the case of botox, adding preservatives to food conserves has brought down the number of fatal food poisoning quite a lot.
[/smartass] biggrin

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,923 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Written by: onewheeldave


A question to lightning and any others with knowledge of testing procedures: -

as I understand it, Thalidamide was found to be generally safe except when taken by pregnant women (where it caused major birth defects in the child).

Currently drugs are tested by various means which include animal tests, and end with tests on human volunteers.

Presumably drugs are not tested on pregnant women?

So what procedures are used to ensure that such drugs are not harmful during pregnancy?




First, the thalidomide thing was probably overblown. MANY pregnant women took thalidomide and there were no problems. There were a FEW kids who came out with missing/malformed limbs and whether this had anything to do with thalidomide is up in the air.

As it happens, thalidomide is a very useful drug. It's useful in arthritic conditions, cancer, etc. We use far more teratogenic (fetal malformation-causing drugs) like...oh...say...ACCUTANE and an entire class of antihypertensive drugs called angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitors (ACE-I's)...oh...and ibuprofen.

Generally a patient on these is pregnancy tested and put on birth control. Why we can't do this with thalidomide is beyond me.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


Dr_MollyPooh-Bah
2,354 posts
Location: Away from home


Posted:
Veering somewhat off topic, but thalidomide resarch is alive and well. Sorry about the format but this is just cut and pasted from pubmed cos I'm lazy smile


J Support Oncol. 2003 Sep-Oct;1(3):194-205.

Management of thalidomide toxicity.

Ghobrial IM, Rajkumar SV.

Division of Hematology, Department of Internal Medicine, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minnesota 55905, USA.

Thalidomide has re-emerged as a novel antineoplastic agent with immunomodulatory and antiangiogenic activities. In the early sixties, it was withdrawn from the market after its infamous association with congenital abnormalities that left about 10,000 children affected world-wide. With strict regulations and precautions, thalidomide is now approved by the FDA for the treatment of erythema nodosum leprosum. Its role in cancer therapy is promising, with clinical trials in the past 5 years showing significant activity in multiple myeloma. Several trials are ongoing in other malignancies, such as myelodysplastic syndrome, agnogenic myeloid metaplasia, renal cell carcinoma, and prostate cancer. The major toxicities of thalidomide are birth defects, sensorimotor peripheral neuropathy, somnolence, rash, fatigue, and constipation. Less common side effects include deep venous thrombosis, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, elevated liver enzymes, malaise, and peripheral edema. The incidence and severity of adverse events are related to dose and duration of therapy. Doses of the drug of 200 mg/day or less are usually well tolerated. In this review, we will discuss the incidence and management of the side effects of thalidomide and the precautions and interventions needed to minimize the toxicities of this drug.

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,923 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Oh yeah, it's back...but it's under tighter control than opiates. You'd think that you could develop thalidomide toxicity by touching a patient who's on it!

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
***bump***

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


CrazyHippyChickSILVER Member
errrrrr what?
198 posts
Location: cloud 9, United Kingdom


Posted:
we humans consider ourselves to be the most intelligent beins on earth yet in this day and age we still do horrific tests on animals? get a life.

I'll come back as fire and burn all the liars and leave a blanket of ashes on the ground.
I could write the new bridget jones diary only mine would be more bizarre, funnier, dirtier more unbelievabe and bloody true!


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
your definition of intelligence seems to be an interesting one.

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
I do tests on animals myself, albeit only invertabrates. There simply isn't any other way to gain a holistic (shudder) understanding of the mechanisms in action.



Whilst I am oppose to frivilous animal testing like that in the cosmetics industry, it remains a neccasery evil in drugs testing.



EDIT: Birgit, don't feed the troll...
Non-Https Image Link

EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1142859589)

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


CrazyHippyChickSILVER Member
errrrrr what?
198 posts
Location: cloud 9, United Kingdom


Posted:
oh yeah silly me i forgot how simular i am to a rat

I'll come back as fire and burn all the liars and leave a blanket of ashes on the ground.
I could write the new bridget jones diary only mine would be more bizarre, funnier, dirtier more unbelievabe and bloody true!


jo_rhymesSILVER Member
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom


Posted:
Obviously I think testing on animals is horrible.
When it comes to testing for the sake of beauty, testing products like shampoo, hair dye, make up,,,it's just unnecessary and cruel.
However, when people's lives are at stake, and we need medicine, then it's hard to stand by my morals and here animal testing has saved so many human (and animal's) lives.

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.


DominoSILVER Member
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
757 posts
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK


Posted:
Know what you're life's worth in terms of animal testing?

Two and a half mice, and about half a rat.

 Written by: https://www.medicalprogress.org/reference/index.cfm#caption


The approximations noted in the home page caption were derived using the 2004 UK animal research statistics. They assume the average British citizen has a life span of 78.5 years and the population is 60 million.

No. of mice = 1.91 million x 78.5 (years) 60 million = 2.5

No. of rats = 0.46 million x 78.5 (years) 60 million = 0.6



Now how many animals have been killed for your food?

Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
or your shoes... or by the pollution you've caused...

thanks Domino smile

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


CrazyHippyChickSILVER Member
errrrrr what?
198 posts
Location: cloud 9, United Kingdom


Posted:
theres a very valid argument against why tests on animals for medical purposes are completly absurd but im too mad to go into it at the moment im going to come back and post when i can think and talk sensibly about the subject

I'll come back as fire and burn all the liars and leave a blanket of ashes on the ground.
I could write the new bridget jones diary only mine would be more bizarre, funnier, dirtier more unbelievabe and bloody true!


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
maybe you'll find it in the first 4 pages of the thread... basically valid arguments won't convince either side, but whatever you're planning to say my guess is it's been said in this thread.

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


IgirisujinSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,666 posts
Location: Preston, United Kingdom


Posted:
Probably birgit (got your name right tongue, probably the first and last time that will happen)

Ide like to tally up all the animal rights campaigners who are agaisnt testing for medical research and take note of how many of them use or have used the drugs that came about to cure illnesses and desieses that have come as a direct result of animal testing.

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?


SymBRONZE Member
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom


Posted:
Wouldn't it be hard to get stats on what drugs have some about because of testing? I would have thought a lot of people use data from testing, or build on what other have done. Does anyone know what per cent of drugs on the market are tested on animals?

There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees


PrometheusDiamond In The Rough
459 posts
Location: Richmond, Virginia


Posted:
If a drug is meant to be given to humans, it should be tested on humans. This is where HMO executives come in very handy...

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
Sym, 100%

All the ones that don't get tested on animals have only ingredients that have previously been tested, so even if you buy "animal-free" that's only because someone's already done it.

It's different as far as I know from what you buy as alternative stuff, but then I'm not too sure about their regulations. The ones with the least regulations and tests will also be the ones with the least quality controls I'd assume...

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


MotleyGOLD Member
addict
434 posts
Location: UK


Posted:
 Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: onewheeldave


A question to lightning and any others with knowledge of testing procedures: -

as I understand it, Thalidamide was found to be generally safe except when taken by pregnant women (where it caused major birth defects in the child).

Currently drugs are tested by various means which include animal tests, and end with tests on human volunteers.

Presumably drugs are not tested on pregnant women?

So what procedures are used to ensure that such drugs are not harmful during pregnancy?



First, the thalidomide thing was probably overblown. MANY pregnant women took thalidomide and there were no problems. There were a FEW kids who came out with missing/malformed limbs and whether this had anything to do with thalidomide is up in the air.

As it happens, thalidomide is a very useful drug. It's useful in arthritic conditions, cancer, etc. We use far more teratogenic (fetal malformation-causing drugs) like...oh...say...ACCUTANE and an entire class of antihypertensive drugs called angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitors (ACE-I's)...oh...and ibuprofen.

Generally a patient on these is pregnancy tested and put on birth control. Why we can't do this with thalidomide is beyond me.



Doc: The fact that thalidomide was to blame for the malformations seen in these unfortunate babies is a well known and documented fact. The reason that only a few babies were affected is largely to do with when the mothers took the drug. Its actually a very specific phase of development which is affected and hence if mothers took thalodomide but not during this phase the babies were unaffected. Thalodomide is making a come back though and its great to see that we can reasonably use a drug for indications in which it is useful despite the problems surrounding its original release onto the market.

OWD drugs that are likely to/are intended to be prescribed for pregnant women undergo fertility/repro studies. This includes multigeneration studies in rodent species (usually rats) spanning 2 generations (first generation and their offspring and second generation and their offspring). The reason this testing is limited to only certain drugs is because of the amount of animals and the cost involved in performing such studies and the fact that this type of testing is unsuitable for some drugs (e.g. why test geriatric drugs for repro tox). Hope this helps answer your questions. Oh and no, drugs are never tested on pregnant women, for obvious reasons. potential for teratogenicity and fertility problems are exactly the reason that "first in man" studies are undertaken in men.

Motley

SymBRONZE Member
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by: Birgit


It's different as far as I know from what you buy as alternative stuff, but then I'm not too sure about their regulations. The ones with the least regulations and tests will also be the ones with the least quality controls I'd assume...



I have found that the people who don't accept (very different from like, note) animal tests are the people who denounce 'science based' drugs and only use 'alternative medicine'. I'm not sure how to react to these people, but seeing as they do no harm to me I don't mind if they use things that we know to do nothing at all. wink

There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,923 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Sym ,every time someone raids an animal facility (and yes, it happens) it harms us by destroying valuable experiments.

Every time they try to ban it, it risks us.

So I will fight against those who oppose science.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


buzzingtalkMember
152 posts
Location: London, england


Posted:
i think animal testing is sick. im completely against it. why should humans come before animals? why do we have the right to mass produce animals to test on, denying them of a normal life. human rights protesters, myself as one, will carry on protesting until people are free, and no one ever moans about that. I as an animal protester will always be against it, unless every animal taking part in testing was given the most free life after testing that didnt harm them, but this will never happen as some humans are sick and think there is some kind of heirachy to who deserves to live more than the other. i think, yea OK sometimes animal testing is necessary and productive, only if done humanely, minimally, and benefits animals and humans but this will never be standardised.

is a reason some people are so touchy on this becuase we have subjective feeling for fellow humans, we can communicate with each other and we make links ot each other. take the scenario that someone you know dies of a bad disease (touch wood), well that person is someones sister, someones mum, someones best freind, but also think of the animals heartlessly killed in useless drug testing (not all is useless but some is) in inhumane conditions, that animal is also part of a family, that animal has love and is loved too.

i am an animal rights protester, have been for a long time, but animal rights testers that harm people are twats. it goes against the philosophy that we are all equal if that amkes sense.

i know i will get ripped to sh!t cos of this post, but i am standing up for what i believe, and my beleifs do not im pose upon yours so i trust that you will all appreiciate my view?

peace,

Kiss me now, You're beatiful, For these days are truly the last.


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