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Forums > Social Discussion > Why do people think they always know best?

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Zauberdach


Zauberdach

Sometimes sword wofter
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 199
Posted:I was sent this by one of my friends:



"Do read this and do this. What these 2 idiot boys did was wrong and DISGUSTING. Do you remember February 1993 when a young 3 yr old was taken from shopping mall in Liverpool by two 10-year-old boys? Jamie Bulger walked away from his mother for only a second and Jon Venables took his hand and led him out of the mall with his friend Robert Thompson. They took Jamie on a walk for over 2 and a half miles, along the way stopping every now and again to torture the poor little boy who was crying constantly for his mummy. Finally they stopped at a railway track where they brutally kicked him, threw stones at him, rubbed paint in his eyes and pushed batteries up his anus. It was actually worse than this... What these two boys did was so horrendous that Jamie's mother was forbidden to identify his body. They then left his beaten small body on the tracks so a train could run him over to hide the mess they had created. These two boys, even being young, understood what they did was wrong, hence trying to make it look like an accident. This week Lady Justice Butler-Sloss has awarded the two boys anonymity for the rest of their lives when they leave custody with new identities. We cannot let this happen. They will also leave early this year only serving just over half of their sentence. One paper even stated that Robert may go on to University. They are getting away with their crime. They disgustingly and violently took Jamie's life away in return they get a new life. Please read it carefully...then add your name at the end... and send it to everyone you can! Please add your name and location to the list and send it to friends and family. Please copy this e-mail (highlight text, right click, copy and paste into a new email) instead of forwarding so we do not get arrows at the beginning of the sentences. If you are the 220th person to sign, please forward this e-mail to (email address removed)and attention it to Lady Justice Butler-Sloss. Then start the list over again and send to your friends and family. The Love-Bug virus took less that 72 hours to reach the world. I hope this one does as well. We need to protect our family and friends from creatures like Robert and Jon. One day they may be living next to you and your small children, without your knowledge. If Robert and Jon could be so evil at 10 years old, imagine what they could do as adults!"



Man I can't begin to pick out all the things that are wrong with this.



Firstly this was written by an Australian forwarded through about 150 New Zealanders and Canadians who added their names and locations before it got to the UK. Why?



Seconly these boys were 10 when they commited this crime. If we cannot accept that people can reform then we might as well simply hang every criminal that gets caught.



Thirdly these boys were like 10 when they commited this crime! Yes it is a terrible crime, but why would a child so young be so twisted? Can we really accept the idea that some children and just black and white all out evil? These are probably kids from really messed up homes who've grown up watching some really messed up movies. I sure I don't know but I imagine these boys have been gone over by some of the top experts to find out. I don't imagine they are being released if they posed any danger at all.



Fourthly the idea of state involves the seperation of powers between the elements like the political (i.e. us the people) and the judicial. This is good and for a reason. This means expert judges can call on expert child psychologists who can give their expert opinion. Unlike my opinion or the opinion of all the numpties whose only information is this script above.



I don't agree with "moral" crusades and think there are plenty of real life unemotive ones out there.


IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.

"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: ben-ja-men


Written by: coleman
i see your logic but what exactly do you base this psycology on?

you seem to have opinions that do not consider that there is a even possibility that a murderer can become reformed - that somehow commiting the act overides any other influences post or previous.



i think that everything is possible, technically you could uncake a cake but whether you would want to put all the effect in to making it happen is a whole other question. if there where 100 ppl left on the face of the planet i would say yes its a good idea to invest the time and resources to help that person however when around 60 million people are dieing from starvation every year im inclined to say no thats not such a good use of resources.





so you're not actually saying that a murderer can't be reforemed at all?



you're just saying you think it is one of the hardest things to help someone to overcome and as such is an unjustifyable drain on society?



i agree with that. smile





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Konsti


Konsti

lovable smart-ass
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria

Total posts: 785
Posted:guys let me guess,
both of you are sitting in an office, bored out yer skull typing posts of biblical proportions
wink


"is optimism in austria just a lack of information?"
-Alfred Dorfer

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:no. umm

okay, yeah i am ubbangel wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Zauberdach


Zauberdach

Sometimes sword wofter
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 199
Posted:Written by: Konsti

i grew up watching james bond, nightmare on elm street, chucky, critters, house 1,2,3, texas chainsaw massacre. I played mortal combat, doom, blood 1,2, and plenty of other mindlessly violent games.




Yeah same here, but I grew up in a fairly stable and healthy environment. Imagine if you grew up in an environment where you could idolise role models like Freddy? Characters like him must seem pritty attractive to abused children, they are in control, they seem to rise above pain never on the receiving end and even when they appear to be defeated they return ever more powerful.

I don't think movies should be censored. I think parents should have to apply for a licence.


IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.

"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide

Total posts: 2474
Posted:i think parents should first have to care for a plant, then a animal for an extended period of time to demonstrate that they are able to care for another being and want to have a child

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Zauberdach


Zauberdach

Sometimes sword wofter
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 199
Posted:
Written by: bonzai
We must assume that everyone has an equal capacity for good and evil acts

No two people have the same values because no two people is brought up in the same environment or learned to adapt the same way.
Written by: ben-ja-men

i dont understand these two statements seem to contradict each other. if people have different values then they will have a different capacity for good and evil.







Ok, let me explain:

a. Everyone has the ability/potential to be ether "good" or "evil" or both. Meaning, everyone physically has all the necessary tools to perform "good" acts or "evil" acts. How we do act is shaped by our environment. No one is innately evil or good. This process is continual throughout our lives, so "good" one day not necessarily equal "good" for the rest of our lives.

b. Because how we act is shaped by our environment and the fact that everyone has a slightly different environment it seems logical that everyones values should be slightly different. If people have been shaped in different ways by different environments then we can expect them to hold different values.

Written by: bonzai
change the stimuli and you change the behaviour.
Written by: ben-ja-men

how are you going to change the stimuli? surely they are a product of their environment are u going to restructure society? if not i think that the stimuli will still be present in society.







If we are agreeing to blame the environment and not the children that is all I wish to cover in the scope of this debate smile I would quite happily restructure society, as I believe would you biggrin

Written by: bonzai
If you take a boy at 10 or 11 and spend the next ten years continually making them relive their actions, continually telling them how evil it was, continually telling them how much they are hted for their crimes
Written by: ben-ja-men

what do u think society says about those types of crimes in news every day? or movies? do u think they are not going to relive those tramatic events every day for the rest of their lives?







No I don't think these boys have seen this everyday of their lives upto the point they commited their crime. They saw neglect, abusive parents, and glorified violence on movies.


IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.

"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: ben-ja-men

i think parents should first have to care for a plant, then a animal for an extended period of time to demonstrate that they are able to care for another being and want to have a child



hahaha! you stole that from that movie where Sandra Bullock played the alcoholic, didn't you? I don't think it's that easy in real life though, this one was about having new relationships. Animals do a lot by instincts, so all you have to do is feed and water them and let them run outside if it's a dog, but kids don't work that way.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Zauberdach


Zauberdach

Sometimes sword wofter
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 199
Posted:i don't think anyone is suggesting it is going to be identical to bring up a child... ubbrollsmile

IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.

"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:nope, it's actually nothing to do with it... in most cases it's just one more thing the wife will do while the husband's at work, so he wouldn't have to "pass" any tests. Then, it would mean that most unplanned pregnancies would have to be aborted (!). And last but not least, if it was all about people being able to care for plants, my mum would've NEVER been allowed to have ME! eek ubbloco eek

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Zauberdach


Zauberdach

Sometimes sword wofter
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 199
Posted:I think the idea is to demonstrate a capacity for responsibility?

I think puppys are better then at least when the child is growing up they have a dog to play with and love if they aren't getting that from their parents.


IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.

"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: bonzai

I think the idea is to demonstrate a capacity for responsibility?




I understand that, but I don't believe there'll ever be a way to work that out. Just one example, my friend's girlfriend got pregnant because they didn't care enough about contraception. Now, at that point, they WERE careless teenagers, and no method would've proved them to be responsible enough to raise a child, but the pregnancy just changed their lives completely and they are wonderful parents now.
What would you do with people who can't look after pets, sterilise them, or make them try to look after that puppy again and again if they really want a baby?

I do think the way people get checked when they want to adopt a child is a good start, but you can't do that for every couple that wants a child! And people who have kids and don't look after them properly CAN be reported and the kids can be helped, it's just that in so many cases noone notices until it's too late. Though of course, sometimes it's not obvious to the environment, in many cases neighbours, friends or teachers notice something and are afraid to step in, or people are happy enough to complain about how badly behaved someone's kids are without wondering why.

I wish I had a good solution to the problem, but I really can't think of any way that would work to get people qualified for being parents! How many "normal" and responsible couples turn out to be completely overstrained with a child and end up hitting it, even if they'd never known about their violent side before? And how many otherwise rational people try like hell to not notice the nice uncle that's molesting their children because they can't cope with the situation, whereas maybe less responsible parents would just go out and give the guy a proper beating up?


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by: ben-ja-men

i think parents should first have to care for a plant, then a animal for an extended period of time to demonstrate that they are able to care for another being and want to have a child



Responsibility for a plant or an animal is far different to the instinct a parent feels towards their own child. Although I don't wish to hold an animal in captivity, I could care for a plant, but in comparison to the reaction from my own son, I'd imagine my maternal instinct would be largely lost on a shrub.

A child's needs are also far more complex and it's this instinct which can ensure that a parent behaves responsibly to their child even through the most difficult of times. The instinct can take some time to develop and sadly for some, it never does. But without the birth of a child, it hasn't a chance of kicking in at all, which is one reason why such a test would be irrelevant.

I also disagree that we are all born with a clean state (did you mean "slate"?). There is mounting evidence that occurences such as alcoholic and suicidal tendencies can be hereditary. There's also some evidence to suggest violence could be similarly linked. All of these problems affected Jon Venables and Robert Thompson respectively.

It could be argued that, as both my parents are former alcoholics and have both attempted suicide, that I should be long gone, as I've had ample opportunity to go down both those paths, yet have survived thus far. For all you or I know though, I could have passed the parenting "test", been licenced to give birth, then become a alcoholic and commit suicide this time next year.

Or not smile

But there's also the chance that someone not genetically predisposed to either of these problems could do exactly the same. And this is yet another reason why a parenting test would be pointless. Adoption can be controlled - rightly so, I believe - but I see no case for which the biological (even if not always unassisted) events of conception, pregnancy and birth should be.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Konsti


Konsti

lovable smart-ass
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria

Total posts: 785
Posted:Written by: bonzai

Written by: Konsti

i grew up watching james bond, nightmare on elm street, chucky, critters, house 1,2,3, texas chainsaw massacre. I played mortal combat, doom, blood 1,2, and plenty of other mindlessly violent games.




Yeah same here, but I grew up in a fairly stable and healthy environment. Imagine if you grew up in an environment where you could idolise role models like Freddy? Characters like him must seem pritty attractive to abused children, they are in control, they seem to rise above pain never on the receiving end and even when they appear to be defeated they return ever more powerful.

I don't think movies should be censored. I think parents should have to apply for a licence.



I agree totally.
cool


"is optimism in austria just a lack of information?"
-Alfred Dorfer

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