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ZauberdachSometimes sword wofter
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
I was sent this by one of my friends:



"Do read this and do this. What these 2 idiot boys did was wrong and DISGUSTING. Do you remember February 1993 when a young 3 yr old was taken from shopping mall in Liverpool by two 10-year-old boys? Jamie Bulger walked away from his mother for only a second and Jon Venables took his hand and led him out of the mall with his friend Robert Thompson. They took Jamie on a walk for over 2 and a half miles, along the way stopping every now and again to torture the poor little boy who was crying constantly for his mummy. Finally they stopped at a railway track where they brutally kicked him, threw stones at him, rubbed paint in his eyes and pushed batteries up his anus. It was actually worse than this... What these two boys did was so horrendous that Jamie's mother was forbidden to identify his body. They then left his beaten small body on the tracks so a train could run him over to hide the mess they had created. These two boys, even being young, understood what they did was wrong, hence trying to make it look like an accident. This week Lady Justice Butler-Sloss has awarded the two boys anonymity for the rest of their lives when they leave custody with new identities. We cannot let this happen. They will also leave early this year only serving just over half of their sentence. One paper even stated that Robert may go on to University. They are getting away with their crime. They disgustingly and violently took Jamie's life away in return they get a new life. Please read it carefully...then add your name at the end... and send it to everyone you can! Please add your name and location to the list and send it to friends and family. Please copy this e-mail (highlight text, right click, copy and paste into a new email) instead of forwarding so we do not get arrows at the beginning of the sentences. If you are the 220th person to sign, please forward this e-mail to (email address removed)and attention it to Lady Justice Butler-Sloss. Then start the list over again and send to your friends and family. The Love-Bug virus took less that 72 hours to reach the world. I hope this one does as well. We need to protect our family and friends from creatures like Robert and Jon. One day they may be living next to you and your small children, without your knowledge. If Robert and Jon could be so evil at 10 years old, imagine what they could do as adults!"



Man I can't begin to pick out all the things that are wrong with this.



Firstly this was written by an Australian forwarded through about 150 New Zealanders and Canadians who added their names and locations before it got to the UK. Why?



Seconly these boys were 10 when they commited this crime. If we cannot accept that people can reform then we might as well simply hang every criminal that gets caught.



Thirdly these boys were like 10 when they commited this crime! Yes it is a terrible crime, but why would a child so young be so twisted? Can we really accept the idea that some children and just black and white all out evil? These are probably kids from really messed up homes who've grown up watching some really messed up movies. I sure I don't know but I imagine these boys have been gone over by some of the top experts to find out. I don't imagine they are being released if they posed any danger at all.



Fourthly the idea of state involves the seperation of powers between the elements like the political (i.e. us the people) and the judicial. This is good and for a reason. This means expert judges can call on expert child psychologists who can give their expert opinion. Unlike my opinion or the opinion of all the numpties whose only information is this script above.



I don't agree with "moral" crusades and think there are plenty of real life unemotive ones out there.

IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.

"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"


Konstilovable smart-ass
785 posts
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria


Posted:
guys let me guess,
both of you are sitting in an office, bored out yer skull typing posts of biblical proportions
wink

"is optimism in austria just a lack of information?"
-Alfred Dorfer


colemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
no. umm

okay, yeah i am ubbangel wink


cole. x

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


ZauberdachSometimes sword wofter
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
Written by: Konsti


i grew up watching james bond, nightmare on elm street, chucky, critters, house 1,2,3, texas chainsaw massacre. I played mortal combat, doom, blood 1,2, and plenty of other mindlessly violent games.





Yeah same here, but I grew up in a fairly stable and healthy environment. Imagine if you grew up in an environment where you could idolise role models like Freddy? Characters like him must seem pritty attractive to abused children, they are in control, they seem to rise above pain never on the receiving end and even when they appear to be defeated they return ever more powerful.

I don't think movies should be censored. I think parents should have to apply for a licence.

IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.

"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"


ben-ja-menGOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia


Posted:
i think parents should first have to care for a plant, then a animal for an extended period of time to demonstrate that they are able to care for another being and want to have a child

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


ZauberdachSometimes sword wofter
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:

Written by: bonzai

We must assume that everyone has an equal capacity for good and evil acts

No two people have the same values because no two people is brought up in the same environment or learned to adapt the same way.
Written by: ben-ja-men


i dont understand these two statements seem to contradict each other. if people have different values then they will have a different capacity for good and evil.









Ok, let me explain:

a. Everyone has the ability/potential to be ether "good" or "evil" or both. Meaning, everyone physically has all the necessary tools to perform "good" acts or "evil" acts. How we do act is shaped by our environment. No one is innately evil or good. This process is continual throughout our lives, so "good" one day not necessarily equal "good" for the rest of our lives.

b. Because how we act is shaped by our environment and the fact that everyone has a slightly different environment it seems logical that everyones values should be slightly different. If people have been shaped in different ways by different environments then we can expect them to hold different values.

Written by: bonzai

change the stimuli and you change the behaviour.
Written by: ben-ja-men


how are you going to change the stimuli? surely they are a product of their environment are u going to restructure society? if not i think that the stimuli will still be present in society.









If we are agreeing to blame the environment and not the children that is all I wish to cover in the scope of this debate smile I would quite happily restructure society, as I believe would you biggrin

Written by: bonzai

If you take a boy at 10 or 11 and spend the next ten years continually making them relive their actions, continually telling them how evil it was, continually telling them how much they are hted for their crimes
Written by: ben-ja-men


what do u think society says about those types of crimes in news every day? or movies? do u think they are not going to relive those tramatic events every day for the rest of their lives?









No I don't think these boys have seen this everyday of their lives upto the point they commited their crime. They saw neglect, abusive parents, and glorified violence on movies.

IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.

"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
Written by: ben-ja-men


i think parents should first have to care for a plant, then a animal for an extended period of time to demonstrate that they are able to care for another being and want to have a child




hahaha! you stole that from that movie where Sandra Bullock played the alcoholic, didn't you? I don't think it's that easy in real life though, this one was about having new relationships. Animals do a lot by instincts, so all you have to do is feed and water them and let them run outside if it's a dog, but kids don't work that way.

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


ZauberdachSometimes sword wofter
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
i don't think anyone is suggesting it is going to be identical to bring up a child... ubbrollsmile

IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.

"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
nope, it's actually nothing to do with it... in most cases it's just one more thing the wife will do while the husband's at work, so he wouldn't have to "pass" any tests. Then, it would mean that most unplanned pregnancies would have to be aborted (!). And last but not least, if it was all about people being able to care for plants, my mum would've NEVER been allowed to have ME! eek ubbloco eek

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


ZauberdachSometimes sword wofter
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
I think the idea is to demonstrate a capacity for responsibility?

I think puppys are better then at least when the child is growing up they have a dog to play with and love if they aren't getting that from their parents.

IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.

"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
Written by: bonzai


I think the idea is to demonstrate a capacity for responsibility?





I understand that, but I don't believe there'll ever be a way to work that out. Just one example, my friend's girlfriend got pregnant because they didn't care enough about contraception. Now, at that point, they WERE careless teenagers, and no method would've proved them to be responsible enough to raise a child, but the pregnancy just changed their lives completely and they are wonderful parents now.
What would you do with people who can't look after pets, sterilise them, or make them try to look after that puppy again and again if they really want a baby?

I do think the way people get checked when they want to adopt a child is a good start, but you can't do that for every couple that wants a child! And people who have kids and don't look after them properly CAN be reported and the kids can be helped, it's just that in so many cases noone notices until it's too late. Though of course, sometimes it's not obvious to the environment, in many cases neighbours, friends or teachers notice something and are afraid to step in, or people are happy enough to complain about how badly behaved someone's kids are without wondering why.

I wish I had a good solution to the problem, but I really can't think of any way that would work to get people qualified for being parents! How many "normal" and responsible couples turn out to be completely overstrained with a child and end up hitting it, even if they'd never known about their violent side before? And how many otherwise rational people try like hell to not notice the nice uncle that's molesting their children because they can't cope with the situation, whereas maybe less responsible parents would just go out and give the guy a proper beating up?

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


Konstilovable smart-ass
785 posts
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria


Posted:
Written by: bonzai


Written by: Konsti


i grew up watching james bond, nightmare on elm street, chucky, critters, house 1,2,3, texas chainsaw massacre. I played mortal combat, doom, blood 1,2, and plenty of other mindlessly violent games.





Yeah same here, but I grew up in a fairly stable and healthy environment. Imagine if you grew up in an environment where you could idolise role models like Freddy? Characters like him must seem pritty attractive to abused children, they are in control, they seem to rise above pain never on the receiving end and even when they appear to be defeated they return ever more powerful.

I don't think movies should be censored. I think parents should have to apply for a licence.




I agree totally.
cool

"is optimism in austria just a lack of information?"
-Alfred Dorfer


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