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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:ive recently been learning about a system called voice dialogue that was created as a result of the decades of practical clinical practise of drs hal and sidra stone. Voice dialogue looks at how to access the structures of the human psyche known as subpersonalities. not all of these subpersonalities are positive and results from the way society is structured.

while bringing about change in oneself is great it doesnt help stop society from perpetuating alot of negative cycles.

at the moment im of the opinion that the best way to break the self perpetuating cycle of poverty is to remove the welfare system and replace it by providing everyone with all the basic necessitys of life, meaning that everyone would have food, shelter, clothing, access to education and the materials required for it.

however in breaking out of the current state that western society is in and replacing it with another system there will be alot of opposition from people who are no longer able to buy alcohol, cigarettes, drugs and whatever else. as such i dont think that western society would be the place to make such changes.

instead i think that going to a third world country and giving it the facilities and structure to become a first world country and starting from scratch. Changing the education system such that it is about learning all the different aspects that comprise education and looking at learning in creative ways. incorperating understanding how and why people behave the way that they do into the schooling system along with expressing emotions in a positive way rather than bottleing them up. with a shift away from achieving good grades and towards cultivating a love of knowledge and exploration

by providing everyone with all of the basic necessities in life and access to education to be able to better themselves there would be no excuse for crimes. the whole i had to steal to get money to feed my 5 starving children would not apply. as such a zero tollerance policy towards crimes would apply.

as far as things like children becoming rebellious goes the work of drs hal and sidra stone suggest that it occurs by the group of people who children seek approval from expands to their new group of friends who are very anti parent because its "cool" however by educating children as to the whys and hows of what makes people do what they do im currently of the opinion that the age gap and attitude of "cool" wont occur.

as for how everything would be supplied to everyone robots would do all of the mudane tasks such as farming, building housing, maintaining gardens, cleaning your house etc. while this would remove alot of the current jobs in society today it would however in the same way that industrial revolution removed alot of jobs create different ones. a focus on things such as performing arts, teaching (be it maths or kite flying) would allow people to pursue what interested them and be rewarded for that. As it wouldnt be necessary to work to make ends meet work would be a pashion rather than a chore. when you get sick of your job you get to simply go learn what you want to do next or just have a break until you find something that interests you more.

thoughts?


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


Jo
Jo

member
Location: Sheffield, England
Member Since: 13th Dec 2000
Total posts: 517
Posted:Very interesting idea mate.



I'm sure I'll be back with more thoughts, but my gut instinct is that it is slightly flawed in its simplicity.



ie. sounds too much like communism...



there will still be a desire to be 'better' than one another and other such negative issues....



people won't want to work in butchery factories...



people will still censored on each other...



and possible would have more oppertunities to do so...



Just my instincts based on past similar ideas that broke in the end...



let me think. ubbidea



Jo. smile



PS it is becoming obvious that creativity is actally stifled in current communist societies. People are only taught vocational skills at school - no 'base knowledge' - because that hinders the politicians, where as job skills helps them get rich... confused

EDITED_BY: Jo (1110629492)


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Jo
Jo

member
Location: Sheffield, England
Member Since: 13th Dec 2000
Total posts: 517
Posted:When there's REALLY good robots though... biggrin biggrin

let's chill.

Jo. smile


Educate yourself in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Mint Sauce
veteran
Location: Lancs England
Member Since: 7th Sep 2003
Total posts: 1453
Posted:oh my god you are a mind reader i was just thinking of sending you a pm bout this will tell more latter when im not at work

before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)


bairie fen
lord high king of swingers *(now defunct)**(but will rise again ! !)*
Location: wild wiltshire
Member Since: 14th Jun 2004
Total posts: 165
Posted:robots ben ??????????
surely the change we seek is based around community and communication ?
but will there really be robots to do my gardening or will iget my daughter to be nice and help others who need it ? like the old lady next door who cant do her gardening ?
is my daughter a robot ? is there an off switch ?
utopian dreams are all well and good but how many wars will it take to get x amount of dictators out of power and stop them all knicking the robots ?
i really don't know and am a little tired , I shall however return when less so !
peace and love to you sire we share the smae name !
xxx to all
smile


fly fairies, fly high, fly wide and take no prisoners !!!!!!


ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:ben i agree 100% with you that the change we seek is based around community and communication, at the moment with society being the way it is people put their own individual needs for survival above others. having robots to do mundane tasks doesnt mean that humans can no longer fufill those tasks if they choose to. i think that by placing a shift on societys focus to learning and creating for the love of it will make people more caring towards each other as they will want to share their pashions with others

jo in my opinion communisim doesnt work as people still have to work jobs that they hate to better society and they still want to better their own social standing. so even though everyone is working together to benifit society they are doing it in a way that they dont necessarily enjoy.

i agree that there will be a desire to better oneself however it will be a desire based on wanting to improve oneself rather than needing to have more than everyone else.

the people with lots of power wont want to give it up hence starting in third world countrys where the aid would be warmly recieved. i think that all countrys who are offered a system that provides for everyone will have no choice but to embrace it as the people will demand it from their leaders.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


SCRUBS
SCRUBS

erm....can you smell parafin or is it me?

Member Since: 28th Feb 2005
Total posts: 146
Posted:Ben-ja-men I totally agree with waht you say however bein a fan of sci-fi i a have fears over the implimitaion of a robot work force
Read the Robot books by issac asimov



Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Utopia,,, you're living in it, it's all relative. If you had been born 200 years ago, how do you think your life would have been? pretty tough compared to today's standards. Things we just take for granted today, would have been considered "Utopia" back then.

Things, like medical technology that's eradicated diseases likr polio, and smallpox. Automobiles,,a trip that would have taken days now takes hours.. Passenger jets,,trips that once took months, now take hours. Yet we complain still,, about aiplane food, waiting in airports, flying with burnt wicks,,,mundane stuff when compared to concerns you would have had rounding the Cape under sail

We all have the option of choice in Western society, including the option to make bad choices. Here in Canada our welfare system allows for the bascis you noted in your origional post, food ,shelter, medical care, dental care, access to community recreational facilities, transportation. access to education..but still people exist on the system...how come? bad choices in my opinion. Now granted they don't have robots to clean their houses, but then again neither do I , or anyone else that I know for that matter. Compare the standard of living of someone on welfare in Australia to your average working person in a country like Honduras,,,Utopia? I bet your average Horduran would think so.

Zero tolerance?? the U.S. is working on this philosophy at the moment,,,three strikes,,war on drugs. and is it working? Yet sitll thousands of people from third world countries illegally immigrate there. Even the dirt wages they usually earn are superior to what they'd make in say,,,,rural China.

People do all sorts of "bad" things, smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, take drugs, eat fast food, drive their cars too fast, spin staff, etc. why?? because they want to. Sure there's laws against some of those, and we're all educated on how bad these things are, but still they persist. Look at Thailand,,the penalties for drug abuse there are brutal compared to Western standards, yet they have a massive drug problem.

As to creating this Utopia out of a third world country. I suppose it's plausible, but not probable, who would pay for this? it's going to cost billions, Hey maybe if we got rid of this weapons in space idea......or space exploration. after all who really cares about mars anyway? really?. That would compromise research and development, the kind of R&D that eventually gives us things like the internet and gps

I like the idea though. sign me up



Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Well done, Stout! I (mostly) agree.



Huge sweeping changes through any society, whether it is a country a city or even a family, will have long-running consequences, some good and some bad.



In my opinion, the best way to change the world is to inspire others to be better people.



Think of the way you acted in different situations over the last week. Could you have done things better and in a nicer way?



Let someone in in traffic instead of honking the horn at them?



Let someone yell abuse at you, and then say "i'm sorry you feel that way, hopefully things will improve for you soon." instead of abusing them back.



In general, try, deliberately and consciously, to be a better person than you were last week, every week, for the rest of your life. Some weeks it will work some weeks it won't, but keep that focus, and you have already changed the world into a better place.



The more we aspire to be better people, the more likely others will want to do the same thing.



The more people who try to be better people, the better the world will get. This will be a gradual change, and one that will not have opponents int he way that a sweeping social restructring will. There will be no apparent financial benefits to any select group.



If you want to change the world, change yourself first. And carry yourself in such a way that you don't need to bully people into changing too. After getting to know you for a while, they will decide to change themselves on their own, and the world truly will become a better place.



All in my opinion of course...

EDITED_BY: Charles (1110672226)


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SCRUBS
SCRUBS

erm....can you smell parafin or is it me?

Member Since: 28th Feb 2005
Total posts: 146
Posted:thats excelent advice charles.


EDITED_BY: rikstik (1110676145)



Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by: ben-ja-men

at the moment im of the opinion that the best way to break the self perpetuating cycle of poverty is to remove the welfare system and replace it by providing everyone with all the basic necessitys of life, meaning that everyone would have food, shelter, clothing, access to education and the materials required for it.



I would be interested to know what this offers that the welfare system doesn't, because I'd be one of the first to say the welfare system leaves a lot to be desired, although it does "work" to some extent.

At this stage in my life, I depend on the system more than I'd like to. From this, my family is entitled to enough money for food, enough money to live in a 2 bedroom house and enough money for clothes. My son already has access to education although it won't become compulsory until this September and I have access to education should I decide to pursue it.

So, if we were provided with the basic necessities you propose, would we have any choice in the details such as what we would eat, where and in what kind of home we would live in, what we would wear, where we were educated and what in? How would the appropriacy of these basic necessities be assessed?

Written by:
however in breaking out of the current state that western society is in and replacing it with another system there will be alot of opposition from people who are no longer able to buy alcohol, cigarettes, drugs and whatever else. as such i dont think that western society would be the place to make such changes.



Would they be unable to buy these things through lack of finance or through prohibition? confused

More details, please smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"


bairie fen
lord high king of swingers *(now defunct)**(but will rise again ! !)*
Location: wild wiltshire
Member Since: 14th Jun 2004
Total posts: 165
Posted:back to the robots again for a moment !
whilst a robot may take away the mundane in life, is it not in that very mundane, that we learn about ourselves and others, i can't begin to imagine a generation of people who have never had to do anything for themselves, rather than learning the rewards of hard work and a job well done. infact all i need to do is look at the molly cuddled eight year old terror brat at play group or the unbearable teenager, both of which have parents who do everything for them, leaving them seemingly with this the world is here to serve me attitude or the i can do as i please with no recompense attitude.
still don't think that robots are the answer ! i mean can you imagine ed 209 making some of the decisions that todays police force so often seem to get wrong ? do i really want a tomato that has been grown in a robo enviroment as oppose to a hand grown 'loved' tomato ? and as for having my clothes made by robots ? no way gimme materials and skills and the knowledge required for everything in my life, let me be self empowered and inspired, let me share what i have learnt with others and help them to help themselves.
and still my question lingers as to how many wars it would take to get the world to this equal level, and how that would then be controlled ? human beings are emotional creatures, all to often led and controlled by there emotioons, so even in utopia mr x falls in love with mrs z, mrsz says no to mr x, is mr x gonna not care because his underwear will be irnoned and his 'food?' will be waiting on the table when he gets through the door.
all o fthese mundane tasks are the very simple pleasures in life to me cooking, growing things and caring for my immediate environment both animal and plant .
starting to loose my thread have only just got out of bed !
anyway down with the robots and up with the people i say, stop putting our problems outside of ourselves and looking for easy soloutions.
I'd re program my robot to grow weed and cocoa, then i'd sell that to others who do not know how to re program robo's and use the money to buy myself other things that i have not learnt to make / grow !
lots of love
xxxx


fly fairies, fly high, fly wide and take no prisoners !!!!!!


ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:rikstik asimov has some interesting ideas and the futures he writes about could happen and quite possibly will if people dont make a choice to help shape the way in which the field of robotics developes, it all comes down to what value system and purpose of existence that robots are given/taught

stout i disagree that utopia is relative, i dont consider current society to be anything close to utopia, when i walk through town and have homeless people so smashed out of their mind that they cant even slur out the words to ask me for money. or when there are generations who live off the welfare system with no dream to ever contribute to society. to me this is not utopia.

as for zero tolerance and the war on drugs, do u think that people would sell drugs if it was a no strikes policy that carried the death penalty? do u think that people would mug others if it carried a death penalty, do you think that people would commit rape if it carried a death penalty. in comparision the benfits of crimes such as selling drugs currently far outway the risks especially for someone who has nothing to lose.

charles i agree that improving the way one carries oneself is an excellent way to to live, i disagree though that individuals acting only to better themselves will change the world while the current values of society are in place.

spanner the biggest difference between this system and welfare is that it ensures that everyone recieves all the basic necessities and the oppertunity to pursue whatever it is that they want to. it would also mean that everyone has access to all the required materials to pursue what they want to do. it would mean that when the time came your son would be able to study whatever he was interested at a higher degree level in without having to worry about things how to pay the rent, buy books, afford a social life, not to mention paying for the degree itself. yes you would be provided with the choice of what you ate, nutrition and different styles of cooking would be apart of the curriculum as it interelates well to other subjects

for example ive found that using examples like following a recipe is a great way of explaining the concepts of how to balence chemical equations to students. things like poi are a great way of explaining concepts like centripital forces, electrons existing in orbits, the photoelectric effect (poi throws) because the students can visualise them. 8 years of tutoring kids has shown me that every child can understand every concept if you can find a way for them to relate to the topic.

as for what you wear something that could once again be incorperated into schools whereby people could come up with the designs of their own clothes and have machines make them in much the same way a printer writes your essay up neatly for you. With machines to do construction and obtain raw material there would be nothing dictating that there should be certains trendy suburbs and certain areas that you dont want to walk around in after dark. as for whether everyone would want to strive to earn enough money to own a mansion i think that the shift in societies values would change and that huge homes wouldnt be as desireable for the energy to fill it such that it has that it has a nice vibe to it would be very difficult to maintain.

as for the appropriacy of the basic necessities being assessed, housing would be such that there where enough bedrooms for parents and children, a seperate sound proof study area with soft music playing the background, seperate living, dining, artistic endours space. food clothing etc would all be interlinked with schooling system/people provided with information and facilities to make choices about what they want.

as for things like drugs and cigarettes they would be contraband, alcohol wouldnt be contraband as a glass of red with dinner has been shown to be good for your health. with the change in societys values and structure priorities would be different and people wouldnt go out on a friday night to get; smashed, written off, hammered, totalled etc. the focus would be on enjoyment rather than drinking as much as possible to be manly.

some people might argue that drugs are a spiritual experience, having never experienced them and having no desire to i cant really comment on if it is or isnt. personally i feel that if drugs are a spiritual experience and enlightenment can be reached through travelling along a path of experience, that having such a spiritual experience through drugs is like jumping halfway along one of the paths or somewhere near one of the correct paths for a short period of time then jumping back to the start. with out having walked the path theres no point of reference so that you can return to that place as its brought about by an external stimulus rather than an internal state. i am of the opinion that anything that can be experienced via drugs can be experienced naturally through meditation.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:ben having robots to do mundane tasks doesnt mean that you cant do then if you choose to, if you find happyness in growing your own food by all means do that and take pleasure from it. it just means that you have the choice to, it also means that if you interested in astronomy you can persue it without having to worry about where your next meal is coming from and who is going to pay the bills.

one of the most important parts of the schooling system would be in teaching children how their actions impact others. all children have a natural desire to please their parents we are born with it however our society can inadvertantly teach children and their parents bad patterns which result in selfish children. by teaching children how their actions impact others and how to express themselves appripriately i believe they wont develope selfish patterns.

as an example when i was living in london my housemates where friends with a lady and her 14 year old daughter who lived in teh same complex, the daughter and her friend would home round and hang out without her parents knowing one day her mother had come up to have a drink with us and found her daughter there. she was furious at her daughter because her daughter had promised not to come up by herself. her daughter knew that she had done wrong but didnt understand the impact of her actions on her mother. i sat down with them and got them to express how they felt to each other (all i feel statements and not you did statements) and when her daughter understood why her mum was so upset she felt really bad and appoligied, that communication between them allowed them to say things to each other that they hadnt felt that they could say before and brought them closer together rather than creating a barrier between them.

as for robots making decisions like the police force i think that the problems which the police face are symptomatic of the problems in societys structure, by fixing the cause i think the problems will disappear.

if you want to make your own clothes awesome all the skills, knowledge and materials would be provided to you so that you could make your own clothes, whats more you would have the time to be able to learn to do it well.

as to the wars required i still think that once third world countrys are brought to the standards of first world countrys and the offer being put to other countrys to change their society to behave in the same way i cant see why a country would refuse such free assistence, i cant see the people of a nation staying happy and content with a leader who would refuse such things.

i agree that humans are emotional and that being rejected will still be a disappointment, i think that most of ill feelings arise from the feelings of rejection and the resulting feelings of worthlessness. i think that people who are educated into the working of the human psyche will still be upset but i dont think that it will be bad. when i have experienced emotional turmoil from relationships ending the relief ive found has been from personal growth and looking at the deeper issues within myself that make me feel bad about being rejected


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


SCRUBS
SCRUBS

erm....can you smell parafin or is it me?

Member Since: 28th Feb 2005
Total posts: 146
Posted:the current reality is that the third world wants the trapping of the third world and while it would be nice to build fromscratch with it , they are accelerating a breack neck speed to catchup/surpass us
sorry if this don make sense just woke up with sore head umm



Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:I think I see what you mean, Ben.



Written by:
as for the appropriacy of the basic necessities being assessed, housing would be such that there where enough bedrooms for parents and children, a seperate sound proof study area with soft music playing the background, seperate living, dining, artistic endours space.





There's a lot more to consider though: housing needs to accommodate disability, especially that which is progressive. And should a family require a space for endeavours which are not artistic (or even as well as artistic), such as engineering, would this be acceptable too? I chose this scientific example because I'd imagine the facilities required for such a space would differ greatly between the two and also because not everyone will be happy to limit their personal development to the arts, which is probably a good thing in this case because we're going to need people to program, maintain and develop the robot technology, not to mention input to reduce all pollution using it could chuck out.



This brings me to human input, though: we'll still need people who will supervise the above technology, as well as the administration of the idea as a whole. We'll still need to find people willing to allocate funds, supplies and the experience in each field to make the idea work, not to mention some existing manpower to continue some of the work we do today: emergency services is the first which springs to mind, as well as less urgent aspects such as healthcare and law.



But will these people be easy to find when each of us, given these basic necessities, no longer need to do this work in order to acquire money to survive? Will the greater good in general be enough incentive for them?



Written by:


as for things like drugs and cigarettes they would be contraband, alcohol wouldnt be contraband as a glass of red with dinner has been shown to be good for your health.





I don't want to turn this thread into a drugs debate, but...cannabis has also been shown to be a pain reducer more effective in many ways and for many people (although I must stress, not all ). What's to be done about that? I can honestly say for some people experiencing chronic pain, a death sentence isn't a deterrent if they've already got one in the form of a progressively debilitating and/or terminal illness. Ecstasy has also been shown to relieve Parkinson's disease, bizarrely enough. So, do we stop where we are on that? I'd say no, but again, we're going to need the human input to research it further.



Written by:


with the change in societys values and structure priorities would be different and people wouldnt go out on a friday night to get; smashed, written off, hammered, totalled etc. the focus would be on enjoyment rather than drinking as much as possible to be manly.





I'm not convinced that society's values and structure have the final say on personal priorities, especially regarding alcoholism, but I'm going to think about this one for a while smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"


ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:according the work of drs hal and sidra stone people take drugs and drink excessively to escape from a negative dominant sub personality eg inner critic which is constinantly critising what a person does in an effort to help keep them safe by telling them off before they make a mistake.

as for drugs for medicinal purposes that is something that would require more research, however some cases of chronic pain are symptonatic of the mind and a dominant negative sub personality, one example presented in drs hal and sidra stones work is a woman who has suffered chronic stomach pain every day for three years, after having seen every specialist around she went to dr hal stone for help, her main subpersonality that she identified most with was a doer, which ment that her disownedself (opposite subpersonality for whatever u embrace u reject the opposite) was being, when she shifted into the being subpersonality all the pain disappear, when she shifted back into the doer it all came back and so forth. Im not by any means saying abolish medicine but instead evolving it to be a more wholistic approach combining current medical practises with natropathic and pyschological treatments.

as for non artistic endeavours can you be a bit more specific? engineering type research would be paid in the same way that being a therapist would paid difference being drs wouldnt be working stupid numbers of hours and have limited resources. i think ppl will want to contribute to the running of society not only for the helping others factor but also so they can afford to go stay at a beach house or go sky diving or go skiing etc etc


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:Written by: ben-ja-men




as for zero tolerance and the war on drugs, do u think that people would sell drugs if it was a no strikes policy that carried the death penalty?









They do in all the countries where the death penalty is applied, as they get paid a bit more for the risk. Hell theres an Aussie girl currently facing the death penalty in Indonesia for getting caught flying in with a Key of Weed or something. I mean how dumb is that? Everyone in Aus knows that the Indos are very very tough on drugs.



People will always believe that they are 'special' and that it wont happen to them. Totalitarianism is not the answer.



Written by: ben-ja-men




charles i agree that improving the way one carries oneself is an excellent way to to live, i disagree though that individuals acting only to better themselves will change the world while the current values of society are in place.







I agree with Ben Its all well and good to be honest in a dishonest world, but if ppls values are different (eg prefer money over honesty) then you wont win them over by being honest and poor. People's values need to change.



Written by: ben-ja-men




spanner the biggest difference between this system and welfare is that it ensures that everyone recieves all the basic necessities and the oppertunity to pursue whatever it is that they want to. it would also mean that everyone has access to all the required materials to pursue what they want to do. it would mean that when the time came your son would be able to study whatever he was interested at a higher degree level in without having to worry about things how to pay the rent, buy books, afford a social life, not to mention paying for the degree itself.



as for the appropriacy of the basic necessities being assessed, housing would be such that there where enough bedrooms for parents and children, a seperate sound proof study area with soft music playing the background, seperate living, dining, artistic endours space. food clothing etc would all be interlinked with schooling system/people provided with information and facilities to make choices about what they want.









Sounds like a voucher system to me instead of a monetary one, which I think wouldnt be a bad idea, although you would need unhackable central control over distribution cuz otherwise youd get a black market in vouchers emerging.



In principle I agree with Ben on this to an extent, I hate it when I see kids who are missing out on necessities because their parents need to buy a carton of smokes every week. Spanner, just cuz the welfare system works for you doesnt mean it works for everyone, and you only have to look at the intergenerational patterns of welfare dependence to see that its definitely failing some people.



Written by: ben-ja-men




some people might argue that drugs are a spiritual experience, having never experienced them and having no desire to i cant really comment on if it is or isnt. personally i feel that if drugs are a spiritual experience and enlightenment can be reached through travelling along a path of experience, that having such a spiritual experience through drugs is like jumping halfway along one of the paths or somewhere near one of the correct paths for a short period of time then jumping back to the start. with out having walked the path theres no point of reference so that you can return to that place as its brought about by an external stimulus rather than an internal state. i am of the opinion that anything that can be experienced via drugs can be experienced naturally through meditation.





I think you undervalue the potential learning and healing effects of some drugs Ben. And you certainly MUST outlaw alcohol if you are going to outlaw any mind altering drugs, as its blatantly the most destructive (although Nicotine must give it a run for its money).



The prohibition culture actually leads to more kids doing drugs in more damaging ways. Look at the Dutch eg; less dutch kids do drugs than other european nations and esp. the UK, and its one of the only countries in the world where its basically legal to do drugs.



Prohibition doesnt work (never has) and leads to more social harm than government regulation, and govt regulation takes money away from organised crime, and can be put to help those few ppl who continue to fall off the horse so to speak.



Josh

EDITED_BY: Josh (1110781787)


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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!


ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:Written by: Josh

People will always believe that they are 'special' and that it wont happen to them. Totalitarianism is not the answer.



possibly there will be individuals who will have that attitude or just not care, i guess the step to prevention is to look at what caused her to take such a great risk, i would guess that it would a feeling of having nothing to lose.

Written by: Josh

Sounds like a voucher system to me instead of a monetary one, which I think wouldnt be a bad idea, although you would need unhackable central control over distribution cuz otherwise youd get a black market in vouchers emerging.



i disagree to give an example at adelaide uni the undergrads have to pay for photocopying and printing, when the credit machine malfunctioned everyone abused it because suddenly something they had to pay for previously was free, ppl printed book and all sorts of rubbish. The postgraduates however have free printing and photocopying and because the facility is always there for them to use free of charge they only use it when they need to rather than trying to take advantage of it.

Written by: Josh

I think you undervalue the potential learning and healing effects of some drugs Ben. And you certainly MUST outlaw alcohol if you are going to outlaw any mind altering drugs, as its blatantly the most destructive (although Nicotine must give it a run for its money).



can you elaborate on what sort of potential learning your talking about? as for the healing effects i think that it is possibly an alternative means of achieving the same results of voice dialogue like in the example with the woman with chronic stomach pain stepping out of her primary subpersonality into her disowned self, instead of doing it via voice dialogue using for example cannabis as an external means to bring about the change.

i agree that alcohol in excess is very damaging, in moderation it has positive health benifits, i think by teaching children the effects that it can have both positive and negative and a shift in social values will change the perception of "coolness" and result in people not abusing it.

Written by: Josh

The prohibition culture actually leads to more kids doing drugs in more damaging ways.



i believe that to be the result of children rebelling against their parents because of conflicting groups that they feel the need to please, i think a society which is taught how to express itself in a positive open way would not have the same problem


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by: Josh

Spanner, just cuz the welfare system works for you doesnt mean it works for everyone, and you only have to look at the intergenerational patterns of welfare dependence to see that its definitely failing some people.



I absolutely agree Josh, because at no point in my ongoing battle through the welfare system, as a parent and carer, did I say it actually worked for me. With respect, really, I'm one of the last people you'd have to tell that to.

I'm not going to go into too much detail right now because I've just had a something of a medical emergency on my hands, have come here to calm down and wouldn't want emotion to get into the way of good debate.

In theory, my family is entitled to these things, but in practice, it's been a battle to receive what we've claimed so far and I don't expect it to get any easier when we push for our full entitlement. It's no bed of roses here, mate.

I will return to discuss some other points and maybe a little more on this one later on - just wanted to clear up this misunderstanding while I was passing through.

smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"


DoktorSkell
DoktorSkell

addict
Location: Van Diemans Land
Member Since: 11th Jan 2005
Total posts: 475
Posted:

Ben-Ja-Men

You never fail to bring me the well needed Intelligence in the eye of the storm that is Home of Poi.

All of your posts are meaningfull and Sp?intelectuallySp? pleasing

Keep it up mate


Fair luna bright, fair luna moon
it shines at night but fades too soon
fair luna moon, fair luna bright
forever we dance
we dance under starlight


Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:Written by: ben-ja-men


i disagree to give an example at adelaide uni the undergrads have to pay for photocopying and printing, when the credit machine malfunctioned everyone abused it because suddenly something they had to pay for previously was free, ppl printed book and all sorts of rubbish. The postgraduates however have free printing and photocopying and because the facility is always there for them to use free of charge they only use it when they need to rather than trying to take advantage of it.





That seems like a very limited example. Im not sure of this but AFAIK, during war and in times of ration there are always underground blackmarkets in rations. The way that I see it, if it was unregulated, whats the difference between how its done now and how you are suggesting its done? There are plenty of ppl that successfully negotiate the welfare system and get housing and education and all of the things you suggested (I think) and manage not to spend it all on smokes and booze. but those arent the ppl you are trying to help - you are trying to help the ppl who cant manage the money as a lump sum.

And additionally, its not in the interests of the economic powers in our society to allow anyone and everyone unlimited access to education, after all, people may not be happy with the inequity if they realise that as human beings they are entitled to more.



Written by: Josh

I think you undervalue the potential learning and healing effects of some drugs Ben. And you certainly MUST outlaw alcohol if you are going to outlaw any mind altering drugs, as its blatantly the most destructive (although Nicotine must give it a run for its money).



Written by: ben-ja-men


can you elaborate on what sort of potential learning your talking about?





for example the US government is considering administering troops coming home from Iraq with E in an effort to increase the efficacy of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder treatments. Its also been used as part of Marriage Coucelling to help couples open up to each other in ways they are not able to otherwise. Also - psilocybin (mushrooms) has had good results in helping terminal cancer patients come to terms with their coming death.

While I agree that it is possible to use meditation to achieve all sorts of states of consciousness that are normally achieved through drug use, meditation requires far longer and far more committment from the subject, I would suggest perhaps prohibitively more IMHO. And although this can be a good thing (you value what you earn), I dont believe it is always so. Bear in mind that many people all around the world who are deeply into meditation have used psychotropic drugs to enhance their meditative states. I would go as far as saying that medice men / women are the people who have been the pioneers of the psychedelic drug culture.

Written by: ben-ja-men


As for the healing effects i think that it is possibly an alternative means of achieving the same results of voice dialogue like in the example with the woman with chronic stomach pain stepping out of her primary subpersonality into her disowned self, instead of doing it via voice dialogue using for example cannabis as an external means to bring about the change.

i agree that alcohol in excess is very damaging, in moderation it has positive health benifits, i think by teaching children the effects that it can have both positive and negative and a shift in social values will change the perception of "coolness" and result in people not abusing it.





Ben, There may be something in red wine that is healthy, but Ive not seen overwhelming research suggesting that its the alcohol itself that is healthy. I wasnt saying red wine was bad, just the alcohol in it. Alcohol is massively addictive both physically and psychologically. it does more damage to our society than any other drug, followed by nicotene. you gotta ban them if you are going to have a philosophically justifable position on baning other drugs smile

Written by: Josh

The prohibition culture actually leads to more kids doing drugs in more damaging ways.



i believe that to be the result of children rebelling against their parents because of conflicting groups that they feel the need to please, i think a society which is taught how to express itself in a positive open way would not have the same problem



There can be no doubt that it is extremely important to educate, and the relaxation of prohibition in the Netherlands was / has been coupled with an education program - but I just dont see how you can justify banning some addictive / damaging drugs and not others. How is it that you allow people to have control over one way of altering their mind state, and then prohibit others? Meditation can surely replace the affects of alcohol too no doubt :P

Josh


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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!


Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:Sorry Spanner - I know a few single mums on Welfare that walk around complaining about all the other single mums that cant make ends meet on Welfare (Single mums are one of the most disadvantaged minority groups in Oz), so I misinterpreted your comments. Cant say I'm glad to hear its a battle for you tho frown I really hope you and yours get what you need hug



Josh

EDITED_BY: Josh (1110797381)


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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!


ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:smile thanx doktor

Written by: Josh

That seems like a very limited example. Im not sure of this but AFAIK, during war and in times of ration there are always underground blackmarkets in rations. The way that I see it, if it was unregulated, whats the difference between how its done now and how you are suggesting its done?



what i was trying to get across with the example was that if you know that something is always going to be there for your use theres no urge to abuse and make the most of it because it will be there for you to use tommorow if u need it. i think that the difference with your rations example is that things are not in abundance and people have the attitude of everyone for themselves. one of the other main differences would be that the system would be inplace to make things easier for people, my understand of most welfare systems is that they make it very difficult to recieve payment so that only those who are truely in need will pursue it all the way through to deter people from abusing it.

Written by: Josh

And additionally, its not in the interests of the economic powers in our society to allow anyone and everyone unlimited access to education, after all, people may not be happy with the inequity if they realise that as human beings they are entitled to more.



i agree this is why it would need to start in a third world country where there would not be resistence from governing bodys to such change. once such a system is shown to work i dont see how any economic power, being a minority in society would be able to stop such changes occuring without sparking a revolution of sorts.

Written by: Josh

While I agree that it is possible to use meditation to achieve all sorts of states of consciousness that are normally achieved through drug use, meditation requires far longer and far more committment from the subject, I would suggest perhaps prohibitively more IMHO.


i think with the state that society is in now that your statement is correct, i think that if concepts such as psychology and meditation where taught a young age that it would be considerably easier as the blocked systems would not have so many blockages.

Written by: Josh

Bear in mind that many people all around the world who are deeply into meditation have used psychotropic drugs to enhance their meditative states. I would go as far as saying that medice men / women are the people who have been the pioneers of the psychedelic drug culture.


im sure that it is one possible path of many to reach such a state

Written by: Josh

I just dont see how you can justify banning some addictive / damaging drugs and not others. How is it that you allow people to have control over one way of altering their mind state, and then prohibit others? Meditation can surely replace the affects of alcohol too no doubt :P


fair point, but where do u draw the line then, if u allow psychotropic drugs then why not coke or worse still crack? shall ponder it some more smile


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?



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