Forums > Technical Discussion > ball chains breaking?

Posted: 5th Mar 2005
oh dear.... looks like i should have done a BETTER durbs....

Written by: vanize

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the ball chain will heat fatigue and break long before the useful life of your monkey fists is over.



and ball chain is the only chain to spin with if you ask me, but you need a way to replace the ballchain before it fails, which it will - particularly if it is so close to the fire as to actually be part of the poi head.

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so i'm gonna buy some new chain 2mos to be safe....
EDITED_BY: Psycho_lemming (1110009764)

Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering...

Posted: 5th Mar 2005
which are the best chains to use for fire poi?

Posted: 5th Mar 2005
Psycho_lemming, also make sure the new chain you buy is Stainless steel (not some coated stuff). It will last longer with your fire poi. Also, don't ever use the aluminum stuff with your fire poi. They will break off almost instantly.

Posted: 6th Mar 2005

There are a bunch of problems with ball chain, but that doesn't mean you can use it or wig out if that's what you've got.

The first problem with ball chain is that it comes in *many* different grades, and the stuff strong enough for poi *not* easy to find. You must use a *minimum* guage of #13 stainlees steel or #15 nickel plate steel. Anything else *will* fail in short order. If you purchased from a reputable shop, you should be ok. If you purchased from "some guy" you might want to think twice.

The second problem is that even the above recomended ball chains still suffer from metal fatigue. Even the above chains can and will fail. It's simply a matter of time and how you spin. If you have heavy wicks and do a lot of wraps, your chains might go before your wicks. The important thing here is to inspect your chains on a regular basis. When you can see the balls start to "open up" it's time for replacement.

Final problem is construction. The end connectors of ball chain must be CRIMPED in place! I witnessed a failure as a result of this first-hand, and although the poi were commercially made (and rather well otherwise, I might add) none of the connectors were crimped and would slide off rather easily. Special crimping tools are made for this purpose, but a pair of pliers will do a decent job. Since then I've been inspecting other ball-chain rigs and found that this is not an isolated case.

If you've got a set of ball chains and never inspected them, do it NOW!

-p.

Posted: 6th Mar 2005


OK this has been brought up so many times that its hilarity is wearing thin.

For once and for all this is the answer to the question.

There is no "Best" cord for poi. its all matter of personal preferance.
As long as it is a quality piece of stainless steel metal work, Ball chain.
Oval link chain. or Wire is fine. Its just up to you to see which you prefer.

I personally use oval link chain because i like my poi heavy.
If you are going to use Wire get 2mm stainless steel wire from your local ship chandler.

If you are going to use ball chain or oval link, get it from the HoP shop.
Just replace your ball chain regularly and follow the crimp instruction and you should have happy safe spinning

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it shines at night but fades too soon
fair luna moon, fair luna bright
forever we dance
we dance under starlight

Posted: 8th Mar 2005
to reiterate and back up what others have just said, ballchain has many many advantages over other types of chain or cable, but one minor and one major disadvantage:

minor: connectors need to be tightly crimped

major: heat fatigue. 13 gauge stainless steal (SS) will heat fatigue fairly quickly - count on about 50 burns maximum for 13 SS. when you start to see the spreading mentioned earlier, flip it over so that the heat fatigued and is now near the handles and not the fire - this will give you another 30 to 50 burns or so.

15 gauge SS will last significantly longer - as long as 100 -200 burns per side, but it will eventually fail as well - it is important to keep an eye on it.

stainless is stronger/more resistant to heat fatigue than nickle plated steel (NPS). furthermore, NPS has a nasty habit of eventually starting to shead its nickle plating, which can actually cause metal splinters to lodge in your skin. Also SS is significantly more corrosion resistant than NPS. SS cost something like 50-100% more than NPS, but it will last as much longer than to make it more than worth the investment.

if you have really large wicks, I recomend even considering finding yourself 20 gauge ballchain. I have never seen 20 gauge fail, but it is significantly heavier. you can use the same exact connectors with 20 guage as you use with 15 gauge BTW.

neer use anything besides steal for fire poi, and nothing les than 13 gauge. for practice poi, I have used 10 gauge brass balllchain for years and years without it ever failing, but put that on fire poi the same weight as those practice poi and it wouldn't last a couple burns. I once made the mistake of buying 13 gauge aluminum ballchain thinking it would be pretty for practice poi, but after about 15 minutes of spinning (witout fire) the aluminum fatigued and broke.

but even if you are not using ballchain, there is still a risk of failure from heat fatiuge - I have seen traditional link chain and quite sturdy looking swivels fail too. so ALWAYS cheack your equipment before and after a spin - handles, links, chain, wicks, bolts, everything!

One of these days I am going to get around to writing up that ballchain article for the HoP article section...

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Posted: 8th Mar 2005
my 2 euro cents:
be sure when you insert the ball chain inside the connector to have it suficiently open:
do not force the pin that links the balls, inside the connector, or you'll mark the pin and it will break even sooner than expected

need to order some more from HoP, can't find any in Paris
have a clue what it's normally used for?

Posted: 8th Mar 2005
Anyone care to explain the gauge system for ballchains since it doesnt seem to make sense from any sort of wire/metal working sense. The higher the number the thinner the metal usually.

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Posted: 8th Mar 2005
In this case, the higher the number the larger the ball associated with the ballchain. For fire poi, you need at least 13 guage, 15 is better though. For really large poi heads, 20 guage works well.

Posted: 8th Mar 2005
Yeah I realize that I was just curious how they figure the "gauge" since it doesn't work with any sort of jewelers or metalworking methods that I know of.

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Posted: 8th Mar 2005
In any metal working trade the higher the guage the bigger/stronger it is...Ballchain, aircraft wire, twisted oval link chain...

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Posted: 8th Mar 2005
gauges of stuff go as follows for those non metal workers

the lower the number the thicker the metal
take piercings for example
the thiner the metal the larger the number

Posted: 9th Mar 2005
I think the proper term for the sizing of ball chain is not "guage" but rather "trade number" or "trade size".

Personally, I have (and spin) poi made from aircraft cable, ball chain, and twist chain. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages.

As an aside, one of the reasons you see so many poi made from ball chain is that it is much easier, quicker, and cheaper to build poi using ball chain than anything else. If you are paying a premium for ball chain poi, you are getting ripped off!

-p.

Posted: 9th Mar 2005
Thanks PJ, that makes more sense to me.

ImmortalAngel, sorry but you're wrong, the higher the number the thinner the metal, 20g is smaller than 16g. That goes with any of the many various gauge systems out there.

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Posted: 10th Mar 2005
sorry lurch, but you are wrong when it comes to ballchain - 20 gauge is about 4 times thicker than 10 gauge:




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you are correct if you are talking about shotguns...



gauge also gage (gj)

n.

1.

a. A standard or scale of measurement.

b. A standard dimension, quantity, or capacity.

2. An instrument for measuring or testing.

3. A means of estimating or evaluating; a test: a gauge of character. See Synonyms at standard.

4. Nautical The position of a vessel in relation to another vessel and the wind.

5.

a. The distance between the two rails of a railroad.

b. The distance between two wheels on an axle.

6. The interior diameter of a shotgun barrel as determined by the number of lead balls of a size exactly fitting the barrel that are required to make one pound. Often used in combination: a 12-gauge shotgun.

7. The amount of plaster of Paris combined with common plaster to speed setting of the mixture.

8. Thickness or diameter, as of sheet metal or wire.

9. The fineness of knitted cloth as determined by the number of loops per 1 1/2 inches.



electrical wire is smaller with a bigger gauge # too I think. and body piercing jewelry as well?

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Posted: 10th Mar 2005
Argh I don't want to start a huge argument about it

Yes, wire, jewelry, sheet metal, shotguns etc, they are all smaller the larger the number which is why I was asking about the gauge system for ballchains.

From every ballchain manufacturer site I've looked at they are never refered to as 'gauge'. They are based on their number (Number 30 chain for example), just look at your picture, but that is not the same thing as gauge. As PJ said it's probably just a term use issue

Ask any metal worker about gauge systems and they'll be telling you the same thing I am. At least until you start getting into high quality work with very demanding tolerances. It doesn't make sense to me an I was curious if its just a term being used wrong, of there actually is a system for gauges and what exactly that system is.

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Posted: 14th Mar 2005
yes, well, I agree with you for the most part, but if you ever hear anyone say 15 gauge ballchain, rest assured it is biggre than something they will call 10 gauge.



the definition is there to point out that gauge mearly refers to a size measurement of diameter, but there is actually no set way for it to be measured from small to large or inverse - gauge increases with increasing size for railroads for example, but deacreases with increasing size for wire.



there is no universal set gauge rule, though there are at least standards within some industries that are usually followed. I will agree that most things follow the inverse size relation trend, but not everything, and just because it doesn't follow what you expect in that regard doesn't mean it isn't a measurement of gauge.



brush sizes also follow the # rule as you pointed out (and bigger numbers = bigger brushes), but technically this is in fact a statement of gauge as well, so...



however, ballchain is messed up in that it isn't even a linear gauge to size relation - 20 gauge being like 4 times the size of 10 gauge... at last in ball size - the wire between balls might be only twice the size though... not sure about that.



anyway, I'm just being horribly pedantic as usual, so

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!