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What is psychology?- Looking for a black cat in a dark room. What is psychoanalysis? Psychoanalysis is looking for a black cat in a dark room -- in which there is no cat -- but finding one anyway.
Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
What is psychology?- Looking for a black cat in a dark room. What is psychoanalysis? Psychoanalysis is looking for a black cat in a dark room -- in which there is no cat -- but finding one anyway.
Educate yourself in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
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Written by:
So good people behave in ways that are mainly good; responsible people behave, on the whole, responsibly; idiots behave idiotically etc, etc.
Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
Written by: spherculist
But what made them good, responsible or idiotic in the first place?
I'm confuddled,
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
"Firework shops are like porn shops for Pyros"
Written by: i8beefy2
Free will vs. determinism debate: essentially, two warring schools that claim contradictory views. Namely:
Free will - to most views, exclusive to humans, but can be extended to all higher order lifeforms. Any action attributable to such beings is "free" in as much as the choice to act or not to act is not causally determined by prior states of matter, and mind. While these things may influence the "choice", or execution of the will, they do not causally lock the person into acting in one and only one manner. "Though this may happen, I can chose to act this way or this way".
Determinism - Everything is causally determined by prior states. Though it appears any of our actions are "free" in that we "can imagine having acted otherwise, thus it is possible to have acted differently", prior mental states which are caused by experience of the universe and biological determinism are the true attributable cause, not a real "will" that is free. Like gears in a clock, "if this happens, then this happens".
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
"Moo," said the happy cow.
Written by: onewheeldave
I disagree with your definitions- using those definitions is actually setting yourself up for the 'problems' of free-will you later expand on.
The issue of whether an individual 'could have acted differently' is substantially meaningless- time can't be re-run to create the exact same circumstances/states of mind etc, to make that meaningful.
But, just suppose time could be re-run; in that situation the person with free-will would act exactly the same as they did before- they would act in accordance with their own nature, and the choices that come about from that nature.
If they acted differently, then that is far from free-will; it's down to some random fact that they have no input towards and thus is the antithesis of free-will.
What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
"To my delight, I discovered that poi are amazing movement exploration tools. They are guides. They are teachers. They are like Yoda, only smaller and on strings." --Nick Woolsey, also known as Meenik
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Written by: nearly_all_gone
But Dave, this definition is determinism. I'm yet to see how your definition of determinism is compatible with free will - it seems as if you're arguing that free will is another name for a "feeling" or something within a wholly deterministic universe. If we are truly making choices based on earlier causes, then that's just determinism. If causes are affecting the course of our thought or actions, and they are the basis of our activity (so that if we reached the same point in our lives in a possible world where the causal chain was the same we would act in the same way again), the universe is deterministic and we have no free will.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Written by: onewheeldave
The point of what I'm saying is that free-will is based on determinism.
I'm claiming that the traditional view, that free-will and a deterministic reality are incompatible, is incorrect.
In fact I'm going further and saying that determinism is a pre-requisite for meaningful free-will.
What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
What is psychology?- Looking for a black cat in a dark room. What is psychoanalysis? Psychoanalysis is looking for a black cat in a dark room -- in which there is no cat -- but finding one anyway.
Written by: nearly_all_gone
I don't see how you are, to be honest. It seems that you're saying that in a deterministic universe we can "take charge" at any moment, but that can be accounted for by determinism. We may have the illusion of choice, but if the course of our actions is defined by causal influences then there is no free will. Your posts haven't yet expressed how free will enters the equation at all - only that though we appear to have choice, we will always choose in the way that is dictated to us by causal, fundamentally deterministic influences. Hence it's still just determinism.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Written by: onewheeldave
Of course it can be accounted for by determinism- my definition of free-will requires that determinism is a prime factor in free will.
The source of our disagreement lies soley in our different ideas of what the definition of free-will is.
For me, free-will is the act of a conscious being making a choice based on the deterministic workings of his/her mind.
Based on stored experiences and aquired reaction patterns, a being faced with options chooses- for true free choice it is vital that that minds processes are deterministic.
For example, a mind with multiple randomising factors- that, when faced with similar options, ends up doing widely varying actions, is not a mind equipped with choice or free will.
=======
If you're still disagreeing on reading that, then can I ask you to give me a clear and consise example of a free choice?
It would help me greatly to see your viewpoint if you could give such an example.
What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
Written by: nearly_all_gone
....... We decide based on the meeting of various causal factors, but choose in a way that is free of any causal thought process. So if shown two cakes, I might choose cake a in one possible world and cake b in another for no reason other than I could have chosen to do differently.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
Written by: i8beefy2
The ability to CHOOSE is still there, but we are victoms of the past and will choose exactly as is causilly determined. They are COMPATABLE.
There was once a person who carried this to the extreme and said something along the lines of "The only real freedom we have is suicide". I don't remember who he was, just an interesting side note... to me anyway.
What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
What is psychology?- Looking for a black cat in a dark room. What is psychoanalysis? Psychoanalysis is looking for a black cat in a dark room -- in which there is no cat -- but finding one anyway.
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