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Jo


Jo

member
Location: Sheffield, England

Total posts: 517
Posted:Ok, another psychological hot potatoe this one. Basically if proven a lot of good lawyers could get a lot of dangerous people released from prison, which is why it has not yet become a 'mainstream' concept.



IMHO! wink



Whenever you do anything - ANYTHING! - your concious self has not used free will at all to make that decision.



Actually, your subconcious has decided to do it.



You can then, if you wish, execute 'free won't'.



How many times did you realy have no reason to reach over there? Failed free won't execution.



Ever hit someone? Shouted?......... smile



Jo.


Educate yourself in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Dut - very nice biggrin as I do believe it's history repeating anyways... Meaning that we are living the past (again) until we "break the chain".... Some Buddhists claim that "abolishing all desires" will be the way - which is opposed (also by me, myself and I - at the same time) not because I like to be stuck in the desire, but do not want to replace one desire (or many) with another... (the desire to be free of all desire)... this is a merry go round, you know.

"Free will" (in my understanding) is in fact "free" action... "free" action (in my understanding) is in fact action free from my very own programming as much as possible. To approach every one and every situation like new, to experience the moment in the moment and truely see the situation "as is" and not with my deterministic glasses... Meaning that when looking at some picture I usually only identify what I know already. Everything I don't know, my mind is trying to make up some explanation for (ex. GOD, mysticism)... this is a biological process and amny times it's helpful. Many other times it just keeps me from seeing what really is...

So in fact "unconditioned action" is achieved in not putting together the pieces with the mind, but with the heart - with something that is not trying to analyse and finding explanations, but is taking the moment AS IS...

And this unconditioned action will most likely be the right one - suiting the situation...

No? Anyone disagree?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:Written by:
So in fact "unconditioned action" is achieved in not putting together the pieces with the mind, but with the heart - with something that is not trying to analyse and finding explanations, but is taking the moment AS IS...



this is simply action which is determined by a lack of understanding. sorry, its still determinism. ignorance is not freedom.

Written by:
And this unconditioned action will most likely be the right one - suiting the situation...

Anyone disagree?




Yes. By not understanding a situation and going on uninformed instinct you claim someone is more likely to come to the 'right' (whatever that means) decision???

confused

On the contrary, I would suggest that by examining a problem, and evaluating evidence by tracing parts of the deterministic networks - ie trying to gain as deep as understanding of the multiplicity of causal factors as possible - one is likely to make a better choice.

We dont predict the weather, or climate change by complete guesswork because our hearts say everything's gonna be fine, we hypothesise, empiricise and simulate in order to gain a greater understanding of the system.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: Stone

Jeff (fake) I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Perhaps, as suggested, Ive never actually practiced free will, but I do know it exists. Its in the Bible - Genesis 2:16-17. Adam and Eve, fruit from the Tree of Knowledge in Garden of Eden and all that.


At what stage did you think that quoting bible passages would convince me?
Written by: stone

For 'free will' you need to be completely independent of determinism. You have to break the cycle of the deterministic or the primitive brain (the animalistic survival part of the brain). I suspect the deterministic survival program becomes what we call the self or ego or whatever we call it, when it takes that programming into our huge higher brain.



The higher brain functions are every bit as deterministic as all the others.
Written by: stone

To break the cycle we have to let go deterministic programming, or break the ego or self. When that happens we can have free will. It's like we become robots before we can escape being a robot.



The ego is generated by proscesses within the brain itself. There are certain techniques one can use to deactivate the region responsible and I suspect there will be some brain damaged people who lack the concept of self. However the death of the ego does not reder one free of determinism. Meditation is indeed thought to be one such way the ego can be shut down though.
Written by: stone

So, one question that remains is did we get or loose free will in the Garden of Eden?


Very interesting theological question. There is an interpratation of genesis that the eating of the forbidden fruit was man's rejection of eternal life and bliss in exchange for truth. I think that's what the ending of 'The Trueman Show' was hinting at when Trueman rejected his comfortable life and 'god' to learn to truth.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: FireTom

Some Buddhists claim that "abolishing all desires" will be the way - which is opposed (also by me, myself and I - at the same time) not because I like to be stuck in the desire, but do not want to replace one desire (or many) with another... (the desire to be free of all desire)... this is a merry go round, you know.




The focus tends to be on diminishing desire- this is a practical goal for humans to strive towards- total abolisment of desire is not a particularly practical goal for most.

Having said that, concerning abolishment, if it could be successfully achieved, then you wouldn't have replaced many desires with another- if you were left with a desire for 'no desire', then that would be an indication that you'd not abolished all desires.

Is it possible to achieve a state of 'no desire' without the desire for achieving that state? I don't know- I see no evidence to assume that it can't be done- however, as I point out above, it's not an issue that I need to be especially concerned about, as, practically speaking, most buddhists focus on diminishing desire, rather than abolishing it.




Written by: FireTom


"Free will" (in my understanding) is in fact "free" action... "free" action (in my understanding) is in fact action free from my very own programming as much as possible. To approach every one and every situation like new, to experience the moment in the moment and truely see the situation "as is" and not with my deterministic glasses......


No? Anyone disagree?




I disagree- 'free will' does have a component of freedom; but it also has the component of 'will' and, IMO, 'will' requires determinism; as dream says-

Written by: dream

On the contrary, I would suggest that by examining a problem, and evaluating evidence by tracing parts of the deterministic networks - ie trying to gain as deep as understanding of the multiplicity of causal factors as possible - one is likely to make a better choice.




'Free will' is not the same as 'free action'- the will of a human being is not expressed through random actions carried out with no regard for the collection of desires, aims, thoughts, feelings and past experiences that make up that being; rather it is contingent upon and determined by precisely those factors (IMO).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Jeff (fake) some of you guys are so stuck in this deterministic brain that you cannot even imagine that it is possible to escape the programming. . So when you ask for proof I suggested you really have to experience some things to know them. Perhaps, as an example try comparing free thinkers and robotic thinkers. Like the Dalai Lama with to the Pope or Gandhi to Bush. The bit from the Bible was to demonstrate that this is a very old discussion, and perhaps there are some answers in the Bible.

I dont accept that for free will you need to be completely independent of determinism. As suggested, if everyone is essentially a big, programmed computer. Then all we need to do is stop the program. Break the deterministic cycle. Then clear the space to create your own programming. I think having the ability to create your own programming is free will.

Like it says in the Bible Genesis. In the beginning God created heaven and earth. Now the earth was a formless void, there was darkness over the deep, with a divine wind sweeping over the waters.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted:Depending on your theological persuasion, some would say that Adam had free will, but when he chose to do evil he and all his ancestors became enslaved to disobedience. Thus, no one can now choose to be perfect, and no law can save us. The messiah, who the Bible calls the "second Adam," also was free to choose good or evil, and chose good when Satan tempted Him. Through His sacrifice, we can be freed from our slavery to evil that we were born into, and become "born again" into a new life where we will one day be restored to a perfect state of being.

The Bible has very strong language indicating that we do not have free will to "choose" to be saved. It suggests that we are only able to be sinners, and that no one can be perfect. Thus, we cannot "choose" to come to God through our own free will. Instead, God must choose to save us despire ourselves.

(Of course, there are many Christians out there... particularly Baptists... who would disagree with this. But I think Romans Ch. 8-9 is pretty clear on the subject.)

So to me, it really doesn't matter whether we are talking about a "will" existing in the physical or spiritual realm, neither one is free.


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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: Stone

Jeff (fake) some of you guys are so stuck in this deterministic brain that you cannot even imagine that it is possible to escape the programming. . So when you ask for proof I suggested you really have to experience some things to know them. Perhaps, as an example try comparing free thinkers and robotic thinkers. Like the Dalai Lama with to the Pope or Gandhi to Bush. The bit from the Bible was to demonstrate that this is a very old discussion, and perhaps there are some answers in the Bible.


I would suggest that you don't fully grasp what we mean by 'free will'. When we say 'free will' we mean something that's outcome hasn't yet been determined yet somehow isn't random. Now the Dalai Lama and Gandhi didn't do anything that would be considered 'free will'. Nor did Einstein or anyone else you care to mention. Within our universe it simply isn't possible. Neither you nor I can ever experience it and no one ever has.

Of course I dare say you might have had some experience in an altered state of mind which might have felt like free will. But there is a world of difference between feeling like something and actually doing it.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: jeff

I would suggest that you don't fully grasp what we mean by 'free will'. When we say 'free will' we mean something that's outcome hasn't yet been determined yet somehow isn't random. Now the Dalai Lama and Gandhi didn't do anything that would be considered 'free will'. Nor did Einstein or anyone else you care to mention. Within our universe it simply isn't possible. Neither you nor I can ever experience it and no one ever has.



Though, as is apparent from other posts on this thread, some of us don't go along with your definition, and believe that free-will is entirely possible.

For me, a manifestation of free-will is any choice made by a being which is determined by that beings state of mind, based on his/her beliefs/past experiences etc.

To that extent, determinism and free-will are compatible, in fact, determinism is an essential component of free-will.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:well put and concise ditto clap

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

For me, a manifestation of free-will is any choice made by a being which is determined by that beings state of mind, based on his/her beliefs/past experiences etc.



Such a thing is a demonstration of will, but it certainly isn't free. I would argue that that definition simply isn't free will.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Jeff (fake) I think people really limit their possibilities when they say stuff like Within our universe it simply isn't possible. Neither you nor I can ever experience it and no one ever has.

Ive done that, with the choice exercise- completely exercised free will.. So its possible, even easy, to do something where 'free will' that's outcome hasn't yet been determined yet somehow isn't random.


Choose smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:You have yet to provide any evidence and your testemony is highly dubious. As anyone who has tried a hallucinagen will tell you, feeling something to be true is not the same as it being true.



What is the 'choice exercise'? Why do you feel that you experience free will through it? How can you possible know the outcome wasn't predetermined?



EDIT:



Or to put it more pointedly- The practical consequences are WHAT?

EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1140043471)


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Well said OWD, it's all starting to make sense smile

Written by:
To that extent, determinism and free-will are compatible, in fact, determinism is an essential component of free-will.



Jeff (fake) previous remarks about tree hugging new age hippies, suggests that any evidence I provide will only be disputed. Also, it has nothing to do with drugs. I was referring to the use of Shamanic herbs in their religions, as distinct from monotheistic.Abrahamic religions. Though, I suspect its no coincidence that some people see some of these plants as possible candidates for the mythical Tree of Knowledge.

The practical consequences are: the real world does not exist inside your head. The real world exists outside you head. Heaven is not up there, its out there.



ok


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Dut
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

lurker
Location: Nashville, TN

Total posts: 380
Posted:Written by: Stone

Well said OWD, it's all starting to make sense smile

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Written by:</font><hr />
To that extent, determinism and free-will are compatible, in fact, determinism is an essential component of free-will.



The practical consequences are: the real world does not exist inside your head. The real world exists outside you head. Heaven is not up there, its out there.

ok



OWD actually just makes the terms "free" and "will" inseperable in his definition. This is exactly what jefffake is saying. You couldn't, for example, explain to me what you "will" is "free" of without getting into an infinite regression. one person feels bound by the physics, one feels freed by the seemingly infinite amount of constant change. but both are saying the same thing.

-- dut


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Not really Dut, if you understand what OWD is saying, then I think there is a significant difference. I think you are right about the physics though. Let check.

Hey, Albert what do you reckon about all this?

Perhaps some people have been given a large brain by mistake, since for them the spinal cord would surely suffice.

Howz that then?

"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest...a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." Albert Einstein

cheers wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:It appears this is a matter of faith for you.

Further rational discussion would thus be pointless.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Stay a robot then.

We all have the capacity for free will, though it can be difficult to acknowledge this because the deterministic driven brain is very strong.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Dut
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

lurker
Location: Nashville, TN

Total posts: 380
Posted:Written by: FireTom

Dut - very nice biggrin as I do believe it's history repeating anyways... Meaning that we are living the past (again) until we "break the chain".... Some Buddhists claim that "abolishing all desires" will be the way - which is opposed (also by me, myself and I - at the same time) not because I like to be stuck in the desire, but do not want to replace one desire (or many) with another... (the desire to be free of all desire)... this is a merry go round, you know.

"Free will" (in my understanding) is in fact "free" action... "free" action (in my understanding) is in fact action free from my very own programming as much as possible. To approach every one and every situation like new, to experience the moment in the moment and truely see the situation "as is" and not with my deterministic glasses... Meaning that when looking at some picture I usually only identify what I know already. Everything I don't know, my mind is trying to make up some explanation for (ex. GOD, mysticism)... this is a biological process and amny times it's helpful. Many other times it just keeps me from seeing what really is...

So in fact "unconditioned action" is achieved in not putting together the pieces with the mind, but with the heart - with something that is not trying to analyse and finding explanations, but is taking the moment AS IS...

And this unconditioned action will most likely be the right one - suiting the situation...

No? Anyone disagree?



kinda, but again, i'd use differences in wording. how do you get "heart" except by having a lot of experiences and compressing the knowledge of how you should react to the world into a format you don't have conscious "read access" to (to use computer terms). you could say the decision is "unconditioned" by current circumstances (therefore somewhat more in line with "instinctual", right? not overanalyzed and second-guessed?) and "free" in that sense, but it will always be conditioned by who you are as a person (a person with your exact background, or who has had all your exact physical interactions, with your genes, etc). it very much makes your "will" more "free" the more new interactions you have or the more ways your able to look at things, but it's still based on a freeness that uses a human baby as the blankest slate possible, which is in no way "free of programming", but relies on it even more than detached analysing. you're seemingly right so often because you're programming is that good - so good it seems like it's not even there. exactly the same principles we try to put into the technology we create. wink

stone, some of us do eventually want to make our slates blanker than humanly possible (humans are fragile) and able to have more different interactions than reality would otherwise produce without our help. maybe that makes us robots -- i prefer the term "transhumanist" -- but by a relativist definiton of "free" that should only make us "freer", shouldn't it? if i'm right about the physics, then i'm golden as the rest of this is just a restatement that it doesn't matter what you set as your baseline of "100% free", most of us seem to have have the same understanding of what the limitations are currently and how to see around those limits.

hehe. good chat guys. i'm digging being able to get this out and stitch it together at the same time.

-- dut


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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Dream I was not talking about ignorance - even if it means bliss to some... I was talking about less analysing and judging upon the situations... (now I do not want to bother around with a hundred methaphores)... As we know now, a sutiation is far too complex in its deterministic processes as to fully get a grasp on it. But this is not necessary anyways. The meaning of the situation and the immediate circumstances are enough to make the "right" decision.

One example: going down the road with the motorbike, a dog crosses right in front... what deterministic insights do you need in this? Any analysing with kill you AND the dog... therefore immediate action is required... and if you were smart enough, you know already how to slow down and avoid an obstacle with a motorcycle without crashing. You don't have to go through all individual phases (pull front and rear brake, open rear brake and close front brake so breaking motion is applied to the road without any of the wheels slipping...) There is not even time and opportunity for adrenalin to kick in. The adrenalin rush comes a split second after - if it came in that moment maybe you'd not even be able to react "cold"-blooded...

In interaction with humans: You don't need to know EVERY single detail for interaction. It's enough to know rudimentary information to get along, hence if you want to make a psychoanalysis or -theraphy, interrogation is a must. But some even do not need the interrogation, but "see" you in the very moment - exactly pointing out what is going on and supplying aid to help. Someone coming up, weeping will need a hug in that instant a lot more than information-gathering...

"Will" for me is MUCH more than just thinking... it's the stage between thinking and action, but it's definately more than just a thought (to me)...

But I am not saying that nobody should gather information and/ or base their actions only and exclusively on instinct (not in a world where people are so far away from their hearts anyways, better speaking where people consider themselves not bound to instincts). I am saying that gathering informations and making it grounds of your decision and action you should question your objectivity and know that

a) sometimes the situation requiring action is history already
b) you will sometimes NOT be able to get the necessary clues from the information gathered.

Everyone has DIFFERENT associations with some specific situation. While someone is extremely jealous, another can sit next door to his "adultering" girlfriend and fix the engine of his car (in an extreme state of mind). This is about programming. The said situation seems unimaginable to some, but the guy who was telling me about it was giving good reasons for him staying "cool"...

Conclusion to me: my programmed mind is many times in the way of making an appropriate decision/ taking the logical action and I do act under the influence of my parents, my peer group and my cultural background. This works half way back home, but somewhere else... it fails!

Cat's are nice > 70 pounds BMI (body mass index)... wink

"Heart" would be not opposing to "Mind"... with "Heart" I mean a more compassionate reaction, regarding the other AND yourself: How does it go together (or not), where and how far can I really administer help/ action AND - foremost - WHICH help does the other really need?...

Right, Dut (if I got you) "Heart" is also sort-of "programmed"... and if one has no access to this information it will not be possible for him to base a decision on "Heart"...

Patriarch: Some of us choose to feel guilty on something they really comitted - if you have nothing else to feel guilty of and consider this a lack in attitude... let me tell you: if you urgently need something to feel guilty of - choose Adam, but don't get angry about the Eve's... they did what they had to do...

AND YES: PERSONALLY I WOULD CHOOSE TRUTH OVER ETERNAL LIFE - ANY DAY! Thanks, Eve... hug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:Reactions - such as your biker and dog - have nothing to do with heart or free will. They have everything to do with subconscious thought and determinism.

John Gray writes a really good chapter about subconscious thought, the extent to which it determines our actions, and why free will is a myth in a section of 'Straw Dogs,' its well worth reading


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: Stone
Stay a robot then.


That's not very nice is it?

Written by: Stone
We all have the capacity for free will, though it can be difficult to acknowledge this because the deterministic driven brain is very strong.


In your opinion.

I take a practical viewpoint on all of this - it really doesn't matter. Whether we really do or don't have free will makes no difference to my perception of myself and my "choices".

Besides, there are plenty of experiments to show that we act before our brains could be physically aware of danger (i.e. flinching from touching hot objects before a signal has time to travel along the nerves to the brain and back) and certain types of brain damage that will cause people to lose the ability to make conscious choices.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted:Eve did not choose truth, though. She chose a lie... God had told her the truth about the fruit, but the serpent decieved her into believing a lie: that she would not die, and that she would be like God. I personally would choose the truth and eternal life, over a lie and death - any day.

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Adam and Eve chose to learn the truth about the difference between good and evil, at least according to Genesis.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Dut
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

lurker
Location: Nashville, TN

Total posts: 380
Posted:Written by: Patriarch917

Eve did not choose truth, though. She chose a lie... God had told her the truth about the fruit, but the serpent decieved her into believing a lie: that she would not die, and that she would be like God. I personally would choose the truth and eternal life, over a lie and death - any day.



maybe this isn't exactly the right place for this, but something I never got was -- isn't the serpent just another face of God? so one incarnation of God tells her one thing about the fruit and another later tells her something else, and she believes the latest word, how is she wrong?

-- dut


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:first patriarch you really don't know what you would do curiousity and shame and all that

second dut i have NEVER heard that the serpent was an incarnation of God
depending on the interpretation the serpent is Satan or one of his followers, either way it was a fallen angel
Satan aspired to divinity but could not and took a host of angels with him, he has the option to redeem himself and he doesn't
from a nonchristian perspective people might consider him a god of sorts but in no way should that ever be considered in the Christian perspective. he was created, has limited knowledge, could be uncreated theoretically, definitely not all powerful


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Dut
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

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Posted:Written by: faithinfire

first patriarch you really don't know what you would do curiousity and shame and all that

second dut i have NEVER heard that the serpent was an incarnation of God
depending on the interpretation the serpent is Satan or one of his followers, either way it was a fallen angel
Satan aspired to divinity but could not and took a host of angels with him, he has the option to redeem himself and he doesn't
from a nonchristian perspective people might consider him a god of sorts but in no way should that ever be considered in the Christian perspective. he was created, has limited knowledge, could be uncreated theoretically, definitely not all powerful



haha. yes, i realize there's entire pantheon of extraneous beings, places, and events put between god and the serpent to mask the fact that either God likes suffering as much as happiness or that he has 0 control over the universe. i'm specifically skipping over all that. by christian rules, God created the serpent. if anyone created the lie that led the to the fall of to the pair in the garden, it was God himself. in fact, he was essentially using himself to lie to himself, which is WAY schitzophrenic by today's standards.

the whole story just shifts the original moment of "free will" to an angel named Lucifer instead of a girl named Eve. Same problem, different character (wow, they even call both of them "the Fall" -- odd). and i thought God was outside time and had a Plan for my life anyways (damned baptists). christian views are so contradictory within themselves it's hard to keep all their explanations of why straight... confused

-- dut


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:two falls in two different planes of existence...
God being outside time is a deceiving way to put it because it makes it sound as if He is seperate, but really maybe a better way to put it is beyond time or existing all at once and everywhere
i don't see how the fall and plan and free will are contradictory


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Genesis 3: "Now the snake was the most cunning animal that the LORD God had made."

Seems fairly clear cut to me.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted:I don't think the two options given by Dut are the only two possibilities. Dut suggested that either

1. God likes suffering as much as happiness, or
2. He has 0 control over the universe.

I think there are other possibilities to consider, such as:

A) God likes happiness more, but is temporarily allowing suffering for some purpose.
B) God has decided to give up some control (given some beings the option to choose freely).


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:@ Patriarch: your conception of Eve and the consequences for mankind from her actions (to me) is just *** - let me ask you:

You think that Eve should suffer more than Adam? Just as a consequence... and

Which parts of the Bible do you consider to be

- taken literally
- taken methaphorical
- originate from "god"
- originate from men

Maybe this is the foundation of the "HoP official Bible thread"... ?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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