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Forums > Social Discussion > Christian Voice - The most dangerous group in the UK?

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton

Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by:
They have taken on Jerry Springer: The Opera, the BBC and are now are planning to tackle abortion clinics. So who are Christian Voice?

Plenty of people have things to say about Christian Voice. John Cryer, MP, called them "fundamentalist thugs". The moderator of the United Reformed church calls them "a disgrace".

Their controversial protests against the "blasphemy" of Jerry Springer: The Opera involved publishing the home phone numbers of BBC executives. They also persuaded cancer charity Maggie's Centres to turn down a 3,000 donation from the show, threatening demonstrations.

Now they are planning to take on abortion clinics. So who is behind this group?

They are a small protest network, led by Stephen Green who describes himself as ex-Anglican and ex-building trade.

The heart of his mission is to return Britain to the 1950s. Back then, he says, it was a Christian country. Ever since, it has been turning away from God and sinking into immorality. Mr Green says he can cite 57 laws that have corrupted Britain in that time.

The "blasphemy and profanity" exemplified by Jerry Springer: The Opera are only two of his concerns. Others include familiar evangelical targets such as divorce and homosexuality; he has a particular concern over gay police. Less obvious enemies include globalisation, GM crops and the EU ("an antichrist totalitarian regime").


This kind of treatment is exactly what our Lord Jesus Christ said that those who follow him should expect
Stephen Green
He is currently angered by the royal wedding, which he condemns, whether in church or registry office.

"Colonel and Mrs Parker Bowles should have been divorced for adultery, but they weren't because that would have been too embarrassing," he says. "So in the eyes of God they are still married."

He likens Christian Voice to John the Baptist who preached against the incestuous marriage of King Herod.

"We're saying to the Prince of Wales: 'You cannot have your brother's wife.' This woman is still married to someone else."

Mr Green has been leading Christian Voice for more than a decade, without causing much of a stir, and became its first full-time employee only 15 months ago.

He is cagey about membership figures, but indicates that they are more than 600. By way of comparison, the Evangelical Alliance lobby group represents about a million Christians.

Notoriety

The new prominence of Christian Voice seems to be largely a matter of good luck and good timing, although depending on your position it may be the influence of the good Lord.

It had previously led anti-blasphemy campaigns targeting the BBC, the Sunday Mirror, Peter Tatchell, and the play Corpus Christi.

But in complaining about Jerry Springer, it had an enemy that caught the imaginations and consciences of a large number of Christians, so it was able - by a viral e-mail and letter campaign - to mobilise the phones of many people not usually connected with Christian Voice.

Mr Green has then multiplied the impact of that campaign through the offence caused by his choice of soft targets. First Christian Voice gained major media coverage when it was reported that BBC executives received death threats after he published their home numbers.

Now the cancer charity Maggie's Centres has turned down a donation from the opera, and Christian Voice is heard loud and clear again.

The publicity that came to Christian Voice over the reported death threats was obviously unintended, but Mr Green is clearly eager to capitalise on his notoriety, using it to get his anti-abortion protest on the front pages.

Yet, when I suggest to him that Springer has been good for Christian Voice, he is ambivalent. He does not seem to have been inundated with money and new members, but has had plenty of threats and abuse over the phone. (Mr Green's website is, to be fair, as free with his own phone number as he was with others'.)

"This kind of treatment is exactly what our Lord Jesus Christ said that those who follow him should expect," he says.

On the other hand, when I tell him of John Cryer's statement that Christian Voice are "fundamentalist thugs", he seems rather to relish this kind of persecution.

'Disrepute'

"He ought to wash his mouth out with soap and water," he declares. "He should withdraw those comments or resign. He brings politics into disrepute."

But he talks neither in anger or sadness - he laughs heartily and seems to be enjoying himself.

Mr Green disapproves of teaching about other religions in school and especially the celebration of Diwali.

Nevertheless, he has some admiration for Sikh protests in Birmingham against the play Behzti, but says Christian Voice "don't throw stones through theatre windows".

Would he draw the line at breaking the law? Green answers thoughtfully: "Yes... unless the law contravenes the law of God."



Any opinions? It seems religious fundamentalism and zealotry is gaining popularity daily..


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: upandover



God wants you to be happy, and when you life revolves around things like homosexuality you push aside the joy God wants to fill your life with.





Does god filling me with stuff involve penetration? If not, I'm all for it!


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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maus
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

maus

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Sihanoukville, cambodia

Total posts: 4191
Posted:
 Written by: Brit_Joe


Not only that, but how can anyone question being anti-abortion? Nobody really wants a world where babys are aborted, you cant argue that its wrong be be pro-life. I know its not a perfect world and certain circumstances arent allways perfect for pregnant woman, but that dosent mean being against abortion is unethical.





MCP put it very well on this point. Women can question being anti- abortion.
I was adopted and because of this was always very anti-abortion.

I always said that if I ever got pregnant, no matter what the circumstances, if I couldn't keep it, I would still have the baby and give it up for adoption like my biological mother had done for me.

At the age of 16 I was young, naive, thought I knew alot more than I actually did, and inevitably made a mistake.

My views on abortion were so strong, I was dead against it, However once it was me in the position that undoubtedly many young ladies have been in, the decision I made was that of abortion.
It wasn't that I didn't believe in the sanctity of life, I did and I still do greatly. However, at that time what I had inside me wasn't a life. It had no heartbeat, no brain, no feeling. Yes a few weeks down the line it would have, but at the time it didn't.

Sometimes in our lives we have to do things for ourselves, sometimes they may seem selfish and hurtful, but they are necessary.

They are not easy decisions to make, but when you make them you have to be able to look at the bigger picture. As a man you may well never be able to fully understand this.

 Written by: mcp

What being in an imperfect world means joe, is that in this world, it is unethical to be anti-abortion.



Couldn't have said it better myself.



Also Joe, you say bring back the 1950's and even the 1900's.

This baffles me. As a homosexual man I would have thought that this would be one of your worse nightmares. In the times we live in now you are, as a general rule, accepted, no matter what your sexual preferences may be. In the 1950's and earlier, you most certainly wouldn't have been.

Can you please explain the reasoning behind what you said?


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spinningstarlet
SILVER Member since Aug 2006

spinningstarlet

enthusiast
Location: Bradford *rolls eyes*

Total posts: 271
Posted:a little off topic but this just reminded me of a poster i saw on the bus on my way to work this morning - a child will cost on average 160,000. to bring up over it's lifetime. until it's an adult.

I'd like to think that should i bring a new life into this world i would be able to give it the best chance, the best life i could. and i couldn't do that at this stage in my life.

And i was brought up Catholic, my dad is Irish and is the fifth of nine. he has four brothers and four sisters. Because they don't believe in contaception. Things change, whether people like it or not, and while the ideals behind something can stay the same, the details and logistics of it have to change too, to stay relavent to the current society.

People need to think for themselves about what path they want to take. I chose to stop practicing catholicism because there were so many aspects of it i just did not agree with, and while some parts make sence i cannot commit myself to something i do not believe in 100% but i made this decision for myself.

i don't have a religion, i just have a set of ideas, i try to be a good person, based on that, and well, hope for the best i guess.

(hope that was all relavent...!)


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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Bloody Irish wink

Love is the law.

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doctor_fandango
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

doctor_fandango

co-director of A.C.B.I.S.H.A.
Location: in the corner beside the filin...

Total posts: 761
Posted:so let me get this straight, theres a group of extreme christians looking to get more power and force people to do what they want?

if so then they're not much different from most others, is there a thread for all the organisations that try to force ideas into people's heads?

may i reiterate Ado-p's statement ... Bloody Irish.


There's no place like 127.0.0.1, There's no place like 127.0.0.1, There's no place like 127.0.0.1,

"in most of our friends we're the hippies. but we have hippie friends of our own.. its like a dog having its own pet" - H. Sinoquet 19-03-2005

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burningbreeze
SILVER Member since Jul 2006

Member
Location: Newfoundland

Total posts: 7
Posted:The mother of a family of 14 is pregnant again. Her husband the father of all 14 of these children has a history of alcohol abuse and mental disorders which frequently causes him to abuse his other children. The mother herself is already worn out from trying to care single-handedly for her large family and doesn't feel she can care for another child at this point. On top of all this, two sons in the family also have a history of alcohol abuse, one of the children is in a mental institution, and none of the other children have steady, dependable jobs with which to support mom and dad. Abortion or Not?

If you answered Abortion, congradulations! You just aborted Ludwig Van Beethoven!

A poor black family in the South is expecting a fifth child. This family, because of its skin color, already has difficulty receiving help and are already at the bare minimum poverty level. The outlook for their present children does not look bright. Abortion or Not?

congradulations! You just aborted Martin Luther King,

When you consider aborting a child, you can't just look at what the fetus is now, this "no heartbeat, no brain, no feeling" thing, your distroying a life that has so much potential, you could be aborting the next president, great inventor, musican... and the list goes on. there are so many other options available for girls that are not able to care for their children, that there is no need to abort. for those that have been put in that situation, I could only imagine how hard a decision like that must have been. I feel for you, but if you ever again find yourselves in a similar situation, I hope and pray you will consider other options.


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spinningstarlet
SILVER Member since Aug 2006

spinningstarlet

enthusiast
Location: Bradford *rolls eyes*

Total posts: 271
Posted:I'm pretty sure that all options are thought about before a woman makes the decision to abort a child/fetus. Abortion is not a fom of contraception, and is never treated as such. It is not a case of *oh i'm pregnant, i'll go get an abortion* there is so much involved, councelling, all options are dicussed.

And it isn't an easy decision for a woman to make, that decision and the knowledge that they have done this will stay with them forever. They will spend time wondering what would have happened if they had made a different decision, what the fetus/child could have been?

I am lucky, i have never needed to go through this, but people close to me have, and i think until you are in that position, trying to make the best decision for yourself and your potential child, then you cannot judge, you cannot say what is the right or wrong thing to do. It is purely a personal thing and what may be right for one person can be completely wrong for another.


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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Congratulations

You just gave birth to Adolf Hitler

Congratulations

You just gave birth to George Bush

Congratulations, you just gave up your life.

I stand on the fense about the abortion issue, I do not have any children, nor am I am woman. These two things alone are enough for me to realise that I wouldnt have a clue about what I am talking about.

However, I believe that when considering a situation, you must do just that. There is no one rule for all, no matter how many people try to make it a reality.

Upandover, saying things like "you cant just look..." isnt fair. People can and will, do whatever they want and your belief system does not need apply to them. The responsibility is theirs to bear. The same applies conversly, I promise I will not come around to your house and try to explain how misguided I feel your intentions are.

I agree with with the doctor. The world is full of power hungry organisations. From the great religions, of which many have an undeniable history of murder, persecution, supression and manipulation along with the saving of souls and the one true path to salvation, To the great corporations, who lie cheat and steal in the name of capitalism, to world governments, which seem to be a combination to the previous two.

I believe Jesus was one of the greatest people who ever lived, along with moses, buddha, mohammed and a few others. I imagine he is turning in his grave when he beholds the hatred and disrespect some of his followers of today are propagating in his name.


Love is the law.

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spinningstarlet
SILVER Member since Aug 2006

spinningstarlet

enthusiast
Location: Bradford *rolls eyes*

Total posts: 271
Posted:*applause*

i think you just about hit the nail on the head there ado!


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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: upandover


The mother of a family of 14 is pregnant again. Her husband the father of all 14 of these children has a history of alcohol abuse and mental disorders which frequently causes him to abuse his other children. The mother herself is already worn out from trying to care single-handedly for her large family and doesn't feel she can care for another child at this point. On top of all this, two sons in the family also have a history of alcohol abuse, one of the children is in a mental institution, and none of the other children have steady, dependable jobs with which to support mom and dad. Abortion or Not?

If you answered Abortion, congradulations! You just aborted Ludwig Van Beethoven!

A poor black family in the South is expecting a fifth child. This family, because of its skin color, already has difficulty receiving help and are already at the bare minimum poverty level. The outlook for their present children does not look bright. Abortion or Not?

congradulations! You just aborted Martin Luther King,

When you consider aborting a child, you can't just look at what the fetus is now, this "no heartbeat, no brain, no feeling" thing, your distroying a life that has so much potential.



Or you're destroying your own life that has sooo much potential...

Why is this little fucker in your belly so much MORE special than you and your life? You're an adult already, you can change the world for the better RIGHT NOW. YOU. Not someone else you happened to give birth to.

HEY WOMEN! These two cells in your belly are MORE IMPORTANT THAT YOU! We don't care about your wellbeing, mental health or your control of your body, or you life, these TWO CELLS in you or MORE WORTHY or our PROTECTION and RESPECT than YOU are. You're WORTHLESS compared to them, so MUCH so, that we're going to have to STOP YOU damaging them, EVEN THOU they're part of YOUR BODY.

And I'm sure both martin luther king and ludwig van beethhoven would be happier if they didn't have to grow up starving, poor and abused because some idiot convinced their mother that abortion was wrong.

Maybe if the mother of 14 had aborted all subsequent 13, or used contraception, then the FIRST child would have been beethoven. Because he had a better upbringing and mroe resources to spend on him. (Maybe becuase he grew up happy and unabused, he wouldn't have been a creative genius, he would have just been happy instead. Result!) But we'll never know, becuase this is a totally pointless speculation into the past. In other words, such an argument is utter codswallop.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted:Yup, upandover's argument is pathetic* and misleading.



How about the mother of 14, with an abusive alcoholic husband, who has the 15th child, who then grows up believing that alcoholism is the only way to get through a horrible life? Who is taught to believe that child abuse is ok? Who then marries and abuses his own children, beats his wife and spawns another 15 people who will grow up this way and continue the cycle of suffering?



How many Ludvig Van Beethovens come out of families like this? One, by my last count. Compare that to the number of people who come out of families like this who end up living lives of extreme poverty and immense suffering. 14 in this example.



Furthermore, upandover's argument is not useful as it doesn't help anyone who is in the position of wanting/needing an abortion, to make their decision. upandover's argument attempts to draw conclusions from hindsight. This is not available in the moment when you have to make a decision.



Finally, I've heard the same argument since junior school, using exactly the same poster boys (LVB and MLK). 15 years and the anti-abortion lobby can't come up with fresh examples?!





*as in designed to appeal to pathos, ie sentimentality. Which is no substitute for appealing to reason.


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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted:Anyway.
offtopic very slightly perchance?


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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Edit



Carry on.



smile


Love is the law.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: upandover


The mother of a family of 14 is pregnant again. Her husband the father of all 14 of these children has a history of alcohol abuse and mental disorders which frequently causes him to abuse his other children. The mother herself is already worn out from trying to care single-handedly for her large family and doesn't feel she can care for another child at this point. On top of all this, two sons in the family also have a history of alcohol abuse, one of the children is in a mental institution, and none of the other children have steady, dependable jobs with which to support mom and dad. Abortion or Not?

If you answered Abortion, congradulations! You just aborted Ludwig Van Beethoven!

A poor black family in the South is expecting a fifth child. This family, because of its skin color, already has difficulty receiving help and are already at the bare minimum poverty level. The outlook for their present children does not look bright. Abortion or Not?

congradulations! You just aborted Martin Luther King,




I never found this logic very convincing.

Perhaps we should legalize rape since stopping a rapist before he acts may prevent the birth of the next nobel prize winning scientist. [Actually, rape's already legal in the bible if you've got the cash.]

Actually, by that logic, any time you decide not to have sex you're killing people in the future. Your decision to not concieve right now just killed your 5 year old 6 years from now. I hope you're happy.

wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: NYC


Actually, by that logic, any time you decide not to have sex you're killing people in the future. Your decision to not concieve right now just killed your 5 year old 6 years from now. I hope you're happy.
wink


Everytime you touch yourself you're 50 times worse than Hitler...


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Is it murder or suicide though?

Love is the law.

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iansmith


member


Total posts: 90
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


 Written by: NYC


Actually, by that logic, any time you decide not to have sex you're killing people in the future. Your decision to not concieve right now just killed your 5 year old 6 years from now. I hope you're happy.
wink


Everytime you touch yourself you're 50 times worse than Hitler...

Oh dear...... that must mean I'm REALLY bad!


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doctor_fandango
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

doctor_fandango

co-director of A.C.B.I.S.H.A.
Location: in the corner beside the filin...

Total posts: 761
Posted:on the matter of the catholic church and masturbation, i firmly believe that the "jesus cries when you touch yourself" campaign and other such restrictive thinking has lead to alot of people not comfortable in their own skin and sexually perverse.

imho if people are allowed to discover their own body in their own time then they will be more comfortable... anyway thats a little offtopic

kevlar soul, where did you get this article from? the 'quote' line is blank in the first post.

EDITED_BY: doctor_fandango (1159972114)


There's no place like 127.0.0.1, There's no place like 127.0.0.1, There's no place like 127.0.0.1,

"in most of our friends we're the hippies. but we have hippie friends of our own.. its like a dog having its own pet" - H. Sinoquet 19-03-2005

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:The post is over a year old, im not sure kevlarsoul is even around anymore.



as for the masturbators among us. I believe that any kind of repression is bound to manifest itself in some other fashion. Usually not in a good way. Hence the incredibly large number of christian priests that have been caught (but not charged with) sexually abusing children.



Quick question for those practising the christian faith. Are you all married? If not, are you waiting till you get married to have sex? In my experience (and I live in a dominant catholic country), a very minor percentage of people practice this. In fact, most dogmatic law seems to be fairly flexible on the grounds that you can confess your sins and be forgiven.



So do you go to confession then? Or do you just pray to god? Or do you just believe that deep down your a good person and breaking the rules of your church couldnt be helped and your sure god will understand and its not such a big deal anyway?



Im especially interested in the purity of the lives of those people that are 'anti abortion' and of those who are 'anti gay'....





Love is the law.

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spinningstarlet
SILVER Member since Aug 2006

spinningstarlet

enthusiast
Location: Bradford *rolls eyes*

Total posts: 271
Posted: Written by:

most dogmatic law seems to be fairly flexible on the grounds that you can confess your sins and be forgiven.





this confession malarky is all well and good, but the idea behind God's forgivness at confession is that you actually have to be sorry!



When i was practicing, i only ever confessed the things i was truly repentant for, i had/have sex outside of marriage (not about to get married at 19! umm) but i'm not sorry about it. so whats the point in asking for forgivness? i'm not going to be granted it. *shrug*



 Written by:

Or do you just believe that deep down your a good person and breaking the rules of your church couldnt be helped and your sure god will understand and its not such a big deal anyway?







and this is where i fall on the being a practising catholic (or one of the parts anyway) because i just cannot live according to the catholic faith. i do not belive that homosexuality is wrong. i do not belive abortion is wrong (see previous posts) etc. my own personal set of ideas is exactly that, that i can only try my best to be a good person by others and myself. But i kinda see that as common sense anyway.



anyhoo thats how i see it from my own point of view, after 17(ish) years of being a practicing catholic and living with my parents and sister who are all still practicing catholics. it'll be interesting to see what choices my sister makes as she gets older, she's 15 now and i am curious to findo ut how her faith shapes her in this day/age/society.



[edit - couldn't make the quotes work!]

EDITED_BY: toobie (1159976147)


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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:"i firmly believe that the "jesus cries when you touch yourself" campaign"

Tears of joy perhaps? wink


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maus
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

maus

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Sihanoukville, cambodia

Total posts: 4191
Posted:depends on who he's watching touching themself! wink

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maus
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

maus

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Sihanoukville, cambodia

Total posts: 4191
Posted:In response to post by Upandover





Ok, a few points on this.



Firstly i think your view on the is fairly blind sighted if I'm honest. The whole "Congratulations" parts in themself are horrendously disrespectful in themselves. I only hope these were not your word choices and that you copy and pasted that from somewhere else.



It is never an easy decision to make. Not for anybody. Everybody's situation is entirely differen. Mine was while I was only a child myself, I'm just glad i was mature enough at that age to make the right decision for myself, and the unborn child inside of me.



 Written by: upandover



When you consider aborting a child, you can't just look at what the fetus is now, this "no heartbeat, no brain, no feeling" thing, your distroying a life that has so much potential,





Yes. I can actually. Its called science. And thats also why abortion is legal up to 20 weeks gestation. It isn't a life at that point, in my opinion, butthats not to say its not a life to somebody else.



 Written by: upandover

you could be aborting the next president, great inventor, musican... and the list goes on. ,







And what if I'm meant to be the next great president, but because I had a child at the age of 16, I've had to alter my life choices?



 Written by: upandover

there are so many other options available for girls that are not able to care for their children, that there is no need to abort. for those that have been put in that situation, I could only imagine how hard a decision like that must have been.





Yes there are other choices. And perhaps if you had read my post properly along with other peoples you would see that that had already been pointed out.



 Written by: upandover

I feel for you, but if you ever again find yourselves in a similar situation, I hope and pray you will consider other options.





Hmmm... a little condescending if I'm honest. It's not an easy decision to make for anybody, no matter what their age or situation. And when making it you have to be aware that is is something that will stay with you for the rest of your life. I would be amazed if anybody with half a brain woud find themselves in a similar situation again, and I would also be amazed if they didn't consider other options in the first place.



Its easy to judge when we feel we're older and wiser and we're detached from the situation, but I would like to know what somebody with your opinions would do if they were in a situation where the option of abortion was on the list.

EDITED_BY: maus (1160145743)


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by: maus



 Written by: upandover

you could be aborting the next president, great inventor, musican... and the list goes on. ,




And what if I'm meant to be the next great president, but because I had a child at the age of 16, I've had to alter my life choices?




Well said and I'd like to add something: How about it being the next UnaBomber, A.Hitler, Stalin, Bush...?

As fot the other options: Fortunately enough I never had to spend years in orphanages. The stories I have heard (first hand) are not turning this into a preferred option for me.

 Written by: maus

Its easy to judge when we feel we're older and wiser and we're detached from the situation, but I would like to know what somebody with your opinions would do if they were in a situation where the option of abortion was on the list.



It's always easier to descern on other ppls lives and in the retrospective. Just when finding onesself in such a situation, one might get the idea. I do not wish this for anybody - it's certainly something that stays the rest of their lives - it does with me.

Yet I would do it again under certain circumstances, like an uncurable desease that would mean my child has to spend its entire life in a wheelchair, dependant on other ppls mercy, or similar...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: upandover


When you consider aborting a child, you can't just look at what the fetus is now, this "no heartbeat, no brain, no feeling" thing, your distroying a life that has so much potential,


You see those sperm over there? They could become a life too. Same with any random collection of molecuels. Nothing magical happens during the long proscess (a fact often ignored by those who talk about the "instant") of conception, nor at implantation, gastrulation (a far better time for the soul to be attached IMO), neuralation or anything. There is never any point when it becomes a human life. It's a proscess, a spectrum. You have to look at the fetus as it is at the instant, otherwise you descend into a scientificaly and theologicaly unsupported vitalistic "soul attachment" or an "every sperm is sacred" mind set.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Skulduggery
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

Skulduggery

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Location: Wales

Total posts: 8428
Posted:In answer to the question set at the start of this thread I would say , no Christian Voice isn't the most dangerous group in the UK. I don't agree with most of Stephen Greens views although I'm also against globalisation and GM crops (probably for different reasons he is), but I don't really think this man has started the most dangerous group in the UK. The group appears to have a very small membership and doesn't at the moment appear to be that much of a threat.



I'd say big business and the politicians pose more of a threat to the UK than this group.



Comments that have been made here about abortions cause me concern. I personally would like to believe I would never have an abortion, but as I've never been in a position where I'd have to make that choice I can't really say for sure.



I cannot condem those that have taken that option, because I'm not living in their shoes. I have no idea what caused them to make the choice they did. Who's to know that if I were in their place I wouldn't make the same choice they did.



It's very easy to condem, it's much harder to empathise. To those who have been brave enough to speak up about their own situations I hug you. That takes courage especially when you pretty much know that some nameless faceless person sitting behind a keyboard will come along and condem you for it.



As for the argument that in having a termination you could be aborting the next Pope/human rights campaigner/Messiah, that's the single most rubbish argument I've ever heard for anti abortion. As has been pointed out you could be aborting the next mass murderer/child attacker/Mageret Thatcher!



I also find the argument "It's gods will, the bible* tells us....." a lame argument too. Why is it people can't just be kind and loving towards each other without the threat of hell fire and damnation. Can we not be good/kind/loving/sharing/etc to/with other people without doing it just because we fear being smited by some vengeful all powerful being? If the only reason you are good to others is to get a better place in the afterlife, won't 'God' punish you for that, because thats not doing it of free will it's doing it for your own gain.



I'm not writing this to offend anyone, but I do find religious Zealots very hypocritical.



* for Bible read in any religeous scripts


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by:

Written by: upandover





When you consider aborting a child, you can't just look at what the fetus is now, this "no heartbeat, no brain, no feeling" thing, your distroying a life that has so much potential,











I guess tampons are body bags for unconceived children.



[I'm 100% positive that that's the grossest thing I've ever said on HoP. umm ]

EDITED_BY: NYC (1160050353)


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:is it gross because you mentioned used tampons?

Shouldn't it be: used condoms are bodybags for unconceived children?

Is it wrong that I think none of the above particularly gross?


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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maus
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

maus

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Sihanoukville, cambodia

Total posts: 4191
Posted:no, but it is remotely funny! wink ubblol

Skully- some good points. and thankyou. hug


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RayinRed
SILVER Member since Apr 2006

RayinRed

member
Location: Huntington, New York

Total posts: 39
Posted: Written by: NYC


 Written by: ] Written by: upandover


When you consider aborting a child, you can't just look at what the fetus is now, this "no heartbeat, no brain, no feeling" thing, your distroying a life that has so much potential,


[/quote



I guess tampons are body bags for unconceived children.

[I'm 100% positive that that's the grossest thing I've ever said on HoP. umm ]



That is pretty gross, no, thats really gross.



But getting back to the issues, abortion is one of those fundamental issues that no one is ever going to agree on. However, when one group on the far right or far left get too powerful, things start getting out of hand.



Look at the US, the christian right have become increasingly powerful and now...
-there is no more abortion in South Dakota
-we're building a wall to keep Mexican's out of America (like thats going to work)
-a good number of state constitutions have marriage clauses defining marriage as between a man and a woman
-bible belt schools are teaching "(un)intelligent design"
-we're still in [censored] Iraq



This is what happens when secular groups gain too much power. And as a jew/woman/queer, this is getting really [censored] annoying.


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