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Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > Floor/ceiling planes - what's the point?

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:I was thinking the other day about how I never do any moves in the floor or ceiling planes. I can't remember the last time I did a corkscrew, let alone anything more complicated. And there is hardly ever any discussion of floor plane moves in this forum, and I can't remember anyone ever coming up with genuinely new things to do in these planes. Add that to the fact that you basically have to force things to get in and out of these planes (unlike wall<->wheel plane transitions which are done by turning 90 degrees) I'm coming to the conclusion that there's very little point to these planes.

So who disagrees? Who can show me a move that's more interesting or pretty than just another windmill/buzzsaw/watermill turned on its side smile


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:I disagree strongly and commonly work in these planes, including lots of wraps and isolation stuffs. and you don't have to force anything really (tis only another 90 degree transition), and if you have to force then do a 90 degree transition first and then another 90 up.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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garthy
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

garthy

old hand
Location: Bristol, England

Total posts: 717
Posted:I agree that I never do any moves in this plane. biggrin

I think it's probably for the same reason - no clean way to get there (yet - Still working on those clean 90 degree plane changes Matt does)

I'm not so sure it's pointless. I've seen alot of people use it well. body wraps and PSI does some lovely horazontal Hyperloopy things.

But generally it gets ignored by me too. to much to learn in the one true plane wink

What you're saying when you turn your body to change plans is you actually only spin in one plane really if you draw them on the floor?


"**grumble*spuriouswindmills*grumble**" - Coleman
"if poi was only for girls there wouldnt be many good poi spinners...." - Nx

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:1- take forward bf... take the right hand over the left and bring it to the inner plane.. now twist your hands around clockwise (like the bottom of a corkscrew).. as the left hand comes over the right bring it back into the ttn for a beat.. and then twist back the other way..


2- take a CW wallplane inversio.. keep turning the axis of the inversion whihc should have you rolling inversion to inversions as you keeps shifting about the axi.. (like the last motions its not totally exclusive to those planes but uses them..

3- do the corkscrew equivalent to all your moves.. splitthreads.. inversions (yes I agree this is the stuff turned on its side. -but- that doesnt make them less important.. I mean that's like saying your weave looks stupid from the front because its just lvertical lines..)

4- work your different places.. do a corkscrew with one hand btb.. (has to be done i the side plane.. but still)

5- stop thinking about it in terms of moves, and start thinking about it in terms of -move through- you'll do mroe moving -through- these planes then staying in the planes.. until you get heavily into atomics.. and then you'll realize that you can do all your atomic stuff horizontal and vertical instead of 2 verts.. whihc combined with axis changes puts you -moving through- these planes a hella lot.. whihc would suck if you don't practice it..

this is just off the top of my head to.. I mean you can use these planes alot of changing from fron t to btb too.. so I mean.. what's the point in -not- using them?


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"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:I also disagree. While I admittedly dont use the plane much myself, I do know that it has lots of potential... Just as much as any other plane for the most part. There are a number of ways to gracefully transition between horizontal and vertical spinning as well as a lot of nice moves and variations that can be done while spinning horizontal. Perhaps if I ever get my camera back Ill do a completely horizontal vid smile

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Icon, that sounded dirty! wink

Anyway, what about sweeps? Helicopters? Horizontal buzzsaws? (they use both at the same time)
Atoms (only one is ceiling plane, but still)?

I don't know. I don't think of anything in terms of extracting planes, or even in moves really, but more of "This is how I get from here to there" at which point, everywhere I can spin is useful...straight plane or not. wink


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted:I've been thinking lately myself that I'd like to play more in these planes -- even just the basics, much less anything more "interesting." By basics I mean 4 bt. corkscrew, which I actually really love, especially when turning the body at the same time. I don't play it much because I haven't figured out a graceful way of incorporating it with my other "moves". Also the horizontal buzzsaw -- I like it better than the vertical, actually. Also have been experimenting with simple horizontal buzzsaw separations -- if you can call them that, just moving the two shortened poi spinning on the floor plane around my torso. If I moved those up to the ceiling plane, would they be helicopters? And what's a watermill? Oh don't tell me -- do a search. Got it. wink

The other thing I've done a couple of times is taking the horizontal buzzsaw separations, unwinding them and wrapping them around my torso (I like to think of it as 'touching the core' cuz that's what you're doing) then up into the corkscrew. Just that combo is nice, but I haven't figured out a way of transitioning out of it without just windmilling into something else. It's a natural transition, but for some reason the corkscrew into windmill leaves me cold. I'm rambling. I'll stop.


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Ah yes, I see how you could think that... But I wouldnt post such things in a public forum... You should send me a PM if you want THOSE kinds of vids wink

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted:Written by: Pele

I don't know. I don't think of anything in terms of extracting planes, or even in moves really, but more of "This is how I get from here to there" at which point, everywhere I can spin is useful...straight plane or not. wink



Pele, I'm working on getting there...I feel like I'm in a place where I know it's possible intellectually, but I don't understand it in my body yet.

Sorry if that was off topic.


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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Jo


Jo

member
Location: Sheffield, England

Total posts: 517
Posted:Yeah I'm trying to improve mine at the moment to smile

My favourite ways to get into or out of a corkscrew are actually from/to same-time butterfly!

I know that sounds a bit weird, but try it! Do a butterfly - nice - and - controlled, whilst thinking about the direction you want to turn, just turn. You'll hit it by accident quite quickly.

The principal, I think, is that the plane of one poi is 'snapped' 90 degrees in one direction, whilst the other plane is 'snapped' 90 degrees the opposite way.

So far I've only found two of these. Im sure theres got to be at least 8 of them... wink

Jo. weavesmiley


Educate yourself in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Written by: blueboy


Written by: Pele


I don't know. I don't think of anything in terms of extracting planes, or even in moves really, but more of "This is how I get from here to there" at which point, everywhere I can spin is useful...straight plane or not. wink





Pele, I'm working on getting there...I feel like I'm in a place where I know it's possible intellectually, but I don't understand it in my body yet.



Sorry if that was off topic.





It's the benefit of me learning long before the tech discussions and plane properness got involved.

Remember those days Jo?



Seriously, I was watching someone who focussed on planes and exact moves alot spin, and it was all, well....boxy. No diagonals, and really no top or bottom.

I find that in just letting go, no "plane" is left unexplored. wink The down side, sometimes you have no name, or no recollection of what you actually did. Then again, it is an upside, as you every spin will be a surprise! biggrin



(see, it is on topic wink )



*running off to PM Icon tongue *

EDITED_BY: Pele (1109304791)


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:(answering original post)

matrix and variation
full corkscrews(allround)
loops and throws
contact stuff

there be loads out there.


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Jo



My favourite ways to get into or out of a corkscrew are actually from/to same-time butterfly!

I know that sounds a bit weird, but try it! Do a butterfly - nice - and - controlled, whilst thinking about the direction you want to turn, just turn. You'll hit it by accident quite quickly.

The principal, I think, is that the plane of one poi is 'snapped' 90 degrees in one direction, whilst the other plane is 'snapped' 90 degrees the opposite way.




That sounds very similar to something I found with meteors: -

taking two seemingly unconnected moves- the one-handed butterfly (wall plane) and a floor plane rotor (this is basically the same as rotating a staff with both hands while it's about a foot off the ground and in ground plane)-

I found that it's very simple to pull up on a floor plane rotor and go straight into the one-handed butterfly. With practice it's also easy to drop from the butterfly into the floor plane rotor.

That's as far as I took it, but I've got no doubt that it's also possible to go from butterfly to overhead rotor and back etc.

Initially I found it a bit bizarre that it works as it does seem to transgress some law of physics- but it works fine and doesn't feel at all 'forced'.

I think that it's the same principle as what you're doing with poi Jo, as a floor plane rotor with meteors would, if the meteor could be split in two, become a corkscrew.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:Thats a damn fine sig-na-cha you got there Dave.



smile


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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:well, I have to disagree too.
when you are performing or busking with poi, you expect people to give money for your art. and in that one summer I actually did that I found out that if you do only wall planes, you will get less money.
for people who've never seen poi before, wallplanes look like just swinging a ball on a rope around you, and they will all think: "ahhh, I can do that too". now as soon as you put in some horizontal moves, many an "ahhhhh" might be heard.
if people came to us after shows, asking to have us show them some moves, and you starting with the vertical plane bit to get into weaves, they would almost always inmediately ask "how to do that horizontal thing".
I think that as a performer you really should do them.
if you just spin in private, you can forget about them.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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ataxia
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

ataxia

member
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 172
Posted:I've not really done it, but i've seen another snap a simple butterfly around into ceiling plane. I'm not sure if this has been talked about in other threads or if this is the concept people are talking about in this thread, but at the high point (stall point) of the butterfly you can snap it around into a ceiling plane. Must be timed well. I've only ever really seen it done with a one-handed butterfly however.
Then of course you need to wrap one to get into a corkscrew.


Geez, I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:PK used to always go from butterfly to corkscrew. Him and Rob do it duo on How To, and PK does it solo on just about all his vids.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Rovo
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

Rovo

(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Total posts: 544
Posted:I've been working with twisting weaves into 4 beat corkscrews recently and I think it will look cool once i can twist 90 degrees in any direction.This way I can keep switching from vertical to horizontal planes every couple beats. For now I can only do forward weaves to corkscrew to reverse weave and only in one direction with the corkscrew not both. But it's coming along.



Oh and I think horizontal planes are cool and pOp is right people love them. 360 degree turns with a 4 beat corkscrew is one of my favorite moves and people love it.


Peace, Love, Circles

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:i don't like the feeling of spinning horizontal plane, and never use them with staff or poi.

That's just personal preference though. Loads of horizontal stuff looks good. Just off the top of my head: Bluecat's matrixes look ace. The stuff Weasel Alex used to do, moving horizontal buzzsawy business around the body, that was real funky too.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Rovo
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

Rovo

(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Total posts: 544
Posted:Wow I never realized how easy it was to go from butterfly to corkscrew and vice versa. With poi you really do learn something new everyday...

I just went from forward weave to corkscrew to reverse weave all in front of me really smooth like. Although whenever I try to get back from reverse to foward I can't for some reason.


Peace, Love, Circles

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:I'm curious about the butterfly to corkscrew transition too, time to watch a few videos and experiment.

I found myself neglecting these planes also, I'd only think of them once I got to the " what do I do now" point in my spinning session, I don't dislike them ,,I think it's because I don't know a whole lot to do with them..

A few ideas,,sorry they're just corkscrew and buzzsaw variations but....

I find it's easier to turn my body 270 degrees when going from the forwards weave into the corkscrew. I find this transitions smoothly and gives me that extra time to ensure the top plane is indeed flat, and not at some strange angle. I can also choose between a split time and same time corkscrew while doing the spin, but I try to figure this out a little sooner. Of the two directions the corkscrew can be spun, I find the " going across my chest to the right" the easiest, I practice in both directions,, but if I'm going to "do poi" I default to the easy way. So anything I say in this post, this is the direction I'm spinning in.

With the same time corkscrew I find it fun to step over it, lift the left leg first,let the poi pass underneath it, then quickly put it down ,,,lift the left leg bring the poi out from underneath that then up into the ceiling plane. This can be done as many times as you like ( I usually do it twice ) and can be turned to the left as well. I've never pulled this off in split time

With the four beat corkscrew I stand with my feet about three feet apart and go down low by bending one leg, and trying to get the floor plane circles as close to the ground as I can. First I bend my right leg,,,low circles,,stand up for the ceilng plane ( feet still apart) then bend the left leg to take the poi back down, you can alternate back and forth as long as you like,,,, down on the right leg,,,up,,,down on the left leg,,up,, back to down on right....

I also find turning with the four beat corkscrew helps,, standing, do your low circles,,raise them up and turn your body 180 degrees,, low circles,,back up turn another 180...repeat as desired.

I usually drop down to one knee with the horizontal buzzsaw and try to get it as close to the ground as I can too, but the lower I get it seems the weaker I get... oh well time to hit the gym I guess but once it's down low I find switching whatever hand is on top is a nice little pattern. Mots has a clip on this, the left hand on top,->right hand on top-> left hand on top,,,,without switching direction of spin. After this I usually switch to that little " corkscrew in front of you" move while standing up,, this can be opened up ,,,Taming Fire has a clip,,,but I find myself loosing strength and control here too. dnace around a little with this one, or at least try to,,,like I do,,, ass shakers,,now's your chance. To get out of this I bring the poi back together to the little corkscrew and turn 90 degrees to my left into a short chain weave for a few seconds, and if the poi gods are willing ,,,the buzzsaw weave. A bit of forward spinning to unwrap the chains from my hands,,,and back to normal.

I'm still trying to figure out if the horizontal butterfly buzzsaw is worth working on and what to do with it...any suggestions?

What else? oh yea, exiting the split time corkscrew, easy as long as I turn my body 90 degrees into either forwards or backwards spinning, I usually go for the forwards weave but if I blow the transition I find the low turn is a great was to regain control of my planes

I know this is nothing new, and it's not tech,


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:Written by: Rev

1- take forward bf... take the right hand over the left and bring it to the inner plane.. now twist your hands around clockwise (like the bottom of a corkscrew).. as the left hand comes over the right bring it back into the ttn for a beat.. and then twist back the other way..






hey.. that will help you work into corkscrews from butterflies.. you can get a right hand or left hand lead from a forward butterfly that leads inot a bottom of a cork and a right hand or left hand lead from a reverse that leads into the bottom of a cork... there are 4 other ways.. but they are from the inner plane (between face and arms)...they can all be done from the butterfly without going into the other planes, but you'll adapt to that once you get a bit mroe practiced with the inner plane timings.. at least imo..

its a bit harder to get from a cork to a butterfly.. whihc is why in the post where I made this comment (and obviosly in the comment.. I talk about how to bring it back so you can practice just the transitions in a nice little movement.. makes a nicelooking bf weave type thing then you do one half the thread on the left and the other half on the right and the cork part in between but I digress..

the point is to think of the fact that your hands end up in certain degree positions.. a ttn does liek a 2-3bt weave (1rst degree crossover) and a 4bt ttn does like a 4-5bt weave(2nd degree crossover) so anytime your handws are twisted up.. just start twisting them the other way.. and you'll swing right into same direction from whatever you were doing.. the harder plane forcing comes when going same direction into a bf

hope that helps some.. though it was already up there.. without clarification though..


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Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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Dut
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

lurker
Location: Nashville, TN

Total posts: 380
Posted:if you push/pull the buttefly planes through each other so you're doing a continuous outside butterfly airwrap thing, the poi are essentially tangling in corkscrew weave and untangling wall plane butterfly continuously. is this something you guys have played with much? i just figured out how to do this from 4 beat butterfly in a continuous turning butterfly airwrap weave fashion this week. wink all the air wraps are technically corckscrews either upward or downward, or at least have the ability to be if you pull them apart with that intent. it's very closely related to the corckscrew weave -> windmill butterfly move (which is the same as the wall plane weave -> corkscrew butterfly move, etc for all 90 degree changes, i guess). only this is on both sides of an airwrap and using the weave turn instead of over the head (for now).

horizontal butterfly has always been my favorite underdog family. just do a corkscrew butterfly weave in both directions to start (floor -> ceiling -> floor -> ...). you will not see anyone doing this on any video i know of tho. then work into turning and anything else you can do with a butterfly. there are lots of good horizontal body wraps you see online... umm. insides aren't much harder than the vertical versions either. what else do i usually see??:

same time forward butterfly double leg wrap - to behind the head reverse butterfly (longarmed 'angel wings' version works too) - to a double leg split jump over the floor plane reverse butterfly. (technically there's prolly a carry or two in there, but i don't count those).
^^ This is the only floor plane butterflying i usually see. it's a shame too. that and long-arm crucifix horizontal stuff.

stout - horizontal buzzsaw butterfly is good for wrapping one side of your horizontal buzzsaw weave, getting into horizontal butterfly hyperloops, etc.

-- dut


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Try to find out how to get there without timing break. Hind: wraps,catches, stills :].
BTB, hyperloops, TTN and many variation there. Enjoy :]


POI THEO(R)IST

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Thanks Rev, actually in retrospect it was there, I just didn't understand it. I downloaded your split+threading videos, and managed to work out the bf to corkscrew transition, in both directions. I managed this indoors with short sock poi meaning that as soon as I started to go up with the corkscrew, I had to stop due to lack of ceiling height but I'll put the effort into the other half this afternoon. But a bf to corkscrew was one of those things I just didn't think was possible.

I'll keep working on that horizontal butterfly buzzsaw then, but the buzzsaw weave in a horizontal plane,,,again another pattern I didn't think possible,,,thaks


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Kyle McLean
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Kyle McLean

Living it up
Location: Brisbane/Berlin

Total posts: 364
Posted:Hmmm, my poi have been pretty neglected for the last year or so (too much time playing with silly sticks), but I seem to recall enjoying playing in these planes. Individual moves aside, the main difference I find is that it is so much easier to introduce body movment in the same plane as the poi.

Contact without dance is like sex without wiggling.
A) it does feel as good
B) it does not look as good on film

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:Written by: stout

Thanks Rev, actually in retrospect it was there, I just didn't understand it.



well I thought I'd try to clarify what I was saying.. but at the end, wasnt sure if my clarification made any mroe sense then the orginal post.. so I wasnt holding out much hope.. glad it made a difference... wink


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Well I admit I was being slightly provoking in starting this thread but I do feel that there's very little discussion of these planes here and it's nice to see so many ideas being discussed smile Once I've got a little bit more time to get on with spinning I've got plenty of ideas to work on biggrin

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:i'm with mr x here.
i too have an unexplained dislike of horizontal spinning, especially if i'm the one doing it.

however, i do have one thing to thank the floor/ceiling/lid plane for:
one day, i was standing in front of the london eye waiting for all the jugglers to turn up and protest the illegal war on iraq.
i was idly spinning poi and palying with horizontal buzzsaw hyperloops (top to bottom) which i had just recently worked out.
someone noticed and came and said 'hello' and that was the first time i met that mineiro(b) bloke.

since then, i haven't really spun poi in the horizontal plane wink

using long poi to make cones was the only thing i ever really enjoyed in this plane and i guess the fact that they were cones meant that really my planes were just crap and it was only horizontal in the loosest sense.

horizontal with sticks i like a bit more but this is poi moves so i'll be quiet now.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:I figure crap horizontal planes are ok,,,as long as you know they're crap. I've seen lots of corkscrews spun at a 45 degree angle, and I don't think they look that bad.

Try a horizontal corkscrew,,, bend it to 45 degrees ,,,bend it back.

With sticks,,I find the palm spin to be an excellent way to keep my horizontal planes, horizontal it sure lets me know if I'm going off on any strange angles.


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Vixen
SILVER Member since Jan 2004

Vixen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Oxfordshire/Wiltshire

Total posts: 3276
Posted:I dont suppose anyone fancies doing a vid on it do they??? as much as i try i still find it hard trying to understand written explanations of moves. xxx

tHeReS gOoD aNd EvIl iN EaCh InDiViDuAl fIrE, iDeNtIfIeS nEeDs AnD fEeDs OuR dEsIrEs.

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