Forums > Social Discussion > the power of the mind - controlling body and influencing the universe

Login/Join to Participate
Page: 1234
ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:so before i even get started i just want to put a warning of sorts in as i know alot of people took offense to some of the views offered in the hotties thread, so if the concept of being responsible for your life and being able to influence the events that occur in your life offends you please stop reading because its not my intention to offend anyone simply to discuss ideas and concepts



to believe one thing is to disbelieve the opposite, this limits your perception of the world, so please suspend your beleifs and disbeleifs to entertain the ideas that unfold within this thread



the mind and what its capable is something that particularly fascinates me, one of my personal goals this year is to learn firewalking. the goal behind this thread is to hear peoples personal experiences and ideas relating to the power of the mind and its influence on the body and surrounding universe. if you disagree or have a different opinion to one that is offered please quote the text that you disagree with and offer a reason as to why you disagree



things to bear in mind when reading this thread

1. all scientific human knowledge is based on observations which carries with it the possibility of human errors and assumptions (edited to add scientific in to clarify smile)

2. human perception is a limited range of all the information (ie infrared and ultraviolet light) that exists

3. the commonly accepted truth was once that the world was flat however this does not make it true

4. concepts are conveyed through language, language is based on an individuals life experiences as such meanings of words can vary from person to person



at this point in time i am of the opinion that the mind regulates all aspects of the body via the brain. here are some quotes from experimental findings from the book Best Evidence by Michael Schmicker,



"Researchers at the famed Menninger Foundation in Kansas tested one Indian yogi who could, at will, produce with his mind an 11 degree Fahrenheit difference between the left and right sides of the same palm, with one side turning pink from heat and the other turning gray from cold."



"a man with no yogic training who demonstrated the ability to voluntarily stop his heart -- to produce cardiac arrest -- on demand. EKG tests showed his heartbeat did indeed disappear completely. (As he began to faint from lack of blood, the subject would take a deep breath and revive himself)."



"In 1981, Benson and a group of researchers from the Harvard Medical School instrumented three Tibetan monks in India practicing a form of meditation called Tummo. The monks could take a blanket soaked in cold water, wrap it around themselves, and sit in the snow on a mountain top in a meditative trance. In the Harvard tests, the monks meditated for 55 minutes in an unheated, cold room, using their minds to raise their internal body temperature... All three monks produced dramatic body temperature changes. One 50-year old monk was able to raise the temperature of his toes by 15 degrees Fahrenheit; another 59-year old monk raised his finger and toe temperatures 11 and 12 degrees Fahrenheit respectively, and raised the overall temperature of the room he was meditating in by 2.7 degrees Fahrenheit."



"Using hypnosis, researchers are able to produce real, physical blisters, bruises and skin inflammations on test subjects simply with words"



"Documented clinical studies have shown the placebo effect has successfully relieved or cured hay fever, coughing, insomnia and sleep disorders, colds, headaches, diabetes, peptic ulcers, seasickness, and various kinds of pain including angina pectoris; reduced obesity and urinary incontinence; matched the effectiveness of anti-arthritic pills in treating the symptoms of arthritis and the effectiveness of chemical anti-depressants in treating depression; and treated anxiety. Placebos can speed up or slow down a heartbeat rate; alter moods and perceptions, produce observable calm or its opposite, nervousness; and even produce feelings of euphoria."



"Researchers say a doctor's diagnosis usually sets a patient's mind visualizing the outcome predicted by the doctor"



so if a dr tells you that something is the way it is and you believe them then often thats the way it will be.



my current thoughts on the working of the universe are



1. there is an energy connection between every entity in existence, the stronger your relationship with the entity the stronger the connection

2. the natural state of life is growth but it exists in two states growth and the cycle of stagnation death and decay

3. we exist and both individuals and as a collective (kind of like the internet all interconnected in different ways)

4. as individual we exist as the subconscious, conscious and higher self

5. the subconscious is programmed by our lifes experiences to survive (this can be unprogrammed) not all of the instincts of the subconscious are healthy though eg running away from problems to avoid them

6. the conscious mind is the you bit thats thinking now

7. the higher self is the part that communicates with the rest of the collective and regulates things like making your nails grow.

8. you can draw events into your life to help you grow throught your higher self

9. the conscious mind goes through lots of different thoughts so you have to make it very clear to the higher self what you want, also some of the subconsciouses learnt behaviour are contradictory to growth and self sabotage growth the maintain a feeling of safety even if its not a happy safety

10. the collective responds in a kind of survial of the fitest kind of way so if u want something really bad (and dont have conflicting learnt things in your subconscious) it will bring events into your life "coincidences"

EDITED_BY: ben-ja-men (1109317272)


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

Delete Topic

jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: FireTom

May you please be as kind to backup with evidence that prooves the study to be erraneous, beyond the mere proclamation that it's crap until proven otherwise?


This is where burden of proof come in. You're making a fairly extraordinary claim, so it is up to you to prove it. You can believe it to be true if you like, but don't expect anyone to go spending money on it any time soon. Like Sagan said - extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and this ain't that.

I'm actualy quite disappointed in people who don't question studies like this. You don't seem to be bothered that they only show a tiny portion of the crime rate graph. Aren't you interested what happened with the crime rate before and after the study?


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Delete

ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


 Written by: FireTom


Would you agree that the minds holds powers beyond what "hardbacked science" is able to explain?


Does it? Like what? Who says? Why are they so consistantly incapable of demonstating it?




as you have obviously read the first post to this thread can you please enlighten me how the following are explained by science

 Written by: ben-ja-men


here are some quotes from experimental findings from the book Best Evidence by Michael Schmicker,

"Researchers at the famed Menninger Foundation in Kansas tested one Indian yogi who could, at will, produce with his mind an 11 degree Fahrenheit difference between the left and right sides of the same palm, with one side turning pink from heat and the other turning gray from cold."

"a man with no yogic training who demonstrated the ability to voluntarily stop his heart -- to produce cardiac arrest -- on demand. EKG tests showed his heartbeat did indeed disappear completely. (As he began to faint from lack of blood, the subject would take a deep breath and revive himself)."

"In 1981, Benson and a group of researchers from the Harvard Medical School instrumented three Tibetan monks in India practicing a form of meditation called Tummo. The monks could take a blanket soaked in cold water, wrap it around themselves, and sit in the snow on a mountain top in a meditative trance. In the Harvard tests, the monks meditated for 55 minutes in an unheated, cold room, using their minds to raise their internal body temperature... All three monks produced dramatic body temperature changes. One 50-year old monk was able to raise the temperature of his toes by 15 degrees Fahrenheit; another 59-year old monk raised his finger and toe temperatures 11 and 12 degrees Fahrenheit respectively, and raised the overall temperature of the room he was meditating in by 2.7 degrees Fahrenheit."

"Using hypnosis, researchers are able to produce real, physical blisters, bruises and skin inflammations on test subjects simply with words"

"Documented clinical studies have shown the placebo effect has successfully relieved or cured hay fever, coughing, insomnia and sleep disorders, colds, headaches, diabetes, peptic ulcers, seasickness, and various kinds of pain including angina pectoris; reduced obesity and urinary incontinence; matched the effectiveness of anti-arthritic pills in treating the symptoms of arthritis and the effectiveness of chemical anti-depressants in treating depression; and treated anxiety. Placebos can speed up or slow down a heartbeat rate; alter moods and perceptions, produce observable calm or its opposite, nervousness; and even produce feelings of euphoria."

"Researchers say a doctor's diagnosis usually sets a patient's mind visualizing the outcome predicted by the doctor"



 Written by: FireTom


May you please be as kind to backup with evidence that prooves the study to be erraneous, beyond the mere proclamation that it's crap until proven otherwise?


dont hold your breath as thats about as far as jeffs debating skills go


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

Delete

jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:For those who didn't follow the Computers taking over the world thread:



Ben claimed that robots could never have free will as a book he read by a psychologist claimed that quantum mechanical effects in a chemical in the human brain were required for free-will. (Ben's claim above comes from a book too. Ben seems to believe everything he reads in books)



I responded that

A: The chemicals in question didn't actually function in the way described.

B: Even if they did, current theories on Quantum mechanics predict the effect would breakdown.

C: There wasn't any scientific evidence for Quantum mechanical effect in the human brain.



Then MCP pointed out you could just rig up a quantum system to a computer, making Ben entire claim moot, and thus winning the internet.



So call me b*stard, but basically I won't believe in magic till you cast a lv. 3 fireball thank you very much.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:No Jeff, it's always easy to stand there and say: "Repeat this miracle, to proove that you can cause a miracle! Unless you do, it's an isolated event and not real!"

It's always easier to clip somebodies elses wings than learning how to fly yourself, but you do not need to get defensive on your argumentation skills: I am not making a fairly extraordinary claim - you simply haven't experienced the same things as I have (and others). I not only had precognition of events and telepathic/ -kinetic experiences - I know that my thoughts affect me. And by affecting me, they clearly affect my surroundings (the least in a domino-effect).

Example: I have negative thoughts, because of whatever. I frown and give a negative reply to somebody (who is in a good mood) - without much of a reason. Clearly this person will be negatively affected... That's obvious and doesn't need proof.

As I said - and I will not let this turn into a completely pointless debate - I do NOT promote commercial institutions, who clearly do put their own benefit far higher than that of mankind.

How can you just claim that "there wasn't any scientific evidence for Quantum mechanical effect in the human brain" - how do you just put this forward? I say that - as everything else in the world - the human mind is affected by and bound to the laws of quantum mechanics.

As the smallest of the smallest elements and parts of this universe are devoting to the laws of quantum physics, so must the human brain. Or to put it this way: how can the (human) brain be excluded from quantum mechanics and physics, when everything else is bound to it?

I do hold my experience on how I can affect others with my thoughts only and this is nothing extraordinary. In fact it happens every day and if you're opening your senses, you will find out that this is reality.

Being 15 yrs I participated in school sports and was able to increase my result by simply sitting down and visualizing the blood pumping more and more through the veins and muscles.

Now you may put this in the corner of esotherical cowspoo - personally I don't mind, but as long as I can't see any reasonable effort of you, constructively participating in this discussion I will not pay as much attention to what you will have to say. (That's not "ignoring" - don't mix it up, please)

Simply because I am re-discovering that gift of awareness towards myself and my environment again and it's still far too fragile.

I promise, that at the time I am able to proove you, that thoughts and "mental powers" do in fact have a far higher impact than natural scientists are ready to believe, I will happily let you know. I'm afraid that at this point - to me - it's something that needs to be experienced, rather than explained. wink smile


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Domino
SILVER Member since May 2004

UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK

Total posts: 757
Posted:Hurrah, time for an agrument about Scientific Meathod?

Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

Delete

jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:All those who believe in psycho-kinesis raise my hand. ubblol

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Wiki on Pseudoscience

Wiki on Uri Geller

SkepDic on Geller

I'm not trying to ridicule this thread, or indicate that what Geller does is actually psycho - kinesis

I just happened to experience forms of telepathy and other supernatural events myself - or to put it in moderate words: such (repeated and) strage "coincidences", that I simply can't call them "coincidental" anymore...

All I can do is to advise anyone to inform ones-self and verify in her/ his very own experience (with as much preoccupational doubt as possible)... If things STILL happen, then maybe there is more between heaven and earth than natural scientists are able to explain...

Thats is what's called a phenomenon ...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Yah, I know rolleyes this is "phenomenal":


Non-Https Image Link


and so is this:


Non-Https Image Link


wink tongue


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:What's the practical difference between yourself and someone who has only fooled themselves into thinking they have powers?

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Delete

Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Life's made up of many, many coincidences, the trick is to accept them as such, and not try to read anything "special" into them. Like when you walk under a streetlight, and it goes out. Do you really think that you're mere presence caused it?

Really??


Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Who said that? Do not put words in my mouth, please.

I'm not even saying that Geller really holds "powers" - never seen him bending spoons in my presence. I only used him as an example for the mere possibility that such powers might exist.

You may reread my post, I am talking about YOU verifying it for yourself, with the highest possible level of doubt.

I am not mystifying such events, coincidences - call it what you like - and I am neither spending my bucks on people who try to tell me my future, nor others who "initiate" me into "yogic flying", or "Transcendental Meditation".

Certainly such "coincidences" happen on a daily basis, and I am accepting them as such. I have no clue of how they really work, or how they are caused - they simply happen. Ultimately the coincidence of my birth will match up with that of my death - there is nothing to be marvelled about.

Happy now?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm using a fairly common example of a coincidence where people think that it's something special. We've all had it happen.

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:I was not exclusively referring to you, Stout. However I find it increasingly difficult to explain what I am referring to someone, who has not experienced what I have (amongst others)...

To quote one of the most accredited natural scientists of modern times:

"There are two ways to live your life - one is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is a miracle."


Non-Https Image Link


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:A.E. could have been referring to rote learning there. I agree.

Tom. I know what you're getting at, but until "it" happens to me, repeatedly, then I will remain a skeptic. it mainly stems from experiencing people who claim to possess special insights, having lives that are just as "screwed up" as everybody else's.

I'm not dismissing the mind over body idea, however I am dismissing the mind over matter concept, Like Uri Geller.

It's a faith issue ( IMO )


Delete

jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:So, what is the practical difference between yourself and someone who has only fooled themselves into thinking they have powers?

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:"The eye of the beholder" (I'm not ignoring you, Jeff, but your pathetically and pathological "anti". There are only very few posts of yours I am able to agree with - and no I doubt that even according to Heisenberg we wouldn't be making love right now)... wink

And I would like to oppose and proove that not only the "mind over body", but also the "mind over matter" thingy works. We have living examples - there is nothing magical about it, it's merely a matter of training. One leads to the other. By the time you have conquered your mind, you are able to control your body and the next step is to control matter. Maybe and most likely not to the extent that you'll be able to turn lead to gold, by simply meditating upon it. But I never claimed that.

I am not just talking about that guy, who smashes 50 glass bottles, picks up a big woman, puts her on his back and walks barefeet over the sharp edged sherds.

clocketycluck

don't try this at home

Can't be bothered to link it all for you. Unfortunately there is no (peered and scientifically examined) video of the monk, hitting a balloon with a needle - through a glass slate...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: FireTom



Can't be bothered to link it all for you. Unfortunately there is no (peered and scientifically examined) video of the monk, hitting a balloon with a needle - through a glass slate...



Doesn't David blaine do that one?

He can levitate as well smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:I can bend spoons, make coins appear behind people's ears and walk over hot coals without injury. I also had mate in school who could do quite a few of the Shoalin stunts. I'd better tell him our next step is controling matter itself. wink

Now, if I may repeat my question: What is the practical difference between yourself and someone who's only fooling themselves?


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:@ Jeff: Wrong thread, Jeff...



What is the purpose of your question? If you're not having anything to add to the topic, why do you bother posting here? Nothing you even remotely constructive or informative you have to contribute - so far.



Knock knock....



@ OWD: So it's all trickery and mockery? All fake? Is thaat what you want to indicate?



Am I really THAT tired, or are you two simply crypting?

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1161521567)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:something ive tried since starting this thread is the whole walking over hot coals, theres alot of different opinions about it and something i want to try a few more times to make my mind up about. a few years ago the state football team did it as a pre season team building thing and they got really badly burnt (awesome publicity stunt that rolleyes).

so my experience of it was that i was quite sceptical as to how valid the 2 hours of theory/raising energy state/meditation/etc before was, im not convinced either way. I was really suprised as to the fear i experienced just before doing it, ive done stuff like sky diving and not really blinked but this was quite different (all the stuff before was about linking the walk into a fear/something that was holding us back in life). During the walk i said the phrase over and over cold snow cold snow cold snow (part of it is not looking down to send a visual feedback to over write that message)

the theory behind all the background is that when someone talks about your favourite food and goes on and on to the point where you can almost taste it you are eliciting a memory in the brain and generating the experince purely from your thoughts. After the walk i was expecting my feet to be really hot but it was the exact opposite my feet where freezing cold (admittedly it was done in winter, that said when you stand in front of a fire then move away you feel your body cool down) to the point that i had to go and put my shoes and socks back on, it wasnt until a good 40 minutes later that i felt the feeling on the warmth from the walk on my feet much like you get the night after getting really bad sunburn.

im not convinced one way or the other stuff like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewalking
doesnt quite explain the feeling i got after, when u get sunburnt u feel the heat go in, with the firewalking it was kind of like the heat went in but the focusing of thoughts on cold feet over wrote the input to be experienced as walking on snow.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

Delete

Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Jeff does raise a valid point, but maybe it only takes a fellow skeptic like me to recognize it.

Yea, firewalking...I saw a piece on Discovery Channel about a physics professor in Pennsylvania who teaches firewalking as part of his class ( it's a module on specific heat capacity ) and right off the top he explains the concepts to his students while debunking the "mysteries" behind the act. So far, he states, none of his students have been burned, see it's all in how you put your foot down,,ie. don't shuffle

Same sort of thing with walking on glass, it's really a trick. It's all in carefully arranging the glass ( under the guise of making the bed even ) but what the magician is really doing is trying to turn the sharp bits of glass over to maximize the exposure of the curved, smooth outside of the bottles they all use. Next time you see one of these guys setting up, pay special attention to what they do with the bottle necks.

Point is,, I believed in the mystic side of this whole mind over matter for years and when I actually tried to explore the idea with people who were "gifted", I found nothing but disappointment both with myself, and with those who were trying to "enlighten" me.

Maybe the problems were with my motivations, I was thinking that If I could develop my telekinetic powers, I could clean up in Vegas.


Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:With all due respect, but I do not think that Jeff is raising anything but his ego on this one. I could rephrase it: "What is the practical difference between you and someone who fooled himself by reckoning he knows anything?"

The entire: "cleaning up in Vegas" is not what "powers" are about and for - I agree with you on motivational problems.

Point is that if you even hold a fractional bit of experience, you do not need a furtune to be happy, as this is one essential thing in life I have learned: Money is not the answer (to (all) problems).

I have met people I would call "rich" - not wealthy, but "rich" and having had the luck to inherit some money I do know the problem first hand: Money is not going to do anything for you. In fact it might even become a problem itself.

So it's all trickery? That's what you want to tell me (Stout , OWD and Jeff)?

Have been very much of a sceptic myself and I still consider myself to be one - all I'm doing is raising questions, since I have had to experience things that have been showing me that there's more to life, than cold solid steel being cold solid steel.

Ben, in the walking on fire thing were you instructed on HOW to place your feet on the coals?

Stout, I will be in Chiang Mai (for massage purposes) early next year - I certainly keep you posted on the barefoot on broken glass thingy


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted: Written by: stout

Yea, firewalking...I saw a piece on Discovery Channel about a physics professor in Pennsylvania who teaches firewalking as part of his class ( it's a module on specific heat capacity ) and right off the top he explains the concepts to his students while debunking the "mysteries" behind the act. So far, he states, none of his students have been burned, see it's all in how you put your foot down,,ie. don't shuffle



i agree that the key to not getting burnt is how you walk, however the part that i found interesting was feeling like i was walking on snow instead of a hot bitchamen road. to me this is where the power of the mind in shaping your experience comes in and it starts to get interesting



 Written by: stout

Point is,, I believed in the mystic side of this whole mind over matter for years and when I actually tried to explore the idea with people who were "gifted", I found nothing but disappointment both with myself, and with those who were trying to "enlighten" me.



belief and disbelief is a dangerous thing, if you believe something then you disbelieve the opposite and filter the world accordingly, suspending both belief and disbelief to entertain ideas imho is the way to find insight.



 Written by: FireTom

Ben, in the walking on fire thing were you instructed on HOW to place your feet on the coals?

we practised walking before doing it so that we had a good pace and how to put our mind elsewhere and filter out the whole walking on hot coals.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

Delete

Circus Midget
SILVER Member since May 2005

Circus Midget

newbie
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Total posts: 45
Posted:This thread is doing my head in! So many questions!

Do you think there is an actual 'real' reality that can't be changed, and it's just the fact that we all happen to be experiencing it subjectively that makes it seem like we can control it?

And what alternative is there to belief or disbelief? Are we tricking our brain into believing that we can walk on hot coals? Or are we just discovering that we could do it all along? How can we gain insight into the nature of the world if we're simply creating our own reality, that technically isn't real? It's nice to think the world is what we want it to be, but maybe it is how it is regardless of how we percieve it?

Did anything of what I just said make sense?


"It was me! I was the turkey all along!"

Delete

Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:But why would my cleaning up in Vegas motivations really be a problem? I was planning on taking a ummm, percentage of my winnings and buying a piece of land and a bunch of those tiny modular homes and setting up a community based on sustainability. At least there was an altruistic component to my plan?

Did "the cosmic forces" judge me unworthy of insight nonetheless ?

True, money is not the solution to all problems, but the lack of money is the cause of many.

Yep, at this stage I'm saying it's all trickery.

Interesting link on the walking on broken glass, totally flakey, but I suppose that's ok if you're into that sort of thing. I doubt the healing claims they're making in that article would even be legal here. Interestingly enough, it was in Bangkok ( that park along the river where everyone spins toys) that I learned about walking on glass from a Canadian tourist who used it as part of his busking act. I teach him poi, he tells me "secrets". Like how to fake that you're really putting effort into the act, when you step on a section of the bed with no, sharp bits poking up.

It would me interesting to see if the Chaing Mai crowd could walk across a bed of glass made entirley from the bottoms of broken bottles, you know upright and jagged, with no chance of rolling over onto the smooth side when stepped on.

Benjamin, the thing about firewalking, is you're not actually "walking"on the hot coals themselves ( well technically you are, but ). What happens is that the coals cool off instantly on contact with your foot ( the specific heat capacity difference ) then instantly form an insulating layer of ash that heats up again quickly once your foot is removed. Thats the trick.

Try walking on red hot steel, instead of ashes, You'll see what I mean.

Suspension of both belief and disbelief? one in the same really, but yes, it may help ( it sure helps the movie industry ) but isn't belief really what this is all about? The belief in mind over matter.


Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: FireTom



@ OWD: So it's all trickery and mockery? All fake? Is thaat what you want to indicate?





It was a joke smile

But yes, i think when phenomena are passed off as being other than conjury/sleight-of-hand; yet conjurers can demonstrate the exact same phenomena without claiming supernatural/extraordinary powers, then, IMO, there is an issue with the validity of such demos as stand-alone evidence.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Thanks verrry much indeed for educating me.

Good point, Stout - if all the broken, sharply edged parts were facing up... But cleaning up in Vegas, buying land and setting up "micro appartments" - umm I do not have to dispense my personal opinion on that part, do I? wink I'm occasionally playing the lottery myself, well knowing what the odds are and trying to bribe the Universe as in: "I will buy a home/ farm and sponsor all those artists who can't find affordable space..." rolleyes

But all being trickery, huh? Meaning - for example - that all those shaolin performances are simply fake? Something in me is resenting to this - but then maybe I'm one of those "wanna-believers". Did you see that old man doing his one-finger stand? Certainly he's got a rope, attached to his feet, or the room actually is upside down - thus meaning in reality he's pointing at the roof or the wall....

I'm certain that street magicians and illuionists are working with pretty simple tricks ("I can read your mind, think of a number between 1 and 50 - they have to be odd numbers and they can't be the same number, think fast..... Is it..... 37?") rolleyes Unfortunately I missed the levitation part on Discovery channel last night...

Now coming to an interesting point: If we can trick our minds that we're able to walk on hot coals without getting burned and it's happening - what's the difference?

Circus Midget: Your making much sense here. What's the difference if I believe I can walk upon water and it's happening - for only the belief? Meaning that I create my reality every day and by merely changing my conception of "good and evil" I already shift focus and am able to alter my response-ability to the events that occur.

The world around me is still the same as the day before - hence it changed quality.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: FireTom



But all being trickery, huh? Meaning - for example - that all those shaolin performances are simply fake? Something in me is resenting to this - but then maybe I'm one of those "wanna-believers". Did you see that old man doing his one-finger stand? Certainly he's got a rope, attached to his feet, or the room actually is upside down - thus meaning in reality he's pointing at the roof or the wall....

Now coming to an interesting point: If we can trick our minds that we're able to walk on hot coals without getting burned and it's happening - what's the difference?





A lot of it isn't outright 'trickery'.

When people walk on hot coals they're not trying to deceive or con people.

It's just that the human foot is capable of crossing burning coals without any mind control other than that of placing the foot correctly and preaparing the coals properly.

That's just a simple physical fact, proven by scientists who have performed the feat without any of the meditation/ritual that usually is cited as 'explaining' the phenomena.

Some practitioners need to believe that this perfectly ordinary/explainable phenomena is actually mysterious- they're not consciously trying to trick anyone.

Same is true for shaolin monks and feats of 'chi'- others have duplicated those feats without claims of using chi.

 Written by: FireTom



I'm certain that street magicians and illuionists are working with pretty simple tricks ("I can read your mind, think of a number between 1 and 50 - they have to be odd numbers and they can't be the same number, think fast..... Is it..... 37?") rolleyes Unfortunately I missed the levitation part on Discovery channel last night...





IMO that's a bit of disservice to the art of conjury.

Yes, some of them are a bit duff, but, take one who's really good at their art and i defy you, or any non-magician, to explain how they accomplish some of their feats.

They are experts at deceit, and that is why some of them are so very good at exposing hoaxes.

For example, Houdini detested the practices of fake mediums and often turned up at seances undercover, he would then expose the mechanisms and machinery they used to produce supposed 'spirt tapping' noises, or ectoplasm etc.

None of this proves that all such stuff is fake or based on misunderstanding.

But, given that so much of it has been proved to be so, no-one should be surprised if sceptics ask for far more solid evidence than simple demonstrations.

Lastly, and on a slightly different tack, it seems part of human nature to automatically link these kind of acts as being a sign of great spiritual progress.

It's important to point out that the abiltiy to perform extraordinary feats, is no indication of genuine spiritual acheivement.

Even if a person could genuinely levitate, it would indicate nothing about his/her spiritual progress/worth/integrity or make them a person to be 'followed'.

(I know that no-ones made claims on this thread about such feats equating to spiritual worth, but i think it's worth mentioning as it's a common underlying assumption.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:I'm being criticised for being arrogant/negative/unconstructive. All of these are true, but they don't address the points.

What I ask is for a weight of evidence even approching the enormity of what either of the two propose, rather than anecdotes or tales. The world is full of charlatans and conditions which can make an otherwise sane person percieve something which isn't there. Any statistician can tell you that the world is also full of amazing coincidences because of the huge number of interacting parts - essentially million to one chances crop up nine times out of ten simply because there are trillions of million to one chances.

This is why a claim should be repeatedly tested, and never taken on the weight of an anectdote, a personal "experience", or the authority of a book on the paranormal.

You, are of course, freely able to ignore what I'm suggesting on the matter (for now wink). But if you intend to change the world, people generally respond better to arguements backed up with rigourus scientific testing, than to arguements made from personal conviction.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:@ Stout: please do not get me wrong, I am not meaning this negative or such - hug



 Written by:



But why would my cleaning up in Vegas motivations really be a problem? I was planning on taking a ummm, percentage of my winnings and buying a piece of land and a bunch of those tiny modular homes and setting up a community based on sustainability. At least there was an altruistic component to my plan?



Did "the cosmic forces" judge me unworthy of insight nonetheless ?







 Written by:

Who do you expect to provide "adequate" housing to the needy ? Me? (been there, done that, got screwed into bankruptcy because of it)







I have similar contradictions (and reckon that many of us have, but who's ready to admit that?) - maybe the universal forces are regarding me "not to be worthy" (yet) due to this ?



thankx guys - I really love all of your input. No questino that many roads lead to a similar destination.



I rephrase what a gifted person once said: "enlightenment" is not like making a cookie. As humans individuality is so divers, there simply can't be a readymade answer, a recipe to everybody. Meaning that even by following exactly what .... Jesus did (put in the name of any other spiritual person) - most unlikely one will come to experience the exact same thing...



[edit] I also appreciate your input, Jeff and I repeatedly approved, that there are too many, taking advantage of wanna-believers. Further I was putting it very clear that everybody has to verify for ones-self with the utmost scepticism.



Besides I do not condemn your arrogance/negativity/unconstructiveness - I simply can't always pay as much attention to it, as I would like to.

Further I's really love to see a little more humble/positive/constructive input from your side - you appear out of balance wink hug

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1161609060)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Page: 1234

Similar Topics

Using the keywords [power mind controlling body influencing universe] we found the following similar topics.
1. Learn > POI > Tracers > Co-planer body horizontal body tracer *help/resource
2. Forums > the power of the mind - controlling body and influencing the universe [115 replies]
3. Learn > Rope Dart > Body Wraps > Basic Body Wrap *help/resource right  then bring it around your body by moving it under the right armpit...
4. Learn > Rope Dart > Neck wraps > Upper body *help/resource the reason why it s called an upper body neck wrap is because of the use of...
5. Learn > Diabolo > Basics > Around your body basics *help/resource

     Show more..